28 Dec
2006
28 Dec
'06
3:23 p.m.
I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to download
these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a digital pack rat. ; )
In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided
it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy
to determine the most efficient cut line.
I've included an X-Ray of a Disk II card just for fun.
The X-Rays are at 300dpi. I'm not an X-Ray tech so my calibration was
a little off. Our resident X-ray guy is gone today. I'm not sure he
would be interested in an Apple IIe motherboard any way. ; ) Some
areas are dark. By adjusting "Levels" in photoshop you can bring them
out.
The motherboard received a dose rate of 17.84 R/min for the scans and
calibration. About 27 minutes (for 3 scans and a calibration). This
would have been a dose of 482 Rad.
The Disk II card received the same dose rate, but it was in the vault
for the whole time the motherboard was in there. It received radiation
for a total of about 32 minutes. 571 Rad.
To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that
dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical
care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections.
Females become permanently sterile.
Motherboard:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Apple_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges…
Disk II:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Disk_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.…
Any comments?
Grant
28 Dec
28 Dec
3:28 p.m.
>>> cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half
Why?
-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Stockly [mailto:grant at stockly.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:23 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray
I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to download
these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a digital pack rat. ;
)
In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided it
would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy to
determine the most efficient cut line.
I've included an X-Ray of a Disk II card just for fun.
The X-Rays are at 300dpi. I'm not an X-Ray tech so my calibration was a
little off. Our resident X-ray guy is gone today. I'm not sure he would be
interested in an Apple IIe motherboard any way. ; ) Some areas are dark.
By adjusting "Levels" in photoshop you can bring them out.
The motherboard received a dose rate of 17.84 R/min for the scans and
calibration. About 27 minutes (for 3 scans and a calibration). This would
have been a dose of 482 Rad.
The Disk II card received the same dose rate, but it was in the vault for
the whole time the motherboard was in there. It received radiation for a
total of about 32 minutes. 571 Rad.
To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that dose
50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical care).
Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections.
Females become permanently sterile.
Motherboard:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Apple_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.
jpg
Disk II:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Disk_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.j
pg
Any comments?
Grant
6:26 p.m.
X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for
information
on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security
screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a
study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and
exposure for nondestructive testing of
high-reliability
ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon
lattice,
which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think
the
exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry
(e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of
an
issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff.
Anybody know more?
--Bill
6:36 p.m.
Isn't this why they make CPUs and other chips "RAD HARD" for
aerospace/military use? I seem to remember a reference relating to the 1802
where one of its selling points was the sapphire substrate.
Or am I suffering from bit rot?
Rich
Rich Cini
Collector of classic computers
Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
Web site: http://www.altair32.com/
/***************************************************/
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of William Maddox
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:27 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray
X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for
information
on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security
screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a
study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and
exposure for nondestructive testing of
high-reliability
ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon
lattice,
which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think
the
exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry
(e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of
an
issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff.
Anybody know more?
--Bill
6:56 p.m.
At 05:26 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote:
X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for
information
on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security
screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a
study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and
exposure for nondestructive testing of
high-reliability
ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon
lattice,
which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think
the
exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry
(e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of
an
issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff.
Anybody know more?
It was explained to me that the x-rays poked holes between silicon
junctions which reduces conductivity and because of that the power
dissipation kills the device.
A study of the AVR mega103L shows that the device will literally "cook"
itself before it is too damaged to continue operating. It can be used
beyond the "cook" threshold by using a current limiting resistor. This
threshold was somewhere in the 8,000 rad range for the AVR. I have the
full study if you guys are interested in me posting it.
I've read older documents that mention 50,000 rad before a PROM is
erased. So there must be a gate size variable like you said. Most
documents refer to putting the EPROMS right under the port. My board was
36" awa and was exposed to 17.8R/min. When ever you half the distance from
the tube the radiation is increased 4 times (the inverse square law). So
at 2.25" away from the tube we would have somewhere around
4,500R/min. This would make it get erased MUCH faster than at 36" like I
had it.
I've personally had an electronics board partially exposed to a linear
accelerator. The Apple IIe board was scanned at 17.8R/min. The linear
accelerator does a little over 3,000R/min at ONE METER! : ) We were
imaging 8" thick steel blocks.
The board was shielded with a few inches of lead, but its dose after a few
hours of imaging was damaging. The MAX232 chip seemed more damaged than
anything else, we trashed the whole board. It DID actually still work, but
its not worth taking a chance... There were some weird symptoms when ever
the linear accelerator was ramped up, but that could have been from the
dual magnetrons taking 30,000v at 30A pulses to 6MeV. The main power coax
cable is 1.5" diameter carrying 10,000v at 100A, but they said it was very
well shielded.
7:16 p.m.
Grant Stockly wrote:
At 05:26 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote:
Most modern boards that use BGA's (ball grid arrays) are X-ray'ed to
check for assembly defects. There must be some reasonable tolerance to
X-rays by today's current technology chips. I'm currently working with
Sony on a video project and have had our prototype board exposed
5 times already (testing various versions of a BGA chip). Anyone know
what the exposure might be from the BGA inspection stations? Anyone
heard of a limit to how many times a board can be exposed before I get
worried?
Bob
X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for
information
on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security
screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a
study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and
exposure for nondestructive testing of
high-reliability
ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon
lattice,
which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think
the
exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry
(e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of
an
issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff.
Anybody know more?
7:37 p.m.
My board was 36" awa and was exposed to
17.8R/min. When ever you
[halve] the distance from the tube the radiation is increased 4 times
(the inverse square law).
Inverse square really applies only to non-collimated sources - as an
extreme example, consider your typical laser pointer, which is perhaps
half as bright at 500 feet as it is at one inch. :-)
I don't know enough about X-ray tubes to know whether they follow
inverse square or not, but I'd be hesitant to assume they do. (Or, of
course, it could be that you already considered this and know inverse
square applies, and this is all irrelevant.... :-)
There were some weird symptoms when ever the linear
accelerator was
ramped up, but that could have been from the dual magnetrons taking
30,000v at 30A pulses to 6MeV. The main power coax cable is 1.5"
diameter carrying 10,000v at 100A, but they said it was very well
shielded.
Well, yes, but for that kind of power, "very well shielded" may well
mean "all it does is crash all electronics within 10 metres, instead of
permanently demagnetizing everything within a kilometer". :-)
Years ago, I once had the privilege to approach a superconducting-loop
"permanent magnet". Something like half a building away there were
warning signs saying to carry nothing magnetic past this point. They
said that if it quenches somehow, (a) it suddenly is up around room
temperature, from the dissipated heat, and (b) it takes something like
a day to remagnetize it, even after chilling it back to superconducting
temperature again. I hate to think what the magnetic-field transient
occurring when it quenches must do to anything conductive in the
vicinity....
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
29 Dec
29 Dec
6:41 a.m.
And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz
Evan, Evan, Evan... Ever see the *Portable* Atari 2600?! :) It is
know as the VCSp and was done by Ben Heck. More info here:
http://www.benheck.com , then scroll down and click on
"VCSp Rev 1".
Cheers,
Bryan
>>> cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in
half
Why?
-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Stockly [mailto:grant at stockly.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:23 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray
I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to download
these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a digital pack rat. ;
)
In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided it
would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy to
determine the most efficient cut line.
I've included an X-Ray of a Disk II card just for fun.
The X-Rays are at 300dpi. I'm not an X-Ray tech so my calibration was a
little off. Our resident X-ray guy is gone today. I'm not sure he would be
interested in an Apple IIe motherboard any way. ; ) Some areas are dark.
By adjusting "Levels" in photoshop you can bring them out.
The motherboard received a dose rate of 17.84 R/min for the scans and
calibration. About 27 minutes (for 3 scans and a calibration). This would
have been a dose of 482 Rad.
The Disk II card received the same dose rate, but it was in the vault for
the whole time the motherboard was in there. It received radiation for a
total of about 32 minutes. 571 Rad.
To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that dose
50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical care).
Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections.
Females become permanently sterile.
Motherboard:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Apple_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.
jpg
Disk II:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Disk_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.j
pg
Any comments?
Grant
28 Dec
28 Dec
5:06 p.m.
Wow - that is _really_ cool. I wish I had access to an
X-ray machine - it certainally would make reverse
engineering/repairing boards a lot easier. Although I
wonder what a complicated multilayer board would look
like. Probably unintelligible, but then again, the
hardware we all work with doesn't have complicated
multilayer boards.
Way cool.
-Ian
29 Dec
29 Dec
2:05 p.m.
Wow - that is _really_ cool. I wish I had access to an
X-ray machine - it certainally would make reverse
engineering/repairing boards a lot easier. Although I
wonder what a complicated multilayer board would look
like. Probably unintelligible, but then again, the
hardware we all work with doesn't have complicated
multilayer boards.
Well, if the board is just double sided (i.e. all tracks visible, except
where they pass under components), you can generally trace tracks by eye
and confirm with an ohmmeter. And if there are internal tracks, I think
tracing those from an X-ray image wouldn't be exactly trivial.
For boards where the layout of the tracks is not critical (that is, there
are no inductive or capactive couplings between tracks), I've never had
any problems tracing out the connections with an ohhmeter. You have to
desolder components that will test as dead shorts (inductors,
transformers, low-value resistors) of course, but such components
generally have few conenctions are are not hard to remove.
If the layout is critical, of course, you have problems. Mind you, I'd
love to see anyone fiogure out the HP9100 ROM board (14 layers, or is it
16) from an X-ray image of the board. That is probably the worst example
you'll find in a classic computer.
-tony
4:07 p.m.
New subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray
Well, if the board is just double sided (i.e. all
tracks visible, except
where they pass under components), you can generally trace tracks by eye
and confirm with an ohmmeter. And if there are internal tracks, I think
tracing those from an X-ray image wouldn't be exactly trivial.
Before you read the text below, am willing to help anyone out who has
equipment they want to reproduce (as far as getting the x-ray goes)...but
its not a fast and easy method.
It isn't easy, and I would advise against it. If you have 4 layer product,
TWO boards and are willing to throw one away, then it is cheap and easy. I
wouldn't have ever came out with www.altairkit.com without the guys at
www.mhtest.com. They will take your 2-3-4-etc layer board and generate
production ready cad drawings. A 2 layer board does not need to be
destroyed, however a 4 layer board will need to be "planed" so that they
can scan the inner layers.
Most 4 layer boards just have a VCC and GND power planes, so the top and
bottom are the signals. I still wouldn't use the x-ray to generate the cad
artwork. Been there... ; )
Here are two shots of a Mac 512k motherboard. You can see the difference.
This is what a 4 layer board CAN look like. You can see the holes in the
middle layers where the through hole devices go through.
http://media.diywelder.com/images3/090605-512kRAM.jpg
http://media.diywelder.com/images3/090605-512kProcessor.jpg
Take a look at my website at www.altairkit.com and read the story link. I
first tried to duplicate the boards with x-ray, and even developed a way to
do it (it just takes a lot of time). The method involves scanning the back
of the board as an image and combining it with the x-ray. The grey traces
will be on the top and the orange ones will be on the bottom.
X-ray of Altair 8800 CPU board:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/060119-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0-XRAY.jpg
The photo scan of the Altair 8800 CPU board:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/060119-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0_Back-Flipped-…
The x-ray / photo composite:
http://www.stockly.com/images2/060119-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0-Composite.jpg
Grant
5:58 p.m.
New subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray
In article <5.2.1.1.0.20061229144920.01517160 at pop.1and1.com>,
Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> writes:
The x-rays are cool, but I think if I was intending to reverse
engineer the board, I'd remove all the components from the board
first, although I think that probably also falls into the "have a 2nd
board you don't care about" category...
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
Well, if the
board is just double sided (i.e. all tracks visible, except
where they pass under components), you can generally trace tracks by eye
and confirm with an ohmmeter. And if there are internal tracks, I think
tracing those from an X-ray image wouldn't be exactly trivial.
Before you read the text below, am willing to help anyone out who has
equipment they want to reproduce (as far as getting the x-ray goes)...but
its not a fast and easy method.
[...] 
11:48 p.m.
New subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Richard wrote:
The x-rays are cool, but I think if I was intending to
reverse
engineer the board, I'd remove all the components from the board
first, although I think that probably also falls into the "have a 2nd
board you don't care about" category...
I was puzzled about that... Why weren't the chips removed before putting
it in the machine?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
11:57 p.m.
New subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray
At 10:48 PM 12/29/2006, you wrote:
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Richard wrote:
Not with the pictures I posted. The little squares in the middle of the
ICs is the die.
I have a CD player with blown bearings. I guess a fun test would be to see
how many rads it will take to kill the music? Anyone up for that? :D
The x-rays are cool, but I think if I was
intending to reverse
engineer the board, I'd remove all the components from the board
first, although I think that probably also falls into the "have a 2nd
board you don't care about" category...
I was puzzled about that... Why weren't the chips removed before putting
it in the machine?
28 Dec
28 Dec
5:51 p.m.
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Grant Stockly wrote:
Any comments?
What does that sort of radiation do to chips?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
29 Dec
29 Dec
2:08 a.m.
In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in
half I decided
it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy
to determine the most efficient cut line.
Do you have higher resolution photos? I want to make a (big) picture to
put on the wall :D
To put it in perspective, if a group of people were
exposed to that
dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical
care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections.
Females become permanently sterile.
Were you wanting to stereilize the apple? :oD Man, that is a LOT of
radiation! ;oO Why so much radiation?
Greetz
Alexandre
11:30 a.m.
At 01:08 AM 12/29/2006, you wrote:
300dpi is pretty high for an x-ray. The only way I could get more is by
doing geometric magnification. I don't have a detector that big at the
moment hooked up.
It's 42x52 inches at 72dpi. You need more than that? ; )
Each of the 3 shots I did was frame averaged by 4 to reduce noise. So I
really did 12 x-rays you could say. I left the motherboard in the vault
during calibration and tube warmup because I didn't care about the
dose. That added about 4 shots worth of dose. I also used at a fairly low
energy level (80kv) so that the image would have the most contrast
possible. Reducing the resolution to 150dpi would have required half the
dose also.
People just can't take radiation. Anything other than animals like metal,
ceramics, etc don't get hurt from radiation. ; ) The dose rate of a
linear accelerator that we're working with is 4000R/min. Every 15 seconds
it will put out the same dose that the Apple IIe got in 32 minutes. ;
) (At the same distance in each test)
Grant
In preparation
for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided
it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy
to determine the most efficient cut line.
Do you have higher resolution photos? I want to make a (big) picture
to put on the wall :D To put it in
perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that
dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical
care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections.
Females become permanently sterile.
Were you wanting to stereilize the apple? :oD Man, that is a LOT of
radiation! ;oO Why so much radiation?
5:40 p.m.
Each of the 3 shots I did was frame averaged by 4 to
reduce noise. So I
really did 12 x-rays you could say. I left the motherboard in the vault
during calibration and tube warmup because I didn't care about the dose.
That added about 4 shots worth of dose. I also used at a fairly low
energy level (80kv) so that the image would have the most contrast
possible. Reducing the resolution to 150dpi would have required half the
dose also.
And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does it
became radioactive?
I have some MSX here that I want to "give it a shot" (pun intended)
hehehe
4:49 p.m.
At 04:40 PM 12/29/2006, you wrote:
No. It doesn't become radioactive. That's a joke played on new guys who
leave their lunch in the vault. You can offer to properly dispose of it. ; )
I can take a picture of the MSK. You just have to mail it to alaska. ; )
Grant
Each of the 3
shots I did was frame averaged by 4 to reduce noise. So I
really did 12 x-rays you could say. I left the motherboard in the vault
during calibration and tube warmup because I didn't care about the dose.
That added about 4 shots worth of dose. I also used at a fairly low
energy level (80kv) so that the image would have the most contrast
possible. Reducing the resolution to 150dpi would have required half the
dose also.
And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does it
became radioactive?
I have some MSX here that I want to "give it a shot" (pun intended)
hehehe
30 Dec
30 Dec
3:11 a.m.
No. It doesn't become radioactive. That's a
joke played on new guys who
leave their lunch in the vault. You can offer to properly dispose of it.
; )
Looking for Brazilian MSX? So bad shipping is so expensive, I have 10
Expert MSX here, and some others :oP
I can take a picture of the MSK. You just have to
mail it to alaska. ; )
Maybe if I ask Santa to take one home and you get it with him? :oD
29 Dec
29 Dec
4:53 p.m.
On Friday 29 December 2006 20:40, Alexandre Souza wrote:
And with so much radiation being shot onto metals
and like, does
it became radioactive?
No. You can't make things radioactive using x-rays any more than you can
make things radioactive by shining any other form of light on them.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
30 Dec
30 Dec
9:24 a.m.
At 2:23 PM -0900 12/28/06, Grant Stockly wrote:
I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would
want to
download these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a
digital pack rat. ; )
In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided
it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy
to determine the most efficient cut line.
Based on the X-Ray you could fold that board in THREE parts to fit in
even tighter...
John :-#)#
6348
days inactive
6350
days old
22 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bobalan＠sbcglobal.net -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
evan＠snarc.net -
grant＠stockly.com -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
jrr＠flippers.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
rcini＠optonline.net -
wmaddox＠pacbell.net