If it is, instead, a "friend" of his, then there is no resourse, since THAT would be legal.

Alas, eBay does NOT mimic a decent "real-life" auction. There are many strategies. I agree that holding off on bidding (and even using a bidding "robot") is one of the most effective, but it is not the only one. Placing an early bid can also have a dramatic impact. There are a number of items I do NOT bid on because I see another specific person has logged a bid, and I do not want a bidding war (at this stage he can probably make better use of individual parts than I). Other times I will place a bid for 70%-90% of my "limit" early. If other people see a significant bid early on, they my not bid. All said and done it is a "Game" in the strictest mathematical sense. Personally, I wish that the auction would be more like a real world one where the auction ended (after a suitable startup delay) when not bids had been placed for a specific interval (30 minutes?). This would more accurately reflect a "real world" open auction. IMsnHO.....

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: And that's exactly how the Vintage Computer Marketplace works. "Snipe-Proof Auctions" -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: At the risk of opening up a whole argument on this (which this is sure to do) "sniping" is not an ordained right. It's not even a valid tactic outside of eBay. Sniping is an eBay institution because that's how they've designed their auction functionality. The whole construct of a time limited auction without extensions is conducive to sniping, and precisely because, as you state, not all parties are present at the finish. The way to neutralize this is for all auction participants to utilize sniping software, therefore submitting their high bid at the very last second. All other options naturally lead back to this. In the Vintage Computer Marketplace, we've decided to do away with sniping all together by extending an auction by an additional period of time if any bids come in within the last 5 minutes. This is fair for everyone (though the person who thinks he's using eBay and tries to snipe in the last seconds of the auction might not think so). It's fair for the other bidders, because they then get a chance to try to outbid the late bidder (even if that means going above their initial proxy bid amount) and it's fair for the seller because it allows the item to reach it's natural TRUE market price point. eBay does not allow this because time cuts the auction short before someone else can potentially come in and bid higher than the last second sniper. So which is better? Well, we have several regular sellers on the VCM who have made more money using the VCM, and are much happier with the VCM, than with eBay (and not just because we aren't charging any fees at the moment [which is about to change]). If you like sniping and enjoy the adrenaline rush you get when you manage to outsmart other potential bidders, then use eBay. Or, just use sniping software like StealthBid and save your adrenaline for better uses. If you like a fair marketplace suited specifically for the vintage computer hobbyist and market, use the Vintage Computer Marketplace. And I'll make a base appeal to those who still use eBay to buy/sell/trade: you have no room to complain when something on eBay pisses you off because there IS an alternative which you have chosen not to use. The VCM is not used nearly enough. Some of that we can and are working on to get more activity. We've got an advertising push coming up to take it to the next level. But everyone here can also do their part by spreading the word about the VCM and actually using it to sell or trade your stuff. We'll have incentives to make you want to do this, but in the meantime, do it for your own good! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, ben franchuk wrote: Great! The VCM has that too :) I don't understand how the VCM can help you with shipping. Yep, an 11/20: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=413 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

William Maddox sez... Well... other 11/20's look a little different :-) :-) http://www.parse.com/~museum/pdp11/index.html The 11/R20 is the first picture... Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers!

Ethan> On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 08:23:46AM -0500, Robert Krten wrote: Ethan> Ruggedized machines aside, _my_ 11/20 looks like the one Ethan> depicted at shiresoft.com... smooth panel (with incandescent Ethan> bulbs behind). Correct. The same goes for other PDP11 models; the smooth panel with lights behind the translucent material is a common feature across the series. Remember that the 11/20 came out in 1971. I'm not sure LEDs even existed that long ago, and they certainly weren't common as lamp replacements. I no longer remember when I first saw LEDs in PDP11 consoles -- perhaps the 11/70. Some vague memory says that their lights displays looked red rather than yellow, which would fit. Digging... the schematics in the pdp11 directory at www.bitsavers.org support this: the 11/45 console schematics show lamps, the 11/70 console schematics show LEDs. The 11/20 console manual (KY11 manual) also discusses lamps and shows lamps in the schematic. paul

A light-emitting diode (LED) is a semiconductor device that emits incoherent monochromatic light when electrically biased in the forward direction. This effect is a form of electroluminescence. The color depends on the semiconducting material used, and can be near-ultraviolet, visible or infrared. Nick Holonyak Jr. (1928 - ) developed the first practical visible-spectrum LED in 1962. This would probably conclude the speculations on earliest date for LEDs to appear on front panels. This has no impact on the history of DEC practise though... If anybody has more precise facts on commercial availability, please come forward and presents your facts. /Ulf Andersson etc etc, ad infinitum...

Post a picture of one somewhere so I can check, also the voltage. I looked here, but didn't find a picture of the bulb. aside... any pictures of the domed pole station from the inside looking out?? John A.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: Yes, Ebay's allowing sniping is really kind of sleazy, You think its a real auction with some idea that the visible bid prices mean something when in fact by allowing sniping its really a sealed bid auction... Sleazy Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics

For the life of me, I can't understand the complaining about "sniping". I've been to a lot of live auctions - especially for antiques - and many times the bidding is "normal": $50, $55, $65, $75 - going once, going twice - and somebody bids $300 at the last moment - everybody is caught off guard - and before one catches his/her breath, the gavel is down and the item sold. It's all part of the game. And if a person takes auctions too seriously, then they will not find them fun. BTW: I've done the above myself - it's kind of exhilarating - although it can be expensive... Sometimes on eBay (or other auctions) I will put in a low bid on an item - because I just "kinda" want it - and am not interested in bidding it up. "Snipes" could bother me less - if they want to pay more, so be it. If I really want an item, and I'm short on time - I just bid the maximum I'm willing to pay and forget it. If I win O.K., if not, it's still O.K. Sniping doesn't bother me at all - I've already determined the maximum the item is worth to me - and if someone bids more in the last 4 seconds, so be it. If they bid an hour earlier it wouldn't make any difference to me - I've already determined what I'm willing to pay for the item - they can have it. I have even done "sniping" on eBay - only to be "better sniped" by somebody else. Who cares? It's all in the game, guys. If you REALLY just HAVE to have the item, and you didn't bid your maximum, just contact the winner and see what he'll be willing to sell it to you for.... Or, as I've done several times, contact the seller and see if he/she has another one. Several times they have - and in one case I got it for 2/3 the price that the high bidder had paid for the item!!! Lyle On Wednesday 25 February 2004 08:42, Peter C. Wallace wrote: -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

I think I was pretty shocked the first time I saw sniping, maybe around the fifth auction I bid on. It took only a short while after that to get used to it as the nature of the machinery. Probably the reason why I accept sniping now is that it isn't all that intrusive, less than 20% of the auctions I see seem to have it going on. If everyone using eBay were to go to effortless sniping robots I would hate the experience, and expect eBay to measure and limit it, or get forgotten like bad spam. Knowledge given away is a diasdvantage in a purely competitive environment and withholding the knowledge of your bid amount I don't mean to give the impression that I snipe all the time, I've done it, manually, only on very important things, and less than 5% of the time. John A.

In most, maybe all states, being an intentional shill is illegal. The law extends beyond Ebay. I have had "friends" offer to shill for me, but I told them in big letters - NO. William Donzelli aw288(a)osfn.org