23 Oct
2012
23 Oct
'12
2:04 a.m.
I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old
pre-internet Online services
both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later?
---
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23 Oct
23 Oct
2:28 a.m.
On 23 October 2012 07:04, Tom Sparks <tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
I am wondering if there is software that can allow me
run/experience these old pre-internet Online services
both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later?
For videotex (aka videotext/viewdata), my website -
www.viewdata.org.uk - has a lot of (UK biased) information on it,
including some "webified" versions of what little data I've been able
to find. (I have a pile of documentation on Viatel, the Australian
service, but not got that online yet.) I do have my old 1980s BBS
still complete and working, but unfortunately due to builders having
been in, it's all boxed up at the moment ... http://www.ccl4.org/
might still be online, but you need Java enabled to access it which
I've not got so can't check.
Software wise, you can try finding a copy of CommunITel, and run it on
BeebEm, if you don't have an actual BBC Micro - this is what was used
in schools to teach kids how to set up and run local systems so it's
pretty straightforward. (I've got several copies, but see previous
note re boxes..)
If anybody ever finds a copy of the original server-side software
developed by the GPO/BT that Prestel itself, Viatel, Bildschirmtext or
anyone else they sold it to ran on, please please let me know.
Rob
8:15 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks <tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
I am wondering if there is software that can allow me
run/experience these old pre-internet Online services
both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later?
For Commodore fans, there is Q-Link Reloaded, an early-stage
recreation of the back end of the QuantumLink online service. It can
be accessed with a modified Q-Link client disk and either a real
Commodore computer (with serial link) or with an emulator. This page
has information but I suspect it may be out-of-date. I will try to
dig up better info (or visit the #c64friends IRC channel where some of
the devs hang out)
http://orrtech.us/qlink/index.html
--
jht
26 Oct
26 Oct
10:33 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old
pre-internet Online services
> both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later?
Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler.
Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell
Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on
a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in
color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French
had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived
from that era. I didn't even think about it back
then.
Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
Fran?ois
--
solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com
11:27 a.m.
On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, Francois Dion wrote:
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jason T <silent700
at gmail.com> wrote:
I did some work (as a sysop) with a BBS program that utilized NAPLPS. It
was a very neat system. I can't recall the name of it at the moment
however. This was maybe 1990 or '91.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
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Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old
pre-internet Online services
> both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later?
Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler.
Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell
Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on
a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in
color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French
had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived
from that era. I didn't even think about it back then.
Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
12:23 p.m.
On 10/26/2012 8:33 AM, Francois Dion wrote:
Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
Out here in Western Canada, They came and went.
Most of what I remember from back then, the terminals
all seemed to use a 8088 and were slow.
TV Video out and split baud rate, 1200 baud in, 300 baud
out.
Fran?ois
--
solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com
Ben.
2:42 p.m.
On 2012 Oct 26, at 7:33 AM, Francois Dion wrote:
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jason T <silent700
at gmail.com> wrote:
I remember when it was the latest thing and the terminals were
appearing but I never dealt with the protocol myself.
The radio museum here (Vancouver, Canada) has a color videotex
terminal (with integrated CRT) made by Microtel.
It's missing the keyboard but should be able to function as a
videotex display device, something I'd like to work on doing
sometime. It's in danger of being thrown though and needs to find a
desiring home.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/
> experience these old pre-internet Online services
> both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them
> until later?
Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler.
Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell
Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on
a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in
color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French
had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived
from that era. I didn't even think about it back then.
Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) 
5:37 p.m.
New subject: NAPLPS (was: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs)
In article <CAOLi1KAuKbiy7rz6zyf3X70AC=HUHBjQuew4F-VBX=Yw+sF0Rw at mail.gmail.com>,
Francois Dion <francois.dion at gmail.com> writes:
Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS
compiler/decompiler.
Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell
Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on
a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in
color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French
had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived
from that era. I didn't even think about it back then.
Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I
never heard of anyone that actually implemented it. The BBS dudes
went with the ANSI escape codes supported by the IBM PC and clones and
other terminal manufacturers already had their own standards like
ReGIS from DEC and Tektronix 4010/4014 graphics sequences. Only a
couple people ever supported the ReGIS coding sequence besides DEC,
IIRC. By the time it was feasible to make a cheap graphics terminal,
it was also feasible to make a cheap PC with graphics and suitable
client software that talked any protocol you wanted.
Instead of encoding cool looking screens in protocols like NAPLPS,
people just had client software downloading GIF images that served as
the screen backgrounds. Graphics terminals are something I've been
studying over the past few years. People either went with emulating
someone else's popular escape codes (like Tektronix 4010/4014, still
embedded in xterm today), or had their own unique escape codes that
people used to support their specific terminal. Tektronix raster
graphics terminals use a completely different kind of command sequence
mechanism from the earlier storage tube designs.
If you really wanted portability between graphics terminals from
different manufacturers, you used a piece of middleware to make those
terminals conform to a single interface. The middleware was generally
an incarnation of one of the graphics standards originally promulgated
by SIGGRAPH, such as CORE, GKS or PHIGS. There were also libraries
provided by manufacturers that provided a uniform API for different
products, such as Tektronix PLOT10 and PLOT50.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
7:39 p.m.
New subject: NAPLPS
On 10/26/2012 02:37 PM, Richard wrote:
I did some terminal firmware for a customer in the early (pre-PC) 80s.
I had to refresh my memory, so I dug into my musty-smelling files and
turned up two documents that I worked from. The first is titled
"PRESENTATION LEVEL PROTOCOL VIDEOTEX STANDARD", dated May, 1981 from
Ma Bell. Unfortunately, that standard doesn't discuss multiple
character sets, so attached to it was a section from another standard
titled "Teletex Zeichenvorrat und Kodierung (basierend auf CCITT
Empfehlung S. 61)" that covers character formation (among other things)
Francois Dion <francois.dion at gmail.com>
writes:
Anybody else
dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I
never heard of anyone that actually implemented it. The BBS dudes
went with the ANSI escape codes supported by the IBM PC and clones and
other terminal manufacturers already had their own standards like
ReGIS from DEC and Tektronix 4010/4014 graphics sequences. Only a
couple people ever supported the ReGIS coding sequence besides DEC,
IIRC. By the time it was feasible to make a cheap graphics terminal,
it was also feasible to make a cheap PC with graphics and suitable
client software that talked any protocol you wanted. from multibyte codes.
Does that count as dabbling? I think I still have the engineering
prototype PCB for the terminal wandering around... It feeds an OEM CRT
monitor kit and takes a (now missing) serial keyboard.
--Chuck
27 Oct
27 Oct
8:47 a.m.
New subject: NAPLPS
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 10/26/2012 02:37 PM, Richard wrote:
Very cool. Wish I had kept all this stuff. It would be cool if you
could scan this.
Francois Dion <francois.dion at
gmail.com> writes:
I did some terminal firmware for a customer in the early (pre-PC) 80s. I had
to refresh my memory, so I dug into my musty-smelling files and turned up
two documents that I worked from. The first is titled "PRESENTATION LEVEL
PROTOCOL VIDEOTEX STANDARD", dated May, 1981 from Ma Bell. Unfortunately,
that standard doesn't discuss multiple character sets, so attached to it was
a section from another standard titled "Teletex Zeichenvorrat und Kodierung
(basierend auf CCITT Empfehlung S. 61)" that covers character formation
(among other things) from multibyte codes. Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I
never heard of anyone that actually implemented it.. Does that count as dabbling? I think I still have the
engineering prototype
PCB for the terminal wandering around... It feeds an OEM CRT monitor kit
and takes a (now missing) serial keyboard.
Even cooler. If you do find it, you should take pictures. Can you
divulge the brand / customer?
Fran?ois
--
solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com
9:53 a.m.
New subject: NAPLPS
On 27 October 2012 13:47, Francois Dion <francois.dion at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Seconded - I would like to see that too.
Rob
I did some terminal firmware for a customer in the early (pre-PC) 80s. I had
to refresh my memory, so I dug into my musty-smelling files and turned up
two documents that I worked from. The first is titled "PRESENTATION LEVEL
PROTOCOL VIDEOTEX STANDARD", dated May, 1981 from Ma Bell. Unfortunately,
that standard doesn't discuss multiple character sets, so attached to it was
a section from another standard titled "Teletex Zeichenvorrat und Kodierung
(basierend auf CCITT Empfehlung S. 61)" that covers character formation
(among other things) from multibyte codes.
Very cool. Wish I had kept all this stuff. It would be cool if you
could scan this.
12:37 p.m.
New subject: NAPLPS
On 10/27/2012 05:47 AM, Francois Dion wrote:
Even cooler. If you do find it, you should take
pictures. Can you
divulge the brand / customer?
Fortune Systems. Their monochrome terminal. It's nothing to look
at--I don't even think the production model had the same form. I do
still have the source for the firmware.
--Chuck
1:26 p.m.
New subject: NAPLPS
On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Francois Dion wrote:
Francois, here's the BBS program I was referring to:
http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/IBM/DOS/TURBOARD/
There is a NAPLPS terminal included.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
8:11 a.m.
New subject: NAPLPS (was: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs)
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
In article
<CAOLi1KAuKbiy7rz6zyf3X70AC=HUHBjQuew4F-VBX=Yw+sF0Rw at mail.gmail.com>,
Francois Dion <francois.dion at gmail.com> writes:
In Montreal, BBS operators used it too. Bell implemented it with ALEX
of course, but they had tried to deploy it before in early 80s. It was
also the end result of all the efforts that went into Telidon (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telidon ).
Thanks for the reference to Byte,I went digging, and the only Byte
magazine I have that talks about NAPLPS is that of May 1983. It is
Part 4 of 4 of a series on NAPLPS. Anybody has Byte feb, march or
april 1983? I'd be interested in getting these articles.
Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110)
I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I
never heard of anyone that actually implemented it. The BBS dudes
went with the ANSI escape codes supported by the IBM PC and clones and
other terminal manufacturers already had their own standards like
ReGIS from DEC and Tektronix 4010/4014 graphics sequences.
BBS operators figured out quickly that there were a bunch of Alextel
around and started adding support for NAPLPS (through doors for
example). Some had pretty advanced setups. One I knew personally had
80386 machines with transputer boards and a version of Quarterdeck
(the same guys that did QEMM) Deskview specially modified for him to
leverage the transputers. He had a ton of lines and a lot of alextel
subscribers used his service (mostly the chat room).
Then there was Prodigy who used NAPLPS.
BTW, NAPLPS was more akin to SVG than GIF. It was not designed to
render raster graphics (although you could hack it to do it, but
painfully slow). I had written a little vector graphic program to
design some of the more complex drawings (but the bulk I did by hand
coding using my compiler). It paid my bills through school.
Stroll down memory lane... I think I'll try to implement something
using the Pocket Mini Computer as a "terminal". It'll be a faster
since I can talk to it at 38400 (well, up to 115K in theory, but
buffers in Propeller Basic are too small). Back then 2400 bps was the
standard high speed.
Fran?ois
--
solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com
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days inactive
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13 comments
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participants (9)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
francois.dion＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
legalize＠xmission.com -
robert＠irrelevant.com -
silent700＠gmail.com -
tom_a_sparks＠yahoo.com.au