20 Apr
2011
20 Apr
'11
10:53 a.m.
I saw this posting over on the Apple 2 Marketplace.
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple2.marketplace/browse_thread/thread/77428891e093f0f5?hl=en>
It looks like Albany Microcomputer Services is cleaning out their shop.
Jeff Walther
20 Apr
20 Apr
11 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:53:53AM -0500, Jeff Walther wrote:
I saw this posting over on the Apple 2 Marketplace.
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple2.marketplace/browse_thread/thread/77428891e093f0f5?hl=en>
It looks like Albany Microcomputer Services is cleaning out their shop.
Jeff Walther
Before you get all to worked up about it, there is already a lot of takers:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?24945-FREE-Vintage-c…
/P
21 Apr
21 Apr
8:59 a.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was inspired by the Atari 400.. I think it
looks like something Digital would put out.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/20/niyari-brings-back-atari-400-nostalgia-w…
While it is $150.00.. It's out of stock
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/computers/peripherals/keyboard-mouse/niyari-vint…
9:10 a.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
--- On Thu, 4/21/11, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
Someone make a USB keyboard for
Windows that was inspired by the Atari 400.. I think it
looks like something Digital would put out.
They went to all the trouble to make it look like the Atari keyboard, and stuck the
Windows logo on it? Ick.
But, still, looks cool. At least it's a chicklet keyboard, rather than that horrible
membrane "keyboard" the 400 came with.
-Ian
5:05 p.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
But, still, looks cool. At least it's a chicklet
keyboard, rather than
that horrible membrane "keyboard" the 400 came with.
Many years ago I specificually used an Atari 400 keyboard in a project
_because_ it was a membrane one and didn't have keycaps that could be
removed.
-tony
9:32 a.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Christian Liendo
<christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was
inspired by the Atari 400..
World's. Worst. Keyboard.
A friend of mine had an Atari 400. His parents got it for him to
"help him with his homework". He used to type his papers on that
membrane keyboard.
Meanwhile, another friend had a black vintage hammer-type typewriter.
Typing papers was actually easier for him that for my friend with the
400.
My mom was a secretary. She had an IBM selectric. World's loudest
typewriter. She could type 90wpm on that thing. Oh man, what a
sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. I
used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school
got a much of Apple 2Es.
Membrane keyboards for computers should have never been invented. ATM
machine, yes. Computer, no.
12:27 p.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote:
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Christian Liendo
<christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
I dunno, the Timex Sinclair 1000 might be even worse.
Alexey
Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was
inspired by the Atari 400..
World's. Worst. Keyboard.
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Alexey Toptygin <alexeyt at freeshell.org> wrote:
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote:
You're right, that one was worse. The friend with the typewriter had
a timex sinclair 1000 before he got his c64. Of course, it's hard to
fit a full stroke keyboard on an overgrown calculator. :-)
brian
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Christian
Liendo
<christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote:
I dunno, the Timex Sinclair 1000 might be even worse.
Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was inspired by the Atari
400..
World's. ?Worst. ?Keyboard. 
2:47 p.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote:
My mom was a secretary. She had an IBM selectric.
World's loudest
typewriter. She could type 90wpm on that thing. Oh man, what a
sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. I
used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school
got a much of Apple 2Es.
Rated top speed for the mechanism was 14.8 characters per second (about
150 WPM). But a 150 WPM typist (yes, I've met some!) would have bursts
substantially higher, and selectrics would come apart. At work, somebody
succeeded in running one at 300 baud. Briefly. That was discontinued when
the "golfball" went flying into a sheetrock wall.
Membrane keyboards for computers should have never
been invented. ATM
machine, yes. Computer, no.
and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually objected to.
Radio Shack put out the Coco wityth chiklets. They ended up providing
cheap/free replacements.
IBM showed that they were incapable of learning from the mistakes of
others, and released the PCJr with chiklets. They ended up providing
cheap/free replacements.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3 p.m.
New subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote:
I would have paid money to witness that. :)
My mom was a secretary. She had an IBM
selectric. World's loudest
typewriter. She could type 90wpm on that thing. Oh man, what a
sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. I
used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school
got a much of Apple 2Es.
Rated top speed for the mechanism was 14.8 characters per second (about
150 WPM). But a 150 WPM typist (yes, I've met some!) would have bursts
substantially higher, and selectrics would come apart. At work, somebody
succeeded in running one at 300 baud. Briefly. That was discontinued when
the "golfball" went flying into a sheetrock wall.
and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people
actually objected to.
Radio Shack put out the Coco wityth chiklets. They ended up providing
cheap/free replacements.
IBM showed that they were incapable of learning from the mistakes of
others, and released the PCJr with chiklets. They ended up providing
cheap/free replacements.
This is what happens when you've got MBA wielding accounti-zombies running
a technology company. I swear that their frontal lobes are scooped out
with a melon baller when they get their diploma...
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
3:11 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
Fred Cisin wrote:
and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people
actually
objected to.
Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with
normal keys on later models.
TRS-80 Color Computer chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced
with normal keys on later models.
TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys
on later 99/4A model.
IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys
on replacement keyboard
Apple chiclet keyboards: loved by all the Apple fanboys. Not only have
they not been replaced with normal keys on later models, but now other
notebook vendors have copied them!
Bletch!
There's a REASON that typewriter keys weren't just flat square things.
The concavity of the key tops made the typist's fingertips self-center
rather than wandering off. Chiclet keyboard don't do that, and are an
abomination.
This is a separate issue from whether the chiclets are rubber or hard
plastic. Rubber chicklets suck even more!
This is also a separate issue from the distance of travel. There's no
reason that a key top can't have the correct shape with short travel, as
was/is done on many notebooks. (Whether short or long travel is better
is a different debate entirely.)
Last time I shopped for a notebook, the only thing I could find that
came reasonably close to meeting all of my requirements was a Sony
VPCEB17FX. My main gripe with it is the damn chiclet keyboard. Sony
apparently thinks that they'll sell more notebooks if they copy Apple,
and for all I know, perhaps they're right. It sucks though. I would
have gladly paid an extra $100 to get the same thing with a real
keyboard instead of the f*#&ing chiclets.
The Onion story about the MacBook Wheel quoted a supposed customer:
"I'll buy almost anything If it's shiny and made by Apple." Apparently
they found reality to be more amusing than any parody they could think up.
http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-wit…
3:19 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Smith" <eric at brouhaha.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 3:11 PM
Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking
Keyboard)
Fred Cisin wrote:
Try the Timex 2068 chicklet keys (hard plastic), but instead of just typing
commands you have to hit wierd key combos.
and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that
people actually
objected to.
Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with
normal keys on later models.
TRS-80 Color Computer chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with
normal keys on later models.
TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on
later 99/4A model.
IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys
on replacement keyboard
Apple chiclet keyboards: loved by all the Apple fanboys. Not only have
they not been replaced with normal keys on later models, but now other
notebook vendors have copied them!
Bletch!
3:22 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Eric Smith wrote:
TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced
with normal keys on
later 99/4A model.
The "normal" keyboard was still unusable. All the keys were pretty much
the same size!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
3:42 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
--- On Thu, 4/21/11, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
The "normal" keyboard was still
unusable. All the
keys were pretty much the same size!
Hehe. It wasn't so much the size of the keys, it was the lack thereof. Backspace
should not be a shifted character. What was it, like function-S or something? I forget.
-Ian
TI-99/4
chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone,
replaced with normal keys on later 99/4A
model.
3:51 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
--- On Thu, 4/21/11, Gene Buckle <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
The "normal" keyboard was still
unusable. All the
keys were pretty much the same size!
Hehe. It wasn't so much the size of the keys, it was the lack thereof.
Backspace should not be a shifted character. What was it, like
function-S or something? I forget.
No clue. The first time I tried one, my hands went on strike after
touching the keyboard. I had to hold my Commodore 64 for three days
before they'd speak to me again. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
TI-99/4
chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone,
replaced with normal keys on later 99/4A
model.
3:49 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
Fred Cisin wrote:
Some folks didn't even wait. Some paid over $100 for an external
"full-sized" keyboard. I bought a blue-bezel chiclet PET with the
internal cable from Skyles Electric Works for the external keyboard
(probably long since separated).
In 1978, I liked the PET chiclet keyboard because the keys were on a
square grid and it made 2-player action games easy to implement (using
the keys around the 'S' and the keys around the '5' as an "8 way
pad"). This was when Atari joysticks were still somewhat expensive
and before the diode trick for hanging two joysticks off the User Port
emerged. Even after the "PET Paper" published joystick interface
schematics and instructions, very little commercial game software
supported joysticks on the PET.
I didn't type very fast when I was a kid, so I didn't mind how
unsuitable the keyboard was for "real" typists. Now, I'd find it
incredibly awkward.
Unlike the TI-99/4 and other machines inflicted with chiclets, I find
it amusing that it's become a defining feature for "collectible PETs".
Back in the day, there was a rush for the exits on the old model when
you could buy a machine that could easily be expanded above 8K
(without adding boards) and had a full-sized keyboard. Because of
firmware differences, "New" PETs very quickly pushed the older models
to the side in terms of what was supported and what you could get
peripherals and software for. Now (largely because issues of
practicality are irrelevant), the price of a 1977/1978
chiclet-keyboard PET is several times that of a 1978 Graphic or
Business-keyboard PET.
-ethan
and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that
people actually
objected to.
Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: ?hated by everyone, replaced with
normal keys on later models. 
4:04 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 lookingKeyboard)
I didn't type very fast when I was a kid, so I
didn't mind how
unsuitable the keyboard was for "real" typists. Now, I'd find it
incredibly awkward.
Nice point, Ethan!
Someone here said that these keys should be banned. It was the ONLY way
to create a computer cheap enough to cost below (pound)100, and to make more
expensive puters cheaper.
4:48 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400lookingKeyboard)
Yes, chicklet keyboards were inferior and I'm no fan of them but they did
make the machines cheaper. Buying a computer for personal use was expensive
back in the late 70s/early 80s. At the time cheap keyboards did allow
exposure to the technology that a lot of people would not have be able to
afford.
Regarding the Atari 400, the flat membrane keyboard makes sense. Don't
forget, the 800 was released at the same time. People who wanted the
"serious" model were expected to buy that one. The 400 was a cheaper family
games machine mostly cartridge driven. However, it was software compatible
with the 800 and had a keyboard just in case people might want to dabble in
BASIC, learn some programming etc. A keyboard which could be wiped down and
quite robust and kid-proof. I think the Atari 400 keyboard was quite
sensible for the market it was aimed at.
Terry (Tez)
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari
400lookingKeyboard)
I didn't
type very fast when I was a kid, so I didn't mind how
unsuitable the keyboard was for "real" typists. Now, I'd find it
incredibly awkward.
Nice point, Ethan!
Someone here said that these keys should be banned. It was the ONLY way
to create a computer cheap enough to cost below (pound)100, and to make
more expensive puters cheaper.
5:09 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
In article <BANLkTi=-0VR2fJMZKd-xyO66CLDr2ScRCw at mail.gmail.com>,
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes:
[...] Now (largely because issues of
practicality are irrelevant), the price of a 1977/1978
chiclet-keyboard PET is several times that of a 1978 Graphic or
Business-keyboard PET.
Isn't it ironic that the damned chiclet keyboard is the defining
visual/memory characteristic of the PET?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
5:05 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
In article <4DB0817A.9000806 at brouhaha.com>,
Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> writes:
Fred Cisin wrote:
Toshiba netbook chiclet keyboards: hated by everyone.
I am very happy with my Toshiba netbook, except for the chiclet
keyboard. Not only is it a poor feel, its the first keyboard I've
used in a long time that actually loses my keystrokes.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that
people actually
objected to.
Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with
normal keys on later models.
TRS-80 Color Computer chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced
with normal keys on later models.
TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys
on later 99/4A model.
IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys
on replacement keyboard
Apple chiclet keyboards: loved by all the Apple fanboys. Not only have
they not been replaced with normal keys on later models, but now other
notebook vendors have copied them!
Bletch!
5:14 p.m.
New subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)
Fred Cisin wrote:
> and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually
> objected to.
[...]
There's a REASON that typewriter keys weren't
just flat square things.
The concavity of the key tops made the typist's fingertips self-center
rather than wandering off. Chiclet keyboard don't do that, and are an
abomination.
Do you conside the HP9185 and HP8825/9831 keyboards to be 'chicklets'?
They havea very short travel and low profile keys, but one thing HP did
right was to make the keys dished in the centre to locate your fingers.
The HP9825 keybaord was replaced by a full-travel one later one. I assume
the 9831 one was too, but that machine is hard enoguh to find as it is.
-tony
4874
days inactive
4876
days old
22 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
alexeyt＠freeshell.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brianlanning＠gmail.com -
christian_liendo＠yahoo.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
terry＠webweavers.co.nz -
trag＠io.com