On Apr 25, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Henk <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote: Thanks. This move took almost a year from start to finish. Most of it involved getting everything packed in a number of storage units. I quickly discovered that "palletizing" made the job *much* easier. ;-) I still have to finish setting up the racks in the "upstairs" so that I can unpack up there and move a bunch of the stuff out of the "basement". I haven't solved the problem of getting stuff to/from the "upstairs" yet. They're against the walls to free up space. Once I have power to them and start getting things going again, I may move them out "some" but they'll probably still stay closer to the walls than the site prep guides indicate. I have my own website to make it easier. I think there's fliker and the like but I've never used them. ;-) TTFN - Guy

On Apr 25, 2014, at 1:28 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote: Yea, I only have 15. ;-) I think I'm better with RL01/2s. I think I have ~20 or so of those. ;-) It was a requirement when we were looking for the new house we bought last year. TTFN - Guy

On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:32 PM, Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> wrote: The building already had a 40A circuit coming in. I decided that wasn't near enough, so I had the power coming into the property upgraded to 400A. 200A was already going to the house, so I split it at the intermediate poll (where the meter is attached) to bring 200A to the shop. This was the max I could do without going to a complete separate meter which would require a whole lot more permits and $s from everyone involved. ;-) I put in a 3.5/5T dual speed AC unit and had everything insulated. I'm running a bunch of 30A circuits for the equipment (I don't know yet what the final count will be...some will also be 220v to support the 2065 when I convert it turn everything on at once. ;-) TTFN - Guy

On Apr 25, 2014, at 8:54 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: How much power do you need? For a modest price you can get solid state 1phase to 3phase converters ? variable frequency motor drives ? good for up to 3 HP, i.e., about 2 kW. If you need more than that, you can get rotary converters that go much higher. So you don?t need to modify the machine, just add stuff to your electric setup to make the 3phase. People who run metalworking machinery do this routinely, since any lathe or mill of nontrivial size uses a 3 phase motor. paul

On Apr 26, 2014, at 9:39 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote: If you really have that kind of device, it?s probably meant to be hooked up to 3 phase Y, and all you?d have to do is hook each ?phase? to some single phase branch circuit. If it?s delta wired, that may be more problematic since there is no ?neutral?. If it?s a disk drive that wants 3 phase power, like an RP04, presumably it has a 3 phase motor and any sort of motor drive power source will make it happy. If it?s a power supply fed by 3 phase power, such as you would find in a CDC mainframe, you probably do need actual 3 phase power or the ripple may be too high. But if so, it?s not going to be all that picky about waveform. Finally, I think the waveform of a rotary converter is pretty good. It?s basically a rotary converter. ?Static converters? are a different story, those are only barely good enough to spin a 3 phase motor on a good day. But I remember reading articles about 3 phase rotary converter construction and they sounded pretty good. If you need only 2 kW per circuit, solid state converters might be best. I?m not sure what the waveform on those looks like, though; those too are meant for driving motors and they use IGBT converters, probably pulse width modulation, for that. An advantage of the solid state converters is that they can produce a different frequency than what the power company gives you, within limits. For example, 400 Hz 3 phase needed for CDC 6000 series machines can be obtained that way. paul

On Apr 28, 2014, at 4:55 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote: I thought I remembered seeing that. So, apart from not being 400 Hz, that matches the CDC mainframe practice. With 3 phase input the ripple frequency is 6x the mains frequency (so 360 Hz in the US). If you feed the 3 inputs from single phase power, you?d get 120 Hz ripple, and the ripple voltage would be 3x the normal value, which may (or may not) be a problem. I would expect either a rotary or a solid state converter to feed those just fine. Well, a solid state one would if you could get it for that much power. I haven?t seen any single phase input VFDs that go that high (about 5 HP). Rotary converters go that high easily, and much beyond. paul

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: I recommend using 13 separate power supplies with remote sense inputs rather than 3, so that you have proper remote sensing for each DC supply rail. When I looked into that some years back, it was actually less expensive to get ten 5.2V 35A supplies than two 5.2V 175A. 5.2V is within the adjustment range of most 5V switchers that have any adjustment capability, but remote sensing is important because even with the 10-guage power cables there's a nontrivial voltage drop (around 150 mV according to one field service engineer). That doesn't sound like much, but ECL requires much tighter voltage margins than TTL. Of course, without remote sensing you could just try to adjust the supply higher (e.g., 5.35V if the drop is 150mV), if that's within range. If you use fewer, beefier supplies, then you have to make sure that the drop is uniform on each cable fed by the same supply. Similarly, I expect that separate 2V 35A switchers will be less expensive than a 2V 140A. However, if you've found otherwise, I'd be interested to hear what power supply models you've found. The ripple and noise from typical switchers is higher than the ripple from the H760/H761. I'm not sure how much of a problem that will be, but I've been told that DEC used linear regulators specifically for that reason. That's why the replacement regulator I designed uses 12 phases; the 35A current requirement can be satisfied with a single phase, but more phases results in lower ripple, so the output filtering is more effective. Compuserve replaced their power supplies with switchers, but I've never found any information on the models/specifications/performance. Eric

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote: That sounds reasonable. I think most KL10 configurations only actually have nine of the -5.2V supplies, though there's room for a tenth regulator. I'm not sure specifically about the 2065. The 100mV would be no problem for TTL, NMOS, or CMOS, and it would probably be fine for a single-Vee-supply ECL system, but it is very high for a multi-supply system. 10K MECL has worst-case noise margin for logic 1 of only 82mV (Motorola MECL System Design Handbook Fourth Edition, HB205/D, May 1988, chapter 5: Power Distribution). That worst-case analysis is based on an output of a part at Vee(max) and an input of a part at Vee(min). That's exactly the condition you will have for signals crossing of phase. IIRC there's not too much decoupling capacitance on the boards, since they didn't need it. I'm not sure how much of that 1% pk-pk noise to actually expect at the Vee pins of the chips. I don't have enough information to say whether you're likely to have a problem with it or not, but I'd be concerned about it.

On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 9:16 PM, James A. Markevitch <jam at magic.com> wrote: There's a mix. They use twisted pair differential for clocks and a few such things, but the data lines and such are single-ended even across domains. Eric

From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:20 AM The switchers in the 1095 (hey, it's painted blue, not orange) are about 70% efficient. The entire system is powered on a 20A @ 220VAC (3ph) circuit, rather than the 60A @ 220VAC (3ph) circuit required by our 2065. More modern PSUs (these are about 20 years old) would be even better--the ones we use in the PDP-7 and KI-10 are about 90% efficient. Actually, Ian wasn't yet working for the museum when I bought Mike's KL-10, and he never worked on it while he was here. He left several months ago, and we miss him. Best, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Five Hundred Amps? :oO --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" <spacewar at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Progress on new shop

The only thing in the KL10 that needs three-phase (not counting any external peripherals) is the H760/H761 power supply for the ECL. The H760 "raw supply" takes about 7kW of 120/208 three-phase to produce about 12.6V 500A, which the H761 then regulates down to nine or ten -5.2V 35A and four -2.0V 35A supplies for the logic and termination (about 2.1kW). All of the other power supplies in the KL10 are single-phase supplies. The standard wiring distributes those among the three phases. There is a bank of 13 130,000 uF capacitors between the H760 and H761, so it's probably OK for the input to be somewhat noisy. The inrush current to the H760 is hundreds of amps on each phase for more than a second. The mains wiring is 75A/phase. I've got an untested design for a 12-phase 35A switching regulator board using the LTC3731 to replace the -5.2V and -2.0V linear regulators of the H761, which would then still use the H760 and three-phase input, but at much higher efficiency. That's the minimal-modification way to reduce the power requirement. Using a normal buck controller chip as a non-isolated negative buck controller is a bit tricky, since they are all designed for positive use, but I got some technical assistance with the design from a Linear Technology apps engineer, and it checks out in simulation. I'd want to build one and bench test it extensively with a programmable load before I'd actually use it in a KL10. If you didn't want to use three-phase, it would probably be best to replace the entire H760/H761 power supply system with single-phase mains input switchers. I'd reccommend using nine or ten 5.2V 35A and four 2.0V 35A isolated switchers, so that they can be referenced for negative operation. Power supplies with sense inputs are a must since there is non-trivial voltage drop in the cabling. The ECL needs very clean power, which is probably part of the reason DEC used linear regulators. Back then switchers tended to be pretty noisy. I'm not sure whether a typical modern switcher is clean enough. My regulator design uses 12 phases to reduce the ripple.