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test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by more＠camlaw.rutgers.edu

Hi, I ve never been to this Trenton Computer Fair. What can I expect for things such as parking? Will I have to walk a mile and a half to get there? What is it really? Is it like a giant flea market? Is there admission? It will still be there on Sunday right? What kind of stuff do they have there? Is it all old stuff? Is it all new stuff? Do these people try and "rip" you off? [Im asking because Id like to pick up a CP/M machine here and dont want to pay $100 for it] Sory for all the questions! Les PS Anyone know how to get there from the Philly area? :) [never been to Trenton]

28 years, 7 months

atari printers

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

FYI: Alltronics is selling the Atari 1020 color printer for 15 dollars. www.alltronics.com - they're in San Jose, California. Thought you Atari fans might want to know. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_

28 years, 7 months

On Generations of People and Computers

by ronaldm＠mars.ark.com

>In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: > >> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 >> > >this range? >> > >I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). > >Lou Just a young man are you. Last week I turned 53. -Ron Mitchell

28 years, 7 months

Extra Stuff

by BigLouS＠aol.com

I'll take the 1000. I have a 68000 chip sitting around from my old Amiga and the drives are pretty easy to find. If it's still available let me know what the shipping is. Regards, Lou

28 years, 7 months

Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers )

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Turns out I was too quick to place the blame on an errant journalist. The article, excerpted below (not for profit, and do not forward, etc) actually does say "apple 1" -- it was some bozo on Usenet that made the mistake. The part about the Computer Bowl is correct though. Kai 02490420 60320 THE CUTTING EDGE A Byte of History Techies Taking a Scroll Down Memory Lane Los Angeles Times (LT) - MONDAY August 12, 1996 By: GREG MILLER; TIMES STAFF WRITER Edition: Home Edition Section: Business Page: 1 Pt. D Story Type: Main Story; Infobox Word Count: 1,797 TEXT: The nerds are getting nostalgic. Barely 20 years into the personal computer revolution, techies across the country are growing increasingly sentimental about the machines and programs that changed their lives and ushered in the Information Age. For them, booting up a vintage Commodore PET computer can conjure misty-eyed memories. Toggling the switches of an Altair 8800 is better than gripping the gearshift of a first car. And a shrink-wrapped copy of VisiCalc software beats a mint-condition Mickey Mantle baseball card any day. This is the memorabilia of the PC generation, and after spending much of the last decade or two collecting dust in suburban garages from Silicon Valley to Boston's Route 128, it's starting to make a comeback. Virtual museums of vintage hardware and software are sprouting up all over the Internet's World Wide Web, as are online classified ads placed by collectors desperate to reacquire the technological wonders of their youth. Some rare PCs are fetching much higher prices now than they did when they were brand-new, and even revered institutions such as the Smithsonian are bolstering their computer collections. "The amount of activity that I see is amazing," said Kip Crosby, president of the Computer History Assn. of California in Palo Alto. "People are always asking me: 'Can you find me an Altair? Can you find this or that?' I get 10 to 20 phone calls and e-mails a month, twice as many as a year ago." Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very well when they were new, are even more troublesome to maintain now--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. But like certain cars or baseball cards, high-tech relics are somehow enhanced by the passage of time. Collectors see them as the symbols of a more colorful computer age populated by legendary personalities who became billionaires--or, in some cases, went bust. "That's why I'm interested in computer history," said Co Ho, 30, an Internet administrator at Fullerton College. "Many people could have made it big, but they fell asleep and ended up having somebody else eating their cake." Ho collects vintage software, especially programs that changed the computing landscape but somehow faltered. One of his favorite pieces is CP/M, an early operating system created by Digital Research. CP/M might have become the operating system had Digital Research's founder, the late Gary Kildall, been more hospitable when IBM came calling to license his software. In a legendary blunder, Kildall and his wife refused to sign IBM's confidentiality agreement, and IBM executives took their business to a then-tiny company known as Microsoft. "CP/M missed the boat because of casual behavior," Ho said. "It's really a sad story." Ho is one of the few people who collect software. More collect hardware, and one of the most sought-after machines is the Altair 8800, introduced by MITS Inc. of Albuquerque in 1975. It didn't have a keyboard or a monitor, only rows of switches on the front of the box. The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic programming language for the Altair. The Altair "established Bill Gates in business," said Gwen Bell, founder of the Computer Museum, a Boston mecca for computer lovers. "One of our prize treasures is the original Basic tape that Bill Gates developed on the Altair." Collectors tend to pass over some of the most popular early machines, such as the original IBM PC and the 1984 Apple Macintosh, because there are just too many of them. Scarcity counts, which helps explain why the most valuable collectible is the Apple I. Introduced by Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak in 1976, the Apple I was nothing more than a circuit board. It had no keyboard, no monitor, not even a case. It sold for $666, and only a few hundred were produced. A well-preserved Apple I can fetch as much as $12,000 today, sometimes more. An Apple I signed by Jobs and Wozniak sold for $22,000 at a fund-raiser auction for the Computer Museum several months ago, Bell said. That kind of appreciation has attracted the attention of even non-techie collectors. "I got a call from an investment advisor for a Wall Street banker," Bell said. "He asked: 'Should I get him into collecting old computers? Will they increase in value more than art?' I said, 'I don't know--I'm not a dealer.' " In fact, there aren't any prominent dealers of antique computers, at least not yet. But a few collectors are hoping to change that, including David Greelish, founder of the Historical Computer Society in Jacksonville, Fla. Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for bargains on the Internet. He uses search engines such as Yahoo to root out online classified ads for Altairs and other vintage machines, and he keeps an eye on alt.folklore.computers, a newsgroup where history buffs hang out. "Ultimately, I would like to see (the Historical Computer Society) grow and publish magazines and books," he said. "I'd like to start displaying our collection and even restoring computers for sale." Greelish and others said would-be collectors should look for machines that look clean, have all the original equipment and documentation and still run. A number of guidebooks are available, including Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm in Asheville, N.C., and "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. Experts urge caution, however. There's no guarantee that old computers will grow in value, and they are very difficult to maintain. "If you've never opened up your computer and looked inside, this is probably not the collectible for you," Bell said. Instead, experts say, this is a hobby better left to people who were enthralled by the recent PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds," people who still have a soft spot for monochrome terminals, "Chiclet" keyboards and the odd shapes of the early machines. But even among techies, there are plenty of people who scoff at this new fad, including Kim Nelson, service manager at ACP Superstore in Santa Ana. Founded 20 years ago, ACP is one of the oldest computer stores in Southern California, holds swap meets that attract legions of collectors, and might be one of the region's best unofficial museums. The store's top shelves are crammed with artifacts of computer history, although Nelson calls it junk. "Isn't it amazing that we have computer folklore now," he said, walking with a reporter along rows of vintage Commodores, Imsais and Tandys. "That's kind of sad when you think about it. Seems to me there are things that are a lot more important." But as he uttered those words, service technician John Krill walked by and surveyed the line of creaky machines. Almost against his will, Nelson was sucked into an episode of technology reverie. "Look at that Kaypro," Krill said. "That company grew so fast they were warehousing their inventory in tents." "Weren't they the ones that had the fire too?" asked Nelson, perking up just a bit and eager to demonstrate his techno-trivia prowess. The conversation drifted from machine to machine. "When I was in college, I would just leave my Osborne up in the library," Krill said with a laugh, recalling the immobility of the first portable computer. "The damned thing weighed 27 pounds. I didn't want to lug it around." Fifteen minutes passed before the two realized that their walk down memory lane might have strained the attention span of their guest. "That's enough, John," Nelson finally said with an embarrassed grin. "You're boring him." Greg Miller can be reached via e-mail at greg.miller atimes.com (BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX / INFOGRAPHIC) Computer Collectibles Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic techies: Model: Apple I Year introduced: 1976 Original price: $666 Current value: $10,000-$12,000 * Model: Mark-8 Year introduced: 1974 Original price: $250 Current value: $3,500-$4,000 * Model: Scelbi 8H Year introduced: 1973 Original price: $440 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Altair 8800 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $395 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Imsai 8080 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $440 Current value: $400-$600 * Model: Apple II Year introduced: 1977 Original price: $1,195 Current value: $200-$400 * Model: Osborne I Year introduced: 1981 Original price: $1,795 Current value: $200-$300 Descriptions: Apple I: With no monitor, no keyboard and no case, the Apple I was little more than a circuit board. Only a few hundred were produced. Mark-8: A kit computer that was the subject of the first magazine article describing how to build a computer. The article appeared in Radio Electronics Magazine in 1974. Scelbi: Predated the Altair and was the first computer based on a microprocessor advertised for sale. Only a small number was made. Altair 8800: Programmed by switches, the Altair 8800 had no keyboard, no monitor and just 256 bytes of memory. But it is widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer. The Altair, based on an Intel processor, started a craze when it appeared on the cover of Popular Electronics magazine in January 1975. Imsai 8080: Modeled on the Altair, the Imsai had several technological advances and a more polished look. Had no keyboard or monitor but was briefly the fastest-selling personal computer. Apple II: This is the machine that launched the company--and the personal computer industry. Apple II computers came with a keyboard, monitor and two disk drives. Most important, they ran VisiCalc, the original spreadsheet program that was the personal computer's "killer application." Osborne I: Considered the first portable computer, even though it weighed about 30 pounds and was the size of a suitcase. It had a 5-inch screen, two floppy disk drives and 64K of RAM. Sources: Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm, Asheville, N.C.; David Greelish, president, Historical Computer Society, Jacksonville, Fla.; "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. AL SCHABEN / Los Angeles Times > ---------- > From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 4:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and > Computers) > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > > Osborne-1s were > > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > > ha. Nice joke. > > > > This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking > to > > collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for > over > > $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not > an > > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). > > Ok, that would make sense. It seems that this has become some sort > of > urban legend, though -- I remember posts in afc like "I have an > Osborne-1. > Make me an offer about $5000." :-) > > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. > ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' > alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, > axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk >

28 years, 7 months

Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers )

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

| I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the | apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less | purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for | you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ | with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - | in 1988! Well... here are my thoughts: > > Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic > > techies: > > > > Model: Apple I > > Current value: $10,000-$12,000 > Unverified, the only high-dollar example I know of is the Computer Bowl auction unit. I know someone who actually has two Apple I's, and since I actually have more than one Altair, I'm trying to talk him into our becoming about the only two people with one of each. Wish me luck! > > Model: Mark-8 > > Current value: $3,500-$4,000 > Highly dubious, since I have never seen, and probably will never see, one of these for sale. Heck, it wasn't even a genuine production machine, it was mostly just instructions on how to build one from scratch. Who knows what it would even look like? Every one was different. Since most if not all of the period's TTL stuff is still available, you could build something today and call it a Mark 8. Most people looking for an Altair would say "A Mark what?" > > Model: Scelbi 8H > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > Why this should be lower priced than the Mark-8 considering that it came out earlier ('73 vs. '74, according to Byte), is beyond me. The same comment as for the Mark-8 applies. The Mark-8 and Scelbi are sort of like the guy who almost got credit for inventing the telephone. It's doubtful that history will ever be rewritten sufficiently for there to be a significant interest in these machines. Not that _I_ wouldn't buy one, mind you... not for these dollars of course, but for a goodly sum. > > > Model: Altair 8800 > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > This might actually be a bit low, considering the amount of 'Altair Fever' around today. You should see the number of 'Altair Wanted' posts on various sections of Usenet. Geez! Is it worth it? I'd say, sure it is! My dad's '57 fuelie 'Vette is just as primitive by today's standards, but just like the Altair, it looks fantastic and it's a piece of history. It darn well deserves its more-than-a-new-one price tag. Of course, my dad restored it himself, since he always wanted one when he was a kid... sure sounds like his son's relationship with antique computers! > > > Model: Imsai 8080 > > Current value: $400-$600 > This is accurate, perhaps a bit low as well. They're pretty rare (one less in circulation as of this weekend - thanks Tim!) > > > Model: Apple II > > Current value: $200-$400 > Well, we all know this is a joke. The highest price I've seen for a plain // is about $60. I'd probably pay $200+ for a pristine one in the original box with manuals, etc. but I don't think that's what they mean. Of course, I haven't been able to find a nice one myself, so... > > Model: Osborne I > > Current value: $200-$300 > Tough call. It's reasonably, but certainly not vanishingly, rare (I've owned three at various times) and I'm sure there are folks in the world that would pay this, but I generally see them going for around $100, and more like $15 at swap meets or thrift stores. Kai

28 years, 7 months

by dastar＠crl.com

I have an Atari 2600 carthridge question: I bought a couple at a swap meet that don't "boot" up. When I turn the unit on the screen either is black or has random vertical color bars on the screen. They are both Activision games. Any suggestions? I tried opening them but can't without ruining the label. I guess a working cart is worth more than a ruined label, but I'm hoping there's a better way if there is some way to fix them. Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. The point to such a silly game is that it will promote the preservation of old computers. It will get us out there finding these lost souls and keeping them safe for future generations. And believe me, there's nothing more gratifying then a good weekend out hunting for good old computers! (Well, there are at least a few things more gratifying :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 7 months

Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

| Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke. This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking to collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for over $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not an Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). An Apple I sold at the Computer Bowl charity auction (filled with billionaires) for that price, but even that doesn't mean that an Apple I is _worth_ $10K, just that someone made a nice charity donation in connection with one. Kai

28 years, 7 months

looking for

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in their collection that they'd love to sell me? -- Jim Strickland jim(a)calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_

28 years, 7 months

looking for

by marcw＠lightside.com

> I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in > their collection that they'd love to sell me? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim(a)calico.litterbox.com A few catalogues sell external SCSI cases in varying sizes. Not the cheapest things it seems. Sometimes more than PC tower cases. Anyhind Jameco (800-831-4242) and JDR Microdevices (800-538-5000) sell them. They all include power supplies. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw(a)lightside.com (finger at: marcw(a)mail.lightside.com) marc.williams(a)mb.fidonet.org

28 years, 7 months

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