On 4/14/2014 11:42 AM, Richard wrote: Was not $1500 a good price for usable computer in the late 1970's, floppy, printer and more that 16k memory? Ben.

On 4/14/2014 1:45 PM, Paul Koning wrote: OH wait. I forgot that money is worth less than it was in the mid 1970's. I think we need to remember that old iron does not come for a song, and good price list is need to get what the true worth of a item is on the market. Ben.

These earlier PLATO terminals, however, are extremely unobtainable. The IST-IIs, on the other hand, are still out in the wild in small quantities. Serious collectors of terminals could expect, after some amount of legwork, to get an IST-II for their collection, but could not reasonable expect to get one of the plasma types. reasonably obtainable terminals are as high on the list as the CDC IST-IIs? DEC VT05, IBM 2260*, early Tek 4000, maybe a Uniscope? Just about all the other collectable terminals would be quite a bit further down the list. *Although good luck getting the brain. -- Will - WILL!

I think this would fall in the too-obscure category. Many collectors would pass one of these up, as it would not be on their hit list. DEC made a *lot* of VTs that never really went anywhere - tiny quantities, lab animals, duds, whatever. -- Will

Your inability to find a Uniscope has nothing to do with it. Sure, it could mean that they really are unobtainable, and no amount of looking will turn up another - but it also could mean that you are having bad luck at it, or even that you are not looking very hard. For all you know, their could be one in the cellar in the house across the street Uniscopes are small enough that they can hide in a cellar or warehouse. It is reasonable to think that guys may have dragged them home in the 1970s, as a way to talk to their Imsai. I was thinking the very first Tek terminals (4001?). No, but try to find a serious DECcollector that does not want one. Learn. The brain of the 2260 is the 2848 Control Unit, and it actually has the frame buffer, control logic, comms, etc. for a number of 2260s, which are nothing more than video monitors with keyboards. Big box, with a mercury delay line system inside. It would be unreasonable to think that any of these were saved, but as we all know, people have saved weird things. -- Will

In article <CANij+deZrgS3tTTTmgAEkLSWKKyQxcoy66Z0O2T8O7J723pHWA at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: Fair enough, but you know how I look for things. There could be a warehouse with 100 NIB Uniscopes sitting in the back and they never put them on ebay and they never talk to anyone who knows me, so I'll never find them. However, compared to all the other stuff you mentioned, those have all been routinely listed on ebay at various frequencies. Of course, I think we've passed the point where terminals are routinely listed at regular frequency on ebay anymore. My searches mostly come up dry these days only showing the same handfull of $CRAZY items relisted over and over. 4002 was the first. I've never heard of anyone that has one, much less seen any pieces listed anywhere for sale. I'd put that at even rarer than the Uniscope. After that is 4010 of which many were made. wasn't (4010 is 1973; 4006 is 1975). True. I am, but it's slow going as I have no period experience with the stuff and the documentation is all written in IBM-ese. IBM 2260? I thought you were talking about the brain behind the IST II. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>

In article <535008A1.8030104 at dds.nl>, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> writes: Sweet! I would love it if you could contribute some pictures of the inside guts, etc., for the terminals wiki. I did find this one: <https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Hardware_Tektronix_4002A_picture.jpg> Do you have any problem with me stashing a copy on the terminals wiki? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 08:46:30AM +0200, Simon Claessen wrote: Wow! you guys really have one of each. I spot DECmates, heavy IBM gear, SGI stuff(old and newish), VAXmates (they must be rather rare) and lots more! How have you amassed all this? /P

On 4/19/14 9:15 AM, Simon Claessen wrote: Therein lies the path to madness. Hopefully, you have less draconian recycling laws than in the US. Think about how much this is going to cost you to store as time goes on.

On 19/04/14 1:19 PM, Simon Claessen wrote: A few people are still looking for glass tty's, they are not very common any more. I would definitely canvass retrocomputing groups before recycling them. Also, you can probably get real money selling them. --Toby

On 19/04/14 7:21 PM, David Riley wrote: Yeah if these are in .nl then I can't take one either (I'm in Toronto), otherwise I'd like a spare for my VT320. Other models of VT* also welcome... --Toby

On 20/04/2014 01:36, Seth Morabito wrote: I am in the UK. Is it possible to ship a couple to me? Dave G4UGM

The most recent DEC termainl I have is a VT240. I don't own a VT220, let alone a VT3xx. People here migth well be interested in them... It's time for me to admit the tiem I was a total idiot. I was using a VT101 (IIRC, maybe a VT100) for real work, and the screen was dim. So one morning I took the coveroff and checked the CRT voltages. All looked fine. I check ted the video amplifier circuit, that was fine too. All signales were what I expected. I was about to try tp source a repalcement CRT when I did what I should have done in the first place. I cleaned the screen. after remocing a thickj layer of dirt, the picutre was nice and bright ... I asusme you';ve tried cleaning the screen in yours. In genral a dim image is due to too low a beam current. Either because one of the CRT votlages is off (too -ve a control grid, not high enough +ve voltage on one of the anodes) or because the CRT cathode is losing emission. In general a careful tweak of the sub-brightness preset (if there is one) and the first anode ('a1' or 'g2' depending on which side of the Pond you are on) presets will do no harm and may improve matters. If the CRT is filing, this might get a bit more useful life out of it. -tony

In article <53521BC6.9080306 at dds.nl>, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> writes: Awesome! Any chance you can supply me with that DISSPLA demo input file? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>

In article <535588BD.9000001 at dds.nl>, Simon Claessen <simski at dds.nl> writes: Awesome, that's just as good, I didn't know about this site! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>

Gnuplot can drive it, I think. And it's certainlly capable of drawing graphs that aren't "simple". Ghostscript seems to be able to turn postscript into some dialect of Tek lingo. I played with this in xterm at one point. There are some tracers that convert bitmap images into vector ones, which might be fun. potrace and autotrace can both put out postscript, for example. Serial data rate will make anything large a waiting game... De

A friend of mine wrote such a program . Let me see if I can digg it out and get his permission to share. /P On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 01:05:53AM -0400, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:

It appears my memory was faulty. (Quelle surprise!) I wasn't using ghostscript, or at least not directly, though pstoedit appears to use it internally. Here are the notes I wrote when I was playing with this. ========== To convert a color image to Tektronix vector format: djpeg scene.jpg | # jpeg to ppm ppmtopgm | # ppm to pgm pnmnlfilt 2 1 | # adaptive smoothing pnmnorm | # contrast stretch pgmtopbm -threshold \ # to bitmap, via threshold not dither potrace -a 0.5 \ # corner threshold, smaller=sharper -O 0.8 \ # curve optim tolerance, larger=flatter -t 50 \ # "turd" filter min size of feature -r 320x200 \ # output device resolution -b pdf \ # output format -o scene.pdf \ # output file scene.pbm # input file pstoedit -f plot-tek \ # output format scene.pdf \ # input file scene.tek # output file ========== Obviously a lot of the settings, and the pbm manipulations, are either specific to a given image, or need tuning to taste, etc. De

I have the 'guts' to the earlier Plato terminal (the one with the 512x512 plasma.) By 'guts', I mean the keyboard and display - no box or electronics. These were picked up from Godbout, I think (way back when...) The terminal itself had been damaged significantly enough to render the rest of the electronics unusable - they were not part of the sale. I picked up the display and keyboard thinking I would someday 'do something with it.' Fortunately, I did later obtain the four documents describing how the plasma worked, with connection information, etc. It's basically a 512x512 one-bit-word memory with some special functions. Since there is a resurrection (of sorts) in an interest in Plato, I thought it might be interesting to put this beast back together, using some modern uProcessor to control it, with the end result making it work (from the serial port) like the old system. I *do* realize the original Plato terminals were 'strange' with non-8 bit characters in the data pathways. 1) Does enough information exist to do this? I've checked on bitsavers and find the II and III manuals, but nothing regarding the earlier device. -and- 2) Does this even make sense? Would one of these connected to the "Plato Network" vie TCP/IP be able to do the stuff it could do native (e.g. control the music synth, slide projector, etc.) It's been siting in my 'todo' box for 30+ years. Thought I should eventually do something with it. They were REALLY NEAT displays. -Gary On 04/15/2014 10:02 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

On 04/15/2014 02:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: Magnavox sounds familiar. Our terminal was in a large sheet-metal box without a micro I'm sure, given the time-frame (mid 1970s.) I looked at the manuals on bitsavers, but they seem to refer to the video-terminal variety. I know our terminal DID NOT speak ASCII, as the reason I had access to the terminal was to evaluate creation of software on our front-end processor for interfacing the beasties to our home-grown operating system. When the hardware department found they would need to build some stuff to make this happen, interest waned. This was back when I was a student at Oregon State, working in the systems programming department at the computer center. Excellent. I wasn't aware cyber1.org had a way to handle the 19/10 bit frames. This gives me incentive. Since I need to build hardware in any case to handle the keyboard and data to the display (as I said, I received NO additional hardware) it should be simple enough to just do some appropriate conversion to TCP/IP there as well and give it an ethernet connection (l'll likely use a Beaglebone for the task. Kinda overkill, but easy.) No slide projector, alas, though I saw an electrically operated remote control one go through our local Goodwill recently - perhaps I should snag it if it's still there. I could certainly build the necessary bits to interface it. And thanks for the pointer to the GSW. Thanks for the info. I will research this project further. -Gary

On 04/15/2014 04:44 PM, Paul Koning wrote: Alas, no. I do, however, have the power supply manual for the unit and it describes if gory detail the sequencing, ramps and limits for each of the voltages. I don't have it in front of me, but I recall a severe warning about when and how to bring up the 150 (or was it -150) volt supply with respect to the logic and other control voltages. Unfortunately, the power suppy et al were not part of the stuff I was able to obtain. Fortunately, the manufacturer of the display (Corning if I recall) graciously sent me, without charge, the four manuals for the system components. This was WAY before my access to the intertubes, so this was accomplished by dialing the old phone until I found a sympathetic ear... I suppose I should send the manuals to bitsavers. -Gary -- -Gary

On Apr 16, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Gary Oliver <go at aerodesic.com> wrote: Ok, so at least you can build a new design to match the specs. Yes, please do. I just sent the Magnavox and PPT manuals to bitsavers, but those treat the plasma panel and its power supply as a black box, so the manual for that piece would be an important addition. paul

On Apr 16, 2014, at 1:58 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: Yes, it still exists. See cyber1.org for more information. There?s a system running in Palo Alto, on the DtCyber emulator. It started as a copy of a real PLATO system (courtesy FAA). paul

On Apr 17, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: Yes, it was. paul

In article <534C30FC.2020002 at jetnet.ab.ca>, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes: This is not a computer. It's a terminal. It's a terminal that is only useful if you connect it to a CDC PLATO mainframe. This is not the early 1970s model, i.e. plasma display, but the late 1970s/early 1980s raster model. At that time monochrome raster graphics terminals were expensive: 1977 $5,500 HP 2648A 1979 $3,595 Tektronix 4027 1981 $3,750 HP 2623A 1982 $2,495 Visual 500 1983 $2,550 Modgraph GX-100 As you can see, prices were coming down rapidly because most of the cost of a raster graphics terminal is in the RAM necessary to hold the pixels. So if we are going by pure market price for a CDC IST II, it might be around $4000-5000. However, noone is going to pay that today -- the thing is used and long out of warranty and noone is around who is going to support fixing them beyond whatever basic knowledge that exists to repair CRT terminals and monitors. We don't even know if it is working because the buyer can't connect it to a working PLATO system or emulator, so it is being sold "as is". Given the age of the terminal, the capacitors are probably nearing the end of their useful life as well, so that is also dragging down the price. Then there's shipping -- this isn't a small terminal (keyboard is integral, not separate) and there's the weight of the thing. We have a new seller on ebay who has an unknown history of properly packing things like this for shipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>

On 4/14/2014 10:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: And you need one, after the last cheap on sold out seems to be the case always with ebay.

On 04/14/2014 11:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: Yes, my thought too. I think PLATO is something that many folk have at least heard of, even if they don't know details, and that can easily push the price of a rare item up - I think it's probably more desirable to the right kind of collector than a mass-market graphics terminal from e.g. Tek. $1500? No way. But a few hundred is a possibility.