12 Nov
2010
12 Nov
'10
8:09 a.m.
I saw this article about a Christie's auction and found it "funny" in a
way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings.
http://mashable.com/2010/11/12/apple-1-auction/
12 Nov
12 Nov
8:29 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Johnston" <marvin at west.net>
To: "ClassicCmp" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 11:09 AM
Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?
I saw this article about a Christie's auction and
found it "funny" in a
way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings.
http://mashable.com/2010/11/12/apple-1-auction/
There is no single computer item (or groups of computer stuff) I would ever
want to spend $200,000 for. Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K
into my collection over the last 10 years.
The only thing good about multi millionaires dumping obscene money into
collectables is the money gets back into the economy, and eventually the
item gets put into a museum for others to see (mostly because the collector
doesn't want somebody else to own it after they croak).
1:34 p.m.
In article <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931 at dell8300>,
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K
into my collection over the last 10 years.
Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping
fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
1:47 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com>
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?
In article <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931 at dell8300>,
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
Sure if you collect large machines and have them shipped cross country. Most
of the heavy items I have are local pickups, or I would not have bothered.
There are not that many things I would shell out $100+ just for shipping.
I try not to spend more then $100 a month, sometimes I go over if I find a
great deal I can't pass up. Some months there just isn't that much out
there. The bulk of my ebay purchases are things like software, cards,
cables, cpu upgrades etc so shipping is not that bad.
Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K
into my collection over the last 10 years.
Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping
fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
2:23 p.m.
In article <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B at dell8300>,
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
I try not to spend more then $100 a month [...]
That's still $1200/yr or $12,000 for 10 years. More than half way
from your $20K over 10 years.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
2:38 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com>
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?
In article <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B at dell8300>,
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
Yes it is, I collect too much stuff.
I try not to spend more then $100 a month [...]
That's still $1200/yr or $12,000 for 10 years. More than half way
from your $20K over 10 years.
-- 
2:24 p.m.
Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K
into my collection over the last 10 years.
Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping
fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
of the heavy items I have are local pickups, or I
would not have bothered.
There are not that many things I would shell out $100+ just for shipping.
Unfortunately there have been many things that I've had to pay rather
more than that to have shipped. Having a few PCBs shipped across from
the States can easily cost $50 [1], a complete unit will often cost
getting on for $100. I have, alas, not bid on things because I can't
afford the shipping, though.
[1] I am being reasonable about this. The postage charge alone can be
getting on for that figure, and I don't object to paying a sensible
amount for packing materials and the seller's time.
For example, I bouth an electronic test/measurement isntrument recently on
E-bay. The seller chaarged $110 or thereabouts for shipping. Since the
postable lebel said $97.xx, and it came properly packed, I regard that as
entirely reasonable. But the sellers who tell me it will cost $150 to
have a fairly thin service manual posted to me are not being reasonable.
I try not to spend more then $100 a month, sometimes I go over if I find a
great deal I can't pass up. Some months there just isn't that much out
there. The bulk of my ebay purchases are things like software, cards,
cables, cpu upgrades etc so shipping is not that bad.
It gets worsw when you buy from another continent :-). The provlem is
that parts for the mcahines I am interested in don't seem to exist in
Europe...
-tony
8:30 a.m.
Marvin Johnston wrote:
I saw this article about a Christie's auction and
found it "funny" in a
way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings.
I might go as far as $20. :-) I like machines to be interesting, but don't
care so much about what they were used for or their place in history[1] - and
if I wanted to mess around with hardware of the A1's spec, there are surely
far cheaper ways of doing it.
[1] yeah, it's always nice if they have a "story", but it's not high on
my
list of requirements.
($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm not sure what the chances are
of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. Most of
the "barn finds" are likely long-gone)
cheers
Jules
8:36 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jules Richardson" <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?
($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm
not sure what the chances
are of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days.
Most of the "barn finds" are likely long-gone)
cheers
Jules
The only reason you will not find too many 1970's single board computers in
the future is because people donate old paintings and such to goodwill, but
they scrap old electronics to keep the environment clean. You will hear
about people finding Picassos at garage sales and thrift stores forever.
Unless their parents hung up the painting with a pricetag their kids will
think it is ugly and get rid of it. If you have ever watched Pawn Stars on
TV you would know how many things get taken straight to the pawn shop after
somebody dies and the attic gets cleaned out, and they are shocked to find
that it is actually worth something or has some history to it.
8:40 a.m.
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jules Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm
not sure what the chances are
of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. Most of
the "barn finds" are likely long-gone)
The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c.
1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago.
It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-)
-ethan
9:03 a.m.
One just sold on ebay for approx $20K, not sure why someone would pay
10X that for one with a signed note from Steve Jobs...
9:48 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:41 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jules Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm still irked with myself for disposing of an Intercept Jr. (with the battery-backed
memory expansion) back in the mid-1990s. I hadn't done anything with it since the
mid-80s, we were moving, my Spousal Unit was 'helping' me pack.... <sigh>
For my (our) purposes, I am definitely interested in the story of a machine. It is often
quite helpful in helping others understand the significance of a particular device
("what would they have ever done with this old thing?"). For instance, our
PDP-7 came from the University of Oregon where it ran experiments in their high energy
physics lab; over thirty Ph.Ds were earned with research done on that machine.
To answer the original question: not likely. :-) But show me an IBM 360 and there's
no telling *what* I'd do.... -- Ian
($20's probably rather optimistic though -
I'm not sure what the
chances are
of finding a 1970's single-board machine for
that amount these days.
Most of
the "barn finds" are likely long-gone)
The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c.
1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago.
It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-)
11:14 a.m.
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:
I'm still irked with myself for disposing of an
Intercept Jr. (with the battery-backed memory expansion) back in the mid-1990s. ?I
hadn't done anything with it since the mid-80s, we were moving, my Spousal Unit was
'helping' me pack.... ?<sigh>
Ooh.
For my (our) purposes, I am definitely interested in
the story of a machine. ?It is often quite helpful in helping others understand the
significance of a particular device ("what would they have ever done with this old
thing?"). ?For instance, our PDP-7 came from the University of Oregon where it ran
experiments in their high energy physics lab; over thirty Ph.Ds were earned with research
done on that machine.
For that exact reason, I wish we'd saved some gear from the AMANDA
experiment (the Linux-based data collection machines were installed
starting in 1998 and decommed a couple of years ago). You could go
through the author list on various papers to see how many PhDs that
gear facilitated.
Tangentally, I have a couple of Intel-chip EISA boxes that are
probably only interesting because they were used as transitional
servers in the history of CompuServe (long chrome-plated steel
enclosures that sat two-side-by-side in a 24" rack, nicknamed "silver
bullets") - they were called "32-bit hosts" to distinguish them from
the 36-bit DEC and Systems Concepts machines that were in overlapping
service at the time. I would loved to have saved any of the 36-bit
gear, but circumstances presented me with some 32-bit gear (decommed
around 2002), so that's what I have (plus one "trinode" enclosure with
three DDV11D backplanes, originally housing a ton of serial gear for
the node-to-node network). I don't know if machines of this sort are
interesting to most people, but since my involvement with CIS went
from a 16-year-old modem user to employee, their
stories intertwine
with my own.
-ethan
10:43 a.m.
On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote:
The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80
Starter Kit (c.
1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago.
It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-)
It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. The number of various
eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing.
So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited
capabilities.
Or am I not thinking as a collector would?
--Chuck
11:04 a.m.
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I completely agree. I've got many - three 1802s (Elf2K, Embedded
Elf...), three 6502s (Replica-1, MicroKim...), at least one Z-80 (old
P112 kit), etc., and that doesn't count AVR-based products like clocks
and Arduino boards and Makerbot electronics.
They are all interesting and pretty much each one is cheaper than the
kits from the 1970s in the 1970s, but so far, few come in under $50,
and none come in at $10-$20, unlike an "obsolete" computer at the
bottom of its curve.
The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80
Starter Kit (c.
1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago.
It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ?;-)
It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. ?The number of various
eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing. So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one
with limited
capabilities.
For me, in some cases, nostalgia (the ones I saw advertised but
couldn't afford as a kid, like the Super Elf or the Elf-II), in other
cases the aesthetics of 1970s layout and design (hand-taped, curved
traces). I can run PDP-8 software via emulation (simh), on a 40-pin
microprocessor (IM6120 in my SBC6120) or on "real iron", but I'm still
fascinated to do so on a TTL-era (-8/i or -8/L) or transistorized (-8
or -8/S) machine.
Or am I not thinking as a collector would?
Dunno about that, but I picked up the Starter Kit because it was
interesting (the most striking feature at first inspection was the
pair of S-100 slots at the top of the board) not because I expected it
to increase in collector value. I've done more research (reading the
docs) than experimentation (pushing buttons), but I've still learned
something and it's still been entertaining.
ethan
11:23 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote:
It depends whether you want one to do Real Work, or just to mess around with,
I think. On the messing around side of things, I don't really mind whether
it's old or new - but I do find an attraction to boards which have separate
visible components for different areas of functionality (ROM, RAM, CPU, I/O
etc.) just because they feel more like my idea of what a computer should look
like, somehow :-)
cheers
Jules
The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80
Starter Kit (c.
1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago.
It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-)
It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. The number of various
eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing.
So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited
capabilities.
Or am I not thinking as a collector would?
1:50 p.m.
On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I think i've mentioned this before, but you can still buy a new
single-board computer kit with a hex keypad and switch/light panel.
It's sold by Elenco (http://www.elenco.com/), and you can downlaod the
manual from their web site. From what I remember, it's an 8085 CPU + 8155
RAM/IO and 2816 E2PROM. Yes, you have to solder it together. You get to
toggle the monitor program into the E2PROM from the switches, at which
point you can use the hex keypad and display linked up to the 8155.
It's not that expensive (I think I've seen it on other web sites for
around $100).
The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80
Starter Kit (c.
1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago.
It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-)
It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. The number of various
eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing.
So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited
capabilities.
Thake that to extremes, and you start thinking 'A modern PC can do
everything this old <foo> can do and more, so why bother with classic
computers at all' :-). Although actually in my case that's not true. The
classic cna do one thing that no modern PC can do. It can keep me
entertained for hours while I bring it back to life.
So I guess that if somebody gave me an Apple 1, I'd get it going. I'd
investigatge it. I might evne try to use it for something. But sure as
anything, I'd not keep it pristine as an investment.
Or am I not thinking as a collector would?
I know I am not a collector.
-tony
3:52 p.m.
On 12 Nov 2010 at 21:50, Tony Duell wrote:
It's sold by Elenco (http://www.elenco.com/), and
you can downlaod the
manual from their web site. From what I remember, it's an 8085 CPU +
8155 RAM/IO and 2816 E2PROM. Yes, you have to solder it together. You
get to toggle the monitor program into the E2PROM from the switches,
at which point you can use the hex keypad and display linked up to the
8155.
There are also Z80 trainers with the keypad and display and
reasonable external interfaces. One in particular, comes in a nice
wood case. I suspect it's probably made in the Far East, but a
couple of vendors in the US sell it, Global Specialites and
Unisource:
http://bit.ly/cp77Hx
About USD$500 with software.
ETT Thailand offers not only Z80 boards, but Z180 ones.
And there's always Rabbit, but I like my Z80s with complete
instruction sets.
--Chuck
4:58 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Aren't they supposed to bury it in a hole or something? Or is that too
environmentally-unfriendly these days?
So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old
one with limited
capabilities.
Won't Apple give you a trade-in discount towards a new one, and then do
the crushing for you? 
5:05 p.m.
So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one
with limited
capabilities.
Won't Apple give you a trade-in discount towards a new one, and then do
the crushing for you?
1:42 p.m.
Marvin Johnston wrote:
I am with you on this. As I mentioned a few weeks back, I see nothing
special in a stock <foo> just because it was used for some famous purpose
or by some famous person.
I find beauty in well-desinged and interesting hardware. There are many
machines I would find much more interesting than an Apple 1. In fact it's
hard to think of many machines I'd find less interesting...
I saw this article about a Christie's auction
and found it "funny" in a
way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings.
I might go as far as $20. :-) I like machines to be interesting, but don't
care so much about what they were used for or their place in history[1] - and
if I wanted to mess around with hardware of the A1's spec, there are surely
far cheaper ways of doing it. ($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm
not sure what the chances are
of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. Most of
the "barn finds" are likely long-gone)
Alas yes. Fortunately I've got enough machines to keep me occupied for a
goodfew years, beacuase at current prices there's no way I'll be adding
to the collection.
-tony
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
marvin＠west.net -
nick.allen＠comcast.net -
teoz＠neo.rr.com