30 Jul
2000
30 Jul
'00
6:44 a.m.
Greetings,
A short while ago, I just thought of yet another reason to preserve
computer equipment, particularly that which is the most durable.
While doing some research for someone else pertaining to application
service providers (ASPs) - which I don't like, I began thinking of
things mentioned by Sun and Microsoft that give me the creeps: the
thought of programs, applications, operating systems and, worse yet,
one's own data, aacessed by, and stored somewhere on, the Internet,
not locally. A user would have no control over one's files. If
enough people will be foolhardy enough to fall for the marketing hype,
and begin using "network appliances" instead of computers, 10, 20, or
30 years from now, will home computers with local mass storage even be
sold, or be legal to own, for that matter? After all, we know what
mindless sheep most people appear to be when it comes to following the
herd and not thinking for themselves.
BTW, what I've been researching is the danger of the use of ASPs for
medical claims processing, and when one begins digging into this, one
begins to see the commercial and governmental interests involved in
people's medical records, and it's not nice. There's the problem with
non-objective medical information presented by web sites such as
WebMD/Healtheon (which also want to process medical claims as ASPs)
due to conflicts of interest who have advertisers and shareholders to
consider. For those in the US, some may be surprised when they learn
the realities of HCFA and the HIPAA, and how much privacy they stand
to lose by laws promoted by certain politicians (including the
president) as increasing privacy, when they really do just the
opposite - not to mention the temporary moratorium on national IDs for
everyone to be used for medical purposes, ...then there's the work
towards the creation of a national database for medical records. I
won't even begin to touch on such areas as the commercial and
governmental influences involved with the A.M.A. (no wonder many
physicians don't belong to it!) and conflicts of interests that affect
nonpprofit web sites such as Intellihealth (look into its connections
with Aetna, and what Aetna has done to people's health with it's HMOs)
and Medem. Before anyone flames me, please look into this yourself if
you value your health and the confidentiality of your medical
records... then express your concerns to your physician.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
30 Jul
30 Jul
7:17 a.m.
On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:
While doing some research for someone else pertaining to application
service providers (ASPs) - which I don't like, I began thinking of
things mentioned by Sun and Microsoft that give me the creeps: the
thought of programs, applications, operating systems and, worse yet,
one's own data, aacessed by, and stored somewhere on, the Internet,
not locally. A user would have no control over one's files. If
enough people will be foolhardy enough to fall for the marketing hype,
and begin using "network appliances" instead of computers, 10, 20, or
30 years from now, will home computers with local mass storage even be
sold, or be legal to own, for that matter? After all, we know what
mindless sheep most people appear to be when it comes to following the
herd and not thinking for themselves.
Those things do kind of bug me. At least I wouldn't be too happy if
I couldn't get to my files because someone else's server/router/backbone
went down.
"Make personal computers illegal"?!?! Sure, go ahead. It worked so
well with guns and drugs...You can have my PC when you pry my cold
dead fingers off the mouse.
BTW, what I've been researching is the danger of the use of ASPs for
medical claims processing, and when one begins digging into this, one
begins to see the commercial and governmental interests involved in
people's medical records, and it's not nice. There's the problem with
non-objective medical information presented by web sites such as
WebMD/Healtheon (which also want to process medical claims as ASPs)
due to conflicts of interest who have advertisers and shareholders to
consider. For those in the US, some may be surprised when they learn
the realities of HCFA and the HIPAA, and how much privacy they stand
to lose by laws promoted by certain politicians (including the
president) as increasing privacy, when they really do just the
opposite
Privacy/confidentiality, like copyright, is dying. I'm not sure
what, if anything, can be done in the long run.
I mean, one of these days, someone's going to make a machine that
can read other people's thoughts. What will we do then?
31 Jul
31 Jul
8:25 a.m.
OT: Menternetting
I mean, one of these days, someone's going to make
a machine that
can read other people's thoughts. What will we do then?
If you haven't seen 'Zardoz' give it a look.
It's got a second cut on the theme of 'thoughtcrime'
that may be more likely to happen than the '1984' take
on the topic.
John A.
30 Jul
30 Jul
4:02 p.m.
New subject: BIG BROTHER -- Another reason to preserve systems
Hello R.
On 30-Jul-00, you wrote:
Regards
--
Gary Hildebrand
Box 6184
St. Joseph, MO 64506-0184
816-662-2612
or
ghldbrd(a)ccp.com
Greetings,
A short while ago, I just thought of yet another reason to preserve
computer equipment, particularly that which is the most durable.
While doing some research for someone else pertaining to application
service providers (ASPs) - which I don't like, I began thinking of
things mentioned by Sun and Microsoft that give me the creeps: the
thought of programs, applications, operating systems and, worse yet,
one's own data, aacessed by, and stored somewhere on, the Internet,
not locally. A user would have no control over one's files. If
enough people will be foolhardy enough to fall for the marketing hype,
and begin using "network appliances" instead of computers, 10, 20, or
30 years from now, will home computers with local mass storage even be
sold, or be legal to own, for that matter? After all, we know what
mindless sheep most people appear to be when it comes to following the
herd and not thinking for themselves.
Yes I think this last line says it all. Follow Microslop and don't worry,
we'll take good care of you, won't we? (evil grin)
BTW, what I've been researching is the danger of the use of ASPs for
medical claims processing, and when one begins digging into this, one
begins to see the commercial and governmental interests involved in
people's medical records, and it's not nice. There's the problem with
non-objective medical information presented by web sites such as
WebMD/Healtheon (which also want to process medical claims as ASPs)
due to conflicts of interest who have advertisers and shareholders to
consider. For those in the US, some may be surprised when they learn
the realities of HCFA and the HIPAA, and how much privacy they stand
to lose by laws promoted by certain politicians (including the
president) as increasing privacy, when they really do just the
opposite - not to mention the temporary moratorium on national IDs for
everyone to be used for medical purposes, ...then there's the work
towards the creation of a national database for medical records. I
won't even begin to touch on such areas as the commercial and
governmental influences involved with the A.M.A. (no wonder many
physicians don't belong to it!) and conflicts of interests that affect
nonpprofit web sites such as Intellihealth (look into its connections
with Aetna, and what Aetna has done to people's health with it's HMOs)
and Medem. Before anyone flames me, please look into this yourself if
you value your health and the confidentiality of your medical
records... then express your concerns to your physician.
Yes, just watch the news and see how many health insurances and HMO's are
DENYING coverage to people because of this information. Remember that the
prime goal of insurance companies is NOT to pay out on claims.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
I have noticed that we are becoming more encumbered by the computers we use.
Freedom of thought is being re-placed byy a 'fill in the blank' attitude.
AT&T discovered that years ago; try talking to one of their employess about
anything out of the very narrow rut they deal with.
The easiest way to control men's thinking is to control the information they
use. And computers give them that control. What's why I still like books
-- it is very difficult to censor a million plus books, but it is very easy
on a centralized database.
4:37 p.m.
New subject: BIG BROTHER -- Another reason to preserve systems
On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote:
The easiest way to control men's thinking is to
control the information they
use. And computers give them that control. What's why I still like books
-- it is very difficult to censor a million plus books, but it is very easy
on a centralized database.
Me too. The concept of e-books is horrid, and has all sorts of rotten
implications. A company that I used to work for, which is involved in
e-books, also creates web sites for professional journals, and, at the
request of a publisher, made changes to text _after_ the journal was
published. Ok, it was a correction, however, consider the
implications; not good. Besides, there's nothing like the
satisfaction of going into a book store, looking through books, buying
some, then being able to leisurely read through them where and when
one wants - no electricity, no batteries, no net connection, nothing
to break if its dropped or stepped on... like when my mobile telephone
was stepped on by a horse... only a paper book, not an e-book reading
device, could survive that. :-) Do you think that an an uncensored
version of _Huckleberry Finn_ would survive in the e-book world for
very long (I doubt one will survive decades unchanged)?
Back on topic: Those restoring older cars can obtain certain body
parts, etc. which have been cloned (albeit some are of dubious
quality, although some are better) from the originals, and even some
auto manufacturers have begun manufacturing a few once discontinued
parts as demand has risen. Does anyone foresee the possibility of the
manufacturing of clones, or electrically compatible work-alikes, of
certain discontinued ICs at some point in the future?
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
5:18 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's (was annoying political thing)
Back on topic:
Good. The _easiest_ way to annoy people is to bring up profound political
talk in a non-political setting.
Those restoring older cars can obtain certain body
parts, etc. which have been cloned (albeit some are of dubious
quality, although some are better) from the originals, and even some
auto manufacturers have begun manufacturing a few once discontinued
parts as demand has risen. Does anyone foresee the possibility of the
manufacturing of clones, or electrically compatible work-alikes, of
certain discontinued ICs at some point in the future?
Almost any old electronic component can be found these days, especially
"modern" ones as used in computers. Is it easy? Well, sometimes not -
there are some that might show there heads once in a blue moon. Look at
perhaps one of the rarest - the iAPX432 chip(s). No, you can't surf the
web and expect to find them for sale, but they do surface from time to
time (last time I think was on Ebay). It does take some looking, as well
as the ability to act when the need comes up. To continue the example with
the iAPX432, one needs to know what it looks like (funny looking LCCCs),
and to purchase the thing(s) when a sale comes up, no matter what the
reason. Waiting can result in the chips being lost (or sold to someone
else).
I have a general rule of thumb about the survival of technological things
from the 1900s - about one percent survives, although
perhaps some remain
hidden. Even mundane stuff like ICs get saved by packrats
(let's face it
- electronics geeks are good packrats!). Caches of chips will be
uncovered for years to come, especially when the older engineers die and
the estates are sold. Lots of stuff will get trashed, certainly, but
enough will be saved and sold off. The antique and ham radio fields have
this already figured out, and many parts one would think of as
"unobtainium" are indeed obtainable.
In the future (fairly distant, as in 10 or 20 years), it would not suprise
me one bit if standard ICs are gone - just about everything is an ASIC or
field programmable. The tools will be so advanced that burning a clone of
some 1970s part could be child's play, and available on the desktop. It
may be overkill - imagine some analog/digital hybrid ASIC with 100,000
blocks emulating a MC714 14 pin RTL gate, but who cares? Likewise, in 10
or 20 years some of the very nice CNC machine tools, as well as some of
the advanced soldering stations, will be quite affordable and available on
the surplus market, so a small garage industry (geek with tools and
some business brains) could make package convertors available.
Yes, I am optimistic about the future of our hobby.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
5:57 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
In the future (fairly distant, as in 10 or 20 years),
it would not suprise
me one bit if standard ICs are gone - just about everything is an ASIC or
field programmable. The tools will be so advanced that burning a clone of
some 1970s part could be child's play, and available on the desktop. It
Hmmm. But will it be a problem that the knowledge of the internal
specifications may be gone? I'm not a hardware engineer, so take this with
a grain of salt, but as I understand it, that's one of the things that makes
writing software emulators so difficult. Timing is an issue, of course,
especially when the emulator runs on a multi-tasking OS with unpredictable
performance. But duplicating the precise behavior of the chips (including
the "undocumented" behaviors that advanced programmers used to rely upon) is
even more of a challenge from what I've heard.
I wish we had the advanced technology you're talking about today. It would
be great to fry up some copies of the C64 and C128 hardware. Maybe even a
VIC-20. But then again, it would be more important to copy some of the
older, less abundant machines lest they disappear for good...
- Earl
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
Earl Evans
retro(a)retrobits.com
Enjoy retrocomputing today!
Visit the Retrobits web site at
http://www.retrobits.com
6:10 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
Hmmm. But will it be a problem that the knowledge of
the internal
specifications may be gone? I'm not a hardware engineer, so take this with
a grain of salt, but as I understand it, that's one of the things that makes
writing software emulators so difficult.
Yes, but you are not the first to be concerned with this - the U.S.
military was many years ago as many of the parts used in weapons systems
were being discontinued by U.S. sources. To solve the problem, they
created VHDL, a complex language used to describe the behavior of the
parts, from the very high level to the very low. It does not detail any
of the internal structure of the chips - just behavior.
Certainly there is a huge VHDL library the military cooked up somewhere,
as they have managed to use just about every family of digital component
under the sun (under the waves, too). I do not know if that database is
currently publicly accessable, as there is some sensitive information in
it. It might be interesting to see if some of it could be released under
the Freedom of Information Act.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
6:39 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
William Donzelli wrote:
Yes, but you are not the first to be concerned with
this - the U.S.
military was many years ago as many of the parts used in weapons systems
were being discontinued by U.S. sources. To solve the problem, they
created VHDL, a complex language used to describe the behavior of the
parts, from the very high level to the very low. It does not detail any
of the internal structure of the chips - just behavior.
Well, sort of. Back-annotation is rampant at clock speeds above 150MHz
in both VHDL and Verilog, and you can't build a processor (or something
that looks like a processor) these days without using custom cells,
i.e., non-synthesized hunks of code which describe the circuit
at the transistor level. Purely behavioral code is rarely seen these
days and is often avoided by policy -- it's possible to write perfectly
valid behavioral code which is utterly unsynthisizable -- all of
which makes me wonder how this addresses the concern (if it _is_ a concern).
As for the military -- while the US military loves VHDL (as
do most European firms) most US firms prefer Verilog (IBM is a
notable exception) and with the push towards COTS or repackaged COTS
components the Pentagon is in no position to tell people to write
stuff in VHDL.
Stuff gets obsoleted so fast that the US is busy either preparing to
field (the F22) or compete (the JSF) aircraft which contain
discontinued parts in their avionics systems. They don't fix this
by requiring people to write stuff in VHDL, they fix it by buying
shitloads of parts while they can and then sticking them on the
shelf.
There's also the weird secondary market that exists because of military
programs. TI has previously sold the IP and remaining dies for end-of-life
parts to other firms who then either continue production or package the
dies to meet military needs -- which is great if you need something in
a flat-pac...
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
7:20 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
At 08:39 PM 7/30/00 -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote:
and you can't build a processor (or something
that looks like a processor) these days without using custom cells,
i.e., non-synthesized hunks of code which describe the circuit
at the transistor level.
www.fpgacpu.org
--Chuck
8:04 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
Chuck McManis wrote:
At 08:39 PM 7/30/00 -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote:
Let me try that again. Processor speeds much in excess of 300MHz
require the use of custom blocks, largely because you need to use
precharge logic. This link refers to a project
using a part from the XC4000XLA family, which maxes out slightly
above 200MHz and isn't very dense -- 500K gates which is far
below what I'd expect to find in a contemporary workstation or
even game console class processor.
Still not sure what this does about extinction of older logic...
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
and you can't build a processor (or
something
that looks like a processor) these days without using custom cells,
i.e., non-synthesized hunks of code which describe the circuit
at the transistor level.
www.fpgacpu.org 
31 Jul
31 Jul
7:03 a.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
At 08:39 PM 7/30/00 -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote:
There are also, as of many years ago (which was the last time I checked),
Z80, 6502, 8086, and 80186 cores available for inclusion in gate array
design. The problem was that they were, and probably still are, very very
expensive.
Eric
and you can't build a processor (or
something
that looks like a processor) these days without using custom cells,
i.e., non-synthesized hunks of code which describe the circuit
at the transistor level.
www.fpgacpu.org 
12:36 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
To solve the problem, they
created VHDL, a complex language used to describe the behavior of the
parts, from the very high level to the very low. It does not detail any
of the internal structure of the chips - just behavior.
Actually, VHDL can describe designs at any of several levels, including
a range from pure behavioral, as you suggest, to pure structural.
The most common uses of VHDL seem to be somewhere inbetween. Pure
behavioral descriptions are fine for simulation but don't tend to work
well for synthesis, so large designs are usually built as structural
descriptions of smaller behavioral subdesigns.
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
On 31 Jul 2000, Eric Smith wrote:
Additionally, VHDL doesn't represent the actually layout of the chip
at all. Many times the netlist generated by the synthesis tool has to
be hand edited to fix up the last few timing problems. This is similiar
to hand routing a few traces on a PCB that the autorouter can't handle.
I have been wondering how difficult it would be to pop the top off
an ASIC (perhaps one of the DEC gate arrays in my 11/750), photograph
it using the probe station at work, and reverse engineer the circuitry
based on the photographs. A program to recognize individual transistors
wouldn't be too difficult, then generating simple gates (nand,nor,invert),
To solve the
problem, they
created VHDL, a complex language used to describe the behavior of the
parts, from the very high level to the very low. It does not detail any
of the internal structure of the chips - just behavior.
Actually, VHDL can describe designs at any of several levels, including
a range from pure behavioral, as you suggest, to pure structural.
The most common uses of VHDL seem to be somewhere inbetween. Pure
behavioral descriptions are fine for simulation but don't tend to work
well for synthesis, so large designs are usually built as structural
descriptions of smaller behavioral subdesigns.
from them, the high level stuff like registers and
busses...
Anybody know of a tool to do something like that?
clint
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
I have been wondering how difficult it would be to pop
the top off
an ASIC (perhaps one of the DEC gate arrays in my 11/750), photograph
it using the probe station at work, and reverse engineer the circuitry
based on the photographs. A program to recognize individual transistors
wouldn't be too difficult, then generating simple gates (nand,nor,invert),
from them, the high level stuff like registers and busses...
Anybody know of a tool to do something like that?
There are companies that specialize in reverse-engineering chips. It's
reported that they've automated the process from photomicrograph to
netlist. However, they consider their tools to be highly proprietary.
AFAIK, they're not for sale at any price.
Chips with more than two layers of metal are substantially harder
to reverse-engineer. A simple photomicrograph isn't sufficient.
3:22 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
I have been wondering how difficult it would be to pop
the top off
an ASIC (perhaps one of the DEC gate arrays in my 11/750), photograph
it using the probe station at work, and reverse engineer the circuitry
based on the photographs. A program to recognize individual transistors
wouldn't be too difficult, then generating simple gates (nand,nor,invert),
from them, the high level stuff like registers and busses...
Anybody know of a tool to do something like that?
I don't know of a tool to do that. On a similar vein, though, I do know of
one company that is designing high speed imaging microscopes to observe
switching in high density logic designs. We were talking about difficulty
in debugging FPGA designs when you're not able to route a signal to a pin.
Image how tough it is when you're making a real, non-programmable device.
Then imagine every gate being a test point, because of the few photons
it gives off when it switches, timed to the nanosecond. Not being in the
business I don't know if this is news or not. But it seemed pretty cool
when I heard about it.
I imaging if you got your hands on one of those ($$$$$$) you could probably
reverse engineer just about anything. :)
Eric
3:28 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
"Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote:
I have been wondering how difficult it would be to pop
the top off
an ASIC (perhaps one of the DEC gate arrays in my 11/750), photograph
it using the probe station at work, and reverse engineer the circuitry
based on the photographs. A program to recognize individual transistors
wouldn't be too difficult, then generating simple gates (nand,nor,invert),
from them, the high level stuff like registers and busses...
Anybody know of a tool to do something like that?
Well, if you want Verilog or VHDL as output you could use LayBool,
but it's fragile and, as with most EDA tools, expensive
(~USD100K). At one time it was peddled by SGS-Thomson, then Compass,
now god-knows-who. It gets badly confused by precharge logic, but
you're not likely to see that in something from an 11/750 ;-)
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
3:44 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
Well, if you want Verilog or VHDL as output you could
use LayBool,
but it's fragile and, as with most EDA tools, expensive
(~USD100K). At one time it was peddled by SGS-Thomson, then Compass,
now god-knows-who. It gets badly confused by precharge logic, but
you're not likely to see that in something from an 11/750 ;-)
It's now apparently Avanti's Lynx-LB tool:
http://www.avanticorp.com/Avant!/SolutionsProducts/Products/Item/1,1172,11,…
http://www.avanticorp.com/Avant!/EJ/Technical/Articles/Item/1,1058,82,00.ht…
They claim it now handles precharge logic, domino logic, etc. Sounds
pretty nice.
The input is a Spice netlist. Now we just need the step that transforms
the photomicrograph into the netlist. Oh, and a big pile of dead
presidents with which to buy Lynx-LB. :-)
3:56 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
The most common uses of VHDL seem to be somewhere
inbetween. Pure
behavioral descriptions are fine for simulation but don't tend to work
well for synthesis, so large designs are usually built as structural
descriptions of smaller behavioral subdesigns.
It seems that VHDL (and Verilog) has moved 99.9 percent away from its
original purpose, that of pure documentation (I wonder if the original
designers ever thought the language would be used for non-military
development?). It also seems that the original need for VHDL has only
been used a few times (which is actually the way it is supposed to be.).
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
1 Aug
1 Aug
10:15 a.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
William Donzelli wrote:
It seems that VHDL (and Verilog) has moved 99.9
percent away from its
original purpose, that of pure documentation
According to the references I have handy, VHDL was originally intended
primarily for simulation. I can't find a single reference to any intention
that it serve solely as documentation.
As somewhat of a secondary objective, VHDL was intended to support
synthesis; there's a very recent IEEE standard for that.
Verilog was intended for both synthesis and simulation.
1:30 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
According to the references I have handy, VHDL was
originally intended
primarily for simulation. I can't find a single reference to any intention
that it serve solely as documentation.
OK, maybe not solely, but one of the big points was that as the military
came up with the chips from the VHSIC project, and knwoing the military,
having them in service for 30 years, VHDL could be used to make more long
after the originals (and original makers) are gone.
Apparently the idea has worked well enough that some of the older weapons
systems (pre-VHDL) are getting "redone" using the language (there is some
military too-complicated acronym for the project).
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
30 Jul
30 Jul
6:11 p.m.
New subject: Discontinued IC's
I wish we had the advanced technology you're
talking about today. It would
be great to fry up some copies of the C64 and C128 hardware. Maybe even a
VIC-20. But then again, it would be more important to copy some of the
older, less abundant machines lest they disappear for good...
I would not woorry about C64s and the like - people will be uncovering
them 100 years from now.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
31 Jul
31 Jul
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Part Needed (not quite 10 years old)
Folks --
This may be off topic -- but I'm looking for a power adapter
IBM P/N 85G6670 (IBM Field Service FRU 85G6689) for an IBM 755CSD
laptop.
Does anyone have a source?
--
bpechter(a)monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
| Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow?
| BSD: Are you guys coming, or what?
30 Jul
30 Jul
7:01 p.m.
New subject: BIG BROTHER -- Another reason to preserve systems
parts as demand has risen. Does anyone foresee the
possibility of the
manufacturing of clones, or electrically compatible work-alikes, of
certain discontinued ICs at some point in the future?
Most likely that is a no brainer, eventually if it already isn't true, you
should be able to have couple generic devices in each of the old common pin
configurations that could be programmed to emulate all the devices of that
pinout (ie 14 pin dual inline etc.). My guess is that the only reason it
hasn't happened yet are that supplies of the old devices adequately fill
the need cheaper than fakes.
6:41 p.m.
and Medem. Before anyone flames me, please look into
this yourself if
you value your health and the confidentiality of your medical
records... then express your concerns to your physician.
Sheesh, my doctor after about 6 years still hasn't managed to get my
records out of off site storage. I personally have no concern over my,
rather abysmal, medical information getting into the wrong hands. Just
treat the information like "evidence" is treated now, if it doesn't come
via some due process it can't be legally used.
8698
days inactive
8700
days old
24 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
aw288＠osfn.org -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ghldbrd＠ccp.com -
John.Allain＠donnelley.infousa.com -
korpela＠ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu -
korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
pechter＠pechter.dyndns.org -
rdd＠smart.net -
retro＠retrobits.com -
transit＠lerctr.org -
vaxman＠uswest.net