On Fri, 4 Feb 2011, John Foust wrote: True enough. But I have a big truck (phwoar) and am irrationally determined. Besides. This weather can't last much longer. Right? Right? - JP

On 2/6/2011 6:32 PM, Richard wrote: Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost 7.99, but cost 16 for no reason. Jim Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.50 Feb-05-11 16:01:37 PST Member Id: 1971stephens ( 421Feedback score is 100 to 499) US $15.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.00 Feb-05-11 16:01:23 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $14.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $14.00 Feb-05-11 16:01:11 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $13.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $13.00 Feb-05-11 16:00:17 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $12.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $12.00 Feb-05-11 15:59:56 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $11.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $11.00 Feb-02-11 18:51:47 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $10.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $9.50 Feb-02-11 18:51:29 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $9.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $8.50 Feb-02-11 18:51:16 PST <me> ( 421 ) US $7.99 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Starting Price US $7.99 Jan-29-11 19:39:42 PST

...and neither does bidding straight up and early. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

In article <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me at inbox.com>, N0body H0me <n0body.h0me at inbox.com> writes: The only person who complains about "driving up prices" are the people who aren't willing to bid enough to win the item. Sniping also "drives up prices" if you don't win. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

On 07/02/2011 23:15, Dan Gahlinger wrote: I think I decided long ago that there are two types of people involved in the sniping / no sniping debate 1) the snipers who must have the item (as cheaply as possible) and to hell with anyone else, it almost seems to me that the winning the item is more important the item itself at least to *some* snipers. 2) the non-snipers who decide what an item is worth and what they are prepared to pay and proxy bid that, if they don't get it will then well someone else thought it was worth more than them. when the two cross each other's path they are not going to see eye-to eye as they feel that the other side is doing them out of what they want. Personally I don't snipe, I may well delay bidding till the last day, but generally I'll only bid if no one else has or it's a buy it now auction. I also don't sit watching the auction I'll wait for ebay's notification emails and generally these days I'll win. Cheers. Phill.

I wonder if e-bays's policies contribute towards angst from both buyer and seller? Here in NZ e-bay has not caught on, except for overseas sales. Our local auction site is Trade Me and it's hugely popular. Unlike e-bay, with Trade Me when you list an item, there is no "insertion fee" calculated on the amount you list the item for. From memory there may be a tiny nominal flat fee for listing but Trade Me charges you on what the item actually sells FOR. If it doesn't sell, you can relist three times without a charge. With ebay there is a financial incentive for the seller to list low, hoping the bids will bring it up to the reserve. On Trade me, the common practice (99% of items) is to list your goods at a price you would be happy to receive and make the sale no reserve. Buyers then know if they bid then they have a chance at getting the item and they also have an indication of what the seller thinks it's worth. Sellers know that their goods will not disappear at a price lower than they value the goods themselves. For example, at the moment I have an Osborne 1a on TradeMe at $NZ 150 no reserve. I wouldn't let it go for anything under $150. If it doesn't sell, too bad. I'll try again later. I've only lost my nominal listing fee (about $1 or so). If I get more than $150 because the demand is there then that's a bonus. This doesn't stop the practice of sniping of course, but I do think in this regard the pricing policy of Trade Me is better, certainly from a sellers point of view. Terry

Of coursei it does. If I (early bid) $50 for an item with an opening bid of $5, say, and somebody snipes me at the last minute with a $20 bid, then the price I have to pay has been driven up. Strange... Obviously I have imagined all the items I've won by bidding early. I don;t get this at all. If I bid early, you can't know what my high bid is (it may well be a _lot_ more tan the openning bid). So you can't be sure ot outbid me if you snipe. Nor can you possibly know how much something is worth to me, so how the heck can you say I've priced it out of the market. -tony

The problem as I see it (also a sniper here) is that you give people ample opportunity to bid big on an item if you bid early, thus driving the price up. You can certainly place a well-intended early bid that is in-the-money (and I have in the past), but that doesn't preclude the possibility of people who are not well-intentioned bidding up an item they had no intention of buying, whether they be an agent working on behalf of the buyer or otherwise. The other case is that people hardly ever use the proxy format of the eBay bidding process even if they bid early. They either don't trust it or don't understand it. I don't trust it personally, not because it's technically flawed, but because of the interaction of other bidders. In practice it seems that people make incremental "max" bids up to their REAL maximum (because most people understand the incremental bidding process used in live auctions), rather than placing their ultimate maximum bid right at the beginning. If you bid late, you are more likely to get the item that you want at a lesser price, simply because you significantly reduce the possibility of shill bidders or subsequent bids at the end. I don't really understand the strategy behind placing an early bid. I might well be willing to pay up to $200 for a particular item, but I'd much rather pay $50 if I can get away with it. :) If you're placing a well-intentioned max bid at the end of the auction or the beginning, the most you're willing to pay is still the same, isn't it? The only cases I can think of that it works in your favor to bid early really is if you place a bid and someone places an identical bid (assuming no subsequent bids) you are the high bidder, and the other is if you're not around to watch the end of the auction. If eBay was more like a single sealed bid that's tabulated at the end of the auction, I think it'd be a better system. The system that's in place now encourages nickel and dime bidding. Or, "man, this thing is going too cheap... hey Bob... bid $150 on this auction for me." A real auction you can see who you're bidding against, in eBay it's hard to do. ________________________________ From: Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 2:29:45 PM Subject: Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! On 2/8/2011 12:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: This is not a function of sniping. If the $20 bidder was an early bidder, you still would have won at the same amount. By definition, assuming snipers would have bid either way, sniping cannot push prices up more than early bidding. If every sniped bidder bid early, either the item sells for the maximum bid placed during round 1, or someone puts in a round 2-n higher maximum bid. Thus, as the time to place 2-n round bids approaches 0 (the snipe), the maximum bid settles on the maximum of round 1 bidders amounts. Jim

On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Richard wrote: What a load of nonsense. With how eBay is setup the only thing that makes any sense is to snipe, and when you snipe, you put in the max you're willing to pay as you have to expect that someone else besides you will be sniping. Zane

On 2/7/2011 8:16 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: Well it has happend ... how do you think he keeps all the *DEMONS* in check, that love fire and brimstone. Ben.

On 08/02/11 05:25, Chris M wrote: Don't forget the Special Hell. The one that's reserved for folks that work for ebay, and people that talk at the theatre. Surely Sarah Palin deserves a little "recognition" too? XD -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: eBay was already in existence, with ~30 people before Meg Whitman was hired on. That isn't MY definition of "create". Although she spent more than anyone has ever spent on any political campaign EVER, there was no B.I.N. and no opportunity to snipe, and she still couldn't buy it. And, she was putting my pension at risk! I must not be participating in auctions that are as vicious as what some of y'all are participating in. I almost always put a token bid in at the beginning, just to let "competing" bidders know that I am interested. I am not desperate enough to "need to win and keep the price down" enough to feel the need to turn it into a "sealed bid" auction (closest to the results of eBay with sniping) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and generally shooting to kill in a cowardly fashion from concealment - AIUI, she's all about that. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote: *Sniping* on eBay has nothing to do w/shooting (or killing) from concealment. It's simply a term. If the person that got beat out didn't bid high enough, that's their problem. I once bid the exact amount someone else did on an item, seconds before it ended, but they were a second or two earlier. Life goes on. It's playing the game. If you were the SELLER and someone sniped your item, you'd be happy. All games have rules. If you've been playing for some period of time, you tend to play better then those who haven't. Life in the big city. It's all a function of who wants it and how bad. It's all fair game. My humble opinion anyway. Ebay really isn't a conventional auction is some respects. Ebay serves as a proxy for each and every bid. Technically even in a real auction sniping goes on. In the last seconds before an item is finalized, someone bids through the roof. It's all the same. I don't eat meat (anymore), certainly don't hunt, nor even kill a stink bug unnecessarily. Shooting wolves from helicopters does seem somewhat cowardly, but ESPECIALLY to other hunters who object to it. All or most hunting is cowardly. The animal doesn't stand a chance. But oftentimes that's how yuck-yucks are raised out in the sticks. To take enjoyment in spilling something's blood. For desperately needed food, well that's a different story.

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith <afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk> wrote: What he said. I've used it, shame-facedly, but it's dishonest and it is an attempt to game the auction system. If I were running eBay or the like, I'd ban it and take measures to block it, such as blocking bidder accounts /have/ to place a realistic max bid earlier and hope. Sniping subverts how auctions work. While it's possible, very occasionally, I do it. Only if I am desperate for something and have reason to suspect it will go for more than I can afford. If I can afford a fair asking price, I bid it, manually. Exactly. As a seller, I am pissed off by snipers. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

This is how our auction site Trade me works here in New Zealand. Its called auto-extend. On 22/02/2011 6:32 AM, "Philip Pemberton" <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote: On 21/02/11 13:58, Liam Proven wrote: Seems the easiest solution would be to extend the auction by a couple of minutes every time someone snipes (up to a given maximum amount of time, say an hour). Which is almost exactly how it works in a real auction: "Going once... going twice..." "Fifty quid!" "Fifty quid to the gentleman in the middle... do I hear fifty-five... going once..." "Fifty-five!" "Would the gentleman in the middle care to counter? Going once, going twice. Sold." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

This entire thread has been discussing ebay in terms that are simply not applicable to the way the site runs. It is more of a site for online sales, similar to Amazon (buy it now on epay) or "let's see what we can get someone to pay" rather than having auctions. With any bidding, you have to have some sort of time limit, of course, both to force the seller to make his mind up what he'll take, and to let prospective buyers know when to expect a decision. But all of the comments are thinking of the auctioneer at the front of the room type auction, and this isn't that. Sniping is a tool that has developed online, but I have seen it in haggling at such events as the TRW swap meet, though with face to face offers on the spot, you can get fist fights. I suspect this grabbing of an item from another without the chance of some recourse is what is causing all the emotion here about sniping on ebay. However, the rules are what they are, ebay hasn't changed them for legal or other reasons, and the simple fact is that if the item is for sale for a variable offer amount, there is no reason on ebay or anywhere else to disclose what you wish to pay until the last second, as it will allow others information to adjust their bidding. Noone on this thread has done anything but describe other sales methods, and still have not given any reason why the sniping is wrong on ebay bid sales. If a seller wishes to get more for an item, they can list the item like I do for a buy it now or offer, on an ongoing basis. It only costs me $0.25 / month to carry my items with asking prices I would like, and anyone is welcome to bid down to any amount they like and if I like it I'll take it. I find that to be a much better model anyway than asking a small amount and hoping someone will give me what I secretly hope to get for it as a seller. And I can immediately close out a sale that way, rather than waiting around for an auction to end. It would be nice if list something at some value and someone would want to pay me more, but the simple fact is I know what things are worth, and doubt that will happen. I'm not looking to set a value on an item in the market as far as a top value. I realize that this does not apply if you have some rare item that you wish to have the market show you what it is worth, but you can start the auction at what you think you want to get, and let an auction take place. Still not unfair to the seller. On 2/21/2011 10:15 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 2/21/2011 7:58 AM, Liam Proven wrote: Hmm, I am a seller, and I don't feel that moved by it. As I see it: * I *chose* to offer my product there. I did my research, I know how the system works. I thus agree to be bound by the "in play" rules when I list my item. * What works against me as a seller works for me as a buyer. Since I use the system both ways, I find the balance equitable. Of course, if you only sell, then this is not true. It seems to me this discussion boils down to: <insert online solution name> claims it is a <insert service type>, but it allows <specified behavior> which is not allowed in a real <insert service type>. Thus, <specified behavior> should be disallowed, as it ruins the <insert service type> experience! In this case, I think you'd have more luck starting a movement to have eBay quit referring to itself as an auction site. In fact, I am not absolutely sure if they actually do continue to refer to themselves that way, but if they do, they'd probably be willing to quit, since they now offer many more sales options. Snipe away, I say! Jim

that's a bit off-based, There's a finite # of people watching any given ebay item too. I've also been in auctions on ebay where there were multiple snipers present (you just know).it comes down to the luck of the timing, but moreso who bid the highest "max" on that last bid. sniping can be a great tool for when auctions end at say 4am, or in some other timezone andyou're not going to sit around trying to calculate when you should be online. when i started ebay, i bid early in the auction, but always lost, no matter what i did. then i started mixing that with sniping, just a single bid near the end.so an early bid and a single late bid with my "max". I still lost, almost every auction, but it helped. I've also been in some very nasty sniping wars for items, it gets ugly ebay isn't perfect, and sniping isn't the ultimate answer, but it does work, and does work well. sniping is still the way to go, if used responsibly, some of the tools are excellent. especially one I used you could set your time to start, the bid,and set a 'ceiling" (max) amount, and it would automatically move up towards that amount,by bidding the next "minimum" high bid up to the max, as time allowed. that works really well and you still get a bit of the luck of the draw. but the bottom line makes it exactly the same as normal bidding,whoever wishes to pay the most still wins. i dont see how that's unfair - someone may always want that item more than you,some moron on ebay may snipe the price up to 10x it's original retail price,so be it. they want it that badly, they can have it.

On Feb 7, 2011, at 9:04 PM, joe lobocki wrote: Oddly enough (and I'm sure other people have different data, I'm just going off what I've observed as an infrequent eBay buyer): I've seen a much higher "failure to pay" rate on snipers. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten sniped on a bid, only to be contacted later by the seller (either unofficially, or officially through eBay's "Second Chance offer"). Sometimes I've seen the seller just relist the item, I bid again, I get sniped again. More than once: by the same non-paying buyer. In some categories (not classic computer related) this failure rate approaches 100%. The only way this is ever going to be resolved is if eBay requires bidders post a deposit for transactions over a certain dollar amount (like $20), which is forever lost if they back out of a deal and they are permanently banned. You know, like a real reputable auction house would typically require. That won't happen, which is increasingly why a lot of "normal" people are now avoiding eBay. It's so rife with fraud and "bad faith actors" (of which PayPal can be included in those descriptions) it's better off just dumping stuff at Goodwill.

On 8 Feb 2011 at 8:28, C Sullivan / A Baumann wrote: The variety and spirit of the old eBay seems to me not to be what it once was (FWIW, I started with eBay before eBay hosted photos and was unpopulated enough that your ID could just be your initials). I miss some of the other specialty auction sites, such as OnSale, where slightly out-of-date IT gear could be purchased at great savings, but that's another story--onSale's bid model--automatic closing extension probably did them in as much as competition from eBay. Nowadays however, I'm just as likely to find an item being offered through conventional retail channels at a better price for non- vintage items. eBay to me, by and large, is just another storefront with lots of "Buy It Now" and not much real auction activity (A lot of auctions start off at virtually the same price as the BIN price, so I wonder why anyone would bother to bid to save $0.50 on a $20 item and risk not getting it.) This was driven home to me the other week after I broke a piece of glass cookware from a set that I've had since 1974. I went looking for a reqplacement and found perhaps 20 offers--not a one of them an auction, but just a storefront for someone's thrift or antique shop all with BIN, no auction. And that's fine--and perhaps more profitable for eBay. I'm grateful for the view sort that says "Price + Shipping low to high", because it gives me my true cost of an item, when shipping can be very expensive--something that other retailers could learn by. So eBay by and large is just another e-storefront for me. It's particularly useful for electronic component purchases--there's nowhere local to buy a handful of TTL chips, but I can get them shipped for next to nothing from Beijing at rock-bottom prices if I'm willing to wait a bit. Mouser and DigiKey probably get the same stuff from China anyway--and their shipping costs more. And yes, on occasion, I do snipe. This originally started as a way to overcome the inequality of a 14.4Kbit internet connection over those bidders with T1 lines. At that speed, it takes a fair amount of time to reload a page just to see if you hold the current high bid. I joined eSnipe when it first started (and that was my fourth sniping package/service), so I still enjoy the original terms of service-- free for any gavel less than $25 and a $100 cap on fees no matter what the final price on expensive items. I'd be an idiot not to use it--I just set the snipe for whatever I'm willing to pay and go away. If I get the item, fine; otherwise there's always tomorrow. Bottom line--for me, sniping, when I use it, is mostly a matter of convenience. There's nothing in this world that I really need other than food, shelter and love. Everything else is negotiable. All the best, Chuck

Yay! Its the sniping thread! -- Will

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:46 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC?

The morality of sniping is somewhat subjective and certainly something that can be legitimately debated. Personally I dislike it but find that I have to do it (manually) to stand a chance. I am interested though in why you think it is illegal; that should be a more black and white matter, either it is or it isn't. Of course the legality or otherwise will also depend on which country you are in, so it would be interesting to know on what basis you think it is illegal and which country your interpretation of the law applies to. It would be surprising though to find that eBay has built an illegal service, I am sure that this would by now have attracted the attention of the legal authorities of the relevant countries (perhaps it has, I don't know). Regards Rob

On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: Surely you realize that it is the frequency, not the voltage that matters.

On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: Go 400Hz or go home. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

In article <4D4FAAFF.4010101 at jwsss.com>, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> writes: I don't care. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. I'm seldom around at the end of an auction to defend a bid anyway. When I bid for items I think hard to myself just how much is this thing worth to me. What is the absolute MAXIMUM I'd pay. Then I'll add a little bit more and put in a bid. I'll then ignore the auction until the system tells me if I've won or lost. If I've won, great. If I've lost, I'm disappointed but someone was simply prepared to pay more than I was. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay

On 2/7/2011 2:31 PM, Richard wrote: Huh? A sniper is only whining when forced to put in an early bid (me) and am not able to snipe. It is useful as the auction goes on to give me a number to put in in the last 5 seconds, and I welcome anything that goes on during the course of the listing, as well as questions answered, etc. I can guage whether an outrageous amount will take it in the case of many questions, and several hundred views, as well as some pre end of auction bidding. Sometimes it is over my price before I do anything, and that is fine. However the only complaint I have posted here is the rats chewing on the wire taking my money when I do have to put in a fairly large number early on. In the case under discussion just bid $16, then maybe $50 (though that would have taken this) and get the item. dollar by dollar raising is either stupid or doing something illegal, both costing me more than a single snipe probably will. I can't read the mind of the iditio who bid the $16, but there is no doubt that if I was sniping and he had bid $9, I would have paid $10, because there were no other bidders. Jim

Ah, excuse me? Yah, I know I promised I wouldn't say anything more, but I have to address this. The only whining I see is coming from people who disapprove of the methods we're forced to use in order to win auctions on e-bay (without taking it in the shorts). You don't like it, then sorry, we just do what what we have to do. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium

I don't even 'add a bit more'. I just bid the maximum I am prepared to pay and that's it. Sometimes I win (meaning I've got something I want for a price I was prepared to pay), sometimes I am outbid (which means somebody else was prepared ot pay more). I don't see the problem. -tony