15 Feb
2010
15 Feb
'10
8:13 a.m.
Hi All.
I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M
They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing
the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does
anyone have a clue?
Regards,
Pontus.
1:26 p.m.
In article <20100215131333.GA14278 at Update.UU.SE>,
Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> writes:
I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M
They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing
the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does
anyone have a clue?
Since its 1986, the software is most likely custom.
The terminal *could* be a DEC gigi in which case the graphics are
actually generated and displayed directly by the gigi. If its not a
gigi, its just some VT1xx type terminal. The gigi has a keyboard
layout similar to a VT100, but no dedicated monitor and a deeper
keyboard case, somewhat like an Atari or Commodore PC.
However, the gigi has a single display output[*] that is either in text
mode or in graphics mode, so I don't think this is a gigi in this case.
It is more likely that the VAX has a dumb frame buffer in it with the
video cables running out to this monitor.
You never really see a closeup of the terminal or any explanation of
how the image is being displayed, so its hard to say exactly.
[*]
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-IN-002_GIGI_Terminal_In…
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2:07 p.m.
> They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I
think) and claim its
> doing the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is
> used? Does anyone have a clue?
You never really see a closeup of the terminal or any
explanation of how
the image is being displayed, so its hard to say exactly.
If you look closely there's a text terminal of some sort, green screen
with the menu, and the graphic display. The keyboard for the text
terminal looks fairly VT-100ish, though the screen itself doesn't look
quite right to me. (It is hard to see, so ymmv.)
At a guess, there are two serial lines -- vt100ish terminal, tablet --
and a video link from a graphics card (maybe a VT-30?) in the VAX to the
work area.
Perhaps someone should contact the poster of the video to see if they
have a higher resolution copy which could be studied without the
$deityawful youtube compression.
De
8:46 p.m.
In article <e1d20d631002151408o6b2aa109n2edc7b86f2d5dd51 at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
Of course, maybe the graphics hardware is not DEC at
all.
Its my understanding that there was a rich 3rd party hardware market
for frame buffers and other graphics hardware that plugged into DEC
equipment. The early E&S equipment was essentially a graphics
peripheral for a minicomputer. By 1986 they were probably working on
the Shadowfax graphics for the VAXstatsion 8000, though.
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2:40 p.m.
On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Richard wrote:
It doesn't look like a GIGI. You can see the keyboard in front of
the monitor, and it's pretty clearly a VT100 keyboard. The GIGI's
keyboard looks identical, but its case is much deeper.
The thing that makes me wonder is that I don't see the rest of the
VT100.
I suppose it *could* be a VT125, but with the VT125 chassis on the
floor or something, driving the external monitor. That would account
for the presence of the VT100 keyboard.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I just
stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M
They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its
doing
the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used?
Does
anyone have a clue?
Since its 1986, the software is most likely custom.
The terminal *could* be a DEC gigi in which case the graphics are
actually generated and displayed directly by the gigi. If its not a
gigi, its just some VT1xx type terminal. The gigi has a keyboard
layout similar to a VT100, but no dedicated monitor and a deeper
keyboard case, somewhat like an Atari or Commodore PC.
However, the gigi has a single display output[*] that is either in
text
mode or in graphics mode, so I don't think this is a gigi in this
case.
It is more likely that the VAX has a dumb frame buffer in it with the
video cables running out to this monitor.
You never really see a closeup of the terminal or any explanation of
how the image is being displayed, so its hard to say exactly.
8:44 p.m.
In article <301A0450-6DC9-4465-859F-5E957296BBDD at neurotica.com>,
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
The thing that makes me wonder is that I don't
see the rest of the
VT100.
If you watch carefully, the green screen of the terminal is on top of
the color monitor showing the paint output. The paint program's menus
are displayed on the text screen of the terminal.
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8:49 p.m.
On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Richard wrote:
I don't believe DEC ever sold a VT100-family terminal with a green-
phosphor CRT.
I suppose it could be an aftermarket anti-glare screen covering.
Speaking of which...does anyone else here find it amusing that a
big marketing point of many modern laptops is "glossy screen"?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The thing
that makes me wonder is that I don't see the rest of the
VT100.
If you watch carefully, the green screen of the terminal is on top of
the color monitor showing the paint output. The paint program's menus
are displayed on the text screen of the terminal.
8:59 p.m.
In article <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7 at neurotica.com>,
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
I don't believe DEC ever sold a VT100-family
terminal with a green-
phosphor CRT.
The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green
antiglare filter: <http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt102-ug/chapter10.html>
--
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<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
9:10 p.m.
On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:59 PM, Richard wrote:
Ahh, must've been that! It can't have been very popular; hundreds
of VT100-family terminals have passed through my hands and I've never
seen one in the flesh.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I don't
believe DEC ever sold a VT100-family terminal with a
green-
phosphor CRT.
The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green
antiglare filter: <http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt102-ug/chapter10.html> 
9:59 p.m.
On 15 Feb 2010 at 21:10, Dave McGuire wrote:
Ahh, must've been that! It can't have been
very popular; hundreds
of VT100-family terminals have passed through my hands and I've never
seen one in the flesh.
I used to have a green plastic antiglare overlay that also limited
off-axis viewing for privacy. It may have been made by Polaroid. I
wish I would have kept it.
--Chuck
10:15 p.m.
It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of
VT100oids with green tubes.
Or a repair job, come to think about it. I pulled a half pallet of new
National 12" tubes out of New Jersey a few months ago - a mix of
white, amber, and green - destined for replacements in terminals. The
electronics does not care about the phosphor color. And maybe the
repair depot techs did not care either.
--
Will
10:40 p.m.
New subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics)
In article <e1d20d631002151915j43ca9390l5852dcdf66b4295b at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
Or a repair job, come to think about it. I pulled a
half pallet of new
National 12" tubes out of New Jersey a few months ago - a mix of
white, amber, and green - destined for replacements in terminals. The
electronics does not care about the phosphor color. And maybe the
repair depot techs did not care either.
What terminals were they intended for?
--
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<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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10:55 p.m.
New subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics)
--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
Or a repair
job, come to think about it. I pulled a
half pallet of new
National 12" tubes out of New Jersey a few
months ago
- a mix of
white, amber, and green - destined for
replacements in
terminals. The
electronics does not care about the phosphor
color.
And maybe the
repair depot techs did not care either.
What terminals were they intended for? From the looks of them, some were replacements for DEC
VT220 type terminals (no mounting ears), and the rest were just regular, generic tubes for
VT100 (ears) and everything else that uses that type of 12" tube. Heck, I've even
replaced terminal tubes with tubes scavenged from 12" television sets. Mono tubes are
pretty interchangeable. Phosphor color is dictated by the tube itself.
Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged up IBM 5151 display into a Zenith
12" television. I created the only TV with WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow
persistence phosphor made TV watching rather weird.
-Ian
11:11 p.m.
New subject: monitor misuse
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged
up IBM 5151
display into a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with
WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV
watching rather weird.
I hooked some random monochrome composite monitor to a video game console.
I agree, it is weird. I didn't try piping a TV channel through it though.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
11:17 p.m.
New subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals
Mr Ian Primus wrote:
Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged
up IBM 5151
display into a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with
WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV
watching rather weird.
Just the thing for Twilight Zone... :)
-Ian
16 Feb
16 Feb
12:33 a.m.
New subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics)
In article <463601.80537.qm at web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>,
Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> writes:
Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged
up IBM 5151
display int o a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with
WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV
watching rather weird.
I would like to see that!
--
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<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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15 Feb
15 Feb
10:57 p.m.
New subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics)
What terminals were they intended for?
They are pretty general purpose, I think. I gave them to Ian, so he
can chime up.
They came from Cyber Resurces, so they were intended for DEC and CDC Vikings.
--
Will
10:39 p.m.
On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
I think some of us would've run across at least one if that were
the case. I certainly haven't.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The VT102 User
Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green
antiglare filter: <http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt102-ug/chapter10.html>
It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with
green tubes.
10:39 p.m.
In article <e1d20d631002151910m2cdf9866u4129242000590de6 at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
es.
I think he's right though. In documentation I've read through, there
were green and amber models offered for the successive generations but
I don't recall having read that the VT100 or earlier models had
anything other than the white phosphor.
--
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<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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The VT102 User
Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green
antiglare filter: <http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt102-ug/chapter10.html>
It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with green tub
16 Feb
16 Feb
4:53 p.m.
I think he's right though. ?In documentation
I've read through, there
were green and amber models offered for the successive generations but
I don't recall having read that the VT100 or earlier models had
anything other than the white phosphor.
Once again, those troublesome words "always" and "never" get us in
trouble. Always expect exceptions. Never completely trust
documentation.
Sure, the VT100 documentation shows that VT100s are "always" white -
but have you considered ALL of the documentation? It is perfectly
reasonable to think that DEC may have done a run of green VT100oids*,
complete with an ECO or errata sheet (quickly thrown away or lost)
saying something like "by the way, you are getting green tubes".
Or there could have been an RPQ job - ask DEC to make some green
VT100oids, maybe pay a little money, and DEC delivers green. IBM was
quite adept at this. Once again, no need to reprint the manual when a
single sheet of paper will do.
The problem is that documentation for these types of things rarely
shows up these days, or maybe never existed much at all outside the
sales order or the factory itself.
--
Will
15 Feb
15 Feb
11:04 p.m.
--- On Mon, 2/15/10, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a VT100 with a green tube. It came to me like that, and the screen burn is
consistent with a lot of use. It's a fairly slow persistence tube, and the bottom edge
is burned with a one inch vertical line in the middle, from that bright flash that a VT100
makes at poweroff. It's mostly hidden under the bezel.
It could very well have been original, but it could also have been replaced at some time.
-Ian
The VT102 User
Guide on
vt100.net shows that you could get a green
antiglare filter:
<http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt102-ug/chapter10.html>
It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of
VT100oids with green tubes.
11:07 p.m.
I have a VT100 with a green tube. It came to me like
that, and the screen burn is consistent with a lot of use. It's a fairly slow
persistence tube, and the bottom edge is burned with a one inch vertical line in the
middle, from that bright flash that a VT100 makes at poweroff. It's mostly hidden
under the bezel.
It could very well have been original, but it could also have been replaced at some time.
Did you get that from me? I have a hazy thought of seeing a VT100oid
in green, but I did not want to speak up unless certain.
--
Will
11:14 p.m.
--- On Mon, 2/15/10, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
Did you get that from me? I have a hazy thought of
seeing a
VT100oid
in green, but I did not want to speak up unless certain.
No, I didn't. I actually scavenged this one from the scrap pile at the school I used
to work at like seven years ago. First VT100 I ever owned. It's yellowed, beat up,
inscribed with a school property number in large letters on the side, and the "Set
Up" key is missing. But I've gotten a lot of use out of it. The tube has burn-in
from General Electric, so if it was replaced, it was replaced before it was donated to the
school.
-Ian
15 Feb
15 Feb
9:24 p.m.
On 2/15/10 11:40 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Richard wrote:
>> I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M
>>
>> They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing
>> the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does
>> anyone have a clue?
>
> Since its 1986, the software is most likely custom.
>
Running under Unix. You see a user profile with / pathname when he brings up the
menu. I wish they wouldn't have chopped off the credits. The artist is named
"Paul"
and he says he worked in Hollywood.
Raster updates are quite slow, it could be a graphics terminal running over a serial
line (Ramtek, Chromerics, Raster Tech, Genesco, AED all possibilities). Guessing 640 x 480
x 8
resolution. Their use of overlays would have been easy with planar frame buffers.
9:55 p.m.
In article <4B7A01C6.2000404 at bitsavers.org>,
Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:
Raster updates are quite slow, it could be a graphics
terminal running
over a serial line (Ramtek, Chromerics, Raster Tech, Genesco, AED all
possibilities). Guess ing 640 x 480 x 8 resolution. [...
Yes, even in 1986 I would expect a memory mapped frame buffer to a VAX
to get updated faster than that. So that does point to a serial line
terminal. In the mid 80s, there were many people making these, but by
the end of the 80s serial terminals were almost dead. X terminals
revived the terminal concept for a while, but as PCs got cheaper and
cheaper it just made sense to give everybody their own dumb frame
buffer capable machine/workstation. In the 90s the 3D hardware
pipelines started becoming more affordable and of course the GPU
explosion in the "oughts" has just made silly amounts of processing
power available for very little money.
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16 Feb
16 Feb
2:10 a.m.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 07:55:21PM -0700, Richard wrote:
Yes, even in 1986 I would expect a memory mapped frame
buffer to a VAX
to get updated faster than that. So that does point to a serial line
terminal.
An alternative is that the image is loaded from disk into the frame
buffer, they do talk about "load" images from files.
/P
(And yes, Johnny, I should have recognized it as a TU77 :)
24 Feb
24 Feb
6:18 p.m.
In article <20100216071003.GA27208 at Update.UU.SE>,
Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> writes:
An alternative is that the image is loaded from disk
into the frame
buffer, they do talk about "load" images from files.
OK, yes, relative speed of disk and memory would account for the slow
wipe of the image as they load it. I hadn't thought about that.
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bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
drb＠msu.edu -
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