HI Devin, In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on a testboard and applied power and clock. Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to read on those sites. Thanks, Holm Devin Monnens wrote: -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

confimation I have just examined on a real BK0010 using Mirage the debugger the msbyte of the address 177716 is always 100 whatever you do (as I can see),the lsbyte varies but not the msbyte ,so the principle that the starting address of the processor is made od the msbyte of address 177716+000 for lsbyte.100+000 gives an adress of 100000,type g100000 in the debugger makes a good clean start of the machine.I think it is a register in the support circuit k1801BM1-014 best regards a.n ----- Original Message ----- From: "nierveze" <nierveze at radio-astronomie.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:26 AM Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address? >hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather >sophisticated,here here is what I have found: >first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2: >*at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low) >*when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts >immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also >*DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors >clears the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if >this period internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work >*ACLO should be low for 70 ms >*after there arre differences in the processors: >*the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc from address 177716(selected by >SEL1),the lsb of >the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is >filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be >physically in a small rom, >a register bank ,or in support circuit??? >*for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a >74ls 244 programmed by a bank of switches as in the case of the >T11),selected by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the starting >address in rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2 >Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more >poor as hours:-))) >I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei Vakulenko >(vak.ru,page of projects) >You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those >microprocessors that use a similar startup procedure. >I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics >of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not >have . >But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the >startup procedure. >Timing and reset circuits can be found in 'personal computers BK -0010 >BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK >Can you please explain more precisely what you have done??? >Thanks best regards >Alin Nierveze > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM >Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address? > > >>HI Devin, >> >>In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on >>a testboard and applied power and clock. >>Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to >>read on those sites. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Holm >> >>Devin Monnens wrote: >> >>>Holm, >>> >>>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in >>>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided >>>these sources to check for solutions to your problems: >>> >>>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here >>>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask >>>here or maybe here: >>>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418 >>>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist. >>> >>>-Devin Monnens >>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 14 >>>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100 >>>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> >>>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >>>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address? >>>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >>>> >>>> >>>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2). >>>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems >>>> to >>>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup. >>>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o >>>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC. >>>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the >>>> start >>>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1? >>>> Can anyone please confirm this? >>>> >>>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW? >>>> >>>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special >>>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so? >>>> >>>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance, >>>> >>>> Holm >>>> -- >>>> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >>>> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >>>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Devin Monnens >>>www.deserthat.com >>> >>>The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >> >>-- >> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >> >

hello,yes you are right the processors are different, I have both of them here I found the source listing for odt for bk/dvk the differences are starting address and the fact that the bk has a video integrated not a terminal console http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4113 it will be easier to understand and modify in case of need alain

----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:25 AM Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address? >Hmm, The BK0010 is using an K1801VM1 CPU that don't use this way of >adressless read to start up. This is only on the K1801VM2 and the K1806VM2 >so far as I know... >I think the VM1 is doing the startup using the SEL1 Line, but I haven't >read that much about this processor. >But all of them have no ODT microcode, but an external ROM with the ODT >Debugger in them. For the VM2 the code is in the K1801RE2 on the DBK >Machines. > >Regards, > >Holm > >nierveze wrote: > >>confimation >>I have just examined on a real BK0010 using Mirage the debugger >>the msbyte of the address 177716 is always 100 whatever you do (as I can >>see),the lsbyte varies but not the msbyte ,so the principle that the >>starting address of the processor is made od the msbyte of address >>177716+000 for lsbyte.100+000 gives an adress of 100000,type g100000 in >>the >>debugger makes a good clean start of the machine.I think it is a register >>in the support circuit k1801BM1-014 >>best regards >>a.n >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "nierveze" <nierveze at radio-astronomie.com> >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> >>Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:26 AM >>Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o >>address? >> >> >>>hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather >>>sophisticated,here here is what I have found: >>>first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2: >>>*at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low) >>>*when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts >>>immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also >>>*DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors >>>clears the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if >>>this period internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work >>>*ACLO should be low for 70 ms >>>*after there arre differences in the processors: >>>*the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc from address 177716(selected by >>>SEL1),the lsb of >>>the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is >>>filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be >>>physically in a small rom, >>>a register bank ,or in support circuit??? >>>*for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a >>>74ls 244 programmed by a bank of switches as in the case of the >>>T11),selected by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the >>>starting >>>address in rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2 >>>Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more >>>poor as hours:-))) >>>I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei >>>Vakulenko >>>(vak.ru,page of projects) >>>You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those >>>microprocessors that use a similar startup procedure. >>>I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics >>>of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not >>>have . >>>But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the >>>startup procedure. >>>Timing and reset circuits can be found in 'personal computers BK -0010 >>>BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK >>>Can you please explain more precisely what you have done??? >>>Thanks best regards >>>Alin Nierveze >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> >>>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>>Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM >>>Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o >>>address? >>> >>> >>>>HI Devin, >>>> >>>>In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU >>>>on >>>>a testboard and applied power and clock. >>>>Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads >>>>to >>>>read on those sites. >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>> >>>>Holm >>>> >>>>Devin Monnens wrote: >>>> >>>>>Holm, >>>>> >>>>>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in >>>>>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but >>>>>provided >>>>>these sources to check for solutions to your problems: >>>>> >>>>>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here >>>>>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask >>>>>here or maybe here: >>>>>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418 >>>>>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist. >>>>> >>>>>-Devin Monnens >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Message: 14 >>>>>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100 >>>>>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> >>>>>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >>>>>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o >>>>>> address? >>>>>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2). >>>>>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems >>>>>> to >>>>>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup. >>>>>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o >>>>>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC. >>>>>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the >>>>>> start >>>>>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1? >>>>>> Can anyone please confirm this? >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW? >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o >>>>>> special >>>>>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so? >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance, >>>>>> >>>>>> Holm >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >>>>>> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >>>>>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Devin Monnens >>>>>www.deserthat.com >>>>> >>>>>The sleep of Reason produces monsters. >>>> >>>>-- >>>> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >>>> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >>>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >>>> >>> > >-- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >

I've plugged the VM2 in such a white testboard where you can build small electronics simply by putting wires in holes. (Don't know how they are called in english, sorry).

That's what I've always heard them called. I know they're generally considered terrible, but I've had lots of luck with them for low-speed projects (especially power supplies for tube amps; I've got one that's covered with capacitor juice from various electrolytics exploding and has some melted-out holes resulting from diodes installed backwards but still manages to work just fine).

That said, different strokes for different folks. If Tony, or anyone else for that matter, finds soldering works better, I'd never try to argue otherwise. For me, with my skills and preferences and the kinds of stuff I do, solderless breadboards are a huge win - but those qualifications are important.

I find they save time. Not so much because it's faster to build something that way, but because it's a lot easier to do experimental stuff that way, stuff that involves lots of test-change-retest cycles,

and that's a lot of the electronics I do. Similarly, it's a lot easier to rip the circuit apart and put the parts back in stock in shape suitable for future experimentation.

It also greatly cuts down on scorched/burnt skin. :)

That said, different strokes for different folks. If Tony, or anyone else for that matter, finds soldering works better, I'd never try to argue otherwise. For me, with my skills and preferences and the kinds of stuff I do, solderless breadboards are a huge win - but those qualifications are important.

That's not what I'm talking about. Any tool can be misused, and that

is a misuse of this one - nor is someone who engages in that sort of

I once built a phase-shift oscillator out of three RC phase-shift stages and an op-amp. But I wanted something as close as feasible to a sine wave. So I put a variable resistor in the op-amp fedback, to control the gain. Then I fiddled with that. Crank the gain up and I got a severely clipped waveform; crank it down and it wouldn't oscillate (neither of which was surprising in the least). I fiddled with it until I found a setting that made the amplitude just barely grow, growing until it just barely clipped, at which point it stabilized. (It grew fairly slowly; it took multiple seconds to reach the point of clipping and stabilizing.) Finding the exact resistor value theoretically would have required knowing precise values for the components in the R-C network, the other resistor in the op-amp feedback, loading from parasitic capacitance (actually, the frequency - something in the audio range, I think - was low enough that one might have been ignorable), etc. I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never actually got the round tuits for that.

Perhaps. But it requires enough current flowing in the feedback

divider to warm the bulb's filament significantly. I'd rather avoid dissipating that much power - not to mention that I'm not sure the op-amp I was using was capable of it.

It also requires the bulb. I have very few incandescent bulbs that are

Okay. 120 mW is more power than the whole circuit was drawing, I think (this was quite a while ago).

I don't think Tony meant any insult here.

I have done it, actually, though I think without the "no real understanding of why" part. For example, I once built a phase-shift oscillator out of three RC phase-shift stages and an op-amp. But I wanted something as close as feasible to a sine wave. So I put a variable resistor in the op-amp fedback, to control the gain. Then I fiddled with that. Crank the gain up and I got a severely clipped waveform; crank it down and it wouldn't oscillate (neither of which was surprising in the least). I fiddled with it until I found a setting that made the amplitude just barely grow, growing until it just barely clipped, at which point it stabilized. (It grew fairly slowly; it took multiple seconds to reach the point of clipping and stabilizing.) Finding the exact resistor value theoretically would have required knowing precise values for the components in the R-C network, the other resistor in the op-amp feedback, loading from parasitic capacitance (actually, the frequency - something in the audio range, I think - was low enough that one might have been ignorable), etc.

I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never actually got the round tuits for that.

It fits the "fiddle until it seems to work" words you used, but I don't think it's the kind of design-without-understanding you appear to have meant to be (correctly, IMO) castigating.

On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb, but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is running class A).

Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.

Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this. The bulb outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)

from the AGC is fast compared to the bulb's warmup/cooldown time.

I thoguht in the end he amanged ot get the FET cirucit to be better than the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).

YEs, a great book. Along with Bob Pease's book ('Analog circuit troubleshooting' or soemthign like that). Well worth reading.

Isn't that basically what I said?

I didn't; realise he used an LED + LDR in the cirucit. It's a long time sinc eI read the book, so I must have forgotten that. I'd sort-of assumed it used only purely electronic (as opposed to optoelectornic) parts

I will try to dgi out my copy and post the exact title, ISBN, etc if you like. I maye have misrememebered the title above, but _anything_ by Bob Pease is IMHO worth reading (ditto Jim Williams) [1], and if you find a book with those sorts of words in the title, it's probably the one.

[1] I don't necessarily agree with everythign they write, but it's all worth reading. To be abvle to disagree with it you have to understand it, and you'll learn a lot by so doing...

I rememebr reading about a Mullard (Philips) device that consisted of a filament and a numbero LDRs in a B(A-baed bottle (about the size of an ECC83/12AX7). I think the number was RPY13. It appears to have been a predecessor of the optoisolator. I've never seen one.

What do they use for LDRs nowadays? cThe ones I used were cadmium sulphide (CdS), but I beleive cadmium is frowned upon now :-(

On the one hand, that feels right. On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb, but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is running class A).

Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.

So was I. Right. What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in the FET-based version. I'm probably just missing something. (Does a FET, modeled as a voltage-controlled resistor, count as nonlinear, assuming it stays in the region where the model is reasonably accurate and linear? Seems linear to me, but perhaps I'm missing something there too.) Ah! Okay. Thank you. Hm, I have some very old (steel case with, I think, brown speckle finish, all-valve construction, land-anchor weight) HP electronics. I should check model numbers; I might even have a 200A. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Any amplifierr with AGC, n matter how it's designed, is non-linear.

That would be fun.

Hm, I have some very old (steel case with, I think, brown speckle finish, all-valve construction, land-anchor weight) HP electronics. I should check model numbers; I might even have a 200A.

I was using 'linear' in its mathemtical sense. A linear sysnmte is one such that if input A gives oputput B, then input kA (k a constant multiplier) gives output kB (same k). And if input C gives outptu D, then input A+C must give output B+D. It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not linear. If we increase the input signal (multiply it by a suffiicenlty large 'k'), the gain drops, so the output is less that you might expect. Oh dear, oh dear... We need to think back to the early 1930s. The problem was to produce an adjustable audio oscilaltor. LC oscillators were impractical because the L and C needed were large, and it's difficult to make a 1uF variable capacitor (say). And the indcutoir is likle to be iron-cored, which is likely to be non-linear. The normal way it was done at the time was to have 2 RF oscillators (such thigns couple be made adjustable fairly easily) -- one fied, the other variable. The outputs were mixed and the differnvee frequency extrcted. That was the audio output. One big problem was that if the 2 oscilators were at similar frequencies (to get a low freqeuncy otuput), they had a habit ot interfering with each other. THis either led to them jumping into lcok (so the output frequency became 0), or at least producing a very distorted differnce signal. The solution was to make an RC oscilaltor. Large adjustable resisotrs are perfectly possible, and can be used in such a cirucit with fixed capacitors. Fred Terman was a professor of electrical engineerign at Stanford (IIRC). He had a research student working on this, and said student made an RC oscilaltor using a Wein bridge network as the frequency-dependant part, the gai nwas stailbied by having a small filamanet bulb as one of the gian-control resistors in the amplifier. It worked well, in fact it backame a commercial product. The name of this student was William Hewlett. The product was the model 200A audio oscillator. -tony

In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, at least if you're talking about the things I suspect you are. Occasionally a brand name gets used to refer to them.

hello thanks for your precisions,I am also doing the same a few ideas:for the dc inverter what not use icl7660 ,they can give you -12v, you can get free samples from Maxim,just register on their site,I frequently use those circuits for gaasfet lnas (I am a ham also)

for odt the problem is that those processors do not have odt in microcrode (contrary of dec's processors),so we will have to make our own program,I think of using the console of the 11/34 that is here: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/ you will find the source,it can be modified to fill the need of the russian processors ,that need the psw at adress of start+2,and recompiled. but a problem is if we use dec 's program we must comply to dec's standards that reques that the processor has a dl11 (or dlv11)compatible board. as console,not only a uart.

Is the soviet serie there are circuits that make this they are the KR1801VM1-35 and the KR1801VM1-65 you can find examples of its use here: http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/DVK/docs/ file MicroEVM_Book_2.djvu can you say me where you found the file that you use for your eproms?what computer does it come from:bk,dvk,uknc??

and where are you,maybe we are not too far?? best regards good luck alain nierveze

nierveze wrote: Ok, have som 7660 already, but I have to investigate first if they can give the required current. http://katalogy.ic.cz/MHB1012.html means that I need 14mA for one IC, want to use 2 of them. Yes know. I (we?) have to build the entire register structure of the DL11. There is the DEC DC319 (and an russian equivalent) what should do most of that already, but currently I have no source for that parts. Don't know where I found it, but this rom resides on the DBK-2 board. (MC1201.02). [..] Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741