While I'd definitely have to weigh in on the side of the 'C' programmers,
there are a few things that have disappointed me over the years, more with
the compilers than with the general notion of 'C' as a language. As I've
often said, however, "Where you sit determines what you see." I live in
the microcontroller world, and the compilers vary widely in terms of
functionality and quality. There's a range of compilers reaching from doing
WAY too much to doing virtually nothing helpful at all.
'C' allows me to write code for these small computers/controllers that runs
pretty quickly in terms of development time/effort, yet still enables me to
focus my efforts on the task specifics. The compiler (hopefully) deals with
the common logica constructs, e.g. iteration, comparison, etc. though it
can't be relied on to produce the most compact code nor can it be expected
to produce the shortest run times. Most of these compilers produce assembly
language output. That means that I can take their output and whittle on at
as I need to.
I've seen very few of the more popular languages available for
microcontrollers. There's no CC++ for the PIC, nor is there an ADA for the
68HC705. WHile there are PASCAL compilers for the more popular
microcontrollers, they're not that common, and support for the various
flavors of the common, e.g. 8x51-core-based varieties, of which there are
literally dozens, is often left to the user.
If it weren't for 'C', there'd only be assembler for most of my programming,
and, frankly, if it weren't for 'C', there'd probably be few assemblers,
since they're almost all written in 'C'.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: The C programming language
>>In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes:
>>
>>> I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the
>>> sense of degeneration.
>>
>>Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and
portable
>>language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at
the
>>same time allowing elegance in program design and structure.
>
>The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. The obfuscated C code
>contest kind of invented itself.
>
>
>On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb(a)sympatico.ca) wrote:
>>
>> I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers.
>> That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic
>> residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?)
>> not to enter one.
So... were you someone's mother in another lifetime? ;-) There are already
enough laws that try to protect stupid people from themselves, while putting
a real damper on those of us who have brains enough to safely engage in
"hazardous" activities. Relax!
A number of years ago, they filmed part of the movie "Amerika" (which was
apparently about the USA being taken over by Soviets or something; I've
never seen it). They had a big sale at the end of the movie, held inside
the former location of a big K-mart store. People went nuts buying all the
clothes and props from the movie. That night, we drove by and noticed that
there was a *bunch* of stuff in the dumpsters out back. Upon further
investigation, the alley was found to be blocked off with a semi trailer
parked across each end. As we were in a Fiat X-1/9 at the time, that wasn't
a problem; we just drove under the truck. Found a bunch of electronic odds
and ends (props from the "communication van" driven by the "resistance
fighters", so I'm told). Popped the removable hard top off the Fiat and
started lobbing stuff in. Also found a couple of cool little Northern
Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads
in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard
in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the
back. About the time the car was getting full, the police arrived at the
near end of the alley, probably summoned by the night watchman. Since they
hadn't told us to stop or anything, we just hopped in the car, drove down
the alley, under the semi trailer at the far end, and off down the street.
Bet they're still scratching their heads over that one. :-)
Bill Richman
incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
(Home of the COSMAC Elf
microcomputer simulator!)
I tried hard to understand the socio-psychological dynamic that led up to
the development of this pseudo-language, Ebonyx, in the minds of the
west-coast (that's code for "californicated") education community's leaders.
The place I arrived was at the conclusion that since the west-coast
community was unable to teach the young Blacks to stay in their chairs on
the few occasions on which they did attend class, they certainly couldn't
teach them to read, speak, and write properly, so they were forced to
classify what they, the young Blacks, did instead was another language.
This was seriously muddled in the debate over whether the educators on the
west coast should also be required to read, write, and speak properly.
The notion of Ebonyx was their way to "throw-in-the-towel" (for those
unfamiliar with U.S. boxing industry practice, this is a signal of
surrender.) so they wouldn't themselves have to learn what they had shown
they couldn't teach. If you ever spend any time in today's U.S. public
schools, you'll be appalled at the low quality of speech which has become
the norm among today's educators. When I was a pupil in the public schools,
I always found my teachers able to speak better-than-average English.
Today, that's no longer the case. They've become so wrapped up in being
"friends" with the pupils, they've forgotten they need to set an example.
I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools
that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure
in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing,
which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point
of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an
infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and
a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the
teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages
all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make
reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go
in order to teach those same characteristics in another language.
It's a sad situation.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: languages
>
>
>On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
>
>>
>> I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote
>> gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle.
>
>I'd be one to agree with that.
>
>> I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I
earned
>> two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall,
>> though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if
>> only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might
>> function that way also.
>
>Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler,
>focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time
>I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were
>more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools.
>
>Allison
>
>
>
--- Doug Coward <mranalog(a)home.com> wrote:
> FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS:
> "Items available for disposal" page:
> http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html
>..."GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile:
I've heard of these. It's the source of the name J.M.S. used in the B5
episode "Infection" (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/004.html). From
the Lurker's Guide:
Ikarra may be an Australian Aboriginal word.
The Australian DSTO (Defence Sciences and Technology Organisation)
developed the anti-submarine weapon "Ikara" in the 1950's. It is no
longer in use in the Australian Navy, having been fired for the last
time in 1990. The Brazilian Navy may still use a variation of it.
Since the DSTO has a tradition of naming its products after warlike
Aboriginal animals, it's plausible that the word refers to an animal.
Not only "missile guidance computers", but pre-integrated-circuit missile
guidance computers, depending on the exact vintage of what's in the Bristol
Aero Collection.
> The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to
> the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic
> items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable
> rules."
I'd better get back to work on my incorporation papers.
> In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara:
> Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a
> 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor
> and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot.
> The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built
> Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980
> lbs at takeoff.
I wonder how much of that is fuel and payload? 60%? 80%? How does
U.S. Airways feel about a missile in checked baggage? :-)
-ethan
=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com
The original webpage address is still going away. The
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Hi,
I've been using the used book search engines for
the last year, searching for an old journal article.
Afraid that I may never find the article, I decided
to ask for help. I'm hoping that one of you living
in the U.K. might have access to a library that has
a good collection of back issues of "Memoirs and
Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosophical
Society". The article is "The Construction of a Model
Differential Analyser" by D.R. Hartree and A. Porter
in the July 1935 issue. If you think you can help
me obtain a copy, contact me and let's work out
a trade.
FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS:
I just thought I would mention this since some
people on this list are interested in missle guidance
computers.
While searching for information on the 1911 Bristol
Boxkite, I came across the web page for the Bristol
Aero Collection, Cirencester, England. On their
"Items available for disposal" page:
http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html
they list:
"GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile:
A number of complete missiles is available, without launcher."
The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to
the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic
items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable
rules."
In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara:
Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a
12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor
and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot.
The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built
Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980
lbs at takeoff.
Happy Hunting,
--Doug
====================================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work)
Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home)
Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Analog Computer Museum and History Center
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog
====================================================
<Not so! The subject is compound, i.eVERBS and NOUNS (the conjuction AND
<makes it compound) the verb is WERE, and MORE is a predicate nominative,
<i.e. a substantive (any word functioning as a NOUN) with a role of modifyin
Major snippage...
We still talking about that twisted pair of gramatical convolution?
>> Up to that point verbs and nouns were
>> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools.
>
>This sentence no verb! :-)
I only wrote the first one.
Allison
You're right in that the dictionary has the task of letting everyone know
how the language IS spoken. It's also the schools' job to teach the kids in
school how people DO speak, so they can do so well enough to hold their own,
rather than having to be supported by the government.
I believe this last part has been largely forgotten.
Studies have shown that average graduates from high schools throughout the
U.S. are quite incapable of reading a descriptive article and concluding
even the basics about what was written. Unfortunately, it is not fair to
expect these same graduates to write better than they can read and
comprehend.
There's why our system is failing. I can't hand a young college graduate a
data book and expect him to figure out what a given device does and how it
does it. Consequently, I can't use current graduates at all.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: languages
>> > Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording
>> > phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know
>> > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ?
>
>> Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to
establish
>> the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get
funding
>> to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to
get
>> funding, nothing more.
>
>:))
>
>> > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with
>> > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead
>> > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from
>> > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems)
>> *laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but
it's
>> a good analogy...
>:)
>
>> > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ?
>
>> I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the
mark.
>> A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts
are
>> added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes.
Until
>> recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very
prescriptive
>> way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary
and/or
>> grammar system you embrace.
>
>No, I'm bloody serious (beside some humorous thing). In my opinion
>C (and C++) is way down the ladder and as more as I think about I
>find it more and more similar to the 'real' language thing discussed
>in here.
>
>I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the
>sense of degeneration.
>
>I often think about what happened - why are all other languages
>out classed ? Some beauty(and use)full are almost forgotten.
>What happened to Pascal, Modula or Smalltalk (not to talk about
>ADA which I still consider the best design ever) ?
>
>There's only C (no, I don't recognize C++ or Java on their own).
>And interestingly a still existing COBOL population.
>
>> However in the late 60s (things take time to
>> filter into the education system) some language experts - notably
Webster's
>> Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over
time.
>> Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the
>> business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak.
>
>> One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage
>> dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy.
>
>Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German
>languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede.
>
>Anyway
>H.
>
>--
>VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen
>http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
>http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
There are a few characteristics, not necessarily ones of which the Black
community is proud, which certainly are traceable to one-time African tribal
culture. A few moments with a stack of police blotters will show that
there's a really noticeable tendency among Hispanics to "burgle" outside
their own community, while it appears quite common that a Black man will
steal his neighbor's TV-set, only to invite the victim and his family to
come over to watch the game at his house.
I've read/heard that this is traceable to ancient and still-practiced custom
in various west African cultures. However, I'd not recommend doing that in
THIS society. That tendency to ignore the realities of life within the
present culture, both legal and ethnic, is purported to have arisen as a
defense against burglary charges on more than one occasion.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: John Wilson <wilson(a)dbit.dbit.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: languages (Ebonics)
>On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote:
>> BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic
>> roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo,
>> and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how
>> "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker
>> (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained
>> shades of meaning than SAE does.
>
>I'd love to see an example of this! What really catches my attention is
>when someone begins a sentence with "know what I'm saying?", there's a lot
>of stuff like that that's really annoyingly meaningless. Also I'm not
>sure how much can really be traced to Africa, since a lot of this stuff
>really seems to have only cropped up in the past few generations. Ahhhh,
>what ever happened to Jive? Now *that* was fun to listen to! Ehh, I mean,
>that was a thing to which it was fun to listen. Never mind...
>
>John Wilson
>D Bit
There's a reason for the old saw, "Those who can, do, while those who can't,
teach." The typical teacher candidate graduated in the bottom third of
his/her high school class, went to a clearly second-or-third-rate college
and did poorly there. Because of the emphasis on "diversity" there has been
a preference for minority candidates who relied on waivers of the customary
standards to get into and through the usual educational programs, then
relied on minority preferences to get past the hiring standards, and lastly,
now rely on the system's unwillingness to take negative action agains a
member of an ethnic minority to keep them on until they attain tenure, after
which they'll do what they like, regardless.
In my years on school committees I saw plenty of hoops being jumped-through
by administration to meet their requirements without violating the various
restrictions imposed on them by the various ethnic and cultural programs
imposed from without. Unfortunately, as more of these administrators come
>from minority cultures, other problems begin to surface. In the middle
school attended by both my boys, there was a principal who used federal
money as a justification to bring "troubled" (meaning criminal) youngsters
>from other districts in with the "hope" of giving them another chance.
Several of us on the steering committees tried to put an end to this, as it
seemed to result in disproportionately high incident rates involving
ethinically charged circumstances.
I surely hope this is just evidence that the pendulum's swung too far in one
direction.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: languages
>Chris,
>
>Good explanation, you cleared identified a part of the problem but it's
>not all the student's fault. An even worse problem is that the students are
>taught by teachers that aren't any better educated than the students
>they're teaching. We can thanks years of preferential college admissions
>and hiring practices for that. Furthermore the quality of teachers as
>declined steadily with the rise in power of the NEA and other teacher's
>unions since most teacher's are more concerned about their income than in
>teaching. Other factors such as the decision to teach in "native languages"
>haven't helped either. Every part of the educational system is lowering
>it's standards to accomodate the worst (insert your choice here; student,
>teacher, school system, income, etc etc). And every part of the system is
>failing to support the other parts. The whole educational system is in
chaos.
>
> I wonder if the US is the only country that is having these kinds of
>problems in it's "educational" system?
>
> Joe
>
>At 09:57 AM 3/9/00 -0800, Chris wrote:
>>Richard Erlacher wrote:
>>
>>[Stuff deleted]
>>
>>> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the
tools
>>> that should have been taught with English,
>>
>>[more stuff deleted]
>>
>>I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three
local
>>high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language
skills
>>I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding
>>of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing
>>the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were
almost
>>uniformly present across all of the entries.
>>
>>The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high
>>school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and
shot.
>>Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them
polysyllabic,
>>but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as
>>an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors
>>to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing
>>consequences ("...our science fairy teacher...").
>>
>>There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well
executed
>>and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were
>>from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their
>>neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the
>>instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common
>>denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional
>>students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such
>>student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging.
>>
>>> It's a sad situation.
>>
>>It's beyond sad. It's criminal.
>>
>>FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon
>>high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The
>>problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental
>>skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus
>>penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it
>>will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable
>>students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something
>>useful with their lives.
>>
>>*Grumble*,
>>Chris
>>--
>>Chris Kennedy
>>chris(a)mainecoon.com
>>http://www.mainecoon.com
>>PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
>>
>
That's not what is going on here!
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: languages
>>
>> allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
>> > Up to that point verbs and nouns were
>> > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools.
>>
>> This sentence no verb! :-)
>
>Erm. Hmm. You can construe that sentance to have a verb, but it doesn't
>make any sense if you do. :) Verb, the word, has become a verb of late.
>To verb another word, you make it into a verb. So if you verb verb (ugh)
>you're saying your sentance doesn't verb. (double ugh). :)
>
>Now you've done it. You've got me playing word games. :)
>
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
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