27 Jul
2013
27 Jul
'13
11:47 p.m.
On Sat, 28 Jul 2013, David Cooper wrote:
Apologies about top-posting...it'd take a century to ctrl-k all the other
lines out.
Anyone have a spare front panel board for a VAXstation 4000 model 60? The
switch on mine got damaged and attempting to fix it damaged it more...
Yes, I have a 4000/90. I seem to remember there's magic involved. Let me
break it out and see what I can figure out again. It's been a while. What
terminal are you using? I have a VT100 and VT520 readily available to test.
I guess I also have a USB to RS232 on my laptop that I could test with using
PuTTY. You can contact me directly if you want.
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Soderstrom
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 5:45 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: VAXstation 4000/90
Hi, anybody out there playing with Vax's? Trying to work out if I have
connect the terminal correctly or if the logic board is dead. I posted on
openvmshobbyist.com, but that forum seems pretty sleepy. Is there any other
forum for VMS thats active?
Regards,
Daniel.
Sent from my iPad
On 28/07/2013, at 1:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
--
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http://gewt.net Personal stuff
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: LCD rot? (Eric Smith)
2. Re: LCD rot? (David Cooper)
3. Aug. 3-4-- HUGE lot of vintage micros f/s @ MARCH event in
central NJ (Evan Koblentz)
4. Available N8VEM PCBs on Vintage-Computer Marketplace
(Andrew Lynch)
5. Paging Glen Slick (Alexandre Souza)
6. Re: LCD rot? (Chris Pye)
7. Re: HP 9830A always turns on with blank display (Tony Duell)
8. Re: Help identifying component(s) (Tony Duell)
9. Re: HP 9830A always turns on with blank display (Tony Duell)
10. Re: LCD rot? (Tony Duell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 10:32:52 -0600
From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: LCD rot?
Message-ID:
<CAFrGgTSj7sKF3yo-Mxqns=CFNARan5f_EuzFZCpC=q9QsvrRNA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com>
wrote:
Heat might do it I suppose. I wonder if you could
"wake" them back up by
forcing each pixel full on/full off over and over?
If there's a black line consisting of a full line or lines of pixels,
that's most likely caused by either a fault in the driver for that
line, or a failure of the electrical connection. Cycling the pixels
won't help with that.
There's a lesser chance of dead lines being caused by having a DC bias
on that line for an extended period, which shouldn't happen except in
a failure of the LCD controller. Cycling the pixels could help with
that, but if the controller failed to cause it, it's unlikely that the
controller has started working correctly again. Since this kind of
failure only occurs when the LCD is powered up with the controller not
working for an extended period of time, it's not going to result from
having the LCD being stored unpowered for an extended time.
The black blob problem, which usually eventually reaches the all-black
case, is caused by a chemical change (oxidation?) of the liquid
crystal material, and I don't think there's anything you can do
electrically that's going to fix or even reduce the problem. AFAICT
that's caused by the seal failing, which can be caused by temperature
extremes, but sometimes just happens as a result of aging.
It can also be caused by mechanical pressure between the glass layers,
but leaving it sit for a few years, even with wide temperature swings,
shouldn't cause it in that manner.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 10:24:46 -0700
From: "David Cooper" <trs80 at marmotking.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at
classiccmp.org>,
"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: LCD rot?
Message-ID: <14085220AD444885BF8F13AF1B3BA985 at planetx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I've seen it happen on all sorts of LCD displays no matter how they were
stored. I think LCDs must just not age well.
-----Original Message-----
From: dwight elvey
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 6:19 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: LCD rot?
From: pye at mactec.com.au
Subject: LCD rot?
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:01:03 +1000
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
I have just pulled a heap of old Apple PowerBooks and Newtons out of
storage, and have discovered that quite a few of the LCDs that were
perfect last time I looked at them (some probably not for seven years ago
now) have deteriorated to the point that they are no longer usable.
Problems vary from big black splotches on mono screens, to colour screens
with almost the entire display from the centre out showing only the
backlight.
What are the causes for these kind of problems? Heat? Humidity?
They have been stored for the last six or seven years in a cool dry
environment, but did spend one summer in a storage facility that could
have reached 40 deg c at times.
Chris
The seal around the edge of the screen has failed.It may be the high heat
that does it??Dwight
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 16:13:02 -0400
From: Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Aug. 3-4-- HUGE lot of vintage micros f/s @ MARCH event in
central NJ
Message-ID: <51F2D84E.6040601 at snarc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi all. Remember this thread:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?37642-NJ-USA-Large-l…
.....? Now it's time for we in MARCH to sell everything on the owner's
behalf.
Rules are what you'd expect: nothing's being tested; nothing's being
shipped; cash only; no parting out; no "dibs"; etc. .... you've got to
BE THERE or be square.
The following list is around 90% accurate. I might have mis-counted, for
example, where there are more than one of the same machine. Also, the
owner said there's a few other random items that will be available. And
last but not least, we in MARCH might grab one or two specific things
for the club collection; for example we might want one or two of the
Franklins.
Keep in mind, the Aug. 3-4 event is NOT the VCF East -- that's not until
next April -- this event is primarily a vintage computer repair weekend.
Entry is $10.
Without further ado, here's the rough list:
Amstrad PPC640
Apple II+ (x2)
Apple IIc (several...)
Apple IIe (x4)
Apple IIgs (x4)
Apple Lisa II (possibly XL; not sure)
Mac Classic
Mac SE
Mac 512
Mac Plus 1MB
Mac IIcx
Mac IIci (x4)
Mac II
Mac II Plus
Mac Powerbook 170
Mac LC
Mac LC3
Mac Quadra 605
Mac Quadra 950
Mac Quadra 800
Mac Quadra 700
Mac Quadra 800
Mac Quadra 700
Mac Portable
Disk II (x4)
misc. Apple kb+drives
AT&T Unix PC
C-64
VIC-20 (x2)
Compaq 286
Compaq 386 in nice case
Compaq Portable 3
Compaq SLT 286
Compaq portable 286
Compaq portable 386
Compaq portable 486C (x2)
DEC Rainbow
DEC Rainbow 100
Epson HX-20
Franklin ACE 500 (x2)
Franklin ACE 1000
Franklin ACE 1200
Franklin ACE 2100
box of Model M keyboards
IBM 5155
IBM 5140 (x3) -- one has a nice case
IBM Power Station 340
IBM Power Server 32xx
IBM 8573/121 portable with case (x2)
Osborne
"random box of laptops"
TRS-80 Model 1
Tandy 4D
Tandy 4P
Tandy CoCo 3
Tandy Model 2
Tandy 8MB HD (x2)
Tandy 6000HD (x2)
Tandy 12
Tandy CoCo
Tandy Model 100
Tandy Model 3
Tandy CoCo2 (boxed) (x2)
Kaypro II (x2)
Kaypro 4
Kaypro 2000
Spark Server 1000
Spark storage array
Spark Voyager
TI Professional Computer
TI Silent 700
Toshiba T1600
Toshiba 3200 SCX
Toshiba 4700CS
Zorba luggable
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 16:44:10 -0400
From: "Andrew Lynch" <LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Available N8VEM PCBs on Vintage-Computer Marketplace
Message-ID: <009c01ce8a40$e1ed04f0$a5c70ed0$(a)YAHOO.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
I am selling multiple vintage computer related items including N8VEM home
brew computer PCBs and parts on Vintage Computers and Gaming Marketplace.
http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/other_items.php?limit=100&owner…
00048&item_type=all
Please check out what's for sale and if anything interests you please
contact me.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:49:06 -0300
From: "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Paging Glen Slick
Message-ID: <F22BDC533F2644B6BEBE0B70B0788066 at tababook>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Glen, I've sent you some private messages and got no answer, check your
spam folder! :o)
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 08:38:20 +1000
From: Chris Pye <pye at mactec.com.au>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: LCD rot?
Message-ID: <C961B4F6-C71F-4896-B200-1E16B9DF74A3 at mactec.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
On 27/07/2013, at 2:32 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
The black blob problem, which usually eventually
reaches the all-black
case, is caused by a chemical change (oxidation?) of the liquid
crystal material, and I don't think there's anything you can do
electrically that's going to fix or even reduce the problem. AFAICT
that's caused by the seal failing, which can be caused by temperature
extremes, but sometimes just happens as a result of aging.
I wonder if it is possible to reseal or place an extra seal on existing
old (but still good) displays to preserve them a bit longer.
From my relatively small sample it seems that age
alone does't have much
bearing, as out of eight Powerbooks the two older PB100 are not affected
(but they do have other problems).
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:47:32 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP 9830A always turns on with blank display
Message-ID: <m1V2prO-000J4ZC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
The original circuit has a voltage divider for
the LDR formed with
the 18.2K resistor in the lower half and the LDR to +5V, feeding the
negative input of the 741, with the positive input fixed at 2.5V. The
result is the 741 (comparator) will trip when the LDR resistance
passes through 18.2KOhms.
Agreed
[...]
In your simulation, you used resistances for the
LDR of 74K dark and
I fial to see why you need to 'simulate' this circuit. The actual
comparator circuit, whether the origianl HP one iwth no feedback or the
intended modification is simple enopug hthat you can understand it in
your head.
The dificult part is the sensor itself. Yes, you can measure the ligth
and dark resistances (and if they really are 74K and 4K then it should
work with an unmodified comparator circuit). But I don;t think you cna
simulatre the sensor more than that. There are too many unknowns.
4K illuminated. That should have worked just fine
with the original
HP circuit, although it wouldn't work with the way you have actually
modded the board.
Where are youre results/descriptions of this? Rik has desciribed what he
did, you have (quite probably correctly) found errors in it. But I don't
see your work published anywhere.
I wrote it because it's a working (tested)
solution for an actual
problem.
AND you can't just replace the CDSe type with a normal off the
shelf LDR
that doesn't work, I tried..
So be careful before just shouting something without testing it!
I'm not shouting, I am being careful - far more than you, and I have
repaired and done a fair degree of experimentation with these sensors
(in one instance replacing the lamp/LDR pair with an IR LED/
phototransistor pair, and it didn't require any changes to the
comparator circuit). I haven't counted how many items I have
reverse engineered, but it's
many dozens, over a hundred I expect depending on what level of
Is that all :-)?
-tony
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:03:08 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Help identifying component(s)
Message-ID: <m1V2q6T-000J4dC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
Those are the little "tin cans" that
IBM used, back in the early to mid
'70s, to enclose (encapsualte) their "medium scale integration" -- an
earlier generation, before the "LSI" (Large Scale Integration" chips
took over pretty much everything.
These were used in virtually all IBM products of that day, from
mainfames, to minicomputers, to control units, and even inside other
intelligent devices, like the disk drives and printers, etc., for the
"logic" on-board ...
As an aside, IIRC the sense amplifier circuit in the original PC and
PC/XT keybaord used one of those metal-can ICs.
-tony
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:21:53 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP 9830A always turns on with blank display
Message-ID: <m1V2qOe-000J4eC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
> Secondly, IC pin numbers. Every IC has all
the connecitons
> unambiguously
> described. If the pins all have unique names (like a RAM, or a
> counter or
> a '154 decodoe) then I simply use those names or something obviously
> equivalent to them That is why tyou see things like signal BRA(2)
> going
> to a pin on an 11/03 RAM labeleld A0. BRA(2) is 'Buffered RAM Address'
> bit 2. The 'bit 2' meanming it comes from address line 2 of the
> processor
> eventially. A0 is the pin on the RAM that Intel called A0 in the
> databook.
>
> Nwo, for simpler TTL ICs, I have a convention. For things like AOI
> gates
> I put the pins in alphabetical order from the TTL databook going
> dwon the
> page. And for simple gates I draw them so that the 'upper' pin on the
> schemtic is towards the pin 1 end of the IC. So that, for example
>
>
> ---------|\
> | >o---------
> ---------|/
> U5c
> '00
>
>
> Means
>
> 10
> ---------|\ 8
> | >o---------
> ---------|/
> 9 U5c
> '00
>
> THis may not be obviouus, but all you had to do was ask me...
If forgot to add that the only non-obvious oen is section 'a' of a triple
3-input gat like the '10 or '27. The convention then is
1----|\
2----| >0--- 12
13---|/
While one may want to communicate with an author
about more subtle
aspects of their work, this is such a basic thing I see no need for
asking, and waiting, for an answer about it. I can't say it would
even occur to me to ask, as if you have a convention about it, it
I have sene this convention used so many times that it never occured to
me to describe it.
In any case... The ouptus of all ICs are unambiguous. I don't think there
are any ICs in the HP9830 that have 2 identical output pins you could
confuse. In which case you could simply trace the few signal (often just
2) at the input of the gate back ot the outputs that drive them and 'buzz
them out' with an ohmmeter. It would take less time to do that for the IC
you are interested in than to post this message.
could simply be noted at the beginning or end of
the work, along with
such things as source material identification, dates, table of
contents, etc.
As a matter of preference, when working on something, I don't want to
have to go from the schematic, then to a pinout to interpret what pin
is being ref'd, and then to the device.
And I have the opposite preference I am afraid. I find pin numbers on
scheamtisc to be irritating. In most cases I know the common TTL pinouts
anyway. For anything else I don't mind having the data book open.
Here are some disadvantages to hand-drawing, aside from basic clarity:
1. The low density means the schematic is spread across more pages.
There is no inherrent reason why a hand drawn scheamtic has a lower
component density than a CAD one.
The limitation on the number of compoentns o na bit of ppaer is
obviosuly due to the size of that paper. The limitation for a CAD system
is the size of the 'virtual paper'.
And I find 'large' CAD diagrams to be a right pain. If you want a printed
copy, you either end up with a much reduced copy which is close to
unreadable, or a number of sheets that have to be lined up and stuck
together. I much preer diagrams desigend to be printed or drawn on A4
sheets.
2. The difficulty of modifying and manipulating
a hand-drawing,
along with the low density,
results in more symbolic connections. Symbolic connections,
while of course useful,
are disadvantageous in that it is not readily clear where all
the uses of a signal are.
I think like you imply here I actually prefer symbolic names provided
they are meaningful (I ahve seen commerical multi-page diagrams where the
signals are just A...Z, AA,AB...AZ, etc) There are a few i nthe HP9830
diagrams where I will admit not to pickign the most suitable name.
'KeyDn/' is the obvious one, it's actualyl a general interrupt input to
the CPU. It goet that name becuase the first machien I looekd at was the
hP9810, and the only thing it's used for there is the keyboard.
Yes, a CAD system would have made it easy to change this. But the other
disadvantages mean I did not use one.
3. (2) is compounded in that the drawings are
unsearchable.
With a computer-based drawing, if one wants to find every
reference
to some signal/symbol, one just walks through it with a search.
As an aside, I have never seen a commerical service manaul (on CD-ROM or
whatever) where yuo can search for signal neames on the schematics.
4. I don't expect OCR to be a remedy to
(3).
You have your preferences and conventions, I have mine, some may
prefer yours, some may prefer mine.
I think that;'s right. I took a look at your AL1000 schematics (BTW there
are a couple of broekn links there). In the form you have presented them
they are very useful for understnading how the machine works, I think,
but not so useful for actually repairing one. Wpoorkign out what is on
each board, what components comprise each gate and flip-flop (and yes, I
ahve read your conventions, etc) is too much to have to deal with if I
had the machine in bits in front of me.
This wasn't really about your schematic, it
was whether it is
acceptable for anyone else to RE something Tony already has.
Yo uare reading far too much into this.
I will just point out that _you_ raised the issue of my schematics. I
did not mention them at first.
-tony
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:33:07 +0100 (BST)
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: LCD rot?
Message-ID: <m1V2qZV-000J4gC at p850ug1>
Content-Type: text/plain
I have just pulled a heap of old Apple PowerBooks and Newtons out of
storage, and have discovered that quite a few of the LCDs that were
perfect last time I looked at them (some probably not for seven years
ago now) have deteriorated to the point that they are no longer usable.
Problems vary from big black splotches on mono screens, to colour
screens with almost the entire display from the centre out showing only
the backlight.
For monochrome LCDs, a black splodge genrally means the liquid crystal
material has leakced out. Rememebr that there are corssed poalraising
filters o nthe sides of hte display and that the unenrgized state of the
liquid crystal is to rotate the polarisation of light by 90 degrees. So
that an unergized dispaly transmitls like (looks 'light') but if the
liquid crystal material leaks out, you are essentially lookuing trhoug
corssed polarising filters with nothign to rotate the plane of
polarisation, so it looks black.
As yo waht caues it, damage to the seals between the 2 layers of glass. I
susepct heat or mechanical shock is a common cause of this damage.
-tony
End of cctalk Digest, Vol 119, Issue 36
***************************************