30 Jul
2007
30 Jul
'07
10:46 a.m.
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting
an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a
modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head
around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e
keyboard to be used on a modern computer.
30 Jul
30 Jul
11:21 a.m.
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement
solution for connecting
an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e
keyboard) to a
modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try
to wrap my head
around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
I've done it a couple of times, only I used a rather
"brute force" method... I was disappointed with the
low quality of modern USB keyboards, and I wanted
something better on my Macintosh. I got ahold of a
Zenith terminal keyboard from a surplus
dealer(unencoded matrix type), and I loved the feel of
the keys (same style keyboard mechanism as in the
Z100).
I took apart a junky Compaq USB keyboard, and traced
out the matrix. Then, I took a dremel tool and cut all
the traces on the back of the Zenith keyboard, and
wired it up in the same matrix as the Compaq keyboard,
and hooked it up to the Compaq keyboard's encoder
board. Voila! Zenith USB keyboard. Of course, I was
originally intending to build a case for it (all I
ever had was the bare keyboard mechanism) but I
haven't gotten around to it. I've used it daily for
the last two years, it's just sitting on the desk, no
case, lote of little wires connecting to the exposed
encoder board. But it works.
I have also done this to an Apple IIe keyboard,
connecting it to a PS/2 style keyboard encoder.
Definitely not the elegant way to do it, but it works,
and it's "easy".
-Ian
12:06 p.m.
I've done it a couple of times, only I used a
rather
"brute force" method... I was disappointed with the
low quality of modern USB keyboards, and I wanted
something better on my Macintosh. I got ahold of a
Zenith terminal keyboard from a surplus
dealer(unencoded matrix type), and I loved the feel of
the keys (same style keyboard mechanism as in the
Z100).
I have to agree about USB keyboards in general, the keyboard that
came with my G5 2x2 actaully isn't that bad (I use it on my IBM Thinkpad), I
just don't like the lack of a place to put junk above the keys.
For my last two Mac's I've used my 10+ year old Apple Extended Keyboard II
via an ADB-to-USB convertor. For several years I also used the ADB II
Mouse (replacing one worn out one), however, I finally switched to USB when
I switched to Mac OS X so I'd have 3 buttons for X-Windows.
Personally I consider mice to be as much of an issue as keyboards, the only
ones I really like are the classic 3-button Logitech mice used on numerous
workstations in the late '90's. I really wish they made a USB one that
size/shape with a scroll wheel.
Zane
12:05 p.m.
On Jul 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Chris Sullivan wrote:
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution
for
connecting an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e
keyboard) to a modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try
to wrap my head around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e
keyboard to be used on a modern computer.
Actually I'd consider it a pretty easy task. I'd get one of the
USB-enabled PIC microcontrollers (16C745 for example) and start with
one of the HID examples. Not difficult at all.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
12:50 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard?)
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:05 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General at looneymail-a5.g.dreamhost.com
Subject: Re: ASCII (Apple //e, specifically) to USB HID keyboard?
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat she was and
how she liked to curl up on your equipment.
Martin Marshall
3:21 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e,
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat she was and
how she liked to curl up on your equipment.
Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has been
made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run over by
an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than
Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well
understand the loss you must feel.
What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who like the
former like the latter...
-tony
3:31 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e,
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, Tony Duell wrote:
<strokes Tarball's furry tummy>
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Sorry to hear
about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat she
was and how she liked to curl up on your equipment.
Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has been
made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run over
by an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than
Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well
understand the loss you must feel.
What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who like the
former like the latter... 
3:35 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e,
Well, I like all animals.
We used to have a tabby cat that liked to come into our back garden and sit in the shade.
He/she knew they wouldn't be pestered by us. Occasionally he/she would dileberately
try to look cute (by raising his/her paw) in order to get some extra tit-bits (usually
chicken).
At present we have some squirrels that regularly (almost daily) come after the nuts we put
out for the birds.
We even had some wild mice living under our shed at one point, a few years ago.
A neighbours rabbit managed to tunnel it's way under the fence before and we have had
plenty of other occasional visitors too (frog/toad, kestrel (feeding on another smaller
bird) and pigeons).
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has been
made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run over by
an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than
Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well
understand the loss you must feel.
What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few people who like the
former like the latter...
-tony
7:52 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e,
On Jul 30, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Thank you. It has been really difficult. She died last Wednesday
of liver cancer. She was the best friend I have ever had. Here are
some funny pics of her:
http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdpcat.jpg
http://www.neurotica.com/misc/stressed-cat.jpg
http://www.neurotica.com/misc/catleg.jpg
I'm sorry to hear about Homer. I'd have chased down that driver
and beaten him to within an inch of his life. Or perhaps a tad further.
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
Sorry to hear about Ophelia - you have mentioned what a good cat
she was and
how she liked to curl up on your equipment.
Let me add my condolences too :-(. Many a late night of hacking has
been
made more pleasant for me by my previous cat 'Homer' (who was run
over by
an idiot who thought his right not to be late was more important than
Homer's right to live) and my current cat 'Pentina'. I can well
understand the loss you must feel. What is it about old computers and cats. Quite a few
people who
like the
former like the latter...
It's because we're people of taste. =)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007
9:24 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e,
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, woodelf wrote:
I think it the other way around ... Cats own people
and the computer. :)
Cats like high places and most classic err warm computers tend to be in tall rack.
. . . and keyboards are to cats what beaded seat cushions are to taxi
drivers
8:43 p.m.
New subject: Ophelia (was RE: ASCII (Apple //e,
Thank you. It has been really difficult. She died
last Wednesday
of liver cancer. She was the best friend I have ever had.
I said the same thing after my big friend Midnight died, 19+ years old, the
best big purring beast cat I'd ever known.
My condolences.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot
12:27 p.m.
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution
for connecting an
ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a modern
computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this
problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e
keyboard to be used on a modern computer.
If you are looking for a PS/2 unit, it is fairly easy to do something
using an Atmel microcontroller and BASCOM basic compiler. USB will be a lot
harder...
12:53 p.m.
On 7/30/07, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br> wrote:
USB isn't a lot harder, unless you are stuck with compiled BASIC. I
agree with an earlier poster (Zane?) - take a $4 AVR, like an
ATMEGA-8, then slap a software USB stack on it, along with enough
local smarts to scan a matrix or handshake in an ASCII byte, then top
it off by fiddling the USB stack to emit HID-compatible packets -
voila, a keyboard.
I've done something _similar_ to this with the usb2lcd interface by
Till Harbaum to connect an HD44780-type LCD panel to "modern" machines
(MacBook Pro running MacOS 10.4, various Intel boxes/laptops running
RedHat Linux, _and_ an XP box). At the core of it is a $4 controller
running at 12MHz, doing the USB protocol in software. The only hitch
I've found so far is that with the MacBook, it seems that I need these
"optional" 3.6V zeners to "cool off" the USB interface which is
spec'ed at 3.3V (I am running it through a USB hub at the moment,
which regenerates inputs to a proper voltage level for the laptop).
Since it's a keyboard the OP is after, one can also do what another
earlier poster did - scavenge a USB keyboard PCB, map the grid, then
wire a keyboard to the grid. I did that with a keyboard last year -
the original fault was a bad cable (broken insulation in the green
wire). I clipped off a few inches of the cable, resoldered it, then
wired the PCB to a 2"x3" protoboard so I could choose which parts of
the matrix to tap off. The final step was to mount the PCB and
protoboard inside an old short-haul modem clamshell case, then stick 5
pushbuttons on the top of the case and wire them to Z, X, C, V, and B
- I now have a fits-in-your-pocket xmms remote keyboard. The only
problem I've had so far was when I plugged it into this MacBook - 10.4
didn't like the controller I re-used, and popped up a requester to hit
the key to the right of the shift. Fortunately, I had already
_mapped_ the "Z" key to my row of pushbuttons and just last night was
running xmms and using the small box to start and stop and forward
through my playlist. (I built this for roadtrips to avoid having to
reach for the keyboard while driving).
So... if it looks too hard to re-jigger an Apple IIe keyboard matrix,
an ATMEGA-8 at 12MHz w/freeware software USB stack is an easy way to
go.
-ethan
Has anybody
come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting an
ASCII keyboard... to a modern
computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this
problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e
keyboard to be used on a modern computer.
If you are looking for a PS/2 unit, it is fairly easy to do something
using an Atmel microcontroller and BASCOM basic compiler. USB will be a lot
harder...
3:12 p.m.
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting
an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a
modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head
around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
I thought, from the Apple //e Technical Manual, that unlike the older
Apple ][s, the keyboard on the //e was just a matrix of switches and the
encoder chip was on the mainboard. So it's not strickly an ASCII keyboard.
The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e
keyboard to be used on a modern computer.
I've not done _anything_ with USB (mainly because none of my computers
have that interface). but I keep on reading about microcontorllers with
USB 'slave' interfaces. It should be possible to use one of those to
either accept ASCII+strobe from an encoded keyboard (e.g. an Apple ][
one) or to scan a matrix of switches.
Note I am not saying it's trivial.
-tony
7:48 p.m.
On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
That might explain why the pin configuration doesn't seem to be
matching what I remember from the Apple II+ and similar.
The Goog isn't being much help with pinouts. Anybody have a pinout
spec for the //e?
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution for connecting
an ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a
modern computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head
around this problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
I thought, from the Apple //e Technical Manual, that unlike the older
Apple ][s, the keyboard on the //e was just a matrix of switches
and the
encoder chip was on the mainboard. So it's not strickly an ASCII
keyboard. I've not done _anything_ with USB (mainly because
none of my computers
have that interface). but I keep on reading about microcontorllers
with
USB 'slave' interfaces. It should be possible to use one of those to
either accept ASCII+strobe from an encoded keyboard (e.g. an Apple ][
one) or to scan a matrix of switches.
That has been mentioned. I'm in the process of getting up to speed
on microcontrollers anyway, so this might be an interesting project.
My main target for the query was to see if anybody has already done
this, so I didn't have to run around re-inventing the wheel. It
appears I'm the first person who's thought about gutting an Apple //e
and putting a modern PC motherboard inside (don't worry, peeps: this
was a very much broken and unhappy //e) for the laughs.
http://www.moremayo.com/projects/apple2/ for pics and discussion.
31 Jul
31 Jul
4:26 a.m.
It
appears I'm the first person who's thought
about
gutting an Apple //e
and putting a modern PC motherboard inside (don't
worry, peeps: this
was a very much broken and unhappy //e) for the
laughs.
You're not the first :) I did it about four years ago.
I put an AMD K62 500 in mine. If you want, I can take
pictures. Hint - when converting the keyboard, use the
"Reset" key for "Delete" Not only is it handy to have
"Delete", but now Control-OpenApple-Reset sends a
Ctrl-Alt-Del...
Contact me off list if you want pointers - this is
pretty off-topic.
-Ian
1:25 p.m.
The Goog isn't being much help with pinouts.
Anybody have a pinout
spec for the //e?
Y
I don't even much care for the Apple ][ line, but I did buy the //e
techref when I saw it...
Here's a pinout for the 26 pin keyboard connector :
1 : Y0 2 : Y1
3 : +5V 4 : Y2
5 : N/C 6 : Y3
7 : N/C 8 : Y4
9 : N/C 10 : Y5
11 : Ctrl/ 12 : Y8
13 : Ground 14 : X0
15 : N/C 16 : X2
17 : X7 18 : X1
19 : X5 20 : X3
21 : X4 22 : Y9
23 : Y6 24 : Shift/
25 : Y7 26 : X6
There is also a keypad connector, which is an 11 pin SIL thing. The
pinout is :
1 : Y0
2 : Y1
3 : Y3
4 : Y4
5 : Y2
6 : Y5
7 : N/C
8 : X7
9 : X4
10 : X6
11 : X5
The Xn and Yn lines are the connections to the 2 'sides' of the switch
matrix. Unfortunately, I can't find anything in the manual which gives a
diagram of which key occupies each postiion in the matrix, and while, in
the //e, the keyboard is scanned by a fairly standard encoder chip, the
outputs of that go into an EPROM which effectively re-maps the keyboard.
So I can't help you there.
I beleive the shift and control keys are connected between the
appropriate pins on the connector and ground, so those are easy...
-tony
30 Jul
30 Jul
4:27 p.m.
Chris Sullivan wrote:
Has anybody come up with a easy to implement solution
for connecting an
ASCII keyboard (or, specifically, an Apple //e keyboard) to a modern
computer system? I'm just beginning to try to wrap my head around this
problem, and it seems... non-trivial...
The goal would be a USB-compliant HID device that would allow a //e
keyboard to be used on a modern computer.
You could use a IIe with a serial output card and a USB serial dongle on
the PC side.
6354
days inactive
6355
days old
19 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
feedle＠feedle.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
martinm＠allwest.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com