On 03/07/12 11:16 PM, dwight elvey wrote: Inventors aren't great "inventors" either. You eventually need somebody to turn an invention into a product (some nerds forget this part). Ask Microsoft how well their 'inventors' are capturing the smart phone market. They have thousands of /them/. But no leader. Inventions that were never properly packaged and marketed are legion: Every failed business has a few. Steve Jobs was a visionary in product design, management and marketing. Nobody else had the vision that could save that company. (Anyone who remembers Apple from 1990-2011 can vouch for this.) That said, as a Mac user for 26 years, I completely denounce the ethics of Apple: their disdain for the open source community that they have depended upon, and their lack of responsibility in improving worker conditions and environmental responsibility throughout their supply chain. Maximising profit does not justify any of this. --Toby

On 07/04/2012 02:09 AM, John Many Jars wrote: I absolutely agree with you, don't get me wrong. I moved away from MacOS X for a reason. But I have to ask...how do you think this will do damage to the open source community? In my view (which may be flawed, which is why I'm asking), by its very nature that community is completely impervious to that sort of buffoonery. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 07/04/2012 02:38 AM, Mouse wrote: Sure, but...does anyone actually believe that this will actually come to pass? I mean, heck, there are hobbyist-designed computers almost literally FLYING off the shelves these days, witness the Raspberry Pi and its ilk. Apple's continued good luck with iPad sales won't put a dent in the popularity of stuff like that (any more than it could put a dent in, say, sales of boxes of nails) and it certainly won't stop people from designing new ones. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

http://youtu.be/kgQkpDlBwnM --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br

On 7/4/2012 12:24 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: I think the makers of minicomputers thought this as well, from DEC down to Computer Automation, and the whole lot of them. Once the business model for the device shifts away I don't see a half a cup there, I see disaster. I don't think there is a way to see a shift that leaves an opening for something when things start to shift away from it. The people that you hire in 5 years won't have a clue about what to do w/o hand jestures talking to their pads, listening to them, an so forth. The supply of desktops may stay there, but I suspect the model that will survive is the thin client, not the reasonable Linux ready desktop. And there is already a huge fuss about the hardware protection key to even get the damn things to boot. I don't have a good vision of what is there. I have been thru too many paradigm shifts since they took away my keypunch, 2741, and 1403 printer to think this is good news. Seriously I was worried as the laptops started to sell well that there would be little incentive to grow the computing platform for the desktop. The whole Ipad thing has turned the IT type busniess model sideways in that it is so cheap to get on board with a "pad" now. It can't help but change the way things are done. My suggested way of thin clients and servers may not be it, but I suspect it won't be too far Note that there are already a number of game companies running central servers complete with modified graphics cards and streaming out to pads, as well as the fact that an Ipad or android can run a thin client just fine. Jim

incidentally isn't this thread title awfully disrespectful

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Benson" <md.benson at gmail.comTo: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.orgSent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 2:47 AM Subject: Re: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... Maybe they'll just move on. A lot of people are already touting them as having designs on the TV and entertainment market. Give it time and there will be porn on itunes.

On 4 Jul 2012, at 9:46 , John Many Jars wrote: You can always opt to target the Jailbreak market. Apple don't seem to care a whole lot about jailbreaking, except for explicitly not providing support. The key issue here is whether "alternative" computing will be actively shut out or not. The danger lies in extending the "walled garden" approach to the world at large, eg. denying open systems access to the internet. I find issues like net neutrality, for this reason and others, far mor eimportant than manufacturers offering closed systems. .tsooJ

I don't believe it will come to pass. But I don't believe it won't either. I _fear_ it will. I find that scenario scarily plausible. Not in the near future, as you point out. Probably not in my lifetime. But, in a century or two of devolution into dystopia, I have no trouble imagining a world rather like the Corporate State crossed with 1984, in which the construction or possession of an unapproved computing device is cause for re-education, or in extreme cases destruction. I see acceptance of things like the iPad and the paradigms it brings as the thin edge of the wedge that would make such a future possible. I've seen it happen in related fields - look at how hard it is to find a fully-documented computer these days, because everyone made individually short-term reasonable decisions to not care until only the lunatic fringe (eg, us) still cares, and as a result they're hell to find, and I expect will soon (probably within my lifetime) be not just difficult and expensive but impossible. A good illustration of my point, in a slightly different form: you have become so accustomed to undocumented hardware that you are actually citing a computer built around hardware whose documentation requires an NDA as a paragon of openness! That is a staggering attitude shift, and the goalpost-moving it implies forms a part of the creep I sketched above. Removing freedoms is most effectively done a tiny step at a time, individually too small to be noticed - like boiling a frog. Nobody seems to have noticed how much the tiny creeping steps have added up to already, and I see no reason to think they will stop before the frog is fully cooked. I really really hope I'm being excessively conspiracy-theorist here. But I'm having trouble convincing myself I am. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Just try to find an Android device that doesn't have undocumented hardware requiring binary blob drivers. Control has to be applied from the bottom up to be effective, after all; the first step is to get it in place at the low levels. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: I agree. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must have never heard of NEXT computer. Hell even the original Mac was a piece of unusable expensive junk that needed to be sorted out after Jobs was fired. How can somebody who screwed up the Apple III because of overheating demand the original Mac not have a cooling fan? It took designers to come up with the expandable Mac to get Apple going again after Jobs left. Jobs hated internal expansion with a passion and when he came back we got those funky colored Imacs that liked to self destruct from overheating after a few years (a common theme is seems). The end result of Jobs coming back is the death of Apple Computer and the start of Apple the toy store. Go ask Sony what happenes when a brand isn't cool anymore.

On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Toby Thain wrote: I hung out in the wrong circles! I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. I played with a pre-release NeXT; I never touched one after that. I never touched an Apple///, although I gave my nephew a ][+ with a /// monitor on it. Based on those two machines, it was obvious that Jobs wanted closed systems. Q: was he color-blind? (but otherwise good visual acuity) It seemed as though he was not very enthusiastic about adding color to the screen! Hey! I wonder if Apple was first to have a personal computer available in case color "Raspberry"? If THAT is one of the requirements for "first personal computer", . . . What were the color names for the iMac? (the ADM3a look-alike)

-----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain Sent: July-05-12 7:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... On 04/07/12 9:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: According to Mr. Wozniak in iWoz, he had to fight Jobs off from only having 2 (if I recall right) expansion slots in the Apple ][. One for the disk drive, and another for another common card (printer I would guess). That book pretty fixed me on Jobs. I knew he was a tyrant, but ripping off your best (and probably only) friend over the breakout arcade game modification "bounty" from Atari with an artificial deadline (so Jobs could go on a trip the next week, probably with the cash from Atari). The whole Apple ][ vs Mac split in Apple was cute too. Especially considering Apple ][ was paying for everything.

On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put thumbprints on the media)). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On 05/07/12 3:06 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: Jecel, Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. --Toby

On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: Steve Jobs! He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for introducing the next iteration of existing products. He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand loyalty. iPod iPhone iPad were all versions of existing products that had not previously been very successful in the market.

On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Raymond Wiker wrote: Nevertheless, going back to Dwight's original question, no matter how "awesome" they are, NONE of them were "inventions".

On 07/04/2012 10:39 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: Versions, yes...but they're pretty damn nice devices, when you come right down to it. There's much more than just marketing going on there. I am by no means an Apple fanboi either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: Have you actually looked at what it takes to make a modern Mac vs a PC? I can tell you that they *are* technical marvels from a number of different perspectives?manufacturing, industrial design, thermal management, etc. TTFN - Guy

On Jul 4, 2012, at 7:25 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: Oh, not *that* argument again. *sigh*. Actually try and price an *identically* configured PC & Mac and I think you'll find that the price difference isn't so much (in quite a few cases the Mac is cheaper). Yes, there are cheap PCs. And they are little more than repackaged Intel reference designs (and they pretty much suck). Then look at the MacBook Air (which turns out to be the *least* expensive of the Mac portables). The PC manufactures can't even match Apple's price. It's so bad that the "ultra book" designation that Intel is pushing (Apple invented the category with the original MacBook Air BTW) can't be built to be price competitive with Apple unless Intel subsidizes the price. Apple designs its systems to be: 1) thin [the tolerance of components in the Z dimension is measured in microns] & not using "off the shelf" components such as LCD assemblies but rather using the case as the structure for the LCD 2) light weight [removal of plastics and using CNC milled structural aluminum which removes the need for separate structural components] 3) low acoustics (i.e. quiet) [asymmetric fan blade design & closed loop thermal management] 4) long battery life [lithium polymer batteries that are form fitted to the enclosure, which also aids 1 & 2 which allows higher battery capacity per volume and weight] There was a "race to the bottom" that most PC manufacturers fell into. Look at their profits. Then look at Apple's. The last numbers that I saw (externally available, I'd have to look it up) was that HP's profit (on average) is $50 per PC it sells. Apple's profit (on average) is $350 per Mac it sells. At profits that low, HP can't even take a service call on a system without blowing the profit on the system. Wonder why service from the various PC manufacturers is so bad? You get what you pay for. Ever wonder why that cheap PC has so much crapware on it? It's because the manufacture gets *paid* to put all of that on the PC. That's the only way that they're actually making any money at all. Because of Apple's profits, it has the ability to really engineer the Mac vs what most PC manufactures do (which is take an Intel reference design and repackage) and it shows. TTFN - Guy

On 5 Jul 2012, at 14:19, Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> wrote: I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that VAIO though... Pure and simple thing that sold me on the Air is the build quality and little details in the way it's put together. It feels like it'll last. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson

On 5 July 2012 15:25, Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: Strongly agree there. I have seen a lot of dead Vaio laptops - and Dells and HPs and so on - but very few dead Thinkpads. They are tough and they last. But, they cost... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

On 5 Jul 2012, at 15:30, Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: I've heard similar stories. Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. Sad, the (2007) R61i that got returned to me with a dead battery went through 3 years of hell with a teenager and came out fighting, has a missing key and the awfully slow hard drive got slung in favour if an SSD but aside from that it's a champ. It even rubs Windows 8 pretty well! -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson

Careful, it might go off. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of DeForest Kelley -----------------------------------------------

On 07/05/2012 11:26 AM, David Riley wrote: I have a new Lenovo laptop. I've been accustomed to Apple build quality for about ten years, so I bought it with much trepidation, but after talking to a lot of people about it. I was able to fondle one quite a bit before I bought a new one, so I had a feel for it beforehand. Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 07/05/2012 06:09 PM, David Griffith wrote: Mine is a V570. Core i5 (dual core) at 2.5GHz, 6GB of RAM stock. Running Linux, it positively screams, even when doing big compiles. I'm accustomed to hitting both buttons simultaneously so I don't much mind that. The V570 doesn't have a middle button. I agree that it'd be better with the additional button though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 07/06/2012 01:05 AM, David Griffith wrote: Because I needed a machine quickly due to a weird situation, it was there in the store, and I was able to get an employee discount on it. It's perhaps the only time I've ever purchased computer hardware retail, except for the Apple Store, which really doesn't count. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

I can tell you some, I worked repairing laptops and I can tell you lots of problems, design errors and like. In VAIO computers :oP Mine seems to be THE one in the transition IBM -> Lenovo (T60). I just love it, I maxed it out (and now looking for a core2 duo to put on it), I see no notebook I can buy that is better than it. At least with 4:3 screen :oP The R61 is great! And don't worry with Windows 8, eventually it will rub it out.

On 5 July 2012 16:28, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote: Beware of confusing your personal preferences for general objective facts. I am on my 3rd Thinkpad now. I find the Trackpoint perfectly usable and more pleasant than a cheap trackpad. Of course, you are free not to like it, but that does not mean that they are bad or there is anything wrong with them; it's just your opinion. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

I have the opposite problem with trackpads. I'm spastic and usually apply too much pressure on the darn thing. In windows, the result is picking up and moving things, unintended double clicks and other nonsense. I have mice attached to everything, including my Linux laptop box. You can abuse a mouse and it does no harm, Usually. I don't use the pads very often, so I'm not motivated to fix the default behaviors. On 7/5/12, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:

On 04/07/12 10:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: That was equally true in 1984. But I guess you had to be there. --Toby