On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. Windows key? What Windows key? ;) --Chuck

impression Mouse- I don't like the Model "M" keyboard. It's a bit like wanting a tracker organ rather than my Yamaha EL90. The keys require significant pressure to operate and if you are not used to it its actually hard work. I am not really used to this Lenovo Thinkpad T410 keyboard, but the Thinkpad laptop keyboards haven't really altered For a long time, even though IBM sold the business to Lenovo. Dave G4UGM

On 5/31/2016 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: Interesting observations. I learned to type on both an Apple II and a Brother electric typewriter (kinda like a daisywheel printer with a keyboard).... but I'll never forget the first time I laid hands on the original IBM PC keyboard. The quality of that feel! The quality of that sound! I didn't like the machine but I loved that spacious keyboard. Many years later, it was nostalgia for that feel and sound that led me to connecting the 1994 model M I'm still using today, on any PC I use. Any other keyboard just won't do. - J.

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: Royal I had a problem with touch-typing. My little finger wasn't strong enough to casually lift the entire mechanism. So, for a capital 'F', instead of a little finger and the key, it was my whole right hand on the right shift while I pressed that key. My father got an IBM electric (LONG before Selectric) at Goodwill. Enormous black heavy thing, that smelled like IBM electro-mechanical gear. It took a lot of work to get it and keep it working. When I was in college, those disposable Smith Corona portable elctrics came out. Later, the selectrics were just amazing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: I did, a little. Also, baritone, flute, and tuba, until they realized that I wasn't exaggerating about how bad my hearing is. (my sister plays French Horn and alphorn, with occasional other brass, such as baritone, and a left-handed flugle-horn) but a piano key, an octave away, was not the same amount of force that it took on the manual Royal to get upper case - the entire mechanism had to be lifted. By the time that my little finger muscles built up, I was solidly in the habit of using my other hand. And then it felt strange to have shift keys that only took the same force as a regular key. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

I just broke one of the pins on the ps2 connector on my model M :( Otherwise I would be using it on my headless server when it doesn't boot and needs a console to rescue it. -- Greg On 31 May 2016 6:36 pm, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm right there with you. I have three model M keyboards, including the M5-2 with colored keys intact. I'm a keyboard nut along with a lot of other list members. I would echo what others have said about it's heavy key weight vis-a-vis other modern high end keyboard such as those based on MX blue switches. It's a little on the "pounding" side which will actually slow you down if you are a touch typist. However, the positive feedback from the buckling spring design can make you faster (because you become sensitive to the tiny 'click' and thus release quickly after that feedback). As far as a PS/2 keyboard they are extremely well built gear. However, these days the Model M is no longer my favorite. The Cherry MX blue switches are superior, IMHO. The main reason being their lower resistance. However, the key caps can also make a big difference. Low weight keys pitched at the wrong angle will still be hard to push, for example. I won't list out the embarrassing number of keyboards I've owned. However, just for posterity my favorites are: 1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches 2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches 3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches Here's why: 1. It's not the bling/colors, it's the switches. My only complaint is that the keys are slightly more scalloped than I'd like. Other than that, it's a pretty awesome (USB only) keyboard. 2. This is the best Cherry-based keyboard I've encountered. There is some kind of wonderful substance on the keys that makes them continually tacky. For whatever reason, the key weight feels slightly lighter than other MX blue based rigs. I feel that anything beyond the MX blue keywieght is "way too much". This keyboard nails it. 3. Their new model with "green" switches is outrageously light. I can type faster on this keyboard than any other I've tried. However, it requires a bit more care than the Orion, for example. -Swift

It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: I only use Model M keyboards. I have one for my Linux box, one for my Mac, and one for the office Mac. I have about five more sitting in the closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards in storage. The only Model M I'm upset over not getting [1] is the one with the APL symbols on the keys. -spc [1] I was at a Ham fest about a decade ago and my friend snapped up that keyboard before I even saw it. Grrrrr ...

On 05/31/2016 04:31 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: One keyboard that I didn't mind using for quite some time was one from NCR GmhH, for their 286 PC. Made by Cherry, with F1-F10 down the left side, where they belong and F11-F32 across the top. Nice feel, but lacking "real" F11 and F12 keys--the top row just emits codes for Ctrl-F1-10 and Alt-F1-10. Were it not for that, I'd probably still be using one today. I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. --Chuck

On 01/06/2016 01:17, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: Agreed, it's the only way to make them... Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps. Very interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - which luckily were very rarely. -- Pete

Since we are moaning about real hardware, is there anything available these days that comes even close to the Logitech ergonomic three button mouse from the mid-late 1990s? The sculpted to fit in your hand model? Before the scroll wheel abomination had been invented? They were a joy to behold, let alone use. I suspect most people here still use the middle mouse button on a regular basis; I'm surprised there isn't more hue and cry about their demise :-) I spend a lot of time using Plan 9, and - on Unix-ish systems - acme. Both of those are simply untenable without B2 on the mouse. The enthusiasts have found a few holdouts - primarily an HP 3-button mouse. But it's made of plastic, and has no mass. The Logitech had *body* to it. You *knew* where it was going when you moved it, and it was comfortable to use all day long. Surprisingly, the closest replacement I found for the big beast was a (Kingston?) bluetooth travel mouse I bought about 10 years ago. It was quite tiny, but that meant it fit very comfortably under my palm. It had the eeevil scroll wheel, but it was very small in proportion to the middle button, so as to be just slightly annoying. And the mouse was dense! It had mass, even before you fed it the pair of AA batteries. Sadly, the buttons on it have packed it in. I think I'll hold a wake for it this weekend ;-) --lyndon P.S. Who has the patent on the logitech mouse? Maybe we can get a Kickstarter campaign going to buy it and roll out another production run!?

No, that "button" in the middle is B2, as anyone from the original days of the 3-button mouse knows. The perversions that Microsoft foisted on the masses aside, on a real three button mouse, the buttons are numbered 1 through 3, from index to ring finger. The bastardized Microsoft 2-button mouse has no canonical mapping to the 3-button variant.

On 5/31/2016 10:42 PM, Mike Stein wrote: Compromise: Keyboards with cords and tailless mice.

anyone remeber the 2 button logitech mouse mouse? On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

geneb wrote: Oh yes, the Logitech Trackman Marble FX can beat it :-) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

On 06/01/2016 07:18 AM, geneb wrote: (They can be had for less in other places) I'll venture that the ball in my CH DT225 *is* a standard billiards cue ball. --Chuck

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: That design looks very similar to the Kensington I had in the early to mid 90's. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

On 01/06/2016 02:58, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: Absolutely, it's indispensable in Unix systems I use, and used a lot in Windoze too. My favourite mouse is a Logitech VX Nano; it has a scroll wheel that can be set to freewheel for very fast scrolling, or set as normal, but very importantly it also has a real middle button just behind the scroll wheel. They're no longer made, but the Logitech MX Anywhere is very similar. I have one VX and four MXs, and my only regret is that there isn't a PS/2 version to use on my SGIs so I need an adapter. -- Pete Pete Turnbull

On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote: I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but laser-engraved and should be very durable. --Chuck

Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear on the legends.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. -Swift

A 7/32" or 5.5mm socket or nutdriver will do the job nicely. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Corlett Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote: My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not having a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple job once I'm actually in.

I have a couple of Model M boards, and a Unix layout Unicomp clone (with Ctrl and caps lock in the right positions). My favorite by far though is the 5150 and XT 83-key. Much heavier, and the sound and feel are more to my liking, as well as the left side function keys. I really want to get an XT to PS/2 adapter and one of those boards (model F, if memory serves), but prices are so high that other expenses always seem to take precedence. I was never bothered in the slightest by the small enter key or the need to use num lock regularly. -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: How do you paste text then? And there are quite a few applications that use the middle button to scroll the visible layer (e.g. gschem), or to open a link in a new tab (e.g. Opera, Firefox); very comfortable. I definitely need the middle button very often each day. As a side note, I use only "Model M" keyboards even on current PCs (although none of my IBM keyboards are labelled "Model M", but 1391403; can someone please clarify the origin of this designation?), and the good old Logitech M-Series mice (my current office PC has the _serial_ version) Christian

On 06/01/2016 01:49 AM, Christian Corti wrote: I'm keyboard-oriented--Ctrl-V, where I've copied using Ctrl-X or Control-C . At random, I've flipped over the 4 keyboards nearest me to read thelabel. All say "Model M" along with the plant number. The part and FRU varies; the one I'm typing this on is 1391401 for the part number. --Chuck

It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: An interesting thing about Firefox on Linux [1] is that once you select the text of a webpage, you have some interesting options: TIMESTAMP TARGETS MULTIPLE text/html text/_moz_htmlcontext text/_moz_htmlinfo UTF8_STRING COMPOUND_TEXT TEXT STRING text/x-moz-url Those are the selection types available via X Windows [2]. "text/html" returns the HTML of the selected portion of the page. "text/x-moz-url" will return the URL of the page. "UTF8_STRING" will return the selected text as UTF-8 encoded data. Because of this, I wrote a command line program to query the current selection (assumed to be a webpage) and obtain not only the selected portion, but the URL and from there, request the page to extract the title element [3]. All in a single command. -spc (The X Selection method is quite flexible) [1] Or used to be; I haven't done this since I switched to using Mac OS-X for web browsing. [2] I won't go into depth of how this works right now---just be aware that you can chose what type of data to obtain from the selection owner. [3] A typical operation when blogging about a web page.

-----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 8:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboards and Mice (was Model M, NEC ProSpeed) Okay, time for a big gripe about the Model M--the *&^!~ "feet" that can be snapped out to raise the top a bit. They get old and brittle and the usual solvent cement (methylene dichloride) doesn't touch it. I much prefer the supports on the Model F, but you can't have everything. Has anyone located a source for these things. Maybe 3D printing? --Chuck Clickykeyboards.com has replacement "feet" for the Model M. You can email him at sales at clickykeyboards.com. Cindy

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: And all my keyboards say "MANUFACTURED IN UNITED KINGDOM" along with the date of production (ranging from 1987 to 1992). Maybe only the US models are labelled "Model M" ? Christian

I have 6 model M's around at last count, plus many more for parts. Good keyboard, i set them up at the 2 front computers at work. On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com> wrote:

On 05/31/2016 11:49 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: Dunno, I use Linux. But I used to get calls from the Indian subcontinent telling me that my Windows computer was showing suspicious action. I tried to comply with their instructions, but the first stumbling block was the Windows key. It only got worse after that... Well, I still have a couple of red "Panic" keys that fit Cherry keyboards... --Chuck

I think I'm using an M. The label was removed long ago. At home I have a couple of the version that came with an industrialized version that went with ditto rack mount PS/2 of some flavor. The company I worked at was buying around 20 a month and even though the product they went into never used the keyboard or mouse, you got the who package. Keyboard, mouse, PS/2 on floppies even though it had a CD reader, etc etc. The only thing different on the keyboard and mouse was the color was a dark gray. On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

Typing on a Model M in my room hooked up to a Belkin SOHO KVM and 4 modernish machines (PS/2 to USB adapter). Also have a KVM setup in the lab with a Model M. And a stack of spares thanks to a local recycler years ago. Back in the 90's I used Northgate keyboards. I also have Apple Extended II keyboard on a DR.Bott ADB KVM in the lab if that helps. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NEC ProSpeed 386 On 05/31/2016 10:15 AM, Chris Hanson wrote: It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. Windows key? What Windows key? ;) --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote: I'm not a huge Apple zealot to the point of wearing black turtlenecks every day, but I gotta hand it to them, they have been a big innovator with keyboard design. They (almost?) always design their own keyboards. They have had big fat key'd ones and tiny thin aluminum designs, ones with huge borders and ones with nearly zero borders, but they've always tried to put a little bit of pinache therein. Successful or not, I respect them a lot for trying, and several of their designs are very nice. I've never known them to create "clackety" keyboards with mechanical switches, but then again there are only two groups who care: gamers and curmudgeons (*grin*). I made my choice to be an "IT guy" a long time ago, I might as well do it in style and comfort with the most beautiful gear I can get. Thus, the IT gear I'm least afraid to drop money on is my keyboard and monitor. Okay cash on keyboards in my case is a vulgar embarrassment (let's just not talk about that *ugh*), but monitors I only buy once every few years (if that much). When I do buy one, I choose *very* carefully. That was the one thing that never really shone in the SGI world, despite some cool fru-fru in other places. I have a granite slab keyboard and an SGI USB keyboard. Neither is anything special (and the USB one has DOMES *gasp*... the horror). However, SGI did have the "dials and buttons" and "Spaceball" interfaces. So what they lose in style points for lack of cool keyboard designs I have to re-award for their other cool input devices. -Swift

On 2016-05-31 7:16 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: SGI was not the only ones to have input devices like dial, LPFK, tablets with cursors or stylus, and space ball every company that made graphical workstations had such devices, in fact the first three probably predate SGI. One of my books has a picture of a IBM 2250 graphics terminal announced in 1964 complete with LPFK ("buttons"). The space ball came along later than the others. Paul.

On 1 June 2016 at 00:16, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote: But that's the point. This here Extended II has them, as did the Extended I before it. (I have one of them too, but I couldn't find it in my storage unit in London to bring it over here to the Czech Republic.) I think the earlier ones do too, but they, although pleasant to type on, have weird key layouts, especially of the cursor keys. The Extended I & II have a PC-like layout, which minimised the mental effort of switching between my Mac, my PC laptops and my IBM Model-M equipped Raspberry Pi. "Inverted T" FTW! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote: Cool. I didn't know about those early mechanical models. I didn't wake up to macs until about the Mac II days. I did have a friend with a IIGS. I remember playing the Bards' Tale series on there. So, I must have used it before. I was disappointed that they didn't take the IIGS further as a hardware platform, but that's only because I loved my SNES (and yes, also my Genesis). IIRC, the IIGS has the same processor as a SNES with a 16bit bus, no? I like the design of the GS, too. -Swift

I believe so. I?m typing this on my Extended II keyboard. I bought it when I bought my PowerMac 8500/180 in January ?97. When I purchased my G4/450 (the second sold in the area) the keyboard was such a joke, I immediately invested in an ADB-to-USB converter (as in the next day). I now use it on my Mac Pro. :-) I have to admit, I rather like the keyboard that came with my SGI O2. Zane

-----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 6:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) On 1 June 2016 at 20:57, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote: Yeah, I think all Apple keyboards /up until/ the Extended II had keyswitches -- then they switched to cheaper ones, like most of the industry. Interesting -- I didn't know the SNES had a 65816! I've not touched a //GS since they were new, but yes, they were lovely machines. Even if somewhat crippled -- they ran the 65816 at about 2.something MHz, when even the early ones could do circa 10-12 MHz and later ones 20-30MHz, AIUI. There are alleged technical reasons, but the main one, I think, and the reason for the machine's demise, is that it just competed with the Mac too much. The IIgs came out in 1986, the Mac II in 1987. So when the IIgs shipped, there were no colour-capable Macs (and their sound wasn't that impressive either). The IIgs looked like a plausible rival, and could have been expanded into an Amiga-alike fairly readily -- and thus threaten the still-new Macintosh. Damned shame, really. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) The Apple Extended Keyboard II also has mechanical switches, made by Alps. I have several of them. Cindy