In article &lt;p06240825c5dd0c2a411d(a)[192.168.1.199]&gt;9]>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: No offense, but I don't think a price from 11 years ago is relevant anymore. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

In article <49B80F86.9070207 at update.uu.se>, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> writes: Nope. Not when it comes to determining what people are willing to pay for a PDP-11. I did some checking on ebay and machines much less capable or vintage than an 11/44 were selling for more than $100. Examples: $475 PDP-11/73, item # 300295154117 $200 PDP-11/73, item # 250375935263 $105 PDP-11/05 boards and backplane, item # 230327891779 $99.99 PDP-11 header panel only, item # 230327888816 My understanding is that a PDP-11/44 is much less of a commodity item than either of those machines. Given that the plastic header panel sold for what someone paid for an entire 11/44 11 years ago should indicate what has been happening in this marketplace. More search results: <http://tinyurl.com/d4a4h2> Yes, but I don't think you can argue that a price from 11 years ago is going to be even marginally relevant to prices today, even when accounting for a temporary dip in prices because people are less willing to buy now than they were last year. What I've noticed on this list is that the people here have a tendency to undervalue what other people are willing to pay for vintage computing gear. Whether that's because they are just too cheap to pay a higher price or because they are living in a past-time when vintage computing collecting wasn't popular (I paid $100 11 years ago) or whatever, I don't know. However, it has been consistent observation in my experience. Deals can still be had, but they are not typical. I've received some stuff for free and other stuff I had to outbid other collectors in order to get it. The going market price for something is not a function of what someone paid for that item 11 years ago; it is based on what people are willing to pay now. Almost certainly everything we collect becomes more scarce over time; rarely does new supply become available. More people are interested in collecting vintage computers now than were interested 11 years ago. Supply has stayed the same and demand has increased. Its a simple economic proposition, really. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: It's not _that_ big... It's the same size as an 11/24, right? (but with Split I/D, so it has more options for OSes, etc.) It is big compared to a MicroPDP-11, though. I have several Unibus PDP-11s (11/70, 11/44, 11/24, 11/34, 11/04, 11/05, 11/20) as well as Qbus -11s (11/23+, 11/23, 11/03, MINC-11, MicroPDP-11/53, Dataram Q22, Heath H-11). My total -11 count is around 20 boxy machines plus a few DECProfessionals (350s and one 380, no 325s). Most have either floppy or disk or both. One or two are awaiting some attention (like the 11/20 that I got in pieces, rather badly dismantled before I found it in the dumpster at work), but I've booted and run all the rest, some much more than others. None of these cost me more than $300, and that one was an 11/23 I bought used in 1986 to do some consulting (it came in a BA-11N w/KDF-11 CPU, BDV-11, 1xM8044 (32kW) MOS card, DLV11J quad SLU, and an LPV11 - the RLV11 was another $100 from another company). Sometime around 1988, I picked up two loaded 11/34s (RL11/RL02, RX211/RX02, diag paper tapes, RT-11 V2, V43, and V4 floppies, docs, etc.) for $500 (and was able to load both racks plus gear into a Microbus). Nearly every other -11 I have was free for the hauling. I've earned substantially more in consulting and parts sales than I ever paid for all of my PDP-11 gear combined, so I'm already in the black there. I'm willing to admit, though, that some of what I have is uncommon. With what I have already, I think I'm unlikely to fill in the gaps (like an 11/40 or 11/35 or 11/55, etc.) -ethan

In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.0903111408460.28396 at slate.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: I don't know why you want to make this personal, even though you "refrain", its quite clear that comment is intended to insult me. I would have more respect for you if you just insulted me outright instead of trying to insult me while at the same time claiming higher moral ground (and failing). The subject of prices comes up on this list regularly. Routinely the comments are made "back 20 years ago I was picking these up for free". Well, that's a nice anecdote, but it isn't useful in determining what people are willing to pay today. Routinely the complaint is made that ebay has done nothing but drive up prices and so-on. Like it or not, that is the reality. Yeah, it would be great if this stuff was all just sitting by the curb and all you had to do was drive up and put it in your car. It isn't. Wishing for the good ole days is irrelevant. You're talking like I have claimed the price of $750 is justified or reasonable. I have done no such thing. I am only pointing out that fire sale prices for PDP-11s from a decade ago are irrelevant to what people are willing to pay today. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

I am not at all sure what makes a computer 'collectable', but anyway... It's not that big. The CPU is just a 10.5" rackmount box. It often came in a short rack cainet with a TU58, but there's no reason it has to be in that cabinet. That depeds -- a lot -- on the hobbyist. For a hardware person like me, the 11/44 (and most other older Unibus machines with the exception of the 11/24) are more interesting. I can understand how the CPU works, look at the microcode, repair the CPU to component level, and so on. And there are, IMHO, more interesting peripherals for the Unibus machines. IIRC, using standard DEC boards you can put any Q-bus peripherals on a Unius machine (using a DW11-B bus converter) but not the reverse. I have both Unibus and Qbus macnines, I also have a fair number of 11s For the Unibus machines, IIRC, I have PDP11/45 with RK05s, RK07s, RLs, etc PDP11/44 (it's got 22 bit addressing, it's small (see above). I'd prefer an 11/70, but I've got nowhere to put one, and anyway I was never offered one. 3 off PDP11/34 PDP11/10 GT40 PDP11/24 (I was given it, it's of little real interest). Q-bus ----- At least one of the original LSI11s ,with the quad-height CPU board, etc PDP11/03 PDP11/23 A couple of MINCs SBC21 -tony

On Wednesday 11 March 2009, Richard wrote: eBay is one method of determining value, but any one-time search you do won't have enough data to really be useful, since they only go back 2 weeks in completed item searches. I'm amazed that an 11/73 or 11/23 would go for that much... I guess I should start selling off my pile of QBUS stuff (though that itself will probably cause a dip in prices). I totally agree with this, though. In some cases, prices even *one* year ago are net all that useful for determining value. I think that deals are more commonplace than you think, just people who don't go searching for deals (ie, university and business surplus sales and auctions, dumpster diving, digging through scrap heaps, and things that people aren't willing to ship) don't see them, because they're hidden behind a layer of obscurity. I get tons of great deals (which is a problem, because I end up with too much stuff) from Purdue's surplus place, where a lot of the non-commodity items just get recycled and the general public doesn't ever see them. I've heard from at least one other person that another university's surplus place does the same thing... so if you don't have connections at these places, you won't see the "good deals". In any case, the value of an item depends as much upon who has a chance to buy it, and what they're willing to pay, as anything else. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

On Mar 11, 2009, at 2:38 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: Hmm. Will you sell it for $100 now? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Two words: too expensive! Three words: way too expensive. If the list of modules is all there is, the CPU is not complete! The basic boards of the 11/44 are: M7090, M7093 ... M7098. M7095 is missing! Further, the M7900, M7902 and M7903 are just a part of the RK611 interface, so if you have RK06 or RK07 you need to find the missing boards (m7901, M7904), else you have to remove that 9-slot backplane, as it is of no other use than functioning as RK611 controller. The M7258 is the LP11 controller. Again without a suitable printer to connect, this board is not of much use either. In the first rack is the 11/44, I assume. What's in the other rack? For $750 you get an incomplete 11/44, some boards of not much use (probably), and a simple (and slow) DL11 (M7800). I would not pay $750. my 2 ct :-) - Henk

While I agree that $750 is too much for a partial machine, I also agree with two other threads of thought expressed here. 1) eBay has distorted the market. IMHO sometimes the drive to "win" overrides common sense, and we end up with inflated prices. Moreover, eBay's many strategies to obfuscate this marketplace serve only to increase eBay's revenues - which isn't unexpected, even if it is frustrating to folks like us. I speak of the lack of price history - imagine if we had a complete history of pricing for an 11/44 - and now the concealment of bidders. I remember a time when if, for instance, Al Kossow was bidding on a document, I would walk away and let him have it rather than bid up the price. I remember another time when I was bidding on a machine and saw someone else "in the community" bid on it, too. I sent him an email saying that I was really interested in this machine because I didn't have one; he responded that he was only looking for a spare, and he stopped bidding to give me a chance (I did win it). There was a sort of "gentlemen's agreement" that is nearly impossible to respect now that we don't know who's bidding! Of course, the higher the sale price, the higher the fees eBay collects. 2) Markets change. My first two -11s were "free" in the sense that I didn't pay the former owner; I did have to rent a truck! One of those is an 11/40, which today is considered a reasonably uncommon and desirable model. By the time I realized I wasn't going to find a similar deal on a PDP-8/e/f/m, prices had risen to the point where I found myself paying around $1k for a machine. <sigh> But again, there are still deals to be had, especially amongst ourselves. If Livermore wasn't so far away, "free to loving home" would have landed a NextStation in my basement.... I've occasionally sent messages to eBay sellers saying in essence, "Are you kidding?" regarding their pricing. Some reply with, "What do you think it's really worth?" Most reply with, "Too bad, that's what I want for it." Some sincerely believe their item is worth the asking price; some are hoping it is, or that someone is desperate enough to pay their ransom. That's the world we live in. Getting into a food fight between ourselves won't change that. There are alternative venues (such as Vintage Computer Marketplace), and if we patronize them they may attract the market away from eBay. Many are becoming aggravated with eBay and while it's not extremely likely that another venue will replace them anytime soon, in niche markets such as ours perhaps there is a chance for alternative markets. IMHO -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar [ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:25 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: PDP 11/44 Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: He's looking for too much. Peace... Sridhar

Hi all ? I just wanted share with you my most recent S-100/IEEE-696 CP/M, CDOS-816 project. I hope most of you will find the Web Page an enjoyable read. The URL is http://www.michael-george-hart.com/computerscience/imsai8080-8088.html I am still scanning my documentation into PDF, so please be patient for any documentation that is missing at this time for any particular board on the site. Michael michael.george.hart at gmail.com ? I, the unwilling, was led by the unqualified, to do the unbelievable for so long with so little, that I attempted the impossible with nothing......"

Well, relatively speaking they were children (remember freshly minted PHd's) with egos. Sometimes children like ganging upon people. Luckily I did not buckle and remained focused on the problem at hand. Again I have been around for a very long time and note that senior people interviewing you tend to have a general respect for an applicants experience and not bother other senior developers with silly issues unrelated to big picture of bringing a project to completion.At least that is what I do when I interview a senior developer/analysis. Interviewing with relatively young developers, they tend to stress their own egos and limitied design experience. Unfortunately most of the time you have to run the gauntlet before you ever get to a senior person.. Michael --- On Thu, 3/12/09, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: A most satisfying project..... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009, 5:57 PM That was a very interesting story. I don't think I could do any coding with someone looking over my shoulder all the time, as I'm not to good when under lots of pressure. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Michael Hart <imsaicollector at yahoo.com> wrote: From: Michael Hart <imsaicollector at yahoo.com> Subject: A most satisfying project..... To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, cctech at classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 6:37 PM Hi all ? I just wanted share with you my most recent S-100/IEEE-696 CP/M, CDOS-816 project. I hope most of you will find the Web Page an enjoyable read. The URL is http://www.michael-george-hart.com/computerscience/imsai8080-8088.html I am still scanning my documentation into PDF, so please be patient for any documentation that is missing at this time for any particular board on the site. Michael michael.george.hart at gmail.com ? I, the unwilling, was led by the unqualified, to do the unbelievable for so long with so little, that I attempted the impossible with nothing......"