On 23 August 2012 12:10, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote: I got this, too. I am inclined to be forgiving this time. First-time offender and all. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

On 08/23/2012 07:38 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: Yep. I went without steady/decent work for almost four years before I got the hell out of Florida. It's easy to forget how hard things can be. Let's give this guy some slack. Or better yet, some work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 23 August 2012 13:56, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote: Yes, I know. I got the same thing. I daresay everyone did. And? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

On 24 August 2012 00:29, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote: Sure, it was bad manners, poor netiquette, but it was an honest effort and a first-time thing. If he does it again, or tries to sell us anything, then problem, but TBH I think you're over-reacting a bit, that's all. Poor decision, yes, agreed, but no harm done to us. To his rep or standing, yes, maybe, but that is his problem, not ours. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

On 8/23/2012 10:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: I know some will disagree, but I find this continued ranting and whining about the original email just as bad as spam. It's unsolicited (it is off-topic, for sure, and has nothing to do with classic computers), it is bulk (via the mailing list), and it comes via email. Either send the man some work, or don't, but can we debate whether it's spam in some other mailing list? (Yes, I am aware of the irony of adding yet another "spammy" message to this already tired thread...) Jim

On 24 August 2012 04:38, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote: All right, conceded. :?) I could understand that, yes. Um. Even people speaking up has done nothing to prevent this and I don't think it will. True. Also true. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

On 23 August 2012 12:10, <microcode at zoho.com> wrote: I agree. It's on-topic (as far as I am concerned) to ask about jobs working with classic computers. I only regret I don't have one for him. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson

Agreed. But if that's what he wanted to do, I think he should have mailed the list. If he had, I'd've had no problem with it. I didn't get a copy, so I can't check directly, but my impression from the quotes and discussion is that he scraped the subscriber list, or recent posters' addresses, or some such, and spammed them. (And yes, I consider it spam: unsolicited, check; bulk, check; email, check. That I didn't get a copy means nothing; from what I can tell from the discussion I have seen, it appears to have been sent through Google, so I would have no identifiable traces even if he did (try to) send to me too.) Being one of us does not, in my opinion, excuse spamming. Indeed, I'm having trouble thinking of anything that does. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

In article <20120823111000.GC16844 at zoho.com>, microcode at zoho.com writes: Yeah, I didn't consider it spam per se, just "unwanted email". But hey, my email address is on my messages and anyone can send me unwanted email. Many people have broadened their definition of spam to "any email I don't want!". If you don't want anyone to send you unwanted email, then you should never post to any mailing list or newsgroup with your real email address. Of course, generally you can't post to a mailing list except from the email address used to read that mailing list. I suppose you could subscribe to a throwaway address that you use for posting and only read messages on the web, but it seems like a lot of bother just to avoid the occasional unexpected email. I was disappointed to see that the message was ill-formatted and obviously generic. Had the person taken the time to format the message to read nicely (remember, you only get one chance to make a first impression) and bothered to make the email specific to me and not a generic "let me just hit everyone on the mailing list with this identical message", I might have bothered to read it. I almost sent a chastising reply, but decided against it, because as you say, people are looking for work and it's a tough environment out there. I happen to work at a company that is aggressively hiring, but not for people in the Ukraine. (Seriously? You're emailing me from the other side of the globe asking for work?) I have interviewed more people in the past year than I have in the past 30 years. I am surprised at the number of senior people that haven't kept their skills current and claim expertise in areas where they really just don't know it. Perhaps in the particular case I'm thinking about, the guy just didn't want the job, but I never heard a person say "I don't know" or "I don't remember" so many times since Ollie North was testifying before the Iran-Contra investigation in Congress. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

In article <20120823164805.GB1866 at zoho.com>, microcode at zoho.com writes: By generic, I mean that it didn't address me and my interests as an individual, it was a form letter. English aside, had the person taken the time to comment about my cctalk-related interests before asking for a job, I would have spent more time reading it. This is basic job-seeking advice. When you "cold call" someone asking for a job, sending a form letter doesn't indear you to the recipient. If you take the time (and since you're unemployed, you should have plenty of it) to customize the cover letter to the recipient, they pay attention. If it's a company and you show in your cover letter that you've researched the company's products and are telling them specifically why you could help them out with their existing product line and potential future products, that gets their attention. If it's an individual like me and you show in your email that you've been paying attention to the kinds of things I say on the mailing list (or you bothered to do some googling to see what kinds of things I say on the mailing list) and that you have skills that I would recognize, then I'm paying attention. When it's a form letter, I stop reading. Non-existent. However, if the situation were reversed and the Ukraine was booming and I needed a job, you can be damned sure I'd customize the cover letter and have someone who *did* have good Ukrainian review my letter before I sent it to make sure I didn't have any typos or grammatical mistakes. But you miss my point about "generic", I am not nitpicking his spelling or grammar, which seemed fine, but it would be another point working against him if the email contained spelling or grammar errors. <http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2012/07/i_wont_hire_people_who_use_poo.html> Because we don't have an office in the Ukraine. If you want to be a telecommuting long-distance team member, you better stand out and show why a company is going to take a gamble on you. Sending a poorly formatted form letter is not the way to make that stand out impression. Modern technology work is a team effort. Being part of a team means being available at the same working hours as the rest of the team, which isn't feasible when you're on the other side of the globe. If all you wanted was a lone individual coder position, then you don't need to send a personal plea to my inbox, all you need to do is to start subscribing to the websites devoted to connecting such contractor types with available work. My remarks have got nothing to do with Ukraine, but with it's time zone distance from where the work is and the fact that most work is team based, not lone individual based. If the request came from Argentina or someplace in South America, that would at least address the time-zone difference, but there's also something to be said for being in the same physical office. It's not like this is someone I've worked with (or hell even had a *conversation* with) before and I can vouch for them. This is basically a complete stranger approaching me and asking me for a job. They want *me* to do them a favor. They could be the best worker ever, or they could be a complete scumbag liar child molester. I have no way of knowing the truth of the matter. I'm on this list for my own personal reasons, it doesn't have anything to do with my employer. (You'll notice that in my signature, personal web site, museum web site, manx, terminals wiki, etc., nowhere do I mention my employer. Since joining this list in 2005-ish, I've switched employers 3 times. I don't think I've never mentioned any of my employers by name in my conversations here, but you might be able to turn up the odd message or two where I do.) Given where I live (Salt Lake City) and so far having found like... uh... 2 people on this mailing list who are even in the same state, I don't go pimping job opportunities here. Like it or not, most work is still accelerated by being physically in the same room. If you're distant, you need even *better* communication and interpersonal skills than the average person, never mind the average engineer, to make up the difference. I've made a number of personal friends from this mailing list over the years; if one of them asked me about job opportunities in private email, my response would be much different than ignoring the email I've given plenty of practical job-seeking advice in the two messages I've posted this thread. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

In article <1345755086.51682.YahooMailNeo at web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>, P Gebhardt <p.gebhardt at ymail.com> writes: Yeah, so? I'm not saying people from the Ukraine can't apply for a position at my employer, but hiring someone that isn't a US citizen and lives in a foreign country (i.e. is not currently residing in the US) makes things much more complicated. By law, a company is required to show *why* they must go outside the country in order to fill the position instead of filling the position with a US citizen. After that, a work visa has to be obtained and the employee has to be relocated to the US, which the employee usually expects the company to pay for -or- the company has to establish secure remote infrastructure for the employee to be able to work. Extending secure network services to the Ukraine may be non-trivial (I'm not in IT, so I have no idea what it would take for our company). I'm not an expert in international corporate law, but taking on the first employee in a new national political jurisdication probably involves some initial expense. If all you want to do is hire a fly-by-night contractor, then yeah, you can pretty much "spend and pray" any way you like with minimal regulatory hurdles. But where I work, we hire people for the long-term and don't do short-term contracts. You make it sound as if all that's involved is a plane flight and shipping your personal belongings. It's not anywhere nearly as simplistic as that, and hasn't been that way for a long, long time. When I got out of college in 1986, I worked 5 months in France. I had to go through a huge amount of bullshit just to do that short-term work as an employee. I can't even begin to imagine how much bullshit you have to go through now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>