> Do you see a common thread to the complaints
here? No one seems to be
> saying that the "10 year rule" is perfect. What people are complaining
> about is a nebulous statement that the "10 year rule" is dead, and that
this
> list is for discussing "Classic"
computers. It is obvious to anyone
what
> the "10 year rule" meant. I don't
see where anyone is clear what
"Classic"
means.
At last! Somebody has got the point.
To be honest, I didn't much care for the 10 year rule, but it had the
great advantage it was unambiguous. A computing machine over 10 years old
was on-topic, one younger than that was off topic. Simple.
Now I have no idea what a classic computer is now defined as. It may well
mean different things to different people. I am sure there are machines
that everyone here will think of as classics (let's say the original
straight-8). There are others that are more boderline.
Is this really necessary? Personally, I don't need anyone to define what a
classic computer is, I know damn well. Especially given examples; PDPs are
on topic, early programmable calculators are on topic, 80s non-x86 home
computers are on topic etc. I doubt that common early-90s programmable
calculators should be on-topic. And late model Dells running Windows 98 or
later is off topic. Really, honestly, it should just be a matter of COMMON
SENSE. Caps because it's worth shouting. OK, we might not all agree on every
machine's on-topicness, but in 95% of cases it's obvious, and a bit of
flexibility, tolerance and above all common sense should be able to deal
with the other 5%.
Really, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence
wouldn't be able to apply common sense to figure out whether a post should
be made or not, given the topic of 'classic computers'. But if people
absolutely must be guided to that extent, fine - may I suggest a list of
what's on topic and what's not? Here's an example (not suggesting this as
gospel, by the way, it's just an example):
On topic:
- Any computer or programmable calculator made before 1985
- CP/M or other classic OS running on ANY hardware (yes, this includes
boring late model Dells) so long as discussion centres on the OS, not
late-model hardware
- Tools (OEM service tools, oscilloscopes etc) and their use related to
on-topic hardware
- Troubleshooting advice/requests where applicable to on-topic
hardware/software
Off topic:
- Windows 95 or later
- x86, post-68k Mac hardware
- Bicycles, guns, cars, needlepoint, oceanography etc. ad inifinitum
I stress again, I wouldn't have thought this is necessary. But if people
MUST have rules defining on/off-topicness, I think it could work. It can be
updated easily as conditions change. For instance, I'm sure Win95 will
become on-topic sometime, like it or not. I have to say that I've been on
this list (admittedly lurking) for a very long time now, five to six years
perhaps, and the fact that the ten-year rule is no longer current has been
brought up repeatedly since then. Why it's suddenly become an issue now I
fail to comprehend; I believe that it's completely useless as a yardstick
anyway. One of my servers is a Pentium 133 from c. 1995, currently running
Windows 2000 Server. I don't think I should be given even a tiny excuse to
discuss that machine on this list. But I also have a Mac from about 1997 or
so, with an interesting owner history, and running Linux. Perhaps that ought
to be on-topic? I'm sure there are much better examples than that, too.
Suggestion number two - if the ten-year rule is that important to some
people, perhaps we can strike a compromise and add to our 'off topic' list,
something like the following: "All computers less than ten years old are off
topic". This is NOT to say that everything older than ten years is
automatically on-topic, it just states that to be classic, a computer must
be at least ten years old.
And just a quick note on the current management of the list - Someone needs
to provide the service of list maintenance, guidance, and laying down of the
law when required. From my perspective, nothing Jay has said has been
unreasonable, and I'm grateful to him for doing what he has. I used to do
that sort of thing as well, but exactly this kind of situation made me swear
'never again'. Please, let's see what we can do to make the list work and to
help, rather than just complaining about the situation as it stands? Common
sense, flexibility, friendliness,...
Many apologies for dragging this awful discussion out further, but I think
we need to sort the issue out.
m.
