17 Apr
2005
17 Apr
'05
6:06 a.m.
I have a couple of questions - and requests for
assistance - for some of the items I picked up this
weekend from TCF. My other post to the list details
what there are. Here goes:
- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but
doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000
side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it.
I am trying to determine whether the light on the
front of the ST506 inside should be on or not once the
drive comes up to speed or whether it only comes on
when that HBIB address is being accessed. Any hints ?
- Universe/68: Operating system for the Charles River
Data Systems Universe/68 anyone ? I understand these
machines used to run UNOS. It would be fun to try to
boot this thing. Also - any background information on
the machine itself would be of interest.
- I'd like to use a surplus VT420 as the display for
the DEC 350 Pro I picked up. This will entail
identifing a point on the VT420 schematic where I can
inject the composite video signal from the 350. So I
need the VT420 schematic. Does anyone on the list have
one ?
- manual or operating notes for the Zia Tech ZT 488 ?
I can probably figure this one out but documentation
is always welcome.
Thanks as always for the list's help.
Regards,
Dave
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17 Apr
17 Apr
7:49 a.m.
At 06:06 AM 4/17/05 -0700, you wrote:
- Universe/68: Operating system for the Charles River
Data Systems Universe/68 anyone ? I understand these
machines used to run UNOS. It would be fun to try to
boot this thing. Also - any background information on
the machine itself would be of interest.
I seem to remember having some UNOS related 8 inch floppies around here
somewhere. No idea if any are bootable, or if there were it's the same
UNOS that runs on the Universe/68. If they're of any use to you I'll see
if I can find them.
9:09 a.m.
On Sunday 17 April 2005 08:06, David Comley wrote:
- I'd like to use a surplus VT420 as the display
for
the DEC 350 Pro I picked up. This will entail
identifing a point on the VT420 schematic where I can
inject the composite video signal from the 350. So I
need the VT420 schematic. Does anyone on the list have
one ?
First off, before you go around modifying VT420s, you may want to test
the Pro first. The 'composite' output of the machine nicely matches
NTSC (RS-170) composite signal specs, so you can hook the output
directly to a TV with a composite input. Beware that the TV will
overscan the signal a bit, but you should see *something* when you
first power up the Pro to indicate that it's at least somewhat
functional.
As far as the VT420 schematics, I don't have any, but you might try
finding a VT220 to use, or a professional NTSC video monitor. I've got
a few of each and would probably try those first... the VT220 isn't too
different from the VR201 that should go with the Pro, and is probably
easier to modify (it even has the composite video output on its back,
so you might be able to trace what to do without schematics event).
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
1:36 p.m.
- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but
doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000
side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it.
I am trying to determine whether the light on the
front of the ST506 inside should be on or not once the
drive comes up to speed or whether it only comes on
when that HBIB address is being accessed. Any hints ?
Sounds like the device is responding to the "Parallel Poll" so the
controller recognizes there is a device at that address. This is an
iindication that the disk's HPIB interface is working correctly.
Apparently the disk is not.
When the disk is powered up, it should go through it's initialization
routine. During this phase, the indicator LED on the front panel should
blink at about 2 CPS. After 5 or 10 seconds, the disk will complete it's
initialization and the LED's will change state. An amber LED indicates a
disk failure, a steady green LED indicates that the disk / interface is
ready.
The green LED will blink when the device is busy. For short duration
events, (IE write / read) this will be momentary. For longer events,
like formatting a disk, the green LED will blink until the operation is
complete. Low level formatting is strictly a function of the HP9134. The
controller just sends the "format" command and the HPIB controller (in
the disk) does the rest.
It's possible using a HPIB bus analyzer to read the ERROR codes directly
from the interface. I doubt the 64000 has extended
diagnostics that will
display the exact failure mode.
I have had problems wit those particular drives before. I wouldn't be
surprised if the disk is toast :-(
NOTE: Although the HPIB spec allows devices to be addressed in the range
0 - 15, I have found that the 91XX disks don't work above ADDRESS = 7.
Check the address switches.
See ya, SteveRob
5:52 p.m.
At 06:06 AM 4/17/05 -0700, you wrote:
I have a couple of questions - and requests for
assistance - for some of the items I picked up this
weekend from TCF. My other post to the list details
what there are. Here goes:
- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but
doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000
side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it.
I don't know about the 64000 but the HP9000 200s and 300s display a list
of drives during bootup. Does the 64000 do that and does it show the drive?
On a 200 or 300 if you press any key druing boot it will stop the system
from booting an OS but it will go through the search
for drives and display
a list of drives and OSs. Defective drives will frequently
fail to show up
in the list or will be reported as bad. The list should look like this
<http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/hp-boot.htm>.
I am trying to determine whether the light on the
front of the ST506 inside should be on or not once the
drive comes up to speed or whether it only comes on
when that HBIB address is being accessed. Any hints ?
Is this one of the old wide biege units or one of the newer square white
ones? If it's a white one, disconnect it from the computer and then turn it
on. It will run a selftest and the fault light should go off within about
40 seconds. If it says on then the unit is bad! The access light will blink
when the unit is accessed and I THINK it blinks during the selftest. If the
unit passes selftest then the drive is almost certainly good and your fault
is elsewhere. I don't know if the old biege unit has the same lights and
operates the same way or not. let me know what you find out.
- Universe/68: Operating system for the Charles River
Data Systems Universe/68 anyone ? I understand these
machines used to run UNOS. It would be fun to try to
boot this thing. Also - any background information on
the machine itself would be of interest.
- I'd like to use a surplus VT420 as the display for
the DEC 350 Pro I picked up. This will entail
identifing a point on the VT420 schematic where I can
inject the composite video signal from the 350. So I
need the VT420 schematic. Does anyone on the list have
one ?
- manual or operating notes for the Zia Tech ZT 488 ?
I can probably figure this one out but documentation
is always welcome.
I have a couple of those cards and I'm pretty sure that I have the
manual and software SOMEWHERE but I have no idea if I can find it. If you
ind them from another source, let me know.
Thanks as always for the list's help.
Regards,
Dave
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8:24 p.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5766828959&…
looks like Guy S. sold a PDP11/55 for 5K! is that really the going rate?
wow!
Don't want to start the old "Ebay ~is~ the market" thread up again... but
on a technical note - the listing claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of
the blinkenlights
machines made by DEC.. Is that true?
I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but
add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ faster?
How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and
cache?
Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50?
h
9:38 p.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
On Sunday 17 April 2005 20:24, Heinz Wolter wrote:
--snip--
Don't want to start the old "Ebay ~is~ the
market" thread up again... but
on a technical note - the listing claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of
the blinkenlights
machines made by DEC.. Is that true?
I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but
add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ faster?
How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and
cache?
Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50?
Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. McNamara),
Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation
Page 408
--------
Model Basic Instructions Floating Point
Inst. per second* Inst. per second
-------------------------------------------
11/70 36 671
11/55 41 725
* Relative to 11/03
No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down.
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
9:48 p.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
On Sunday 17 April 2005 21:38, Lyle Bickley wrote:
Oops, just noticed minor typo - Page 406
Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J.
Craig Mudge, John E.
McNamara), Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation
Page 408
--------
Model Basic Instructions Floating Point
Inst. per second* Inst. per second
-------------------------------------------
11/70 36 671
11/55 41 725
* Relative to 11/03
No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down.
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
10 p.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
snipe
Lyle wrote:
McNamara),
> I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for
instruction faster - but
> add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~
faster?
How about
compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and
cache?
Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50?
Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E.
Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation
Page 408
--------
Model Basic Instructions Floating Point
Inst. per second* Inst. per second
-------------------------------------------
11/70 36 671
11/55 41 725
* Relative to 11/03
No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down.
sigh - I haven't memorized the DEC sacred texts yet;) no hardcopy, only
pdf...
So the 55 is roughly 14% faster than 70 - probably due to main memory
timing.
This might not be the case with the PEP70, though it's not stock.
Interesting
that the FP is only 8% faster - given that they are likely similarly
microded and
memory would not be such an issue working out of the FP registers. Clock
speed?
Then again... if one put 2 MW of 300ns ram on a 70.. well the 55 was only
18 bit address ;)
Anybody know the microclock frequency of both models? Variable timing/phase?
This variable microclock trick was later used in Vax/750 hot wiring kits..
On a similar vein, wasn't the 11/34c clock slowed to allow for cache timing,
making
it slower than a 34A? (for uncached accesses) Is is this a possible reason
for the 70's
poor performance? Running code withing the cache should have beaten the 55!
h
10:16 p.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
On Sunday 17 April 2005 22:00, you wrote:
snipe
Lyle wrote:
McNamara),
--snip--
> I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for
instruction faster - but
> add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~
faster?
How about
compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory
and cache?
Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50?
Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation
Page 408
--------
Model Basic Instructions Floating Point
Inst. per second* Inst. per second
-------------------------------------------
11/70 36 671
11/55 41 725
* Relative to 11/03
No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down.
sigh - I haven't memorized the DEC sacred texts yet;) no hardcopy, only
pdf... Running code withing the cache should have beaten the
55!
I'll stick with Gorden Bell.... :-)
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
18 Apr
18 Apr
12:59 a.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
Heinz wrote about the PDP-11/55:
claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of
the blinkenlights
machines made by DEC.. Is that true?
With bipolar memory, the 11/45 or 11/55 are definitely the fastest
DEC machines with "real" front panels.
I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for
instruction faster
No. The cache was roughly the same speed as the bipolar memory of
the 11/45 or 11/55, but main memory was slower. And access to Unibus
was slower.
How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of
factory memory and
cache?
With PEP70 (replaces DEC main memory) it should be faster. With PEP70 and
HC4x Hypercache (replaces DEC cache) it should be much faster.
With QED95, even faster yet. But is it still an 11/70 at that point?
Eric
8:20 a.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 00:59 -0700, Eric Smith wrote:
Heinz wrote about the PDP-11/55:
Just from running a simple blinking lights test, I can tell you that the
11/55 *is* faster than an 11/70 with PEP70 & Hypercache. I've run the
program on both and the 11/70 blinks the lights *fast*. When I run it
on the 11/55 you can't see the lights! At first I thought the 11/55 had
serious problems. Once I put in a longer delay than I usually use it
was still faster but you could actually see the lights.
claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of
the blinkenlights
machines made by DEC.. Is that true?
With bipolar memory, the 11/45 or 11/55 are definitely the fastest
DEC machines with "real" front panels.
I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for
instruction faster
No. The cache was roughly the same speed as the bipolar memory of
the 11/45 or 11/55, but main memory was slower. And access to Unibus
was slower.
How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70
instead of factory memory and
cache?
With PEP70 (replaces DEC main memory) it should be faster. With PEP70 and
HC4x Hypercache (replaces DEC cache) it should be much faster.
With QED95, even faster yet. But is it still an 11/70 at that point?
--
TTFN - Guy
8:24 a.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 23:24 -0400, Heinz Wolter wrote:
Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core?
or was that a 50?
Actually, the 11/45 came in 3 variations originally:
* core
* upto 64KW of MOS on the fastbus
* upto 64KW of Bipolar on the fastbus
The 11/50 was identical to the 11/45 and came standard with either MOS
or Bipolar on the fastbus.
The 11/55 is sort of half way between the 11/45 and 11/70 CPU-wise.
Most of the CPU boards are from the 11/45, but there are a number that
came from the 11/70 (including the FPU boards). It is a distinct CPU
from the 11/45 (as designated by the KB11D).
--
TTFN - Guy
12:25 p.m.
New subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11?
Heinz wrote:
Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core?
or was that a 50?
Guy wrote:
Actually, the 11/45 came in 3 variations originally:
* core
* upto 64KW of MOS on the fastbus
* upto 64KW of Bipolar on the fastbus
The 11/50 was identical to the 11/45 and came standard with either MOS
or Bipolar on the fastbus.
The 11/55 is sort of half way between the 11/45 and 11/70 CPU-wise.
Most of the CPU boards are from the 11/45, but there are a number that
came from the 11/70 (including the FPU boards). It is a distinct CPU
from the 11/45 (as designated by the KB11D).
But it's more complicated than that, because the 11/45 production was
switched to the KB11-D CPU as well.
It's basically safe to say that the distinctions between the 11/45,
11/50, and 11/55 were mostly marketing. The 11/50 and 11/55 were
apparently always shipped with at least some Fastbus memory, and
the 11/55 always had the KB11-D CPU (vs. KB11-A), but other than
that many combinations were possible.
The main difference between the KB11-A and KB11-D is that the FPP
interface of the latter is sychronous. (The same as the difference
between the KB11-B and KB11-C processors in the 11/70.) The
microword is four bits wider to support that.
Eric
10:31 a.m.
On 17 Apr 2005 at 6:06, David Comley wrote:
- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but
doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000
side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it.
Note that for use on the HP 64000, the 9134A must have been built with
Option 010. That configures the drive as a single 4.8 MB unit. The
standard configuration 9134A appears to the host as four 1.15 MB volumes to
emulate four 9895A floppy drives.
A sticker on the rear of the unit to the right of the serial plate should
show "OPT. 10" if it's a single unit configuration.
(I have one of these and used it successfully on an HP 64000, but it is
sloooow!)
-- Dave
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14 comments
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david_comley＠yahoo.com -
dr.ido＠bigpond.net.au -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
h.wolter＠sympatico.ca -
jdbryan＠acm.org -
lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
steerex＠mindspring.com