18 Apr
1997
18 Apr
'97
5:10 p.m.
In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write:
Just a young man are you.
Last week I turned 53.
-Ron Mitchell
> >Is everyone else in their 20's and
30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20
> >this range?
>
I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week).
Lou 
19 Apr
19 Apr
2:40 a.m.
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:58 -0700, you wrote:
Last week I turned 53.
-Ron Mitchell
1944 was a very good year! 8-)
_______________
Barry Peterson bm_pete(a)ix.netcom.com
Husband to Diane, Father to Doug,
Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!!
(7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!)
6 a.m.
On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:58 -0700, you wrote:
Um, I don't want to rain on anyone's birthday, but there hasn't been a
whole lot of classic computer discussion going on this past week with
everyone sounding off about their age.
I recommend checking out Doug Coward's classic computer museum at:
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
He's got a nice diverse selection of old computers and stuff and a lot of
pictures. Some of the systems he has I have absolutely never heard of,
and they are just beautiful (it's nice being able to actually see them).
He also has little tidbits of history for some companies.
It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers.
I hope someday we can have conventions where we can get together to
discuss the preservation of the machines much like we are discussing in
this mailing list. We could have workshops on how to store data medium,
how to repair blown components on the motherboard, we could have trading
zones for people who need to get system software for the various
computers they have, and then their would be people
buying/selling/trading their old computers. Hmmm...this would be a cool
thing. Maybe when I have 26 hours in a day I will organize the first
one.
What do you all think?
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Last week I turned 53.
-Ron Mitchell
1944 was a very good year! 8-) 
20 Apr
20 Apr
12:46 p.m.
New subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers)
On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote:
[...]
I recommend checking out Doug Coward's classic
computer museum at:
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
He's got a nice diverse selection of old computers and stuff and a lot of
pictures. Some of the systems he has I have absolutely never heard of,
and they are just beautiful (it's nice being able to actually see them).
He also has little tidbits of history for some companies.
I second that motion. :-) Just been there and I liked it! It's a pity his
page can't be reached from most search engines (or is too new to have been
indexed yet). I wonder how many other such great pages there are...
It's cool that there are so many people interested
in classic computers.
I heard/read somewhere (can't remember my source, so shoot me) that
collecting computers is becoming some sort of mainstream hobby. Must have
been `Triumph of the Nerds'. An image of a complete luser utterly destroying
a PDP-8 in the process of `restoration' comes to mind. Hopefully most such
people can be convinced that these computers are useless since they don't
run Winblows 95, so they'll leave them alone. :-)
--------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. -------------------------------
Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88'
alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk
The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk
1:03 p.m.
New subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers)
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote:
This totally sucks in one respect because I've been into this since
before it became a "hobby", and it's always been relatively easy to get
sweet old computers for rock bottom prices because people were happy to
dump them off. Now that your typical dork who saw that show is going to
want to start collecting also, the prices for this junk is going to start
running up. It's going to became a fad, and soon it will become in vogue
for every geeky computer professional to "own a classic". Then the
yuppies will come in and try to snatch up all the really classic stuff
and use them as centerpieces in their living room.
Visitor: Gee, Tom, whatcha got there?
Tom: Its a Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11. I paid $10,000 for it
at an antique auction. I'm preserving a piece of computing history you know!
Visitor: Wow!
Tom: Want to see my Commodore collection?
At least I hope this doesn't become the case, because I do this because I
truly love the machines I collect and am truly fascinated by them and am
truly sincere about preserving them and keeping them alive. I think we
can all say that. But once it starts becoming mainstream then it becomes
a way for cheezy people at swap meets to command outrageous prices for
old computer junk. I already see it happening on AuctionWeb.
It's cool
that there are so many people interested in classic computers.
I heard/read somewhere (can't remember my source, so shoot me) that
collecting computers is becoming some sort of mainstream hobby. Must have
been `Triumph of the Nerds'. An image of a complete luser utterly destroying a PDP-8 in the process of `restoration' comes to
mind. Hopefully most such
people can be convinced that these computers are useless since they don't
run Winblows 95, so they'll leave them alone. :-)
One could only hope.
Visitor: So, how much RAM does this baby have?
Tom: Well, the guy I bought it from said 32"K", but I think he meant 32
"Megs".
Visitor: Yeah, how can you run Windows on 32K? He must've been wrong!
Tom: Yeah, totally. Now I wish I could figure out where to insert the CD
ROM. This big 8 inch slot doesn't seem to accept it very well.
On another note, I'm a total boob!
The "IBM PC/XT" I bought from a swap meet for $7 is not. The only thing
"IBM" about it is the full height floppy 5.25" drive. Other than that
its just a lame Taiwanese compatible. It even has DOS 5.0 on the hard
drive! Nothing classic about that. I was expecting 3.3 at the LATEST.
I did get an IBM XT keyboard with it that is IBM, but it doesn't work(!)
Oh well, live and learn. At least it works, but it wasn't even worth the
$7 I paid for it. Bleah.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
4:14 p.m.
New subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers)
Ah yes, but there IS one good thing about it.
We can wait and then seel those very same idiots something like
a commodore 64 for $5000 and laugh our asses off. (Not to
mention the fact that we'd have 5 more in the back room for
more idiots!)
Les
21 Apr
21 Apr
12:27 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers)
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote:
We can wait and then seel those very same idiots
something like
a commodore 64 for $5000 and laugh our asses off. (Not to
mention the fact that we'd have 5 more in the back room for
more idiots!)
Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were
supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke.
Mind you, they're somewhat uncommon in Europe. I've only seen one of them
at a flea market and I didn't buy it. But then again I probably didn't have
enough money (items at flea markets are priced in direct proportion to
bulk/weight, alas) and I wasn't even into collecting then (I was seriously
tempted to start, though!).
--------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. -------------------------------
Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88'
alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk
The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk
12:44 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers)
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote:
This totally sucks in one respect because I've
been into this since
before it became a "hobby", and it's always been relatively easy to get
sweet old computers for rock bottom prices because people were happy to
dump them off. Now that your typical dork who saw that show is going to
want to start collecting also, the prices for this junk is going to start
running up.
It all depends. No reason to panic until you see people ogling at your
newly-acquired IMSAI with a mad look in their eyes, reaching for their
wallets at the same time. :-)
There's no such thing as a market for old computers, hence no real
communication between the people who sell their old junk (sic) at garage
sales and such. Even if collecting becomes totally mainstream, with glossy
mags and tons of clubs and other such abominations, it'll take time before
prices start rising.
Visitor: Gee, Tom, whatcha got there?
Tom: Its a Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11. I paid $10,000 for it
at an antique auction. I'm preserving a piece of computing history you know!
Visitor: Wow!
Tom: Want to see my Commodore collection?
Argh! Mercy! Can't stop laughing! :-)
At least I hope this doesn't become the case,
because I do this because I
truly love the machines I collect and am truly fascinated by them and am
truly sincere about preserving them and keeping them alive. I think we
can all say that. But once it starts becoming mainstream then it becomes
a way for cheezy people at swap meets to command outrageous prices for
old computer junk. I already see it happening on AuctionWeb.
If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near
future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far,
we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting
tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. If mainstream Microsoft
droids start collecting, we'll have to rescue old hardware from THEIR
filthy claws as well.
I don't mind losing a machine to another collector -- and this has often
happened in the past. But I do mind losing it to someone who wants it for
the parts or for fun (aka disassembling it). Fear and loathing.
Visitor: So, how much RAM does this baby have?
Tom: Well, the guy I bought it from said 32"K", but I think he meant 32
"Megs".
Visitor: Yeah, how can you run Windows on 32K? He must've been wrong!
Tom: Yeah, totally. Now I wish I could figure out where to insert the CD
ROM. This big 8 inch slot doesn't seem to accept it very well.
Sam, this kind of ignorance is the stuff the world is made from. Granted,
the feelings it evokes range from amusement to rage, but it's still nothing
to worry about. There are always cretins. I'd start to worry when Tom above
decides to "maintain" his machine and ruins a possibly rare machine out of
ignorance.
--------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. -------------------------------
Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88'
alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk
The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk
1:23 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers)
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote:
It all depends. No reason to panic until you see
people ogling at your
newly-acquired IMSAI with a mad look in their eyes, reaching for their
wallets at the same time. :-)
It's when you see that mad look in their eyes and they're reaching for
their guns...
--
Ward Griffiths
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"]
7:01 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it
will, not in the very near
future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far,
we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting
tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump.
I would like to point out that this attitude towards scrap dealers is
really unproductive to our efforts. I have noticed it several places on
this list.
Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! Some of my best goodies
have come straight out the junkyard. The secret is to get to know the
people doing the scrapping - some of them will turn out to be fine, just
uninformed. True, some are jerks that would stab their brother in the
back just to get a good deal, but most are simply out to make a good
living, being their own boss.
To them, the old minis are resources of gold, some chips, some aluminum
and tantalum, and misc. dirty metal. Most do not know that there are
people that cherish and collect the old gear. They are simply interested
in what they will get out of it, relative to what they put into it. If
you offer to buy a piece for what they will get for it from the
metal merchants and refineries, chances are that they will jump at the
opprotunity to do less work.
Go to the junkyards and state your intentions. Tell them what you are
looking for and leave a card or two. Talk to the owners - most have very
interesting tales to tell.
This has worked for me quite a few times, although only for a classic
computer once (remember, I am quite new to this game). I purchased my Sun
4/280 server (with an old 3/280 processor card as well) cheap, after
telling the guy that I am always looking for interesting old machines. At
another junkyard, I have pulled many interesting bits (vintage radio and
radar things - see, someone does collect search radars!) at scrap prices.
The owner kept them from the scrap heaps because he now knows what they
are. If he was never told about the interest people have in the stuff, it
would be on a slow boat to China by now, and not in personal collections
and museums.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
9:17 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote:
Yeah, the Lawrence Livermore Labs here in California phased out their CRAY
I a couple years back and the high bidder was a scrap dealer who bought it
for...I forget how much. Either it was $10,000 or he expected to get
$10,000 out of the metals in it. At any rate, reading his quote in the
paper about what he would get after melting it down got me incensed.
If it does
become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near
future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far,
we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting
tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump.
I would like to point out that this attitude towards scrap dealers is
really unproductive to our efforts. I have noticed it several places on
this list.
Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! Some of my best goodies
have come straight out the junkyard. The secret is to get to know the
people doing the scrapping - some of them will turn out to be fine, just
uninformed. True, some are jerks that would stab their brother in the
back just to get a good deal, but most are simply out to make a good
living, being their own boss.
To them, the old minis are resources of gold, some chips, some aluminum
and tantalum, and misc. dirty metal. Most do not know that there are
people that cherish and collect the old gear. They are simply interested
Good point. I never thought to go to the scrap dealers and get a
relationship going. This is a terrific idea! I think I'll start
scouting them out this weekend.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
9:37 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
Speaking of CRAY 1s, I remember the most powerful computer I ever saw until
I graduated from college was the Cray 1 at the National Center for Atmospheric
Research. So, trivia fans, does anyone know what kind of stats it generated
in MIPS/FLOPS? I'm curious to know how it stacks up against modern mini/micros.
It amazed me at the time though. It had an entire floor of a building full
of disks and printers that it kept busy.
Intel Paragon may be more powerful, but the one I saw was just nowhere near
as impressive, even with the leds showing you which processor was talking to
which other processor.
For that matter, does anyone know how much power a Cray 1 needs to run?
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)calico.litterbox.com
--
By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion.
Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes.
The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction!
By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion.
Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_
9:45 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
So, trivia fans, does anyone know what kind of stats
it generated
in MIPS/FLOPS?
I think 160 MFLOPS, if you kept the pipes filled. Still fast, but
not for its size/power consumption.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
9:40 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
Yeah, the Lawrence Livermore Labs here in California
phased out their CRAY
I a couple years back and the high bidder was a scrap dealer who bought it
for...I forget how much. Either it was $10,000 or he expected to get
$10,000 out of the metals in it. At any rate, reading his quote in the
paper about what he would get after melting it down got me incensed.
Those older Crays are loaded with good metal; most of the weight of the
machine (tons?) is from the slabs of copper the boards are mounted to.
Of course this means no Cray-1s will ever get into private hands, unless
someone wants to pay the price.
I do not think the newer Crays are nearly as valuable, but I could be
wrong.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
11:44 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote:
Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy!
[...]
Go to the junkyards and state your intentions. Tell
them what you are
looking for and leave a card or two. Talk to the owners - most have very
interesting tales to tell.
Agreed. But I never claimed the scrap dealers are the enemy! The *act* of
sending off machines to be converted to scrap metal is the "enemy". Besides
I don't see why we should treat anyone as the "enemy". We're trying to
rescue old hardware, not start a war. :-)
Unfortunately, I don't know any scrap dealers around here, so I can't put
your technique to the test. I'm content going to car boot sales weekly. At
an average of two machines per week, it's fine by me (I mainly collect
micros, so trips to scrap dealers may be an overkill).
--------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. -------------------------------
Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88'
alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk
The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk
22 Apr
22 Apr
6:30 a.m.
New subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!)
Unfortunately, I don't know any scrap dealers
around here, so I can't put
your technique to the test. I'm content going to car boot sales weekly. At
an average of two machines per week, it's fine by me (I mainly collect
micros, so trips to scrap dealers may be an overkill).
I do not know what your scrap men are like, and anyway, most do not deal
with home micros (old workstations, on the other hand, are starting to
show up in large numbers). I suppose junk yard surfing is better for
those into minis and such.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
9882
days inactive
9885
days old
15 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
alexios＠vennea.demon.co.uk -
bm_pete＠ix.netcom.com -
dastar＠crl.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
more＠camlaw.rutgers.edu -
ronaldm＠mars.ark.com -
william＠ans.net