10 Jan
2009
10 Jan
'09
3:38 p.m.
Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or HVD? My understanding is
that HVD was the first type used and was just called differential F/W and then LVD came
out so the old standard was then called HVD.
I have some SUN Symbios 22802 cards coming in I wanted to use in a SUN Ultra Sparc 5 and I
think those are HVD (advertised as just differential and I didn't think to cross
check). Everything I have is SE/LVD.
10 Jan
10 Jan
7:40 p.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or
HD is LVD or HVD?
Has it got an external connector? If so it should have the appropriate symbol
next to it for the bus type - if you scroll to the bottom of the following
page then there's a quick overview of the symbols:
http://scsifaq.paralan.com/scsifaqanswers4.html
I have some SUN Symbios 22802 cards coming in I wanted
to use in a SUN
Ultra Sparc 5 and I think those are HVD (advertised as just differential
and I didn't think to cross check). Everything I have is SE/LVD.
I think there are converters to be purchased, but of course it's a
convenience/money equation...
(if none of that makes sense, blame the red wine)
cheers
Jules
8:54 p.m.
The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will
go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that
will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up
and plug them together.
The link below points to a company who makes the converters. Sometimes
they are available on Ebay, and there are some repackaged by Compaq and
HP that show up. They make both the 50 an 68 pin versions. I doubt
they will work over 5m/sec with HVD involved, however.
Will Adaptec controllers work in the Ultra5? I have many 2944's and
3944's available to play with but have not tried them.
Jim
<snip>
<snip>
12 Jan
12 Jan
11:20 a.m.
From: jim s
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM
The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into
a SE bus it will
go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that
will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up
and plug them together.
I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI,
and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed
to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with <insert $DEITY here>. We were
in complete accordance with the SCSI specs.
[ Regarding Paralan: ]
The link below points to a company who makes the
converters. Sometimes
they are available on Ebay, and there are some repackaged by Compaq and
HP that show up. They make both the 50 an 68 pin versions. I doubt
they will work over 5m/sec with HVD involved, however.
They work at 10MB/second on the Toad. We had to include one in the system
because HP DAT drives and Quantum DLT drives were unavailable with differential
interfaces.
I purchased a Paralan HVD/LVD converter here in order to attach a SCSI JBoD
array to the Toad, in anticipation of hosting a lot of data.
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
12:25 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
Rich Alderson wrote:
From: jim s
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM
speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of
these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there
to be found ?
They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the
(physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ?
-- Curt
The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it
into a SE bus it will
go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that
will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up
and plug them together.
I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI,
and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed
to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with <insert $DEITY here>. We were
in complete accordance with the SCSI specs.
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
12:32 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.
<rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
Rich Alderson wrote:
I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain.
John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
From: jim s
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM
speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of
these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there
to be found ?
They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the
(physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ?
-- Curt
The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will
go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that
will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up
and plug them together.
I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential
SCSI,
and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was
guaranteed
to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with <insert $DEITY here>. We
were
in complete accordance with the SCSI specs.
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
1:32 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
From: John Floren
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:32 PM
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.
<rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
> Rich Alderson wrote:
>> The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE
differential SCSI,
[snip]
> speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how
many of
> these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there
> to be found ?
> They look pretty cool... and other than an
emulator, I do believe the
> (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ?
I *think* the Systems Concepts SC-25 fit into a BA-23 style cabinet,
but I never saw one. (My only experience with SC boxen was the SC-30M
at Stanford LOTS, which was a 5ft tall 30in square cabinet.) If
that's true, it might have been epsilon smaller than the Toad-1.
I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see
how many remain.
We built fewer than 20. A dozen were used in-house as a platform for
the next product, which went through several years of iterating into
what you now find on the XKL web site. (They may still be in use, but
I haven't worked for XKL for nearly 6 years and don't know what
they're using these days.)
Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems.
These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed
into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed
into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other
was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was
doing (or perhaps he did).
One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing
contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the
Computer History Museum.
One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public
access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site,
under the Community button.
One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has
been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco
Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the
Toad-1.
John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
"That is not dead which can sleeping lie,
And with strange eons even death may die."
(Otherwise, none of us would be doing any of this, whether as a hobby
or in a professional context.)
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
1:59 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
You can get an account on the XKL TOAD at pdpplanet.
<http://www.pdpplanet.com/TemplateLogin.aspx?contentId=11>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
13 Jan
13 Jan
8:19 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg,
unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he
has done a lot of work for Cisco)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I'd sure
like to find one... be interested to see how many remain.
We built fewer than 20. A dozen were used in-house as a platform for
the next product, which went through several years of iterating into
what you now find on the XKL web site. (They may still be in use, but
I haven't worked for XKL for nearly 6 years and don't know what
they're using these days.)
Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems.
These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed
into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed
into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other
was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was
doing (or perhaps he did).
One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing
contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the
Computer History Museum.
One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public
access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site,
under the Community button.
One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has
been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco
Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the
Toad-1.
12:39 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
From: Dave McGuire
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:19 AM
On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
[snip]
> Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4
KL-10 systems.
> These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed
> into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed
> into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other
> was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was
> doing (or perhaps he did).
> One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of
the licensing
> contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the
> Computer History Museum.
> One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely
available for public
> access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site,
> under the Community button.
> One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10
equipment who has
> been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco
> Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the
> Toad-1.
And one is in the possession of my acquaintance
Peter Lothberg,
unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he
has done a lot of work for Cisco)
Mm-hmm.
He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the
owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use
*anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public
knowledge.
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
4:23 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
On Jan 13, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
As far as I'm aware, it is public knowledge. At least he never
treated it as much of a secret.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
And one is
in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg,
unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he
has done a lot of work for Cisco)
Mm-hmm.
He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the
owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use
*anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public
knowledge. 
9:36 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Rich Alderson wrote:
He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe.
His friend, the
owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use
*anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public
knowledge.
So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they
were being produced?
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
14 Jan
14 Jan
8:21 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they
were being produced?
Yes, exactly my question.
And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale?
(I'd *love* to get my hands on one)
-brad
10:33 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Brad Parker wrote:
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Who wouldn't... I've wanted one since I found out about them...
however, given the # that were made.... I probably have a better
chance of finding a cheap Apple I at a yard sale... sigh...
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from
emulation.
I hold out hope for a PDP-8/I, E, F, or M someday... but I haven't
found one in my realm of affordability.... if only I had gotten into
old hardware sooner....
-- Curt
So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did
a Toad-1 sell for when they
were being produced?
Yes, exactly my question.
And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale?
(I'd *love* to get my hands on one)
-brad
11:08 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>,
"Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have
to come from
emulation.
Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
11:23 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Richard wrote:
In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at
hawkmountain.net>,
"Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-)
With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine
eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what
would the spares availability be :-)
-- Curt
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely
have to come from
emulation.
Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-)
11:32 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.
<rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
Richard wrote:
Sorta sounds like it would be easier to get a real PDP-10 than to find a TOAD
--
"I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS
reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C,
Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba
In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>,
"Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-)
With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine
eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what
would the spares availability be :-)
-- Curt
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from
emulation.
Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-)
1:38 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
From: John Floren
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:33 AM
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.
<rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
> Richard wrote:
>> In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at
hawkmountain.net>,
>> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
>>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will
likely have to come from
>>> emulation.
>> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD.
I did. Its fun :-)
> I'm sure.... but not like having your own !
:-)
> With such a low number of them out there....
I'd imagine
> eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what
> would the spares availability be :-)
This is actually of some concern to us.
Sorta sounds like it would be easier to get a real
PDP-10 than to find
a TOAD
Unless by "real PDP-10" you mean specifically a KA-10 or KI-10 processor
and associated peripherals, I'm going to have to object on behalf of the
XKL and Systems Concepts products, along with the Foonly family and the
MAXC system built at PARC.
I am firmly on the microcode side of the "real hardware" vs. microcode
argument when it comes to defining system architectures. Otherwise, the
KL-10 processor is not a PDP-10.
I am also on the architecture trumps manufacturer side of *that*
argument. The Amdahl, Hitachi, and Fujitsu articles are just as much
360/370 systems as the IBM offerings; they'd be just as desirable for
the work they can do (if not more so). Nameplate coolness factor does
not equate to architecture, IMAO.
Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems
left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10
systems.
From: Pontus
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:05 PM
> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the
power bills or setup the
> HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not
much need for raised
floor, don't know about power though.
Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about
1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the
original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on
inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA.
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
11:39 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all
the KA-10 systems
left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10
systems.
I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I
don't know about :)
Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about
1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the
original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on
inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA.
I Wish we could get our DECsystem-20 running again, I think we could get
the power, but space and cooling is more of a concern.
Regards,
Pontus
15 Jan
15 Jan
10:53 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
From: Pontus
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:40 PM
> Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine,
all the KA-10
> systems left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are
> all the KI-10 systems.
I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there
another big collector
I don't know about :)
Yes, I did. Too many Swedish PDP-10 hackers to keep track of without a
program, you know? ;-)
Thanks for the correction!
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
14 Jan
14 Jan
11:37 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>,
"Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the
HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
Just get an
account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-)
I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-)
12:05 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power
bills or setup the
HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised
floor, don't know about power though.
http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/index.cgi?xkl-murdock2.jpg
/P
12:14 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts
machines at the Hilliard, OH, data center in 2003 - my stuff was a
wall of Alpha CPUs and disk, several rows away from the 36-bit
hardware, but I still had to walk by it every day. I _think_ it was a
small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of
how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL,
MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines and
that more than one attempt to re-write that stuff had ended with a
lack of success. No idea if they are _still_ running it or not, but a
replacement was not in sight by late 2003.
The Toad does look great, though. For now though, like most of the
list, I'll be getting my 36-bit fix via klh10 and the graces of Paul
Allen.
I occasionally check in on the 10-on-an-FPGA projects from time to
time, but I can't allocate a lot of money to that aspect of the hobby,
so I sit on the sidelines and see how they are coming along.
For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really
need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's
what I'm doing. I still wouldn't mind owning real 36-bit hardware,
but unless it was some sort of rescue, I don't see it happening in my
future.
-ethan
Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the
power bills or setup the
HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised
floor, don't know about power though.
http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/index.cgi?xkl-murdock2.jpg
1:46 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
From: Ethan Dicks
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:15 PM
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Pontus <pontus at
update.uu.se>> wrote:
> The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not
much need for raised
> floor, don't know about power though.
That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems
Concepts
machines at the Hilliard, OH, data center in 2003 - my stuff was a
wall of Alpha CPUs and disk, several rows away from the 36-bit
hardware, but I still had to walk by it every day. I _think_ it was a
small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of
how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL,
MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines and
that more than one attempt to re-write that stuff had ended with a
lack of success. No idea if they are _still_ running it or not, but a
replacement was not in sight by late 2003.
Those were SC40s. Mike and Stewart licensed CompuServe to build their
own for a discounted fee (IIRC 40% of list).
Around 2001 we got a call from someone in one of those offices, but by
then we were completely out of the business of selling Toad-1 systems.
Too bad, because the CEO of CIS blew off a meeting (with people waiting
in his outer office) the day of the NT announcement.
The Toad does look great, though. For now though,
like most of the
list, I'll be getting my 36-bit fix via klh10 and the graces of Paul
Allen.
I occasionally check in on the 10-on-an-FPGA projects
from time to
time, but I can't allocate a lot of money to that aspect of the hobby,
so I sit on the sidelines and see how they are coming along.
For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon),
I don't really
need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's
what I'm doing. I still wouldn't mind owning real 36-bit hardware,
but unless it was some sort of rescue, I don't see it happening in my
future.
Happy to help!
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
2:12 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
Ah, yes. I kinda missed that era. I was a contractor at CompuServe
in 1994/1995, then worked other places until I was a CompuServe/AOL
employee in 2001, quite a time after the heyday of the SC machines
_and_ the "silver bullet" 32-bit servers. As of a couple of years
ago, the SC40s at the old CIS headquarters were still up and running,
but they've laid off so many from that facility that I don't get news
like I used to.
Yes. Thanks for the assistance over the years!
-ethan
From: Ethan
Dicks
That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts
... in 2003... I _think_ it was a
small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of
how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL,
MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines...
Those were SC40s. Mike and Stewart licensed CompuServe to build their
own for a discounted fee (IIRC 40% of list). Around 2001 we got a call from someone in one of those
offices, but by
then we were completely out of the business of selling Toad-1 systems.
Too bad, because the CEO of CIS blew off a meeting (with people waiting
in his outer office) the day of the NT announcement.
That was right about the time I was coming back, I think.
For what I do
(Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really
need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's
what I'm doing.
Happy to help!
12:06 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote:
In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at
hawkmountain.net>,
"Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the
HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
Then, what's the point?
Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours
and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space
to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the
resale value of your house. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Just get
an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-)
I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-)
12:19 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Patrick Finnegan
<pat at computer-refuge.org> wrote:
On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote:
I already have the raised floor (about 400 sq ft). I just need a
modern building out on my land to install the flooring in (right now,
the 11/70s and 11/750s and most of the other H960s are in a 1950s
quonset hut - it's cute, but the curved walls are inefficient for
trying to make a datacenter in the corner of, so the flooring is
stacked, waiting for a rectilinear building to go up next door).
That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without
upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut
*combined*.
-ethan
In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at
hawkmountain.net>,
Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the
HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
Then, what's the point?
Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours
and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space
to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the
resale value of your house. :) 
15 Jan
15 Jan
11:03 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote:
That and I don't have adequate electric service to
the place without
upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut
*combined*.
24kW should be enough for anyone ;-)
Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only
11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that.
Gordon
11:27 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ
<gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S.
Fortunately I have a gas stove and gas heat and gas hot water, but the
oven is electric, and so is the dryer.
The quonset hut presently has a 30A breaker at the disconnect at the
pole. I can run a couple of items at once (say an 11/750 and disk),
but I'd rather not be out there replacing cartridge fuses on a regular
basis.
-ethan
That and I don't have adequate electric
service to the place without
upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut
*combined*.
24kW should be enough for anyone ;-)
Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only
11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. 
11:57 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce
MM3YEQ
<gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were rated for
amps across the full 240V of the main feed?
Peace... Sridhar
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks
wrote:
Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. That and I don't have adequate electric
service to the place without
upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut
*combined*.
24kW should be enough for anyone ;-)
Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only
11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. 
12:10 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar
<ploopster at gmail.com> writes:
Sridhar> Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce
MM3YEQ
> <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place
>>> without upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and
>>> quonset hut *combined*.
>> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-)
>>
>> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's
>> only 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that.
> Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S.
Sridhar> I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system
Sridhar> were rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed?
Sort of. Amps per leg, so if you have a 100 amp feed, that means you
have TWO 110 volt legs each rated at 100 amps. You can hang onto that
200 amps worth of 110 volt loads, or 100 amps worth of 220 volt loads,
or some blend of the two (provided the 110 volt loads are well enough
balanced across the two legs that neither hits its individual 100 amp
limit).
Some US homes have only one leg (just 110 volt) but I think that's
only for ancient 30 amp and maybe 60 amp feeds; 100 and 200 are always
"two phase".
So we're pretty close to Gordon.
paul
12:14 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Paul Koning wrote:
Sort of. Amps per leg, so if you have a 100 amp feed,
that means you
have TWO 110 volt legs each rated at 100 amps. You can hang onto that
200 amps worth of 110 volt loads, or 100 amps worth of 220 volt loads,
or some blend of the two (provided the 110 volt loads are well enough
balanced across the two legs that neither hits its individual 100 amp
limit).
So you still have to multiply the rating by 240V to get the watts.
Some US homes have only one leg (just 110 volt) but I
think that's
only for ancient 30 amp and maybe 60 amp feeds; 100 and 200 are always
"two phase".
So we're pretty close to Gordon.
I figured.
Peace... Sridhar
7:31 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
In many cases, the power is 208v 3-phase (that's measured between any
two phases). If you look at each phase to ground you see ~110-120v.
Single phase 220v is sometimes done by using two of the three phases.
You don't get the full voltage but usually equipment doesn't care too
much.
All of the US DEC gear that uses 3-phase is the 208v 3-phase variety.
There's another version of 3-phase that doesn't allow this. I'm not
an electrician so I don't know the exact differences.
My shop is wired for 208v 3-phase and it make running things like my
2065 & RP06s *much* easier (although not easy on the wallet). :-)
TTFN - Guy
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce
MM3YEQ
<gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were rated
for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks
wrote:
Um... yeah... 11kW,
not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. That and I don't have adequate electric
service to the place
without
upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut
*combined*.
24kW should be enough for anyone ;-)
Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's
only
11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that.
16 Jan
16 Jan
7:27 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor
<ggs at shiresoft.com> writes:
Guy> On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
> I thought that main breakers in the US
split-phase system were
> rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed?
Guy> In many cases, the power is 208v 3-phase (that's measured
Guy> between any two phases). If you look at each phase to ground
Guy> you see ~110-120v.
Right, that's called 120/208 Y (or "wye"). You have three phase wires
plus a neutral. So if phase to neutral is 120 volts nominal, then
phase to phase is 2 x 120 / cos (30degrees) which is 208 volts.
Guy> Single phase 220v is sometimes done by using
Guy> two of the three phases. You don't get the full voltage but
Guy> usually equipment doesn't care too much.
No, that's not how it is done.
In the USA, homes don't get 3 phase power. Instead, the transformer
feeding the house has a 240 volt secondary which is center-tapped
where the center is grounded (neutral). So you have two "hot" wires
180 degrees out of phase, 240 volts between them and 120 volts between
each and neutral. And it uses only one transformer, and draws on only
one phase from the high voltage line along the road. In fact, away
from densely populated areas you will often see just
one wire on top
of the pole, whic is one of the three high voltage phases.
Guy> All of the US DEC gear that uses 3-phase is the 208v 3-phase
Guy> variety. There's another version of 3-phase that doesn't allow
Guy> this. I'm not an electrician so I don't know the exact
Guy> differences.
There are lots of choices. If you want to be able to power 120 volt
appliances and need 3 phase power, then 120/208 Y connected is the
logical approach. If you need 3 phase but no 1 phase (say, for
motors) then 240 volt delta (no neutral, three phase lines, 240 volts
between phases) works well. Need more power? Use 480 instead of 240.
I've seen references to 277/480 Y, so you have 480 phase to phase for
motors and single phase stuff (like lights) get 277. That doesn't
show up in homes but it sounds like you might find it in factories.
A different scheme for getting 120 in a three phase setting that I've
seen mentioned in books uses a three-phase transformer wired delta
fashion, 240 volts between phases, with one of the three center-tapped
and the center grounded. So from those wires you can get 120 volt
(phase to neutral).
There are probably other schemes, especially in power hungry
factories...
paul
7:19 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Thursday (01/15/2009 at 07:03PM +0000), Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:
Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V
countries, that's only
11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that.
Wow... an electric shower. Around here we just have electric chairs.
--
Chris Elmquist
mailto:chrise at pobox.com
14 Jan
14 Jan
12:21 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote:
Well that just means that you have to sell to someone on the list.
They'll understand the "value add" of a temperature controlled dinosaur
cage where the garage used to be. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at
hawkmountain.net>,
"Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." <rescue at hawkmountain.net> writes:
Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the
HVAC, the raised floor, etc.
Then, what's the point?
Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours
and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space
to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the
resale value of your house. :)
Just get
an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-)
I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) 
12:28 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Gene Buckle wrote:
Well that just means that you have to sell to someone
on the list. They'll
understand the "value add" of a temperature controlled dinosaur cage where
the garage used to be. :)
At the moment I'm interested in advice as to how to go about doing some sort
of temperature control. Of course my wife says that if I put A/C in the
garage, I first have to do the house. I gather one of my coworkers has a
small server shed in the back yard with A/C, but no A/C in the house. :-)
We are in the process of trying to buy a house, and one of our key
requirements is that the garage can house the contents of my storage unit,
and ideally have room for a row of computer racks, including the two racks
housing the PDP-11/44 I have in my parents garage. :-)
Zane
12:14 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.
<rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from
emulation.
I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel:
http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm
It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and
your family!
Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your
TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere.
-Seth
12:24 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Seth Morabito wrote:
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar
Jr.
<rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
Are they available again?
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from
emulation.
I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel:
http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm
It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and
your family! Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running
TOPS-20, so your
TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere.
I don't know about the Panda Display Panel, but KLH10 emulates either a KS10
or a KL10B, and will run ITS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20.
Zane
1:13 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
The display panel works with KLH10, but there is a necessary 36-bit
software component to fiddle all the lights. I know it exists for
TOPS-20. I have no knowledge of it for other 36-bit OSes.
-ethan
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Seth Morabito wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.
> <rescue at hawkmountain.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from
>> emulation.
>
> I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel:
>
> http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm
>
> It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and
> your family!
Agreed. I have one. I love it. I should get some pictures of mine.
I spent a bunch of time working on the blank plate, the spacers, etc.,
and it all fits together wonderfully (as with most STG products, I
just bought bare boards).
Are they available again?
They were last year. Not sure about today. I burn my own GALs and
have a pile of generic components, so I don't usually shop for "full
kits".
Of course, it
only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your
TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere.
I don't know about the Panda Display Panel, but KLH10 emulates either a KS10
or a KL10B, and will run ITS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20.
12:16 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote:
Brad Parker wrote:
There is another option besides "emulation", and that is for some dedicated
hobbyist(s) to build the equivalent of an XKL-1. Both Neil Franklin and
Doug Conroy have done work in this area. Neil Franklin stopped work on his
project in 2003, and I don't know the status of Doug Conroy's project.
http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/PDP-10/
Realistically I recommend either getting an acount on one of the systems
that are on the Internet, or else buy an Atom-based motherboard and build
your own. Anything faster than about a 200Mhz PC will be fast enough, but I
like the idea of modern and low-power for something like this. Put your
favorite Linux install on there, and install KLH10. You'll want a
motherboard that allows you to dedicate an ethernet card to KLH10. I've
threatened to take a Mini-ITX board and place it inside of a VT100 for just
this purpose. With the current advances in PC parts it would be very easy.
I've also had a DECserver talking to TOPS-10 (at least I think it was -10)
under KLH10.
Zane
Yes, exactly my question.
And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale?
(I'd *love* to get my hands on one)
Who wouldn't... I've wanted one since I found out about them...
however, given the # that were made.... I probably have a better
chance of finding a cheap Apple I at a yard sale... sigh...
I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from
emulation.
12:20 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD
Brad Parker wrote:
You'd be bidding up against some people with *very* deep pockets.
Peace... Sridhar
So, for
curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they
were being produced?
Yes, exactly my question.
And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale?
(I'd *love* to get my hands on one)
11:20 a.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
From: Patrick Finnegan
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:36 PM
So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a
Toad-1 sell for when they
were being produced?
A base system cost $125,000 in 1995. That comprises
1 XKL-1 CPU (PDP-10 architecture, all KL-10 user code compatible,
although the I/O instruction set differs radically)
1 XRH-1 4-port FASTWIDE differential SCSI controller (allowing
attachment of up to 15 devices/port)
1 XNI-1 4-port Ethernet interface, providing AUI and 10baseT
connections
1 XMG-1 32MW memory (KL-10 physical maximum is 4MW)
1 4GB disk drive (internal to system cabinet)
1 DDS-2 tape drive (HP OEM, with a Paralan single-ended to
differential card)
That took up 4 slots of the 7 slot backplane. At XKL, we installed a
full 128MW in a system just to verify that our OS mods to support it
worked correctly, and it passed all tests with flying colors.
We would also sell you an M4 9914 9-track tape drive so that you could
deal with legacy tapes (backups, installation media, etc.) if you wanted.
Later, when we started using multiple 9GB drives in our own systems, we
replaced the DAT drives with Quantum DLT8000 drives. If we had continued
to sell systems that would have been the configuration you got for the
base price.
A note on the memory: TOPS-20, as it turns out, is memory-starved on a
KL-10 with the maximum memory. When MCI/Tymnet replaced two KL-10
systems running an early fork of Tops-10 with a Toad-1 running TOPS-20,
they went from 100 users per system with 1-2 *minute* response times to
200 users on a single system with *subsecond* response times.
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
2:16 p.m.
New subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart)
>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson
<RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
Rich> A note on the memory: TOPS-20, as it turns out, is
Rich> memory-starved on a KL-10 with the maximum memory. When
Rich> MCI/Tymnet replaced two KL-10 systems running an early fork of
Rich> Tops-10 with a Toad-1 running TOPS-20, they went from 100 users
Rich> per system with 1-2 *minute* response times to 200 users on a
Rich> single system with *subsecond* response times.
Interesting, considering that PLATO ran on roughly the same memory but
a slower processor, and supported 600 users with subsecond response
time in 1975. I suppose it goes to show you that software can make
any machine slow. But then again we all know that by now... :-)
paul
12 Jan
12 Jan
3 p.m.
Rich Alderson wrote:
From: jim s
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM
We had a SCSI development system at Peer Protocols, as well as wide
sniffer. on the sense side, with the sniffer, we did hadd an electrical
design that could tolerate the misconnection of devices and not catch
fire, though we had a standard adapter to go from differential to SE
that you were supposed to use.
The design used at least with our equipment would be in reset.
I don't know what happend if you plugged something in with the power on,
but if you connected the pile up and it was wrong and then powered
things up, you were covered. Also I don't recall if there was any
issues in the device order.
My observation in the previous post had to do with seeing the reset on
our analyzer when the HD device was connected and wondering why the bus
was held reset. It was a non smoking situation.
I wonder if perhaps the problem was with the fact it was wide and not
the narrow variety of bus? The additional 8 bits and parity were sort
of the bastard child added. on after the fact of the original design.
It was quite a trick to figure out w/o watching the SCSI Domain info
whether all 16 bits were active or just 8 in a give transfer. This
might apply to hardware as well.
Jim
The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it
into a SE bus it will
go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that
will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up
and plug them together.
I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI,
and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed
to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with <insert $DEITY here>. We were
in complete accordance with the SCSI specs.
13 Jan
13 Jan
8:21 a.m.
You wrote:
The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into
a SE bus it will
go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD
that
will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you
mess up
and plug them together.
DIFFSENS is a nice idea, but some drives don't implement it. I've
had differential drives go up in smoke because of this. Granted this
was a long time ago (1993) and the drives were small (600MB?), so
this was more in the days of creative interpretation of the SCSI
standard.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
12 Jan
12 Jan
6:42 a.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or
HD is LVD or
HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was
just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old
standard was then called HVD.
The part number on the chip.
Peace... Sridhar
8 a.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Teo Zenios wrote:
I usually get clued in on controllers via termination
resistor
chips/packs. Probably not guaranteed to be a perfect way,
but in my limited amount of HVD stuff, it has at least been
100% correct so far :-)
-- Curt
Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller
or HD is LVD or
HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was
just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old
standard was then called HVD.
The part number on the chip.
Peace... Sridhar
5771
days inactive
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47 comments
20 participants
participants (20)
-
brad＠heeltoe.com -
chrise＠pobox.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
Paul_Koning＠Dell.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
pontus＠update.uu.se -
rescue＠hawkmountain.net -
RichA＠vulcan.com -
sethm＠loomcom.com -
slawmaster＠gmail.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com