30 Sep
2009
30 Sep
'09
3:15 p.m.
I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic
computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every
adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing
precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software
that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest
part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers
in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.?
1 Oct
1 Oct
1:17 a.m.
Murray McCullough wrote:
I read an article today in 'New Scientist'
entitled 'Innovation: Classic
computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every
adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing
precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software
that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest
part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers
in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.?
Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question:
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech>
Cheers,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
7:57 a.m.
In article <4AC46593.7000103 at philpem.me.uk>,
Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> writes:
the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech>
Well, this part is just plain uninfomed:
"Science museums around the world have long collected computing
kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing
collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working
order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley
Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz
Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany."
Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head
without even googling.
Speaking of which, I need to visit that museum in Montana before it
gets too cold.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Murray McCullough wrote:
> I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation:
Classic
> computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much
every
> adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing
> precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software
> that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest
> part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputer
s
in 5 yrs., 10
yrs.?
Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question:
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-computers-on-
11:16 a.m.
Well, this part is just plain uninfomed:
"Science museums around the world have long collected computing
kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing
collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working
order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley
Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz
Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany."
Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head
without even googling.
And the HNF doesn't do anything to get something running afaik....
2:16 p.m.
Well, this part is just plain uninfomed:
"Science museums around the world have long collected computing
kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing
collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working
order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley
Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz
Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany."
Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head
without even googling.
There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A.
11:03 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 05:16:19PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers
but have large collections. For instance a Cray-1 is on exibit in the
Stockholm technical museum and there is a _very_ nice setup of a Cray-2
in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris.
/P
Well, this part is just plain uninfomed:
"Science museums around the world have long collected computing
kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing
collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working
order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley
Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz
Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany."
Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head
without even googling.
There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A.
2 Oct
2 Oct
11:13 p.m.
Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
Doesn't the National Museum of American History keep a sizeable
collection too?
Peace... Sridhar
There are
15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A.
Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers
but have large collections. For instance a Cray-1 is on exibit in the
Stockholm technical museum and there is a _very_ nice setup of a Cray-2
in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris. 
11:42 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sridhar Ayengar" <ploopster at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: Classic computers endangered!
Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
Doesn't the National Museum of American History keep a sizeable collection
too?
Peace... Sridhar
Keeping machines is good, archiving the software, operating manuals, and
production documentation is better, but having people around that can
actually use those resources to keep those machines running (understanding
how they work and fixing them as needed with spare parts) would be the best.
How many museums actually have people working there that can do anything
outside of stack, catalog, prop up items, and dust them?
Cars basically operate today like they did in the 1920's , but computers
There are
15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A.
Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers but
have large collections. For instance a Cray-1 is on exibit in the
Stockholm technical museum and there is a _very_ nice setup of a Cray-2
in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris. from the 50's are nothing like today's machines
(input/output/construction)
so it would be harder to get them setup and running.
3 Oct
3 Oct
9:39 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
Doesn't the National Museum of American History keep a sizeable collection
too?
There was the last three times I visited the place, admittedly more
than 5 years ago now.
I was amused by the fact that several of the items they chose to
display were also items I happened to own (not the Apple I, though ;-)
ISTR an 18-bit DEC machine - perhaps a PDP-15? - off in a corner after
the first ramp or two.
-ethan
There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A.
Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers but
have large collections... 
2 Oct
2 Oct
2 a.m.
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Richard wrote:
Well, this part is just plain uninfomed:
"Science museums around the world have long collected computing
kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing
collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working
order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley
Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz
Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany."
Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head
without even googling.
And at least the HNF does not restore/run their machines, they don't even
display them in a logical manner (and it's Paderborn, not Padaborn ;-))
OTOH our little museum has been collecting/restoring etc. for much
over ten years now. And of course, almost everything on display is
functional (people don't want to see dead junk, they are much more
impressed by a demonstration).
Christian
1 Oct
1 Oct
11:24 a.m.
I think we will be the ones to carry on microcomputer history, and I'm sure
there will always be groups who will discuss this and restore equipment like
we do now, the same way that there aren't too many auto museums, but all
over the world, there are plenty of personal collections and museums in
peoples backyards.
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Philip Pemberton
<classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>wrote:
Murray McCullough wrote:
Cheers,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
I read an article today in 'New
Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic
computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much
every
adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing
precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software
that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest
part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early
ucomputers
in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.?
Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question:
<
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-computers-on…
1:59 p.m.
Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article
in question:
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech>
The photographs have a couple of curiousities in them. Firstly, they say
that the PDP8 line started in 1965 (which sounds aout right), but the
picture is of a much later (early 70's) PDP8/e (which uses TTL ICs, not
discrete transistors).
Secondly, in the picture of the HP250, am I correct that there's a
Casio AL2000 calculator sitting on it (maybe badged Commodore, like the
AL1000 sometimes was). Surely any HP owner would have had an HP9815 or
HP9825 there...
I am also getting somewhat fed up with this idea that classic computers
are difficult to repair (or worse 'can't be repaired'). In general it is
easier to find parts for older machines that new ones. Most of the bits
(at least those that are likely to fail) for 1960's and 1970's machines
are not hard to find. But just try finding components for 1990's
machines. There is also (IMHO) no shortage of people who can repair said
old machines.
What there is is a shortage of owners who are prepared to pay for such
repairs. Serveral times I've been contacted by organisations who what a
<foo> (normally an HP of some flavour) fixed, but 'there's no budget for
it'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want me to fix the machine,
I charge. Needless to say, I don't charge for advice on lists like this
one which depend on the exchange of information (I consider the
information and interest I get from this list easily repays me).
-tony
2:22 p.m.
On Oct 1, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
It is correct.
Here's a
link to (what appears to be) the article in question:
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-
computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech>
The photographs have a couple of curiousities in them. Firstly,
they say
that the PDP8 line started in 1965 (which sounds aout right), but the
picture is of a much later (early 70's) PDP8/e (which uses TTL ICs,
not
discrete transistors).
1970, yes. There aren't many other models around to photograph,
though, comparatively speaking.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
3:09 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:23 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Classic computers endangered!
On Oct 1, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
It is correct.
Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a (but we're always looking). The
8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according to New Scientist, we
don't even exist. :-)
Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question:
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-
computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech>
The photographs have a couple of curiousities in them. Firstly,
they say
that the PDP8 line started in 1965 (which sounds aout right), but the
picture is of a much later (early 70's) PDP8/e (which uses TTL ICs,
not
discrete transistors).
1970, yes. There aren't many other models around to photograph,
though, comparatively speaking.
-Dave
4:09 p.m.
On Oct 1, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Ian King wrote:
Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a
(but we're
always looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of
course, according to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-)
I've been looking for an 8/i for, quite literally, twenty years.
I have seen precisely ONE in the flesh. I assure you they're quite
uncommon. ;)
(Now be careful Ian, for if you disagree, I'll take it as an offer
for you to find one for me! ;))
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:41 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
?I've been looking for an 8/i for, quite
literally, twenty years. ?I have
seen precisely ONE in the flesh. ?I assure you they're quite uncommon. ;)
I've only seen one as well - of course, it's one I see all the time
since it's mine...
I haven't seen any in person anywhere else - I'd also go with
"uncommon" since not that many were made, and they weren't as portable
as, say, the -8/L (of which I've seen half a dozen).
I think the one model I've never seen in person is the -8/f. Seen a
few of the -8/e and a couple -8/m, but not the -8/f.
-ethan
9:12 p.m.
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:48 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Classic computers endangered!
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ian King wrote:
Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a
(but we're always
looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according
to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-)
Is there a reason you don't have an -8/a?
Zane
9:13 p.m.
We just haven't found one in decent condition at a decent price... and it hasn't
been a priority. (I have one in my personal collection, and, well, it's a computer.
With *no* blinkenlights.) Now if you have a PDP-11/70, or an IBM 360/67.... :-) -- Ian
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:48 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Classic computers endangered!
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ian King wrote:
Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a
(but we're always
looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according
to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-)
Is there a reason you don't have an -8/a?
Zane
8:26 p.m.
Tony wrote:
Secondly, in the picture of the HP250, am I correct
that there's a
Casio AL2000 calculator sitting on it (maybe badged Commodore, like
the
AL1000 sometimes was).
Yup, it's an AL-2000 all right. No way to tell (I tried to save the
image and zoom in but the resolution isn't high enough) if it's Casio or
Commodore-badged (or even possibly Sperry/Remington).
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/casal2k.html
9:46 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I am also getting somewhat fed up with this idea that
classic computers
are difficult to repair (or worse 'can't be repaired'). In general it is
easier to find parts for older machines that new ones. Most of the bits
(at least those that are likely to fail) for 1960's and 1970's machines
are not hard to find. But just try finding components for 1990's
machines.
Agreed for many parts of 1990s machines, but as for 1960s and 1970s
DEC machines in particular (the subject I know more about than
others), there are a few parts here and there that are getting
difficult to find without robbing them from other machines - Omnibus
buffers come to mind first, and certain parts from the -8/i and -8/L
era, like the 74H40 or the 7482. They aren't complete unobtanium yet,
but they are nowhere near as easy to find as they were 10 years ago.
Mostly, though, for that era, I find that 7474s, 7400s, and one or two
other TTL parts are the most likely to turn up with one or more bad
gates when I start debugging things made from M-series modules. Those
are not hard to find, and not difficult at all to replace.
-ethan
5 Oct
5 Oct
12:51 p.m.
Agreed for many parts of 1990s machines, but as for
1960s and 1970s
DEC machines in particular (the subject I know more about than
others), there are a few parts here and there that are getting
difficult to find without robbing them from other machines - Omnibus
buffers come to mind first, and certain parts from the -8/i and -8/L
era, like the 74H40 or the 7482. They aren't complete unobtanium yet,
but they are nowhere near as easy to find as they were 10 years ago.
Sure, some parts are getting _hard_ to find, but that's not the same as
'impossible'. Geting a replacement '95 shift register for an HP
calculator was non-trivial, but a lot easier than finding a part for a
1990's PC. There are of course many work-arounds if you don;'t mind minor
kludges -- one of the M-series boards in my RK11C has a dead-bugged
74LS83 (IIRC) replacing a dead 7482. Works fine. Things like that.
-tony
1:26 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Since I have a small number of 74LS83s in my parts bins, I might have
to try that if I end up verifying that I have a dead 7482 on one of my
M220s (from an -8/L, in my case).
I think I've seen 74LS83s for sale somewhat recently (at Unicorn or
some similar place).
-ethan
Agreed for
many parts of 1990s machines, but as for 1960s and 1970s
DEC machines in particular (the subject I know more about than
others), there are a few parts here and there that are getting
difficult to find without robbing them from other machines - Omnibus
buffers come to mind first, and certain parts from the -8/i and -8/L
era, like the 74H40 or the 7482...
...There are of course many work-arounds if you don;'t mind minor
kludges -- one of the M-series boards in my RK11C has a dead-bugged
74LS83 (IIRC) replacing a dead 7482. Works fine. Things like that.
6 Oct
6 Oct
2:02 p.m.
Since I have a small number of 74LS83s in my parts
bins, I might have
to try that if I end up verifying that I have a dead 7482 on one of my
M220s (from an -8/L, in my case).
I can't remember if it will _always_ replace a '82 (there may be enable
pins that I've forgotten or something). I can check if you like.
I think I've seen 74LS83s for sale somewhat recently (at Unicorn or
some similar place).
The '283 is much the same device with a saner pinout (power pins in the
corners), so you could probably use that too
-tony
2:46 p.m.
On 10/6/09, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
If you wish. I can check, too. It would be specifically for
repairing a DEC M220 register module for a PDP-8 of the era, so not a
general case there, either.
I think I just ran across a couple of those earlier this year. I'll
have to go see what's in my cabinets. I'm not especially worried
about the 7482s in particular going bad, but I do have more than one
CPU that uses M220 modules, and I'd feel better if I could replace any
component on that board without having to scramble (and pay too much
in shipping, etc).
I'll have to go check the printset, but it wouldn't surprise me that
the 7482 is also used in the PDP-11/20. Whatever adder chip is used
there, I should have a few of _those_ on hand, too (that machine is
one of my next restoration projects).
-ethan
Since I have a
small number of 74LS83s in my parts bins...
I can't remember if it will _always_ replace a '82 (there may be enable
pins that I've forgotten or something). I can check if you like. I think
I've seen 74LS83s for sale somewhat recently (at Unicorn or
some similar place).
The '283 is much the same device with a saner pinout (power pins in the
corners), so you could probably use that too 
1 Oct
1 Oct
5:45 a.m.
I read an article today in 'New Scientist'
entitled 'Innovation: Classic
computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every
adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing
precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software
that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest
part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers
in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.?
I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the torch,
once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-)
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Man With the Golden Gun" ----------------------
7:45 a.m.
On Thursday 01 October 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Indeed. :)
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
I read an
article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation:
Classic computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing:
"Pretty much every adult alive today has seen computers change the
world, but we are doing precious little to celebrate the influence
of the computers and software that created our society." Indeed!
Are we failing to preserve the earliest part of microcomputing
history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers in 5 yrs., 10
yrs.?
I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the
torch, once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-)
9:13 p.m.
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Don't we have to grow a beard and get a "real computer" first?
http://tomayko.com/writings/that-dilbert-cartoon
Jim "mumbles something about the list telling him he can;t be one of
them until he's programmed a machine on a *REAL* TTY, where TTY involved
something mechanical" Brain
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X)
brain at jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
Home: http://www.jbrain.com
I read an
article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic
computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every
adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing
precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software
that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest
part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers
in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.?
I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the torch,
once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-)
9:42 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
When "that cartoon" first came out 15ish years ago, I printed it out,
hung it above my desk, and taped a nickle to it.
Nobody who visited me ever said a peep about it.
-ethan
I like to think us fresh-faced young
whippersnappers will carry the torch,
once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-)
Don't we have to grow a beard and get a "real computer" first?
http://tomayko.com/writings/that-dilbert-cartoon
1:47 p.m.
part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org
discuss early ucomputers
in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.?
Doesn't cctalk/cctech alread discuss 'early' microcomputers? I put in
the quotes becasue some quite recent ones would appear to be on-topic.
23 years ago a friend and I realised that while (at that time) museums,
etc were preserving some very early computer stuff, nothing was being
done aout the more recent machines (minicomputers, micros, etc) and that
unless something was done then 30 years fo computer history was going to
vanish. The result was that our houses became full of old computers...
-tony
5325
days inactive
5331
days old
29 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brain＠jbrain.com -
c.murray.mccullough＠gmail.com -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
evan＠snarc.net -
hachti＠hachti.de -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
jlobocki＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
rickb＠bensene.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com