> Not true. Nearly every museum will welcome volunteers with open arms, and
> as long as the artifcats are not abused, they can be worked on and used.
> Just about anyone on this list is welcome at RCS/RI to play with any of
> our machines. Once we know people well enough, machines can be taken home
> on a loan basis. In this we are not some odd organization - many museums
> work exactly in this fashion. And the price is zero.
Bill-
While it really helps to have "live" organizational skills,
I think a group of organizationally-challenged folk could
do wonders if they had a roadmap to follow, and from the
sounds of it, you & Merle & Co. have put together something
special.
Have you considered writing up either your experiences in
putting the RCS/RI together, or even better, something
closer to a step-by-step guide to finding the interested
local parties and what to look for in terms of facilities
(lots of space & separately derived 3-phase power systems
are obvious; other things are less so).
It may never happen here in the Louisville area (whatever
critical mass of interest is required may or may not be
present), but I'd like to try getting it started. We have
a Museum of Science and Technology, but it's all mass-public
stuff, IMAX Theatre, etc.
-doug q
I'll be off-list for a while due to an upcoming vacation. Back soon!
73 de WD6EOS
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:55 AM
Subject: $700 TRS-80???
>Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion
>box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for
>$700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600.
Stupidity.
>There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in
>the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and
>no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one?
buy the cheap one. ;)
Allison
Obviously you are looking in the wrong places if the price of equipment
is too high for you nor are you looking at the "big picture"...
Sure, I use eBay, but only for stuff that's cheap, if it is too
expensive I look for things other people don't know about or haven't
thought of collecting yet. (My BASIC games book collection is doing
nicely, thank you.)
If I can't get stuff on eBay cheap, then I scour the thrift stores, yard
sales, newsgroups, shows like VCF, etc. If computer X is too expensive,
I wait, heck, in 5 years I'll probably get one, I'm in no rush...
(thats how I got most of my computers cheap, either buy it new in stores
or wait a few years till it's lifespan brings it to Salvation Army...)
Also if you have the webspace available - do justice to your favorite
collection and help others, this is not only a status symbol for the
collector but also let's visitors know that if they clean out their
closet of classic stuff/info, there is a place they can send it to who
will appreciate it and use it to assist others. (yes, I have received a
few contributions and am very appreciative.) But of course if you fall
into the "beanie babie" - collect for investment croud, that advice is a
moot point.
There are alot of aspects to a computer collection, not just the
machines; there is the software, cables, controllers, peripherals,
manuals, books, magazines, ads, stickers, buttons, etc... (in fact some
of the software, manuals books and magazines are probably more rewarding
to find than some of the computers...)
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:34:33 -0700
> From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com>
> Subject: Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer
> Association? Was: Yo
>
> At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote:
> >I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were
> >ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in.
>
> Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there
> anymore,
> its too crowded!"
>
> - --Chuck
--
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Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363
300-14.4k bps
Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:40:31 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli
<aw288(a)osfn.org> writes:
> So what? At least some people can afford to go. For a lucky few, it
> might just be a short trip in the car. Better a few than none...
If you can afford it, go. My point is that despite organized
efforts, not everyone will have access (for various reasons).
This isn't the promoter's fault; it's usually a matter of
geography.
> How about real museums?
Nice, but individual ownership is a much more valuable experience
(to the individual). Not possible once these systems become
'Museum Pieces'.
> How about speadiung knowledge - informing the public and each
> other about the history?
We have forums like this one. But I guess you'll *need* an
'official' organization now: It's becomming apparent that only
certain opinions are now considered 'acceptable'.
> How about saving hardware and software that is out of the reach
> af any individual?
Groups of caring individuals have always worked together towards
this end. In the past, the money wasn't a motivation. I don't
know if this will reman the case in the future.
> How about professional recognition?
I always figured that the real {hobbyists | enthusiasts} weren't
(by definition) 'professionals'. The original developers? Write
one a letter, thanking them for their contribution. I did.
How about security for our collections?
Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked.
> > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of
> > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course.
> > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a
> 'legitimate'
> > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs
> > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists'
> > can have it.
>
> Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The
> one thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone
> like you.
You know, I could get really angry at this last remark, but it just
makes me sad. (Retro)computing was a 'joy' thing. It was so
awesome because just about anyone could experience it. It was
really something special because it's only major cost was the time
and effort you put into it.
What really mattered was what came from the heart, really.
What really matters now, is what comes from the wallet.
I guess it really wasn't so special afterall.
Bye.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________
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> Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go:
> So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of
> a such as noble endeavor such as ours?
Jeff, I'm using your quote as a starting point, please
don't think I'm picking on you.
Well, somewhere between rich and poor (I tend to count
myself the latter), there must be middle ground. My
current focus is on Primes, and I'm playing fast-and-
loose with my bills (as well as selling things I'd
rather keep) to try to get this system to a certain
point where I'll feel comfortable with.
However, had I managed to save that MicroPDP-11/73
>from the Jaws of Greed, I would likely have simply
held on to it until I could find a better home for
it. Strictly speaking, I'd say that's collecting
and not preservationist. But at least I'd have kept
it from the landfill.
Ideally, the poor collectors amongst us can do
lots of that. But I think it's incumbent upon us
to be ready to give up posession to someone who
can do the item more justice than we can.
I think a phrase commonly stated about relationships
might be applicable here. Rephrased: If you love
something, let it go. I'm letting go of at least
one of two unfinished SOL motherboards very, very
soon (but my original working SOL I will keep).
As to the rich: by virtue of your economic power,
you might easily fall into the trap of compulsive
acquisition. Fewer constraints hold you back, and
so the ID runs wild.
Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system
with the parts he was looking for, it would not have
bothered me a wit. I'd like to take solace in knowing
there's a good chance someone restoring a system will
see the parts he has for sale, and buy them. But I'm
afraid they'll just enter a nonterminating speculative
loop.
So, to the rich, let me say this: try to be aware of
what's going on around you, and if you see you're
trying to acquire something that some poor guy is
also going for, remember, this may be his only chance,
and you'll likely have another. And to the poor guys
(like me), I say: be willing to give something up
to someone who can actually get it going sooner
than the 20 years it might take you due to your
more limited financial resources.
Just my tuppence' worth... regards, -doug q
> What if the machines are to be scrapped in a hurry, and no one can take
> the whole thing? I would think that gutting the things is the best
> option. A few parts are better than nothing...
>
> I have done this - specifically with a VAX-11/750 and 4D/380. These were
> advertised on this list in the very early days, but I was apparently the
> only one that could even get close to the machines. Needless to say, I
> couldn't take the machines as a whole, so the cards were pulled.
If that's the only choice- landfill or reduction to parts- sure,
reduce it to parts.
Sometimes, there's middle ground...
-dq
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
>
> > loop that doesn't respond at the speed of light. However, I
> > use delivery and read receipts on all my mail, and if I at
> > least get a receipt back, then I know I'm most likely "in
> > the queue". Failure to receive same leaves me wondering if
> > my message was even received. Not all ISPs and mailers support
>
> I'd be more worried if my message was received but then not replied to.
> I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't get a receipt yet. That would imply
> the person is too busy to even check e-mail yet.
Hmmm, I'd say it would imply the person really isn't very
technologically sophisticated...
"Does that little envelope mean I've got mail, or that I should
write some?"
-dq
> At 03:13 PM 6/27/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> >Chuck was right about the guy that won the bid on
> >the MicroPDP-11/73... the buyer's name is Chris
> >Hoaglin, and all he is interested in is f*cking
> >up a working computer to end up with parts he
> >can sell to fund his greedy little schemes. He
> >wants the backplane and all the cards. I wish the
> >seller would have said NO, but that was not to be.
>
> I'm sorry but I can't agree with the sentiment here.
I appear to have been guilty of projecting, in this
case, reading into your previous remarks what I was
feeling.
Sorry.
I'm desparately looking for parts, but I'd sooner
cut off a limb than rob them from a working system
until _every_ effort has been made to find a good
home for that system. This one appeared to be lacking
an OS (or anything for it to reside on) but I see that
as minor compared to systems with disfunctional stuff
in the backplace.
But I gotta admit, I'm making way too much noise over
a doggone PDP-11 when they aren't my forte to begin
with.
At least I get the tape drive.
regards,
-doug q
>Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system
>with the parts he was looking for, it would not have
>bothered me a wit.
On the gripping hand, I know of some "collectors" (as
in they acquire large amounts of stuff without looking for
commercial gain) who will, for example, rip all the boards out of
a working VAX 8650 but leave the chassis behind, because they have
no way of hauling the chassis cabinets nor a place to put them. As
far as I can tell, nobody wins here, because a working 8650 was turned
into a pile of nearly-worthless parts that will simply sit in the basement
for a couple of decades. Does this stop the offenders? Of course not!
Tim.