- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by rdd＠smarty.smart.net

Greetings, Is anyone here familiar with modifying an IBM 4701-1 to do anything useful other than its intended purpose of connecting bank terminals to a mainframe? Given that it has a floppy drive (8"), memory and a CPU, and has the capability to load some sort of software, there must be some use for it, such as a dedicated controller of some sort. It came with some small Apricot displays but no keyboards. -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting.

26 years, 9 months

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What's the best RS-232 terminal?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Anybody have a favorite? Why? Vt340 (color! dual session via two serial ports) Vt1200 (Xterm LAT, TCPIP or DCE, multisession) Vt100 (still the best tube around) Vt320 (smaller Vt100!) vt220 (small) H19 (my first CRT, also supports 19.2k without xon/xoff) in that order. Experience and the fact that they have the commonality of VT52/VT100 capability. The Vt340 has color so that makes it somewhat special. The remainder I like for Network connectivity (vt1200), keyboard (vt100), Display (VT320) orsize (vt320, 220). They all have printer ports and on screen programming. Allison

26 years, 9 months

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Fw: Another loaf of free stuff!

by peter.pachla＠wintermute.org.uk

Posting this on behalf of Matthew, please contact him directly if you're interested in any of this stuff. ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Saxby <saxby(a)vossnet.co.uk> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 11:08 PM Subject: Another loaf of free stuff! > Sorry, for those of us in the UK only. Just come and pick up from Slough, > Bucks, England. > > IBM AT > 6 CGA Cube type monitors for the AT > Plus, a load of RM 186 machines. > > > If they aren't collected by next Friday, then they will go in the skip... > So, > someone please take them. > > > --- > Matthew TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

26 years, 9 months

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Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N

by rdd＠smarty.smart.net

Greetings, While trying to make my Sun 4/110 bootable again, I ran into a slight problem with Seagate's web page: their documentation for older drives, such as the jumper info., is somewhat undecipherable for someone using UNIX... perhaps it's readable by MS-DOS/Windows systems, not sure. Can anyone kindly tell me which jumpers on the ST4766N and ST41200N drives are which? I think both are identical as far as jumpering for SCSI ID, etc. goes. At one time, I had this info., but have misplaced it, and need to change SCSI IDs and also get the drive to spin up by itself with no delay. BTW, can anyone tell me what format their web page us using to display the info? Does Microsoft windows use some sort of unusual ASCII? -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting.

26 years, 9 months

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"Solderpooling" (was Re: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment)

by mtapley＠swri.edu

Tony Duell wrote: > But I am >suggesting that _everyone_ here is intellegent enough to understand a >book on electrical wiring and then to do such wiring themselves. As a recent perpetrator of some particularly egregious stupidity (everyone *did* get their resistor color-codes straightened out after that, right?) I can claim that intelligence and the advisability of any single isolated act may not necessarily be corellated. (I can hope, anyway.) I therefore have a minor suggestion to make here. Call it "Solderpooling". Anyone intent on reworking mains power, moving full-height racks, or otherwise dealing with lethal quantities of energy, at least for the first time, put out an announcement and invitation here. If there is another local list member, arrange a visit for the duration of the risky part. We tend to do this for moving big stuff anyway, but I'm proposing it also for rewiring houses, repairing monitors, gluing with sodium cyanide (!), etc. Two pairs of eyes looking at the same procedure are much more likely to catch errors than one, even if neither is a "trained professional" (or proficient amateur). Add to that the psychological desire to do things properly in front of a visitor vs. taking short-cuts by one's self and the liklihood of mistakes might really go down. There's also the pleasant prospect of a shared victory if whatever it is works and the unpleasant but comforting availability of someone to do CPR if it *really* doesn't work. - Mark

26 years, 9 months

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Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N

by lance＠costanzo.net

At 07:56 PM 10/09/1999 -0400, you wrote: >While trying to make my Sun 4/110 bootable again, I ran into a slight >problem with Seagate's web page: their documentation for older drives, >such as the jumper info., is somewhat undecipherable for someone using >UNIX... perhaps it's readable by MS-DOS/Windows systems, not sure. >Can anyone kindly tell me which jumpers on the ST4766N and ST41200N >drives are which? I think both are identical as far as jumpering for One of the best places to get drive info is http://www.thetechpage.com (formerly blue-planet.com) They just happen to have your drives listed! (Hey Stan - point the guy in the right direction and let him do the work!) Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance(a)costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees

26 years, 9 months

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ISA expansion boards/cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

The backplanes having more than 8 ISA slots tended to work badly, as a function of how full and how long they were. Notable exceptions are/were the 12-slot passive backplanes sold by at least one manufacturer, which managed to operate quite well. The key is that these were not on a motherboard and thereby allowed, among other things, placement of the main CPU close to the center of the backplane while the remaining cards were installed working inward from the ends. These things have always been ridiculously expensive due to the low volumes in which they're produced. There were a few expansion boxes built with a cable having a bus interface at each end, capable of converting the differential signals on the cable betwen them back to single-ended TTL levels. These didn't ever work particularly well, i.e. were very fussy about what was in the expansion chassis, as the bus timing was altered by the cable delays. I wouldn't expect such an item to be low-priced, though, just because of its relative rarity. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Adam Fritzler <mid(a)auk.cx> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:07 PM Subject: ISA expansion boards/cases > >Is there a good place to find boards that plug into a 16bit ISA slot and >let you have another 8 or so slots? (without building your own) > >I would think there'd be a fair number of these floating around now that >ISA is nearly dead in the mainstream, but aparently not. The >cheapest I saw one new for $496. Bit ridiculous, imho. > >All I need is both end-boards (host end and backplane end) and a >backplane. (I certainly don't need anymore cases...) > >Can anyone help? > >af > >--- > Adam Fritzler > { mid(a)auk.cx, afritz(a)iname.com} > http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ > "Something in my systray is blinking wildly." -- DS >

26 years, 9 months

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PDP-11 DOS/BATCH Question

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Much to my surprise I was contacted by someone still maintaining several >PDP-11/55's running DOS/BATCH. Yes, I know I shouldn't have been >surprised, just never heard of anyone actually running it. Anyway, does >anyone know of a way, or have a program to transfer data between the PDP-11 >and a laptop? I'm not aware of a DOS/BATCH version of Kermit, which was my >first thought. Which way does the data have to flow? If from the -11 to the PC, and the data is all simple ASCII, you can just send it out the serial port without any flow control or error detection/correction. If it's anything more complicated, I just boot RT-11 and use FILEX (aka COPY/DOS) to move information back and forth to the DOS-11 packs/tapes, then I use Kermit-RT or TCP/IP on the RT-11 system for data transfer. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 9 months

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Pictures from VCF 3.0

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Some pictures from VCF 3.0.\ http://members.xoom.com/icwhen/shows/vcf/1999/ Official VCF pictures will be posted to the VCF website wthin a week or so. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org

26 years, 9 months

1
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OMTI 25011 programmers docs?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

For those who have not heard of this particular recent project, I'm trying to disassemble the 2K controller ROM in a Commodore D9060 IEEE-4888 hard disk. Inside the box are a C= board with two 6502s, shared RAM, an IEEE interface and a SASI interface. The drive mechanism is a Tandon TM602S (5Mb, D9060) or TM603S (7.5M, D9090). In between is an OMTI 25011 SASI host adapter. I'm attempting to understand the ROMs enough to either change the drive geometry to something like an ST-225 (since they are so plentiful) or to complete the code on the "DOS board", as it's called, to issue SCSI-1 commands and drive an old 40Mb-200Mb drive at the limit of the Commodore DOS 3.0 physical size (~16Mb, IIRC). To that end, an understanding of the OMTI would be essential. Does anyone out there have docs? I have (badly blurred) copies of the schematics, but no software info. I particularly need to know reads, writes, sense packets and formatting packets as the OMTI implements them. Most important is to learn how reduced write current and write precomp cylinders are set. If it's a command, then that's easy to change. If the OMTI makes assumptions, then it's not so easy. I now know where in the code the drive geometry is set; I just don't know how to affect RWC and precomp, even if I do patch the number of heads and cylinders. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 9 months

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Removing PSU from CDC 9766 drive

by rdd＠smarty.smart.net

Since it appears no one can rescue the CDC 9766 drives, I've begun stripping some bits from one of them (removed one board set already) and am preparing to remove the PSU during lunch or my next break. Now then, as time may be in somewhat short supply, can anyone give kindly me any hints for the easiest way to do this? Noticing the screws in the side of the slide-out rack, I'm wondering if removing the two screws on each side will remove it. There also appears to be an air-hose (used to cool the PSU?) that will have to come off. Is there some way to eaasily just disconnect the sliding mechanism without removing the screws? It also looks as though there's some sort of braided wire (wires?) going into the PSU with no connector that can be disconencted... blast... the one thing I've misplaced was my wirecutters, which I, hopefully, won't need. Any other suggestions for removing any other easily removeable bits (heads, motor?)? How do I lift the lid on this drive to access the front panel switches to remove the switches and light-bulbs? (sorry for the unhackish question, but time's a bit short). -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting.

26 years, 9 months

5
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PDP-11 DOS/BATCH Question

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Much to my surprise I was contacted by someone still maintaining several PDP-11/55's running DOS/BATCH. Yes, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, just never heard of anyone actually running it. Anyway, does anyone know of a way, or have a program to transfer data between the PDP-11 and a laptop? I'm not aware of a DOS/BATCH version of Kermit, which was my first thought. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 9 months

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Here's another find...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Mark game me this board because he didn't know what it was, and he wasn't >interested in it. If it is what I think it is, it's probably pretty rare. >It has 4 large Xlinx chips on it, a smaller Xlinx chip, a MC68020, and a lot >of glue logic. It's made by Micro Technology, Inc, copyrighted 1990, and the >sticker reads "CIQBA +". The only connector coming off the board is a small >10-pin connector like the one on a DLV11J. It looks like it's a Q-Bus >CI (Computer Interconnect) board, Is this right? Yes, it is. > Anyone have more info >on this? Web search turned up nothing useful... Simply put, you plug the board into your Q-bus VAX, cable it to your HSC/HSD/HSZ/star coupler, install MTI's PQDRIVER, set up the MTI and VAXCLUSTER license PAKs, and you're on the air! If you don't have a HSC/HSD/HSZ/star coupler, you don't have much need for the CIQBA, do you? :-) Tim.

26 years, 9 months

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Have any info?

by charlesII＠nwonline.net

Attached is a zip compressed file of photos of the machine in question in *.pdf format. Any info will be appreciated. Charles

26 years, 9 months

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TS03 tape drive and FLIP CHIP interface

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

I have a TS)3 and a long 19" dual width interface backplane filled with flip chip modules. I know nothing about it other than I got it 10 years ago in mint condition. #1) Is it Unibus or Omnibus or ???? #2) Any idea how to hook it up.. (there are a few slots free at the end of the plane obviously for cables). Any help would be appreciated as I have been waiting for docs for the last 10 years.

26 years, 9 months

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Have any info?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: Charles Oblender <charlesII(a)nwonline.net> <To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washingto <Subject: Have any info? **** LARGE SNIPPAGE... That was really an ill informed thing to do. I just got (likely the rest of the list too) a 313kb file! Or better said you spammed the group. Not all of us have the ability to view it or the patience to download it! I'd suggest next time finding a web page to post it too next time rather than filling everyones disks. Allison

26 years, 9 months

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SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 8, 8:46, John Foust wrote: > > I paid just short of $200.00 for one on eBay about six months ago. I'm > glad > >it's paid for itself. > > At first I thought you were pulling my leg. Maybe you are. > Then I searched eBay. Well, maybe my reaction was a little OTT, but some of these things are fairly hard to come by. I'd like the Hardware Handbook for it's content, but I know others collect things like CDs and T-shirts for other reasons. Most such things arn't all that hard to find, though, unless you're looking for a particular item to complete a "set". I guess now Acorn Copmputers has been broken up, I could sell all those teddy bears and sweatshirts to pay for things I really want:-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 9 months

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ENIAC

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Right now in Oregon, USA OPBS is broadcasting a program called Technation on ENIAC. 91.5 FM 550 AM Oregon Look for it in your own area. Paxton

26 years, 9 months

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RH10 and DF10 docs needed...

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Does anyone here have docs for either the RH10 Massbus interface, or the DF10 data channel? I'm trying to wing it from the ITS/TOPS-10 source, and it's being more confusing than anything. Scanned docs would be really nice ^_^ -------

26 years, 9 months

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Pinout needed

by af-list＠lafleur.wfi-inc.com

Does anyone happen to have the pinout for the Atari 825 printer handy? It's the edge connector... Cheers, Aaron

26 years, 9 months

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pdp 8/e

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Well, the pdp8/e power sord was cut off, but there is a 2 foot long hunk of wire. I suppose I'll just wire up a power connector, and they use a good quality extension cable (someday). No rush on that... The core memory planes were removed, of course. Looks like there were at least 3 sets of core in this at one time. The foam along the side of the case has pretty much vaporized and is all over the bus connectors. Whats the general consensus (yeah right, on THIS mailing list i was a consensus...) about removing versis replacing that foam? And one front panel switch is gone, and another is present but broken. The rest at least appear to click up/down properly. Boards that were in my PDP8/e when I recieved it =============================================== M8330 M837 M8655 M8360 M8350 VG DS (dont know the number) M8655 M840 M849 M8310 Loose M8300 Loose G111 Loose. 2 of these G233 Loose. 3 of these (too bad they didnt leave the core planes) M935 2 of these, to connect the second bus VG DS 505 VG DS 102 VG DS 101 VG DS 504 M8320 M847 YH Bootstrap Loader (32 words implemented via an array of diodes)

26 years, 9 months

9
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CDC 9766 drives - need rescuing, MD, BWI area

by rdd＠smarty.smart.net

Greetings, There are four CDC 9766 disk-pack drives in need of rescue in the BWI Airport area in Maryland... I'm not sure how long they'll be available... hours or days, but if anyone's interested I think they can be had for whatever the scrap buyer's going to pay, which probably isn't very much. As more details become available, I'll post them. Until recently, these drives were working and in service, as far as I know. While I'd love to collect these drives, I don't have room for them at this time; for those who aren't familiar with them, they're rather large and heavy; bigger than the DEC disk pack drives I've seen. You'll need a large, U-haul type truck to move them. There's no loading platform, so getting them up the ramp without a lift or winch won't be easy (not something I'd want to attempt). If no one can save them, I'll see what I can extract and save from their insides. -- R. D. Davis rdd(a)perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting.

26 years, 9 months

5
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Site update and Compaq 486

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

>Just to legitmise this email with some semi-Classic discussion, how much >would the base unit of Compaq 486/33m with 8Mb be worth now? A friend is >interested in buying and I was thinking of a price around ?20. Is this >reasonable? Remember that this is the base unit ONLY, it doesn't have a >keyboard, CD-ROM, or monitor. I found mine in a dumpster. I think it's collectible as an early example (perhaps the first?) of EISA. The ram is probably on-board the CPU card, so the only component with any commercial value would be the hard drive. Hans

26 years, 9 months

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SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

Hi, John. On Oct 7, 12:53, John Foust wrote: > Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available > > I've got two of these available at no charge to anyone who wants them. > They describe the pin-outs, etc. of the internal and external connectors > of the SGI line from the 4D through the rest of the line up to about 1995. > They're about an inch thick, spiral-bound. My goodness, I'd *kill* for one of those! I've been wanting to build a board for an Indy for ages (I could do it for an R3000 Indogo instead, though, if the book doesn't go that "new")... The only problem is, I'm in the UK. Could you send one if I sent you a few dollar bills to cover US Postal Service "Global Priority Flat Rate Envelope"? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 9 months

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SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available

by fauradon＠mn.mediaone.net

Maybe you could offer them here first. Francois >Not only that, I have rare Amiga t-shirts - the first Amiga >wake party t-shirt, baseball caps, sweat shirts, NewTek shirts. >Sheesh. Off to the basement. > >- John > >

26 years, 9 months

1
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DEC Edge Connectors

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- John Honniball <John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk> wrote: > Well, I went from Bristol, UK to Dayton, Ohio (via Boston) > in order to visit a junk emporium and buy: > > NIXIE TUBES!!!! Mendelssons? (They are 90 minutes from my house ;-) -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 9 months

1
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VCF 3.0 Exhibitor Award Winners

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

I wanted the winners of the first VCF Computer Faire to be recognized, so here is the list. I plan to put up a web page listing the winners along with a photo of each exhibitor in front of their exhibit. I hope to have it up within a couple weeks. Note to any exhibitors reading this: we'll be getting ribbons for all 2nd and 3rd place winners, as well as the 1st place winners who didn't get a ribbon (because we ran out :) We at the VCF felt everyone who placed should get recognition for putting in the effort to help make the exhibit the success it was. I'll be contacting all exhibitors by e-mail to get your address in about a week or so. The exhibits were fantastic! I hope more people will participate next year. CLASS AWARDS Class Home-brew, kit, or educational - Any vintage ================================================== Best in Class #10 Heathkit Educational Robots Jim Willing 2nd in Class #6 Single Plywood Computer Dwight Elvey 3rd in Class #3 Conway's Game of Life Dave Dameron Manufatured Microcomputer - Pre 1981 ==================================== Best in Class #4 IBM 5100 Model B2 Wayne Smith 2nd in Class #9 Altair 8800 TimeShared BASIC Jim Willing 3rd in Class #29 Atari 800 Larry Anderson Manufactured Microcomputer - Post 1981 ====================================== Best in Class #13 East German Computers Hans Franke 2nd in Class #40 The Complete Canon Cat John Bumgarner 3rd in Class #28 Northstar Advantage Shawn Neely Mini-Computer or larger system - Any vintage ============================================ Best in Class #26 DEC GT40 Eric Smith 2nd in Class #24 PDP-8/E running FOCAL-8 Chuck McManis 3rd in Class #39 The AT&T 3B2-300 Desktop Powerhouse Richard Harrington Other ===== Best in Class #14 Realtime Software Bench Testing Michael Kan 2nd in Class #19 Marchant ACR8M Calculator (Calculator Exhibit) Derek Peschel 3rd in Class #32 Analog Computers of the 1960s Douglas Coward SPECIAL AWARDS Best Presentation ================= Research #13 East German Computers Hans Franke Completeness #4 IBM 5100 Model B2 Wayne Smith Display #35 The IMSAI Dollhouse Todd Fisher Creative Integration with Contemporary Technology #33 Relay Electromechanical Computer David Witherell Best Preservation ================= Original Condition #37 Evolution of the Macintosh Paul Zurakowski Restoration #24 PDP-8/E running FOCAL-8 Chuck McManis Recreation #12 MUNIAC John Zabolitzky Simulation #7 CMOS uP & Homebrew Forth Tom Belpasso Obscurity #3 Conway's Game of Life Dave Dameron Best Technology =============== Analog #32 Analog Computers of the 1960s Douglas Coward Non-Electronic #19 Marchant ACR8M Calculator (Calculator Exhibit) Derek Peschel People's Choice =============== #37 Evolution of the Macintosh Paul Zurakowski BEST OF SHOW #13 East German Computers Hans Franke Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org

26 years, 9 months

1
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SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 7, 22:44, Pete Turnbull wrote: ...a message he should have sent to the original author, not the list. Apologies for the noise. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 9 months

1
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SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I've got two of these available at no charge to anyone who wants them. They describe the pin-outs, etc. of the internal and external connectors of the SGI line from the 4D through the rest of the line up to about 1995. They're about an inch thick, spiral-bound. - John

26 years, 9 months

2
1
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Mostek MK4027N

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> wrote: > Does anyone know how many memory bits are in a Mostek MK4027N? Its > also labelled S7748A. > > I'm guessing its either 4K x 1, or 16K x 1, which would mean the > pdp8/a memory board I have is either the 32K or 128K model. AFAIK, it's 4Kx1. The 128K board is hex-wide because it uses the fifth edge for extra address bits (along with the KT8A for control). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 9 months

1
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Mostek MK4027N

by edick＠idcomm.com

The MK4027 is a 4K-bit DRAM organized as 4Kx1. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: Mostek MK4027N >Does anyone know how many memory bits are in a Mostek MK4027N? Its >also labelled S7748A. > >I'm guessing its either 4K x 1, or 16K x 1, which would mean the >pdp8/a memory board I have is either the 32K or 128K model. I suppose >it could be 2K x 1 as well (there are only 3 ram sizes for this >board). > >-Lawrence LeMay >

26 years, 9 months

1
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Mostek MK4027N

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

Does anyone know how many memory bits are in a Mostek MK4027N? Its also labelled S7748A. I'm guessing its either 4K x 1, or 16K x 1, which would mean the pdp8/a memory board I have is either the 32K or 128K model. I suppose it could be 2K x 1 as well (there are only 3 ram sizes for this board). -Lawrence LeMay

26 years, 9 months

2
1
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S-100 Bus

by edick＠idcomm.com

Your comments are interesting and probably correct, but I think you've missed the point. What I wanted to address is the problem of deciding which features to put into a tool and which ones to leave out. The issue of host speed is interesting, except that it really doesn't matter whether it can emulate the S-100 system's processor at 15 times its normal rate or 2500 times its normal rate. The interface is bandwidth limited by design to 2 MHz updates. I've contemplated a FIFO of some sort, but since the S-100 can be operated in bursts or in loops at an arbitrarily high speed anyway, I doubt there's a need for a FIFO. What boards there were or are isn't really relevant, since the target is to produce a useful tool. Pointing out the weaknesses, which, after all this time are either forgotten by or known to all of us, of one tool or another, won't help. What I'm addressing is using TODAY's technology to facilitate testing and verification of the S-100 bus. We're free to assume that the width of various signals can be adjusted in 10 ns increments just to determine what might work the best, even if the CPU can't really generate that waveform, and we're free to try solutions to the S-100's 7 equations in 4 unknowns, not only as a linear programming problem, but with discrete attempts with each possible solution, even though our CPU doesn't play that way, just to find out what really is wrong. This stuff is, in some cases, over 20 years old. Digital circuit design has evolved considerably since the '70's and, as it happens, much of what was sold on the S-100 market really didn't work, not because it was designed back in the '70's, but because it was designed badly. Some of it worked, "sorta," when in combination with specific other components (boards) but others didn't really work reliably, (e.g. survive a 1k-hour test/burn-in) under any circumstances. Unfortunately, sometimes the very circuits we wanted to use were in this category and wouldn't work with OUR hardware, even though it seemed to work fine with THEIRs at the store/trade-show-whatever, where we first saw it. What I would do if now were then is try a board in my existing test system to see if it caught fire or did something equally irksome. If it worked, I'd smile and proceed, and if it didn't, I'd attempt to find out why. If the board is claimed to be IEEE-STD-696 compliant, I'd try driving it with a '696-compatible set of signals to see if it behaved as expected. If yes, then I'd have CPU issues to resolve, not "new-board" ones. The tool I've essentially proposed enables you to do that without having to buy '696-compliant boards, since you can't readily pick up the phone and order them. It will, however, support you in an effort to whittle at each of the boards you want to use in order to make them work and play well with the others you wish to use, regardless how recalcitrant. Features I've already built in include the abilities you mentioned, examine and deposit memory content, easily extended, by the way to ensuring that the memory works consistently, stop the processor, single-step through execution of a program or cycle, jam an instruction onto the bus during an instruction fetch, etc. What's more, it can do this without a CPU in the system, or, assuming the CPU can do this, it can float the CPU and do "correctly" what you think the CPU is doing incorrectly just to ensure the fault is on the board you think it is. Anyway, people who've had the experience of bringing up a dead multi-board system in which the various manufacturers had no convention as to defaults or operating modes, in which it was a given that three or five boards, though all functional could and usually did yield a system which did nothing until the incompatibilities were ironed out, and in which there were no guarantees that ALL the components would work together at all, would have a really good idea of what features a generalized emulation/troubleshooting tool like this one should have. Resurrecting a 20-year old S-100 is VERY different from bringing up an old PDP-8. In the latter case, the bus standards were set by DEC, who knew what they wanted to put out there. In the S-100, boards were often designed by people with incorrect and/or incomplete information about what had to be on the bus in order for it to work correctly. They were virtually always designed with incomplete information about how other mfg's boards behaved on the bus. What's more, that behavior was likely to change, depending on how the CPU or other bus masters behaved. Since it's difficult to get detailed information about how a board you just bought at the flea-market works, you have to figure that out for yourself. This is a tool for doing that. It won't do it automatically but it will help you. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:03 AM Subject: Re: S-100 Bus >> on the MULTIBUS-I. The only case in which I've used a front panel has been >> the one MULTIBUS-user-client I had once whose SW types thought it would >> help. I doubt that it did, but it was a fun job! > >All the multibus bring ups were done using CPUs like intel 80/20 or >national BLC204, even if the bus was a mess you could run with these >as ram/rom/io on board were alive. > >> I agree, except that I belive that your PC-compatible would make an even >> better FP substitute, with its nearly 1 GHz processor, 1GB of RAM and > >Not to say it can't. The SBC880 was a z80/serial/parallel/rom/ram on one >card and more of less had those function isolated from the bus. This >allowed severly crunched bus to be driven while having the luxuray of a >real cpu and terminal interface. I used my own debug monitor in Eprom. >The key is I still have it, and I used it from the early 80s on. > >For board level debug the explorer 8085 <netronics> was good as s100 was >the 'add on bus" so if the card was not running you could >drive/interrogate it. > >> several 3-doz-GB HDD's. Moreover, since it can not only load programs and >> monitor their execution, clock-tick-by-clock-tick, and disassemble >> unfamiliar code in real time, generally waiting for the resident processor >> to catch up, it has potential not yet exploited. You can use it for logic >> analysis, signature analysis/failure detection, code verification, >> profiling, etc. It's just another tool, but if it can be sold for less than >> IMSAI's FP, then it's not only an improved tool, but less costly, too. >> Since you can repetitively stimulate the S-100 in a short loop, you can >> easily address signal quality issues previous too slippery for most folks. >> You can look over the processor's shoulder or you can take him out of the >> loop and run things yourself. When you've narrowed the problem you have >> down to a small set of signals, you can poke around with your 'scope to see >> that all's as it should be. > >A s100 card with z80, io and enough ram and rom to run is a trivial board >and was cheap even in the early 80s. Using todays parts 64k of eprom, >64k (or more) of banked ram and other things would be not only simpler but >cheaper too! > >The PC approach depends on the processor having lots of speed. What if >all you have for this kind of task is a 486dx/33 or maybe an old P133? >Not evey one is invested in PCs to the ears. FYI: my hottest PC is for on >line use and not for adding cards like that and it's only a P166 with >about 2.1gb. The only systems I have with an abundance of loose storage >are VAXen. > >> I never used a front panel until I was asked to build one for a >> multi-processor system on a VERY extended Multibus-I. That was fun and >> profitable, but wholly unnecessary, I felt, since all the processor boards >> were completely self-sufficient with the exception of mass storage, and >> since the CP/M image was in ROM, it didn't take long to boot, either. > >I started with PDP-8s, 10s then a CM2100 and firs micro was ALTAIR. FP >were ok for some thing where seeing state was nice. I used it more to mod >software that had IO that didn't match mine. It was the easiest way to >see what addresses it was looping at. > >> I've normally addressed lightning damage with a call to the insurance >> company, though they usually don't respond promptly. The procedure for >> socketed boards is to take the parts out and test them in a tester. Most >> prom programmers can do that. > >There were two proms in the entire system, 488 2102s, and lots of '367s, >241s, and '244s. Not to mention the fried terminal and printer. In 1979 a >logic tester for would have cost several times the system. Now, I'd toss >the MB <PC> and start fresh. > >> I really don't see how a logic probe can help you until you've narrowed the >> problem down to a single board. What's more, it's common enough to have >> several boards which work correctly in a system that doesn't. Sometimes >> they just don't work and play well with others. CompuPro boards were famous >> for this. They often wouldn't work with other boards from CompuPro. They >> weren't alone in this, but their idea of interoperability was that MOST of >> the boards in a system which they sold would work together. Their excellent >> marketing and advertising made them the main force behind adoption of a >> standard too weak to work, and too vague to provide guidance. They, more >> than any other maker of S-100 stuff ignored whatever parts of the standard >> that it suited them to ignore, and they weren't alone. The problems of this >> sort are exactly the sort I'd seek to address with a bus probe. What's >> more, there are few tools which will automatically allow you to find >> inadvertent connections between signals, say, because of a mis-jumpered >> board, or such, or to find that what one board maker uses for signal is GND >> to another. > >S100 was nice in one respect you could strip the bus and plug in pboard >until it broke. > >Allison > >

26 years, 9 months

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Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) (fwd)

by af-list＠lafleur.wfi-inc.com

I guess my types of experiences fall into the categories of electric shock, muscle strains, smashed body parts, poison, and loss of sleep. I am not too bright. And I think of myself as sort of a tough, rugged, manly-man type of guy most of the time (hangover from playing rugby, I guess). Anyway, I have moved some things that should have required 3 or 4 people by myself (eg refrigerators, pool tables, etc) and really injured my back moving a Cipher 880 9-track drive a year or so ago. Agony! Not to mention being virtually useless for more than two weeks and having to go to physical therapy. I'm also generally too careless with electricity. I have been zapped by stupidly reaching into things and touching capacitors so bad that I've actually almost lost consciousness a few times. Now that I have a family I *try* to be more careful, but old habits die hard. I've broken a couple of fingers and toes by dropping things on them; it's amazing how much damage the hard, steel edge of a cabinet can do from just a few inches. My poison episodes have been dandies! The most recent was that black widow bite I posted about recently. The other was a *large* hp printer boxed in a wooden crate (recent model, 5si/mx with paper sorter, etc). When I removed it, I noticed that it was covered with some oily liquid. Completely dismissing this as somthing inert, I spend several hours working on it; sticking my head inside the cabinet, running my hands on it, eventually ending up with that oily liquid all over my hands, face, head, and I'm sure some was ingested from my hands/lips. Then I got sick. REALLY sick. Sick, like I wanted to die sick. It turns out that the guy who send it had sprayed poison into the crate to kill the wasps that had taken it over and neglected to tell us... Aaron On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi, > > >....This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection > >though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while > >lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. > >One of the hazards of the old computer collector... > > Quite, I've managed to injure myself a number of times shifting medium/large > sized machines over the years. > > I trapped a nerve in my back both times I shifted my old PDP-11/23+ (in an > H960 cab with a pair of RL-01s). And please, believe me, shifting a PDP-11/34 > by yourself is NOT a good idea....my back muscles still wince at the thought. > > Also managed to strain a couple of back muscles when I moved my SGI 4D/70GT > into the house. There were two of us moving that beastie and we'd taken all > the boards out of it first (they're about the weight of my 11/53 on their > own). > > > Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in > my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space > Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > > Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | > peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | > peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk > -- > >

26 years, 9 months

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SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I just tried to answer a question from someone on the Greenkeys mailing list, regarding interfacing an ASR-33 to RS-232. My answer is below. I hope I got it right. - John At 11:30 AM 10/7/99 -0400, Barry Hall wrote: >Hello John and Christian, > > I was referred to you by Don Robert regarding connecting an ASR 33 to a >Microcomputer RS232 Serial COM port. Any help you can give me would be greatly >appreciated. The ASR-33 usually has what's referred to as a "20 milliamp current loop" interface. It's not RS-232. You can buy converter boxes from places like <http://www.blackbox.com/>, like the one at <http://catalog.blackbox.com/blackbox/templates/blackbox/class13itemgroup598 guest.asp?param=95&ig_id=598&title=High%2DSpeed+RS%2D232%26lt%3B%26gt%3BCurr ent%2DLoop+Interface+Converter&related=>. There's an explanation at <http://telebyteusa.com/catalog/appnotes/a65a.htm>, <http://www.mouse.demon.nl/ckp/serial/cl.htm>, <http://telecom.tbi.net/data-if.html> and <http://www.bb-elec.com/techlibr.asp>. I'm sure someone has a web page with a homebrew conversion between current loop and RS-232. The voltage levels and swings aren't the same, so it's not just a matter of wiring. The circuit at <http://www.ibhsoftec.de/english/screenshots/current_loop_converter.html> might be right. - John

26 years, 9 months

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Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> The only safe way is to use a transformer that is correctly wired. US mains is > 120 - neutral - 120. which gives 240 between the 2 hots. European mains are > 240 - neutral. Both expect the neutral to be at / near ground potential. If > you wire it to US 240 directly what was neutral in Europe will be at 120v. I > have several isolation / step up transformers that I routinely use to accomplish > this. You need to be careful how they are wired in order to have both primary > and secondary tied correctly to neutral and the grounds MUST be kept separate > from the neutral to meet US electrical code. In Europe, many outlets (German ones spring to mind) are mechanically symmetrical with respect to swapping hot ("Live") and Neutral pins, and AFAIK all equipment has to be able to operate whichever side of the input is earthy (=close to ground potential). I would have no qualms at all about running European equipment of 120 - 0 - 120, although for travel I have made my own autotransformer from a 100VA split-primary mains transformer. Some old (before about 1960) equipment bonds neutral to equipment chassis. This is of course dangerous to run except with the correct side earthy. I have heard rumours of German equipment with a neon between chassis and earth that lights up if you get this wrong! When wiring a step-up transformer: Single winding (autotransformer) should have neutral one end, 120V in the middle and you get 240V out of the other end. Ground (earth) goes straight through without connecting to the windings. Dual winding (isolating transformer) Input across Neutral and 120V - output gives you 240V. Bond one side of the output to Ground, NOT neutral, and this becomes the new neutral [*]. This ensures that a fault to the chassis is guaranteed to trip earth leakage protection downstream of the isolation transformer (which I doubt you have) but not upstream of it. This is much safer if (for example) hot and neutral are reversed on the input. (Note: if you wire one side of the output to neutral, you have something no worse than the autotransformer.) I don't know whether this latter meets the US electrical code, but it is correct :-) As regards strange sockets, I don't imagine 3-phase would be at all likely in a US domestic installation, but 220V happens occasionally. The usual plug is just like the standard US 3-pin plug, but with the two flat pins at 90 degrees to their familiar position. This can roughly be represented in ascii-art thus: o o 120V _ _ 220V | | DEC used it on a lot of their European equipment... Philip [*] For full isolation, don't link ground on the two sides of the transformer. Link chassis etc. on the output to the virtual ground terminal that's bonded to the supply rail you've chosen as neutral. This means that you have to touch both a hot wire _and_ the chassis befor it will zap you. For some testing, don't bond at all - you can't detect a fault to chassis, but you need a fault _and_ to touch the wrong wire before you get a shock... Some more ascii-art, for the record. Autotransformer: ________ 240 C C 120 ____C C C N ______C_______ N Isolating Transformer wired as Autotransformer: _____ 240 ||C ||C 120 _____||C C||C C||C N ______C||C____ N |____| Isolating transformer: _____ 240 ||C ||C 120 _____||C C||C C||C N ______C||C____ N - Bond this to earth and/or chassis as necessary ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 9 months

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Current Loop Converter

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

ftp://ftp.bb-elec.com/bb-elec/literature/232pclin.pdf This is the full schematic of an industrial one. I built one with two transistors years ago.. I will dig up my design and post it (used it on a DG-116) -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available > >I just tried to answer a question from someone on the Greenkeys >mailing list, regarding interfacing an ASR-33 to RS-232. My answer >is below. I hope I got it right. > >- John > >At 11:30 AM 10/7/99 -0400, Barry Hall wrote: >>Hello John and Christian, >> >> I was referred to you by Don Robert regarding connecting an ASR 33 to a >>Microcomputer RS232 Serial COM port. Any help you can give me would be >greatly >>appreciated. > >The ASR-33 usually has what's referred to as a "20 milliamp current loop" >interface. It's not RS-232. You can buy converter boxes from places >like <http://www.blackbox.com/>, like the one at ><http://catalog.blackbox.com/blackbox/templates/blackbox/class13itemgroup59 8 >guest.asp?param=95&ig_id=598&title=High%2DSpeed+RS%2D232%26lt%3B%26gt%3BCur r >ent%2DLoop+Interface+Converter&related=>. > >There's an explanation at <http://telebyteusa.com/catalog/appnotes/a65a.htm>, > <http://www.mouse.demon.nl/ckp/serial/cl.htm>, ><http://telecom.tbi.net/data-if.html> >and <http://www.bb-elec.com/techlibr.asp>. > >I'm sure someone has a web page with a homebrew conversion between >current loop and RS-232. The voltage levels and swings aren't the >same, so it's not just a matter of wiring. > >The circuit at ><http://www.ibhsoftec.de/english/screenshots/current_loop_converter.html> >might be right. > >- John >

26 years, 9 months

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Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

The only safe way is to use a transformer that is correctly wired. US mains is 120 - neutral - 120. which gives 240 between the 2 hots. European mains are 240 - neutral. Both expect the neutral to be at / near ground potential. If you wire it to US 240 directly what was neutral in Europe will be at 120v. I have several isolation / step up transformers that I routinely use to accomplish this. You need to be careful how they are wired in order to have both primary and secondary tied correctly to neutral and the grounds MUST be kept separate >from the neutral to meet US electrical code. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Ram Meenakshisundaram <rmeenaks(a)olf.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:19 AM Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment >Hi, > >Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a >parsytec xplorer, that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. >Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way >for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to >220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like >PC and laptops of today. In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug >next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. >Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get >a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) > >Ram > > >-- > > ,,,, > /'^'\ > ( o o ) > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- >| Ram Meenakshisundaram >| Senior Software Engineer >| OpenLink Financial Inc >| .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 >| ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks(a)olf.com > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ > >

26 years, 9 months

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Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box)

by daniel＠internet.look.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla <peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) >Hi, > > >....This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection > >though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while > >lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. > >One of the hazards of the old computer collector... > >Quite, I've managed to injure myself a number of times shifting medium/large >sized machines over the years. > >I trapped a nerve in my back both times I shifted my old PDP-11/23+ (in an >H960 cab with a pair of RL-01s). And please, believe me, shifting a PDP-11/34 >by yourself is NOT a good idea....my back muscles still wince at the thought. > >Also managed to strain a couple of back muscles when I moved my SGI 4D/70GT >into the house. There were two of us moving that beastie and we'd taken all >the boards out of it first (they're about the weight of my 11/53 on their >own). > > >Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in >my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space >Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > >Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) > > Quite a few times. When I was younger I would move RK05 drives all over the place by myself - killed my lower back. To this day I have bad back problems. My worst injuries are: RK05 / PDP 11/34 (no help) - bad lower back. Honeywell 316 - cyanide poisoning, was in the hospital, wished I was dead for a good 4-5 days as my insides were eaten out. Honeywell 316 - The scrap dealer (Wayne Borer) that got the unit for me brought it to the house when I was rather young. They got the entire case (included H316, fixed head DH, interface bays, air conditioner) to end of the truck when it started to fall. It fell on his NUTS! 3 guys (including my dad) held the case away from killing him. He rolled on the ground for at least 30 minutes in extreme pain. He never did have any kids after that. Honeywell 316 - Rack mounted on a flimbsy case, fell over one night and badly damaged the headboard on my bed. (kept it in my bedroom) H-11 with 2 RK05s and a bunch of other heavy mainframes - Broke the shocks in my dads caddy on the way home from athe Rochester Hamfest, scratches and back pain from making it fit. There have been more painful memories but I can't remember them all. The cyanide poisoning was the worst. > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | >peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | >peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk >-- > >

26 years, 9 months

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Next steps (was Re: pdp 8/e)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> wrote: > Yup, that would be the DEC "standard" three loop current loop interface. > (Tx loop, Rx loop, reader-run loop). Is there a picture of the "standard" 20mA connector with pinout? I want to test my ASR-33 up against a VT220 and I need at least to make a pin-swabbing cable if I don't need a 12V power supply, too. > >Yep. Unfortunately I dont have any peripherals. Except the one RL01, and > >apparently I dont have an interface board for that. > > I don't believe DEC made a Quad RL controller. I've only seen the M8433 > which is a hex wide RL controller that plugs into the PDP-8/a. That is the only RL controller I am aware of. OTOH, I like it a lot. I got one when I could not get RK05 drives, but I could get RL01 drives for around $100 plus shipping (over ten years ago). At that time, RL02's were still many hundreds. > >If the core memory doesnt work out, is the MOS memory actually affordable? I can't say for quad MOS. I've only got hex MOS... I haven't paid over $50 a board for any of it. > >Anyone willing to tell me some PDP parts suppliers that may have some > >interface boards, I have bought much from Continental Computers including an RL8A, KT8A and 128Kw memory board (MM8A-?) but you have to know by handle number what to ask for. I rattled off a list of boards and they only had two or three of the ones I was interested in. > > like whatever I need to hook up that RL01 (what exactly > >is a RL01 anyways). An RL01 is a 5Mb, single platter, embedded servo-style, removable drive. The RL02 is a 10Mb version of the same technology. They aren't all that fast, but they were plentiful, being available for the -8, -11 and various flavors of VAXen. IMHO, there is much less to maintain than than with RK05s. The OS/8 driver for the RL01 defines three logical units per physical drive, 40%, 40% and 20% of the capacity, but the third unit is slower because it fills the nooks and crannies around the first two units. It's because of a physical device size limitation in OS/8. > Maybe I should be looking to add floppy drives, etc. Floppies are nice if you have a stack of media with stuff on it. I have a few games and such. I'd like to be able to back them up to a modern machine and cut a CD-ROM of the disk images. To that end, I've just extracted a Tandon TM-848 floppy from my DataRam Q22 box and need to see about a power harness (six pin, H-shaped) and a 34<->50 pin cable to hook it up to an old box to do media conversion. > >OR, are people using IBM's as a terminal, and running some program that > >pretends to be an attached paper tape reader/punch unit? That might do > >for starters, though its not anywhere near as satisfying. If you didn't have a teletype, I guess a TTY emulator on a PC would be a way to go, but I don't know of any punch/reader emulating software, per se. I guess you could adapt ProComm or something like it that can upload and download data over the application. > >From there you have several choices, perhaps the simplest is the ASR33 with > paper tape software. As attendees to VCF can attest, it makes a loud but > somehow comforting ratcheting sound to hear FOCAL or some other system > being loaded at 10 CPS. On Highgate there is software for RX01's (OS/8 et al) It's not comforting to load papertape basic and Star Trek at 10cps... that's a *lot* of tape. I was glad to have a highspeed reader on the 12Kw -8/L. > Lots of fun ahead, > --Chuck For sure! -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

26 years, 9 months

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Apple //gs for sale

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Here is a non-profit organization trying to unload what looks to be a very nice and relatively complete Apple //gs system (with boxes!). I'd say a fair price for all this (and taking into account that this is a non-profit in need of cash) is $300 + shipping. Just a suggestion. Please reply to the sender. Reply-to: mwsmn(a)aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:18:08 EDT From: Mwsmn(a)aol.com To: vcf(a)vintage.org Subject: Question Hello, I have a 1988-1987 Apple 2 Gs With The extended RAM installed. With the historical value, how much would the system resell at? -APPLE CPU -14" MONITOR -KYBRD/MSE -250 SOFTWARE TITLES -ORIGINAL BOXES FOR SOFTWARE AND COMPUTER COMPONENTS -IMAGEWRITER 2 COLOR REFURB PRINTER -ALL ORIGINAL DOCUMENTATION We are a nonprofit organization. We are in need of a new system. We look forward to your response. (If you can, please tell us a place to sell it. USA only please) Thanks For Your Time. Hope You Can Help. Also, It's great to find an old-computer show. These wonderful machines brought us to where we are today. Glad you are showing yesterdays technologies! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man!

26 years, 9 months

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Dangers of shifting classic computers

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

> > Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in > my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space > Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > > Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) About 10 weeks ago, I was working on the drives on my HP9000 and severly sprained my lower back. I have been weight training for many years and was lifting correctly. A little turn in the wrong direction and OUCH!!! When asked what happened, I told everyone at work that I hurt myself installing a hard drive in my computer. Most of the guys laughed and called me a wuss. :-) BTW: I'd guess those drives weigh about 125# each. Steve Robertson -<steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 9 months

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Help wanted in dumping EPROMs

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have an old multibus-1 board from "Little Machines" on which the 186's and '286's among other things are wired backwards and soldered to the board because the original Intel data sheet didn't distinguish between the top and bottom of the JEDEC "A" package which is a leadless ceramic chip carrier of the type often seen in early PC/AT types. The board is so busy you can barely see any of the surface, and it's much the same on what ought to be the wiring side, as there are oodles of passives and other small-outline parts, I'd say as many as 1000, on the "back" of the board, since there wasn't room for anything more on the "front" where there are well over 100 DIP packages of various sizes. This solder-in of the leadless chip carrier package was done interestingly enough, in that the pins from an LCC socket were aparently extracted and soldered, one-by-one, to the board and the device inserted UNDER them in order to allow them to be soldered from the top. It can happen to anyone, I guess. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: Re: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs >> >> Yes indeed! The data sheets for the two parts will answer all the >> questions. All one has to do is to stay awake. I wouldn't make such a >> statement if I didn't know of instances where one has gone to sleep . . . >> that's one who shall remain nameless . . . > >Make it 2, OK :-). I very nearly wired up a transputer socket >mirror-reflected because one book showed the chip from the top and >another showed the socket from the bottom. I caught the error just in time... > >-tony >

26 years, 9 months

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FW: Free to good home: Byte Magazine 1993 - 1998

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

If anyone would like a complete collection of BYTE mags from 1993 until the last issue in 1998, drop an E-mail to the fellow below. He's just looking for a home for them. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:19:07 GMT, in seattle.forsale.computers you wrote: >>Includes the last historic issue published in July 1998. >>This i s a collector's set. My wife prefers basement space to >>history. I would rather see someone enjoy the collection >>than turn it in for land fill. >> >>Any takers? >> >>Please respond by e-mail. Remove % from the address >>before pressing SEND. Actual address is tcox(a)jps.net -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

26 years, 9 months

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S-100 Bus

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 9:21 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Bus ><If you're an S-100 user, particularly if you have experience in bringing ><up a system from totally dead to totally alive, I'd certainly like to ><see what your impression of your needs from such a device might be. > >I've brought up several IMSAIs, Altairs, NS*, Netronics explorer 8085, >several mongrels and my multi-CPU s100 crate. > I've also brought up a number of S-100's and SBC's, not to mentions systems on the MULTIBUS-I. The only case in which I've used a front panel has been the one MULTIBUS-user-client I had once whose SW types thought it would help. I doubt that it did, but it was a fun job! > >Front pannel systems were rich enough to accomplish the task once the FP >was known working or nearly so. Often the problems were dirty switches, >broken wires, failed oneshots or maybe a bad LED. Other problems were the >older boards that didn't like Bus pins 20 and 70 (protect/unprotect). > >Must haves: > > ability to display memory > ability to write to memory > Start, stop and single step the CPU Those go without saying. After all, this is supposed to be a diagnostic tool. >Most front pannel systems (alatir, Imsai, Ithaca intersystems, PDA-80 have >the basic resources. A scope may be needed if there are timing issues >or one shots that are drifted off. > >The non front pannel systems required a FP that could be plugged in. the >easiest way was a a minimal CPU (Computime SBC880) that can drive the bus >but is otherwise self contained. That and a terminal is as good as a front >panel (better). I agree, except that I belive that your PC-compatible would make an even better FP substitute, with its nearly 1 GHz processor, 1GB of RAM and several 3-doz-GB HDD's. Moreover, since it can not only load programs and monitor their execution, clock-tick-by-clock-tick, and disassemble unfamiliar code in real time, generally waiting for the resident processor to catch up, it has potential not yet exploited. You can use it for logic analysis, signature analysis/failure detection, code verification, profiling, etc. It's just another tool, but if it can be sold for less than IMSAI's FP, then it's not only an improved tool, but less costly, too. Since you can repetitively stimulate the S-100 in a short loop, you can easily address signal quality issues previous too slippery for most folks. You can look over the processor's shoulder or you can take him out of the loop and run things yourself. When you've narrowed the problem you have down to a small set of signals, you can poke around with your 'scope to see that all's as it should be. >The multi-cpu system needed more as the CPUs were not commercial units >IE: they never worked before so they had to be debugged first and that >required a bus logic analyser (capture bus state 1024 cycles deep) that >could trigger on specified conditions. This was needed to look at the >interaction of the many cpus and DMA devices. Once the system could run >code predictably (could still crash but reset to rom monitor was reliable) >The bus analyser was almost by un-needed. I never used a front panel until I was asked to build one for a multi-processor system on a VERY extended Multibus-I. That was fun and profitable, but wholly unnecessary, I felt, since all the processor boards were completely self-sufficient with the exception of mass storage, and since the CP/M image was in ROM, it didn't take long to boot, either. >A simple logic probe was the single common tool besides a front panel or >its analogue. A multi trace scope was handy for Altairs (too damn many >one-shots!) and other system where the problem was logic that was damaged >from lightining (my old NS* system). > I've normally addressed lightning damage with a call to the insurance company, though they usually don't respond promptly. The procedure for socketed boards is to take the parts out and test them in a tester. Most prom programmers can do that. I really don't see how a logic probe can help you until you've narrowed the problem down to a single board. What's more, it's common enough to have several boards which work correctly in a system that doesn't. Sometimes they just don't work and play well with others. CompuPro boards were famous for this. They often wouldn't work with other boards from CompuPro. They weren't alone in this, but their idea of interoperability was that MOST of the boards in a system which they sold would work together. Their excellent marketing and advertising made them the main force behind adoption of a standard too weak to work, and too vague to provide guidance. They, more than any other maker of S-100 stuff ignored whatever parts of the standard that it suited them to ignore, and they weren't alone. The problems of this sort are exactly the sort I'd seek to address with a bus probe. What's more, there are few tools which will automatically allow you to find inadvertent connections between signals, say, because of a mis-jumpered board, or such, or to find that what one board maker uses for signal is GND to another. > >Allison > > > >

26 years, 9 months

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Site update and Compaq 486

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: >The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were >powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in >question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. > >I don't think the first machines using 33 MHz 80486 CPUs were released >until sometime 1991. I don't think its the Byte article you mention, but the May 1990 Byte goes into a comparison of EISA and Microchannel. Says the first EISA machine was a HP Vectra 486 and talks as if the Compaq Systempro was next. Hans

26 years, 9 months

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Still Looking for DEC CR11/CM11 Card Reader!

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Group: A repost, just in case anyone missed it: > > Hi Gang: > > I'm interested in finding a card reader for my pdp-11 machines. There was > one advertised as available earlier this week, unfortunately it has been > claimed. > > The CR11 and CM11 models are what I'm looking for - they're a desktop > variety that would work nicely with my current machines. > > Anyone out there have one they will part with? > > Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

26 years, 9 months

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S-100 Bus

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<If you're an S-100 user, particularly if you have experience in bringing = <up a system from totally dead to totally alive, I'd certainly like to = <see what your impression of your needs from such a device might be. I've brought up several IMSAIs, Altairs, NS*, Netronics explorer 8085, several mongruls and my multi-CPU s100 crate. Front pannel systems were rich enough to accomplish the task one the FP was known working or nearly so. Often the problems were dirty switches, broken wires, failed oneshots or maybe a bad LED. Other problems were the older boards that didn't like Bus pins 20 and 70 (protect/unprotect). Must haves: ability to display memory ability to write to memory Start, stop and single step the CPU Most front pannel systems (alatir, Imsai, Ithica intersystems, PDA-80 have the basic resources. A scope may be needed if there are timing issues or one shots that are drifted off. The non front pannel systems required a FP that could be plugged in. the easiest way was a a minimal CPU (Computime SBC880) that can drive the bus but is otherwise self contained. That and a terminal is as good as a front pannel (better). The multi-cpu system needed more as the CPUs were not commercial units IE: they never worked before so they had to be debugged first and that required a bus logic analyser (capture bus state 1024 cycles deep) that could trigger on specified conditions. This was needed to look at the interaction of the many cpus and DMA devices. Once the system could run code predictably (could still crash but reset to rom monitor was reliable) The bus analyser was almost by un-needed. A simple logic proble was the single common tool besides a frontpannel or its analogue. A multi trace scope was handy for altairs (too dam many oneshots!) and other system where the problem was logic that was damaged >from lightining (my old NS* system). Allison

26 years, 9 months

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S-100 Bus

by edick＠idcomm.com

Hi! When I said the device had to work at high speed, I was referring to the crosspoint switch which is used to distribute and collect the bus signals, and by means of which one can assign an arbitrary destination for any of the source signals, viewing them as channels rather than as individual bits. The reason for this is to facilitate wiggling bus hanshake signal lines at something approaching real-life speeds. If you've got 96 such channels and want to update them all at a 2 MHz rate without skew between the various changes, you've got to multiply that number of bits by the rate, which quickly yields 192 MHz, which is the rate at which the circuit translates the bits. The good (and saving) thing that I'd quickly point out, is that it's seldom necessary to change all the signals. There's a way to shorten the delay between bus updates by skipping the updates of unchanged registers. That will help, hopefully with this bandwidth demand. It's easy to reduce the signals changed in a transaction on the bus by a couple of dozen by paying attention only to the signals relevant to a given transaction. This means that the board should have no difficulty whatever generating the typical data transfer handshake ant a normal speed, and wouldn't strain too much to perform block fills and block transfers, and, more interestingly, reasonably thorough memory verification, since that actually involves only a couple of dozen or so signals. I was/am contemplating a programmable state machine with which to perform bus transactions at real-world rates in lieu of a "full-blown" crosspoint switch because that way I could proceed to program macro-operations locally as opposed to doing everything in the PC and suffering the performance loss. What the crosspoint switch does for me is it allows me to group the inputs and outputs in any combination I like, thereby making really fast bus transactions possible since the delay form update at the PC interface to the S-100 is a function of how long it takes me to load the registers I need to load in order to do what I need. If only two or three registers need to be changed, then loading them will be all that has to be done before generating an update of the S-100. In any case, I'm considering an alternative design which will operate at a much higher rate because of parallelism. In a couple of weeks I'll know whether I can exploit that higher rate with PC-resident software. Keep in mind, that this thing has to work from the parallel port, else it's too big a hassle. I don't want to build a kit to go in the PC along with one to go in the S-100. What's more, I don't want to fiddle with USB, since it's WAY too slow, and SCSI is a bit too complex for me to fiddle with for this application. (I don't like having to buy documents on standards like ASPI). What's more, I want this to be useable from a notebook. That's how I intend to drive it. As far as the graphical interface, I've considered how I'm going to sneak up on this. I'm not a WINDOWS programmer, nor do wish to become one. I thought what I'd do is write the code in 'C' using Borland's stuff, then move to their WINDOWS-compatible software set or maybe SYMANTEC's, which is also in house. Ultimately, I was hopeful I could generate the top level GUI stuff, e.g. the front panel buttons, in Visual Basic. I've got a physical front panel built with switches that look a bit like the buttons VB creates quite easily, and, since each one has a little round LED in it, the VB handler can emulate that as well. I expect that this will be a substantial education for me, but I also expect that the fundamental software tools to make this board a useful tool will be no trouble at all. I don't HAVE to run it under Windows in order to use some display graphics, you see. I think that I can cook up a library of routines (macros) which the user can select from a popup menu or drop-down list, or some such. That way he simply generates a block of data, be it a byte, word, or whatever, with nearly no limits, and tells the system what to do by means of macro commands, like fill memory from-to-with . . . maybe even some I/O operations. What's needed is a bit of outside input. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 7:14 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Bus >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> >> If you're an S-100 user, particularly if you have experience in bringing up a >> system from totally dead to totally alive, I'd certainly like to see what your >> impression of your needs from such a device might be. >> >> Dick > > >Hi Dick > I've only brought one IMSAI up from the dead. I only needed >a dual trace oscilloscope but I realize that isn't always >the best option. Way back when, I worked for Intel and >was responsible for test of the UPP product. This had a 4040 >on it. I built a cable and interface that allowed >one to replace the 4040 with a Series II development system. >It was not a full logic analyzer, it just did normal read/write >to ROM, RAM and I/O. This combined with an oscilloscope made >a good trouble shooting tool. There isn't really a need to >do 100 MHz operations to make a useful tool. One can make >variable delays to adjust read and write timing to look >for timing issues. The code that ran on the Series II >was done in Forth. This way, one could quickly write a particular >test routine for the particular problem one was trouble shooting, >like one would do on a Sun with open boot. This would be quite >hard to do in a GUI without some kind of command line >macro ability ( the problem with GUI's is that, although a >picture is worth a thousand words, they are often not the >thousand words that you currently need ). Trouble shooting >requires flexibility in test conditions that are much more >varied than what would be used to simply go-nogo test. >Dwight >

26 years, 9 months

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Site update and Compaq 486

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/6/99 9:45:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, red(a)bears.org writes: > The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were > powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in > question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. MCA clones? interesting! remember anything about the article? Ive an NCR 3300 that is similar to a PS/2 model 77.

26 years, 9 months

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