At 12:42 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one
>word: "hogwash".
My HP3000 (with HD's and cart tape) is in a case slightly larger (wider,
possibly a bit deeper) than a standard full tower. The 9-track tape drive,
of course, is in it's own 6-ft enclosure, but if I were smart, I could fit
all the other 3000 bits inside the (empty) bottom. Hmmm... Wonder why I
never thought of that before?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
At 03:57 PM 7/23/97 +0000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
>Lucky for me the man who runs it is a nice guy. And for about $100-200, I
>may be able to get my hands on an 8550. Assuming I can re-assemble it,
>it's been taken apart.
This may be a real challenge. The Nautilus based systems (8800, 88x0, 8700,
85x0) have an interesting back plane using zif sockets. When the systems
run they run, but when they go bad, they're horrible to fix. I spent a fair
part of the last three years doing user maintenance on 8800s and an 8820
and I can tell you now that fixing these beasts can be a real pain. In
particular, the diagnostics are unreliable at best. Even the professionals
have problems, we had a Digital maintained 8800 die and after two weeks of
three engineers they finally decided to ship a new system down from Sydney.
Fortunately we managed to convince management to upgrade to newer systems.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au
Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479
1999
La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary
Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways"
Fellow in SoCal's trying to get rid of some worthwhile-looking books.
Anyone interested?
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
I was surprised to receive no response whatsoever to my original post.
When
I started collecting PDPs, I grabbed all the documentation I could get my
hands
on. Maybe nobody runs RSTS any more. Maybe V9.0 manuals are too old. In
any
case, the manuals I described in my original post (below) go in the trash
if
not spoken for by Friday July 25.
----------
Greetings.
Unfortunately, my interest in PDP-11s exceeds my available storage. I
picked
up a partial set of RSTS/E manuals a while back, but find I now need the
space
they occupy.
These are the standard orange DEC binders, and most of the contents are
still
in shrink wrap. The partial set is as follows:
----------
System Management (Volume 2)
System Manager's Guide
System Usage (Volume 3)
System User's Guide
Guide to Writing Command Procedures
Utilities (Volume 4)
Utilities Reference Manual
Introduction to the EDT Editor
SORT/MERGE User's Guide
RUNOFF User's Guide
Utilities (Volume 4A)
EDT Editor Manual
Utilities (Volume 4B)
Task Builder Reference Manual
Programmer's Utilities Manual
RT11 Utilities Manual
TECO User's Guide
BASIC-PLUS (Volume 5)
BASIC-PLUS Language Manual
System Programming (Volume 6)
Programming Manual
MACRO Programming (Volume 7)
System Directives Manual
ODT Reference Manual
MACRO Programming (Volume 7A)
MACRO-11 Language Manual
RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide
RMS (Volume 8)
RMS-11: An Introduction
RMS-11 User's Guide
RMS-11 Utilities
----------
These manuals are located in Southern CA. Shipping would be pretty
expensive,
and I would prefer not to have to pack them (e.g. preference granted to
those
who could pick them up).
I am not looking for much (if anything) in return for these; I really just
want them gone and suspect someone might need them. If you want me to
pack
and ship them, though, I will probably want something to offset my time
and
trouble (and shipping, of course). I am always looking for Q-bus
hardware,
and right now specifically for S-box (BA213) cabinet kits for a KA650 and
a
VCB02.
Please send email to slinker(a)primenet.com if interested (NOTE: The email
address in the header has an underscore "_" appended to foil spammers).
Jeff.
--
Jeff Shirley slinker(a)primenet.com
Remove the underscore ("_") from the end of my email address when
replying
** UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL/PROMOTIONAL EMAIL IS NOT ACCEPTED **
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ADDRESS ALTERED TO FOIL SPAMMERS: See below for address...
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272)
kyrrin-at-wizards-dot-net http://www.wizards.net/technoid
"...Spam is bad. Spam wastes resources. Spam is theft of service. Don't spam, period..."
Welcome!
Which Lisa model do you have? I have a Lisa 2/10 that is almost
working. The hard drive install of Sun's version of MacWorks is
apparently corrupt and it doesn't boot completely (or needs a boot
floppy that I don't have). I'm loathe to fix the MacWorks install
because I'd rather run the Lisa Office System.
Problem is, the Lisa Office System is serialized, and, once installed,
it will only reinstall on the same Lisa. There are some outfits around
that will sell copies of the uninstalled disks for $170, which is a bit
steep. I have an acquaintance at a local computer recycler who has a
set and is willing to let me borrow them, but I'll have to set up a PC
with two 720K drives (which I don't have handy) and a Copy II Option
Board (which I do have) to dupe them.
Kai
> ----------
> From: Rob Bedeaux[SMTP:bede0005@gold.tc.umn.edu]
> Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 7:25 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Apple Lisa Owners??
>
> Hi all:
>
> This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is
>
> great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic
>
> Computers!!
>
> I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there
>
> also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office
> System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is
>
> what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get
> rid
> of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in
> Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But
> what
> about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any
> cards
> that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card
> was
> available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else?
> Let's
> see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited
> to
> the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember
> the
> name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers?
> Well
> thanks to anyone with any info
>
> Rob
>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000
^^^^
From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is that win 1895?
:-)
m@
[...]
> My experience is that most computer hobbiests/hackers/engineers/etc.
> tend to keep everything, especially when they have used to the stuff
> before. As such, most people I know would much rather give it away than
> throw it away ... and unless they have already given it away, they
> probably still have it :)!
--
/* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler(a)cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas
(512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */
In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E
Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the
argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one
word: "hogwash".
For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19"
wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there-
abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little
deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are
at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but
usually do not top 100 pounds or so.
Yes, collecting them does take creative space management.
I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good
call! I hadn't thought of that one...
Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for
transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200
for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just
got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays
in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website).
Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked
at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with
space left over.
I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter
underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I
also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the
dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal
stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables.
The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the
six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen
machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un-
fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter
method" of space management.
The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out
to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are
doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame.
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs
has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll
re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV???
(sorry, mostly off-topic but, hey, it's STEVE JOBS!!!)
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the
Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off.
Due to a lack of communication within the company that had the units,
they were all, in the words of Mike Westin who was the go-between in the
deal, "shit-canned". The company simply threw them out because they did
not know there was an offer tendered.
On the positive side, there are still roughly 50-75 units still left
within the company that are still being used by employees, and will be so
for about the next two months. Mike is currently developing a new product
for the company, at which time they will no longer use the remaining
units, and they will then, hopefully, be sold to us.
So for now, no HHCs. Its disappointing, mostly because the thought of
all these nice systems being simply thrown out is a damn shame. However,
we may yet be able to acquire the remaining units in a couple month's time.
Stay tuned.
Sorry all.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
> Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who
>care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short-
>term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you
>don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this
>happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.)
Depends on the micro.
While IMHO it's true that Apple ]['s, PET's, TRS-80, etc are not exactly
hard to find, there are some rather rare machines, like the Tandy Deluxe CoCo
(something like 2 exist), a prototype Acorn that I can't remember the name of
(M4???), the HH tiger (Prototype only), etc that are somewhat hard to find.
It's quite possible that the next one of those that you see is the last!
>| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
-tony
>For those still confused, the 1/2 RK07 was just the actual drive
>mechanism. An entire RK07 is about 4 feet tall, the bottom is which is
>basically empty.
One design of RK07 stand can be modified to mount the drive about 12" hight
than it should be. In my case this gave me a mounting for an EMI magtape and 4
flip-chip backplanes with no extra floor area.
Not quite original DEC, of course....
>
>William Donzelli
-tony
[...]
>And there are some minis in there amongst the micros:
>
>An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no
>memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it,
>though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one
>day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the
>moment but am keeping my eyes open.
I found one of those in a skip (literally!) a few years back, and was allowed
to rescue it. Mine came as the CPU box with 32K (I think) core, a lot of I/O
cards (or at least I assume that's what they are), a paper tape reader and a
somewhat mangled cartridge disk drive (1 fixed platter, one RK05-like
cartridge). Alas no manuals.
It looks like it could be got to run again, but as I know nothing about it,
I've not put any time in on it yet....
>
>Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably
>learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I
>am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot
>of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or
>maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't
>know.
>
>But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things
>that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know
>anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower
>selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected
>learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And
>for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be
>micros than minis.
I swap between the 2 'modes'. Sometimes I'll get a machine because I know what
it is, and because I remember it. The Tandy M4 I bought a couple of weeks ago
fits in here - I grew up on a Tandy Model 1, and remember the M4 coming out. I
wanted one then, but could never afford it. Now I can, and can run those
programs from 80-micro....
But more often I get a machine because I have no idea what it is, but it looks
interesting. The P850 (the machine that seriously started me collecting) fits
in here. As do the PERQs - I thought it was a 68000 box when I got the first
one, and was amazed to see a soft-microcoded CPU. Learning from such a machine
is great fun...
[...]
>(Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of
>hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I
I certainly grab schematics and printsets without the hardware that goes with
them - you never know what will turn up later....
>mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them.
>And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in
>terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.)
It's not that hard. What started me off was getting a relatively simple
minicomputer - I'd recomend either the PDP8/e or the PDP11/05 as a starter, and
sitting down with the machine, the technical manual, and the printsets. I
single-stepped the machine, and watched how it executed an instruction with a
logic probe. I where the microcode went, what gates were enabled, etc, and
related it to the diagrams in the manual. After a couple of days I could
understand most of the instructions....
>Got any pointers to where we could learn more?
Yep...
CPU Technical manuals from the late 1960's - early 1970's. Most of those
include a gate-level description of the CPU operation. It helps a lot to have
the machine in front of you, though.
>
>-Frank McConnell
-tony
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail remarked:
> Sure, I'll just needlessly add to my current mountain of debt.
> There is a practical limit to what any individual can do or be
> expected to do. I'm not going to over-burden myself over a hobby.
Sorry about that, Sam. I didn't think the cattle-prod was turned
on. :-)
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> writes:
> > An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no
> If you ever want cards in the future, I would start looking now. HP
> circuit boards are COMPLETELY gold plated (even under the green coating),
> and are loved by scrappers everywhere.
Good point. If you want to see something really scary in that regard,
open up an HP 9000 series 5xx and look at the CPU boards. Those
*really* look like gold, closer to solid than plated.
I was looking (mostly for the memory) a bit more intensely a couple of
years ago, and found that 2100 parts were also in demand to keep
running systems running.
> I must agree with you here. DEC makes great stuff (mostly), but so do
> some of the other guys. Personally, I am starting to shift into the IBM
> world, as it really has been ignored by historians (other than Paul
> Pierce (who must be laughing at us weenies and our problems storing minis
> and micros) and IBM itself).
Yep. The mini world was kind of wide there for a while. I expect
some of those machines really are gone forever.
Has anyone here ever heard of a company called Digital Systems
Corporation, based somewhere in (I think) the Maryland suburbs of
Washington DC in the late 1970s, maybe into the 1980s? I worked on
something of theirs once, called a Galaxy/5. Never heard of it or
them since.
Come to think of it, there could be good reasons for that, and it
could be a good thing. Nah...we've got to keep the failures around
too -- learning from mistakes is so much better when they're someone
else's mistakes.
-Frank McConnell
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail was rumoured
to have remarked:
> [...] Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact
> is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or
> transportation charges?
Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who
care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short-
term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you
don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this
happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.)
> [...] that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife
> could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. [...]
> She has problem enough with the garage full of crap.
Oddly enough, Diana and I have been together now for the better
part of a decade, and while she occasionally grumbles about my hobby,
she supports it because she knows that it's important (not just to
me, but for a larger cause as well).
I believe the use of the term "crap" comes from fundamental
misunderstandings of our common computing history. Sad.
> Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems
> (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living
> space for the hobby.
It all depends upon how seriously we take our hobby, doesn't it.
(That was merely an observation, _not_ an editorial comment!) For
what it's worth, an IMSAI is just about twice the size of a pdp11/23.
And less than a quarter of the CPU power.
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
Hello all,
I own a Honeywell 716 Minicomputer, in running order. It?s a general
purpose 16-bit machine, with 128 KB of ferrite core memory, a cassette
tape device, a front panel as main console, and an ASR-33 Teletype as
operator's console.
There were other peripherals, such as line printers, fixed disks, card
reader-puncher, high-speed paper tape reader, 9" tape decks... but I
only own the basic system.
The system was designed (aprox.) in June 1972.
Has anybody ever heard about such machine? I?ve spent some time looking
through the net, and looks like I?m the only one I own that system.
Perhaps Honeywell didn?t made lots of them, like DEC did with PDP's.
I?ve read somewhere (don?t know if it?s true) that first nodes in
Arpanet were Honeywell DDP 516. I think my system is the next model
(Honeywell DDP 716). In fact, mine can execute H-516's instructions set.
I also heard U.S.Navy used these systems for shot calculations.
If anybody has any information about the Honeywell DDP 516 or 716
machines, please email me. I?m looking for somebody who worked with
those systems or even better, somebody who owns one of them.
Thanks in advance.
--
Sergio Izquierdo Garc?a
** Computer collector **
mailto: impeesa at arrakis dot es
In mail ID number 9707221139.AA13838(a)alph02.triumf.ca, Mr. Tim
Shoppa laments:
> What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of
> Data General Eclipse S/130's up here in B.C. - machines with full
> toggle-and-light front panels - and I'm unable to give them away.
This is a crying shame. For plain beauty, the S/130 rivals, and
to some, outranks even the much-vaunted IMSAI. For raw speed in a
minicomputer the 16-bit line from DG was virtually without peer.
Yes, some late -11s surpassed the raw power of the Nova instruction
set, but it was years behind DG.
We'd better save these machines while we can; Data General was,
at its zenith only about 20% of the size of DEC, and its install-
base was similar in scope. These machines are _not_ common, remain
useable today, and are a joy to look at and run. Don't let the
opportunity pass.
> Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for
> the junk heap?
I, for one, certainly hope not.
Part of the misconception about minicomputers is that they take
up huge amounts of space. Yes, individual examples are larger than
the average microcomputer; however, minicomputers stack nicely, can
be stored very compactly in rack-mounts, and being squared off, can
occupy corners very well. They're not as space-intensive as one
might think. They're usually faster than most micros, too.
While minis don't, right now, get the blast of attention that
machines like the IMSAIs do (why is that machine so popular? War
Games, maybe?), they are a valuable link to computing's history
and they're disappearing from existance very quickly. Without
Mr. Shoppa's efforts, better than a dozen of these wonderful
systems would have been shipped to the scrappers without a second
thought. And that would be too bad.
______________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA |
| mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | |
| http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 |
|________________________________________________|_____________________|
<> The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and
<> magenta at various times and combinations.
<
<It seems to me that the PDP-11/60s were in red cabinets (in fact,
<introduced as "the Big Red Machine").
We had one in the support lab and it wasn't red! It was lite blue and gray
combo. The only big reds were the system-20s.
Allison
Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> writes:
> Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the
> junk heap?
No, but speaking for myself I am short on space at the moment (and
don't see it getting better for a while), lacking organization
(working on that one), short on time (which constrains both of the
above), and short of space between my ears too (too doggone many
learning experiences this last year or so and a medium-sized list
of some I have yet to get to).
This Sunday I told someone "you know, I sometimes think I should stop
collecting and get to work with the stuff I have." Which is enough to
fill one 10'x10' (figure 3mx3m) storage closet to where it's not too
difficult to get to stuff and make a pretty good showing of boxed
manuals and magnetic media in another. Certainly most of it needs
some sort of work.
And there are some minis in there amongst the micros:
An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no
memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it,
though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one
day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the
moment but am keeping my eyes open.
Two HP 3000/37 CPUs, and enough disk drives and other bits to make one
of 'em work. Well, they're a little bit small for minis, at least
if you consider just the CPU box.
An HP Micro 3000GX, currently taking up space in my workroom, with a
7970E 1600BPI tape drive that gives the resident manager hives -- it's
big and metal therefore it must be heavy, right? (I live in the
apartment above her.) Can I call this a mini? It runs the same code
that used to run on bigger 3000s, but it calls itself a "Micro" (and
fits entirely in a little tower case that with packing material and
box weighs 78 pounds -- what's that, 35kg?). Is it part of the
colllection? Hard to say, I used to do real work on it, but I
wouldn't part with it....
An HP 9000/520, but there we are straying away from minis into early
1980s supermicro/workstation sorts of things.
Various manuals for the above, as well as other systems in the 3000
and 21xx families. Also manuals and print sets for a Nuclear Data
ND812 mini.
A few odd parts: HP 3000/III front door with panel (found this on a
19" rack at Foothill swap meet -- the guts were gone and I really
don't need another empty 19" rack then or now); two HP 3000/CX front
doors, goldenrod; probably other stuff that slips my mind right now.
You may have noticed a preponderance of HP hardware in the above list.
That is because it is what I know something about (have been doing
stuff with 3000s for close to 20 years now, have dialed up 2000
time-shared BASIC systems way back when and know they are based on the
21xx-family CPUs (as are the early HP 1000 systems), and supported a
product on the 9000/500 for a little while and came to appreciate its
quirks). I don't know that much about DEC gear, and next to nothing
about DG stuff -- never used it at all.
Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably
learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I
am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot
of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or
maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't
know.
But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things
that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know
anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower
selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected
learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And
for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be
micros than minis.
There's another point in there too: I've consciously ignored DEC stuff
(or passed it on to other more interested folks) for the simple reason
that there seemed to me to be a pretty active community working on
preserving it already! But DG stuff is another matter, I just haven't
really noticed much of it or much discussion of it.
OK Tim, you've guilt-tripped me...a little bit. But I'm still
wondering what I could do with and learn from some of this stuff.
What would I need to make a workable system? I expect the definition
of "workable" is variable amongst the readership, but I could amuse
myself for a while looking at an instruction set reference card and
having Real Iron on which to toggle in a lights hack would be a nice
bonus.
(Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of
hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I
mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them.
And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in
terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.)
Maybe it takes more to interest other folks, like the ability to hook
up and use terminal and/or storage devices. Maybe even load some sort
of operating system if that's what was customary on these things; I'd
probably want to get there someday myself. (Of course that poses its
own problem of where to get the operating software.) I don't know,
like I said I really don't know anything about DG hardware as it was
used in practice -- my background is in DP/MIS, datacomm, HP 3000s,
and nowadays sticking IP-protocol-suite stuff into Windows device
drivers.
Got any pointers to where we could learn more?
-Frank McConnell
From: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:47:54.16
To: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu"
CC:
Subj: Minicomputer Storage Myths
> In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E
>Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the
>argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one
>word: "hogwash".
Absolutly!
My parents (who have to put up with and store most of my little collection)
don't like storing micros (in fact they moan for days when I bring home
a TRS-80 or some such), but don't seem to mind the PDP11's/PDP8's etc
anything like as much.
The reason is simple. Micros are a pain to store. You can't easily stack
them (the ones at the bottom get mangled, the pile slips over, etc). Monitors
are worse. But minicomputers (generally) come in 19" boxes that either go into
a 6' (or taller!) cabinet, or get stacked up in a pile in the corner. They are
easy to store.
The floor area taken up by a 6' rack is not much larger than the area taken by
a micro, BTW...
> I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good
>call! I hadn't thought of that one...
I've considered designing a bed with 3 6U or 9U rack bays under it. In the
UK you can get beds with storage drawers under them, but one _designed_ for
computers would be somewhat interesting...
> Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for
>transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200
>for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just
>got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays
>in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website).
A large estate car (Station wagon?) will carry a _lot_ of minicomputer
hardware. I've been in one which contained :
A PDP8/e
A PDP11/44
A Sun 3/260 (on its side, on top of the PDP's)
A PPL graphics display + trackball
A northstar Horizon (OK, a micro, but in a 19" rack)
An Acorn System 4 (ditto)
A _lot_ of spare boards, drives, heads, etc
Service manuals, printsets, etc.
No problem at all.
> The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the
>six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen
>machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un-
>fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter
>method" of space management.
Odd... My parents _like_ big rack cabinets - in fact they grab them for me to
put my machines in. Maybe I'm just lucky.
> The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out
>to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are
>doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame.
That's exactly why I started. I realised (10 years ago) that nobody was
preserving the recent history of computing, and it was going to be lost for
ever. So I did something. I started collecting and restoring computers.
>| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston |
-tony
< Yes...most PDP-11 gear is that funky purple color...The early VAXen
<were blue, the later VAXen were brown.
Magenta is that funky pinkish purple. None of the vaxen I know of are
brown, coffee stained maybe.
The Vaxen were light grey (almost white) and medium blue or light grey and
dark gray(with a coco-ish cast).
The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and
magenta at various times and combinations.
PDP10s were litght blue and the system 20s were poppy orange.
Most systems DEC made were by the early 80s gray 68 with some darker gray.
There would be one stnadrad light grey (sorta eggshell) and about five
darker greys like the TK50 carts, insets for micro11, pro350 and the insets
for the BA11 pannel.
Allison
>Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy
>Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real
>pain. What do other collectors do with these machines?
Put them on top of piles of minicomputers :-).
Seriously, I _have_ used chipboard/shelf brackets to make 'tunnels' that fit
over the crazier shaped machines (PETs, etc), so that I can stack other things
on top. If you do this, and decide to run the machines that inside the tunnels,
then please add fans or at least make sure air can get into the cooling vents.
>On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are
>normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you
>get with a micro.
Indeed. I have a large pile of DEC printsets + A4 binders of user guides, etc.
Mind you, the 8 IBM Techref manuals (PC, XT, AT vol1, AT vol2, O&A vol 1, O&A
vol 2, Scientific O&A, PC-jr) take up quite a bit of space as well...
>--
>Kevan
-tony
From: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60
To: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu"
CC:
Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths
>Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not
>at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24
>room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection,
>but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd
>probably love to have one.
That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely
nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on
how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true
of some other serious collectors on this list.
Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service
manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a
group of experts to turn to, either.
-tony
I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's
e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all
who don't wish to read it.
> WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE?
>
> The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS
> Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its
> microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in
> series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the
> modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is
> the SuperPET.
What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the
8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week. I
have also heard that the 8200 series runs BASIC 4.5, but mine runs 4.0.
[...]
> Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive):
> PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with)
> - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys
I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new
ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the
built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines.
> - Upgrade ROMs
> - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops.
> - many with clearer green on black displays
I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight
2001 (old ROM) with a green screen.
> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed
Was this not only available as an upgrade?
> PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine)
> - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys)
> - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode)
> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed
> - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased.
Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small
keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B
machines
> PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM)
I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting.
> - 4.0 ROMs
> - molded plastic top
> 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke')
> - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound.
> - 4.0 ROMs
> PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM)
> - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns
> - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing.
> 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.)
Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints
on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the
40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't
handle wrapped text, etc.
The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two
chips. I haven't done this to mine yet...
[...]
At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D!
[... SUPERPET ...]
> MOTHERBOARD SERIES
>
> 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT)
> IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1
> +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+
> ! # ! #!
> ! # ! #!
> ! # exp ! #! exp
> ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus
> ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #!
> ! # ! #!
> ! ! ! !
> ! ! ! !
> ! ROMS ! ! !
> ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! !
> ! ! ! !
>tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY !
> #1 # ! #2 # !
> +--------------------+ +--------------------+
The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were
no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2
kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were
therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0
The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports
were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK.
> 4000/8000 series (12" CRT)
> IEEE user tape #1
> +------####-####--##-+
> ! # # tape
> ! # # #2
> ! R exp bus # !
> ! A #! 2000 Series
> ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k
> ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k]
> ! M R B !
> ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series
> ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k
> ! O S E !
> ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series
> ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k*
> ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k]
> +--------------------+
8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard
mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?).
> WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC?
>
> Original ROMs
> Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are
> limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine
> language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory
> location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for
> lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a
> while to compile them)
Some of these were not bugs but features. Peeking and poking in upper memory
(thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people looking at the ROMS. In the E
page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards...
The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever
computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in
screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files"
error.
[...]
> Added screen 'window' formatting control characters.
Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not
have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features.
[...]
> HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR?
>
> The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all
> PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK
> instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people
> enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0.
TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual.
[...]
> WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT?
>
> This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a >
computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can
> potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical
> units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat
> commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry.
> History of 'the killer poke'
[ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ]
The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It
was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the
character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing
speed even if you had speeded it up.
The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine
waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory.
This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random
pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the
I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when
to access the video RAM.
The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured
this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print
character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with
the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the
video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the
other).
[...]
> IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32
NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets!
> CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET?
>
> With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from
> the user port...
>
> Insert Video Diagram here....
Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't
work.
[...]
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel.
Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel.
Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst;
Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst.
Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk
A very complete Commodore ROM Geneology is in MICRO Issue 41, October
'81. I have a copy in my PET Service Reference Guide, but it's 4 pages
of tables and has handwritten additions that would be difficult to OCR.
If you're a PET fan you might have this issue around anyway.
By the way, the Service Reference Guide is a priceless piece; all
schematics and test instructions, plus diagnostic cassettes and
floppies. I have most of the Commodore "Techtopics" monthly bulletins
also.
Kai
> ----------
> From: Larry Anderson & Diane Hare[SMTP:foxnhare@goldrush.com]
> Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ
>
> I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting
> it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you
> all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to
> include, let me know.
>
> I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET
> memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I
> don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies
> to
> 64 also).
>
> (view with a monospaced font for best results)
>
> THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER
> FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta
> ---------------------------------------------
> BY LARRY ANDERSSON,
> COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE?
>
> The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing
> MOS
> Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its
> microprocessor,
> the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the
> first
> series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern
> 4000
> and
> 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the
> SuperPET.
>
> 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display):
> PET 2001series:
> Original PET:
> - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape
> drive
> - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard
> - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM
> - Original ROMs
> Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive):
> PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was
> shipped
> with)
> - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys
> - Upgrade ROMs
> - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops.
> - many with clearer green on black displays
> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed
> PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine)
> - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys)
> - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode)
> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed
> - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased.
> PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx=
> RAM)
> - 4.0 ROMs
> - molded plastic top
> 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke')
> - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound.
> - 4.0 ROMs
> PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM)
> - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns
> - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing.
> 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.)
> CBM 80xx
> - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case.
> - buisness xx key keyboard
> - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options.
> - 4.0 ROMs
> PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe)
> - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board
> - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface
> - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.)
> - Avalability of disk Based languages
>
> MOTHERBOARD SERIES
>
> 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT)
> IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1
> +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+
> ! # ! #!
> ! # ! #!
> ! # exp ! #! exp
> ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus
> ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #!
> ! # ! #!
> ! ! ! !
> ! ! ! !
> ! ROMS ! ! !
> ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! !
> ! ! ! !
> tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY !
> #1 # ! #2 # !
> +--------------------+ +--------------------+
>
> 4000/8000 series (12" CRT)
> IEEE user tape #1
> +------####-####--##-+
> ! # # tape
> ! # # #2
> ! R exp bus # !
> ! A #! 2000 Series
> ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k
> ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k]
> ! M R B !
> ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series
> ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k
> ! O S E !
> ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series
> ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k*
> ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k]
> +--------------------+
>
> WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET?
>
> The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few
> minor
> ones,
> you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of
> the PET
> (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way
> to
> distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the
> computer.
> Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the
> ROM
> version:
>
> *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as
> 2.0*
> ROMs.
> (only found in the older calculator
> keyboard style
> PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF
>
> ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs'
> sometimes
> referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending
> on
> who
> you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF
>
> *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work
> on
> large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF
>
> * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of
> beta
> development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs...
> Commodore
> on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or
> 2.0.
> For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as
> original
> and
> upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's
> numbering
> (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture).
>
> WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC?
>
> Original ROMs
> Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines.
> Arrays
> are
> limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no
> machine
> language
> monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory
> location
> 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for
> lower
> case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a
> while to
> compile them)
>
> Upgrade ROMs
> Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and
> capabilities
> very
> much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and
> IEEE-488
> disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!'
> displayed
> on the screen x number of times.
>
> 4.0 ROMs*
> Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY,
> HEADER,
> etc.
> Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys.
> Reserved
> DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window'
> formatting
> control
> characters.
> * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ
> and
> some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the
> large
> screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new
> video
> controller of the 12" display PETs.
>
> CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET?
>
> Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res
> graphics or
> sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course
> if it
> contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will
> be
> nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res
> grpahics,
> programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting
> because
> those features aren't present on the PETs.
>
> NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were
> converted
> PET games.
>
> HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET?
>
> Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into
> the
> memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as
> on
> the
> later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s,
> 128s,
> etc,
> will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the
> BASIC
> interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and
> the
> later
> Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see
> table x)
>
> There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into
> memory,
>
> Disk Track/Sector Editors:
> My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector
> editing
> utility
> to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk.
>
> This is
> not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a
> later
> time.
>
> BASIC Line Relocation Method:
> Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course
> you
> will
> need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or
> load in
> a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking'
> the
> higher
> located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you
> delete
> that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in
> memory.
>
> 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory.
> 2. Enter: 0 REM
> 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1
> for
> tape)
> 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS
> 1024
> 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed:
> M 0401 0408
> 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be
> moved;
> use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit
> numbers to
> read:
> :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00
> ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x)
> 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the
> monitor.
> 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program.
> 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper
> place.
> 10. Save the program.
>
> TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files:
>
> Saved under Start of BASIC
> Computer load load change
> Model/ addr. addr. bytes
> configuration dec. hex. to:
> ------------- ---- ----- -----
> PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A
> VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10
> VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A
> VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12
> Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08
> B-128 0003 $0003 *
> Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10
> Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20
> C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C
> C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40
>
> * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM
> memory,
> which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to
> convert
> without
> a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself.
> ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated.
>
> WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE?
> Tape Drives
> Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact
> you can
> hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside
> the
> case,
> on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2.
> Commodore Models:
> SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified
> for
> PET datasette cable/plug.
> C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case.
> 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light.
> Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models
> 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present)
> 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on
> 1541/71s
> 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s.
> 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s.
> 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side.
> 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk
> SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit.
> Commodore IEEE-488 8"
> 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...)
> Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives
> 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit
> 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit
> 3rd party
> MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and
> MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces.
> Modified 1541
> PRINTERS?
> Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers
> 4022
> 4023
> 8023
> Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options
> (Epson was one)
>
> HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE?
>
> You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk
> one
> after
> another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading
> address
> will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy
> utility
> available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called
> 'Unicopy'.
> Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim
> Butterfield)
> allows
> you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves
> the
> loading
> address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple
> file copies
> instead of just one program at a time).
>
> HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK?
>
> Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little
> utility I
> had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD
> each
> file off
> of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop
> it (or a
> disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name
> as one
> already on disk, disk full, or end of tape.
>
> HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET?
>
> Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not
> originally
> designed
> to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been
> developed but
> the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which
> generates....
> The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in
> piezo
> speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7)
>
> Sound Interface Diagrams here...
>
> WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET?
> For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade
> ROM
> PETs and
> it only varys by a few commands and features between original and
> 4.0
> ROMs.
> On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers
> into, vary
> quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for
> all
> the
> versions...
>
> HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR?
>
> The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is
> available on all
> PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a
> BRK
> instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0),
> most
> people
> enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0.
>
> WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR?
> G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C)
> L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08)
> S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress
> (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000)
> R - Display Processor Registers
> X - Exit Tiny Mon
> M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0)
> : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command)
> ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register,
> P
> command)
>
> CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET?
>
> Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The
> most
> popular
> (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's
> Supermon.
> There are versions available for all ROM revisions including
> original
> ROM PETS
> and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful
> memory/ML
> commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There
> are other
> versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information
> on
> them.
>
>
> I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM?
>
> The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined
> user
> had
> devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This
> interface
> allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible
> joysticks....
>
> Interface Diagram Here
>
> HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR
> VISA-VERSA?
>
> You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the
> Plus/4 and
> Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously
> established for
> their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the
> plug
> designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to
> record on
> tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other
> 8-bits,
> the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My
> sggestion would
> be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040
> or
> 2031, or
> copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128.
>
> WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT?
>
> This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically
> break a
> computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can
> potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other
> mechanical
> units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command
> somewhat
> commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry.
>
> History of 'the killer poke'
> When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display
> wasnt all
> that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could
> impove the
> character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would
> set
> the
> video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement
> of speed
> on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade.
> It
> was
> mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that
> relied
> on
> printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor
> Magazine,
> a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one
> of
> the
> 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert
> into
> their
> game "joust" to make it play faster.
>
> Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs,
> they
> had
> improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An
> unfortunate side
> effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster
> controller
> to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging
> the PETs
> video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident
> after
> our
> school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen
> starts to
> warp after about the third line and the display stops around the
> fifth, the
> keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only
> solution
> is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs
> were
> damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix'
> that would
> allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units
> from
> frying.
> Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this
> fix.
>
> Prevention
> Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running
> them
> on a
> large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first
> run
> it.
> I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this:
>
> POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32.
>
> The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is
> needed
> for the PET running the program, here is the code:
>
> IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32
>
> CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET?
>
> With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite
> singnal
> from
> the user port...
>
> Insert Video Diagram here....
>
> WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY
> DRIVE.
>
> WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET?
>
> WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS?
>
> IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET?
>
> I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488
> interface, the
> company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an
> acoustic
> modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have
> never
> actually seen one.
>
> Larry Anderson
>
> --
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/
> Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
>
This seems to be the favorite from what I can tell from the many
discussions of Mini's. If I could get a hold of one of these, what parts
do I need, what can I use it for and how much should I have to pay for it?
Please feel free to email me personally if you do not wish to clutter the
list.
Bill Girnius
thedm(a)sunflower.com
