test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be > pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has > picked it up and started working on it. classiccmp list member James Markevitch has been working on an OCR program as well, optimized for column formated input, like listings. I was just talking to Doron Swade (the person responsible for the Difference Engine at the British Science Museum) and he is interested in OCR of mathematical tables (also column-oriented like listings).

19 years, 9 months

Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest)

by ken＠seefried.com

From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> Sean wrote.... > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > > little I recall (many CPUs). >Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? Nope. Connection Machines were made by Thinking Machines, Inc., and they don't use Pentiums. They use gobs (up to something like 16k) of proprietary processors. The ASCI Red supercomputer built by Intel used PPros; see http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/aries/course/notes/ascii_red.pdf. I think the compute nodes were pretty off-the-shelf SMP PPro designs, so some might consider it off-topic.

19 years, 9 months

Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal)

by technobug＠comcast.net

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:45:47 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse <mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> wrote: >>> I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... > > Nor will you; as Fred already pointed out, it's a hexadecimal point. > That aside, they do exist, though they're rare. While practically > everything these days uses IEEE floating-point, which is binary-based, > there have been machines with floating-point arithmetic that worked in > other bases, like octal or hex. For them, speaking of the "decimal" > point in a number printed in hex notation makes perfect sense. In the embedded world, the use of fixed point arithmetic is rampant. If you use a fixed point DSP, the use of pointed hexadecimal makes life infinitely easier than having to continually convert between decimal and hex. The issues of underflow/overflow are immediately obvious. The last time I checked, those little buggers outnumber the number of IEEE floating-point PCs of all flavors ever made. >> As quick exercises, 1) what is the binary fraction for PI? By way of trusty Mathematica: Pi to 1000 decimal places converted to base 2: In[1]:= BaseForm[N[Pi,1000],2] Out[1]//BaseForm= " 11.001001000011111101101010100010001000010110100011000010001101001100010 01\ 100011001100010100010111000000011011100000111001101000100101001000000100 100111\ 000001000100010100110011111001100011101000000001000001011101111101010011 000111\ 011000100111001101100100010010100010100101000001000011110011000111000110 100000\ 001001101110111101111100101010001100110110011110011010011101001000011000 110110\ 011000000101011000010100110110111110010010111110001010000110111010011111 110000\ 100110101011011010110110101010001110000100100010111100100100001011011010 101110\ 110011000100101111001111110110001101111010001001100010000101110100110100 110001\ 101111110110101101011000010111111111101011100101101101111010000000110101 101111\ 110110111101110001110000110101111111011010110101000100110011111101001011 010111\ 010011111001001000001000101111100010010110001111111100110010010010010100 001100\ 110010100011110110011100100010110110011110111000010000000000111110010111 000101\ 000010110001110111111000001011001100011011010010010000011011000011100010 101011\ 101001110011010011010010001011000111111101010001111110100100100110011110 101111\ 110000011011001010101110100100011110111001010001110101101100101100001110 001100\ 010111100110101011000100000100001010101001010111011100111101101010100101 001000\ 001110111000010010110100101100110110101100111000011000011010101001110010 010101\ 011110010011000000001001111000101110100011011000000100011001010000110000 010000\ 101111100001100101001000001011110010001100010111000110110110011100011101 111100\ 011100111100111011100101100000110000000111010000110000000111001101100100 111100\ 000111010001011101100000001111010001010001111101101011100010101011101111 100000\ 110111101001100010100101100100111011110001010111100101111110110100101010 101100\ 000010111000110000011100110010101010010010111110011101010100101010110101 011100\ 101000101011101001000100110000110001001100011111010000001010001000000010 101011\ 100101000111001011010100010101010101011000100001011011010110100110011000 101110\ 000110100000100010100000111101000110011101010000101010100100001101010111 101111\ 100011100101110100110010011101100111110111000010100000100010110001101101 111101\ 111000010101000101011101010011100010101011101011101000001100000110001111 101101\ 100111001011100001111100001011010011011100001111001001100011110101011111 101011\ 010111010001100110110110000100100110011110101110001111010001100100101001 110000\ 001001010001001010110000110011101110011101110001111010010001001100001101 011010\ 010111011100110101111110001001011111111101000000110110110011000101000001 000011\ 001001101100001110110000000100111001100111110110010000110101001100100010 100100\ 001111100101011000110000001011101111011001000000000110010111011111000010 001011\ 101010111011110100110000101011101011011000111011100001001100010001100000 010111\ 010110110010100011011100010000010001110001001001111101000000111010011100 101101\ 010110011000101000011110110110101101111111100111000001111110100010000100 011100\ 100101110000010110100010010000010101001001000010000100000000001000110100 111001\ 000111100000100101010011110000111111001101101011110001000011100011001101 000010\ 000101111011011101001011011001001101001100111000011001001110001100001101 010111\ 101001110001000111100000110101001010001101000001101001011011000010101000 010111\ 101101000100101100000111110100111001010001010101101010001001100111010001 101101\ 110111011110000101101101100000100110111101000111100"\_2\) CRC

19 years, 9 months

Reviving VAXstation 3100-m38, was Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives

by oldcpu＠rogerwilco.org

Paul Thompson wrote: >I have a mips ultrix machine so my console doesn't work the same, but google around some. It >would be BOOT/R5:00000001 DKAxxx or something similar. I have a boot manual around >somewhere if google isn't forthcoming. I used your suggested boot command, but still got the same experience with the hang after the failed chdir's. I did try a whole sequence of things, though, based on your model: I eventually found a combination that worked: BOOT/R5:00000002 DKA300. I tried /R2:00000001, /R3:00000001, and /R4:00000001, which don't work, before hitting on this. Later, while doing some more scanning of my looks-pretty-complete ULTRIX docset, I learned that the correct command for single-user boot is: BOOT/R2 DKAxxx. BOOT/R3 DKAxxx is the multi-user boot string. I found this in the _Guide to System Shutdown and Startup_ section. > /etc/fstab would probably be the spot to get rid of the nfs mounts, > once single user mode is accomplished. I'll double check the /etc/fstab and modify it perhaps. In the end, though, looks like this system was setup with an extremely minimalist install of ULTRIX. There are a few commands in /bin, but almost every other useful tool is a slink to something on /usr, which itself is an NFS mount to some unknown box, long gone to me. I think I'll just install NetBSD (if I can get a larger drive!), use it as a MOP server to revive the other uVAXen, and finally get their disks imaged, which was the original goal. Of course, I do have a couple of Debian boxes that could serve the MOP stuff, but I'll still need to figure out what image I can use, probably a NetBSD. The only real trouble is that one or two of the other VAXen don't have ethernet installed. I do have a spare DEQNA, so I'll try that. Well, off to the lab! > > I have a 5400 with a R215F and a DECstation 5000/260. > I can provide some help with those for sure. > > Super! I'll no doubt lean on you extensively when I get to that system. Gotta get these VAXen imaged first, then I'll work on that system. With it's DSSI drives, it should be interesting to get them imaged. Given that there's not a xBSD port for this system, I can only hope that there is a working ULTRIX set up on it. Thanks. Jared

19 years, 9 months

Ontopic vs offtopic (WAS Re: Modern CP/M machine classic?)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

OK guys, I've been trying to stay out of this thread but I'm getting tired of it. It seems to be generally accepted that emulations and reimplementations of classic architectures are on topic. Can we please stop asking about everyone's pet implementation or remake? I'm sorry about creating noise with the pickle thread - let's get over it.

19 years, 9 months

looking for Darwin USIIi module (pushing OT)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

O.K. - this is pushing it alot, but I'd rather buy from someone I know than an e-bay unknown. I'm looking for an UltraSPARC IIi module for Sun Darwin boards (Ultra 5/10), 333MHz or 360MHz. Thought someone might have upgraded and have one in their junk box. $9+ shipping for 333, perhaps more for a 360? Scott

19 years, 9 months

QIC 80 drive needed

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Bear writes: >On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > >>I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so >>it's >>not very interesting. > >I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who >would find it quite interesting, myself included. Yes, and wouldn't you know it, I passed up a bunch of Spocks (IIx Macs) a few months ago because I didn't know what I'd do with them. Arrgh.

19 years, 9 months

Octal

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Tony Duell wrote: You only need the digits 0-7. At one time there was considerable resistance to using letters as digits, a second-hand book I bought last week thinkks it's most unsatisfactory to do this. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Billy: This brings up a question I had for the group. In the early '60's, hex was not very popular. And it hadn't become a standard to use A-F. I worked on one hex machine that used lower case i,j,k,l,m,n and another that used upper case U, V, W, X, Y, and Z. Does anyone remember using any other notations? There must have been many more. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tony Duell wrote: Word lengths tend not to be multiples of 3 bits. This means, for example you can't easily split 16 bit word into bytes, or combine 2 bytes into a word when you write them in Octal. In hex it's trivial. There were various split octal notations where you convert each part separately, but they get confusing fast. But basically it's just another way of writing numbers which is useful sometiimes (particularly if 'you're misisng 2 fingers' as Tom Lehrer put it. -tony ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- Billy: I took a C class many years back where the instructor started out with the statement that all computers use word sizes that are multiples of 8 bits. I couldn't help laughing. After class, I explained to her why and described the G-15, RPC-4000, etc. I feel a little that way now on the discussion of octal - how soon we forget. I want to mention to Tony that I've worked on computers for 40+ years that were multiples of 3. And at one time, they were the biggest and the fastest in the world. The CDC 1604, and 3400, 3600, and 3800 were 48 bits. The 924, 3100, 3200, 3300, and 3500 were 24 bits. The 140, 160, 160-A and 8090 were 12 bits. (The 160-G was 13 bits, but every family has one. Besides it was still an octal machine.) And of course, all the 6600 and 7600 machines were 60 bits. For 20 years, these machines dominated the large computer market place. All of these systems were octal oriented. Hex was never brought up in polite company. Then there's the DEC systems of 12 and 18 bits. And many others (3x bit) among the "7 Dwarves". Octal was widely used for the first two generations of computing. Hex is a Johnny-come-lately, with the prime populizar being the IBM 360. I've often wondered why dentists didn't use octal/hex to number teeth? 32 for a complete set, divided into 4 quadrants of 8. Billy

19 years, 9 months

cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 5

by dm561＠torfree.net

I really don't get what all this fuss is about; the 10 year rule has apparently not been in effect for some time and I haven't noticed any sudden flood of questions about WinXP, so why suddenly these demands to have it or some other rule (re-)instated? Seems to me until this present time-waster things were going along pretty well. When I tell my "normal" friends about the current discussion here and show them some of the messages, they can't believe they're meant seriously; talk about confirming the stereotype of computer geeks with too much time on their hands. Even though much of the traffic was of little or no direct relevance to me, I've enjoyed this list for five years or so because for the most part it was informative and interesting; any chance we could get back to talking about computers instead of rules any time soon? mike

19 years, 9 months

A little bit OT: an interesting POP

by spectre＠floodgap.com

It's a little bit ON-topic because I would never have discovered this if I wasn't playing with my C64's modem. Btw, for 6551 ACIA hackers, I seem to be having some trouble detecting carrier with my SwiftLink. I know that in the cartridge it is always tied on with pull-ups so that the 6551's receiver stays on, and so Dr Evil Labs/CMD directed DCD to come over DSR instead (this is internal to the cartridge). But all I get is the DCD "phantom" always-on bit when I check the register, even if I get a successful connect -- I never see the DCR line come up. Are there DB-25 to DE-9 cables that just don't connect DCD? While I was testing this out, I dialed the local AOL access number just to get something with a carrier so that I could watch the 6551 status register when it connected. Besides the DCD/DSR chachacha above, I got an interesting prompt (X'ed out the naughty bits) Level 3 Comm nasXX.XXXX UQKT2 Username:/login:/Login: Not your typical POP. I know who Level 3 is, and I do have an AOL login. It's interesting, however -- I was just expecting 8-bit "garbage" and not an actual prompt. I disconnected immediately since I wasn't interested in raising anyone's blood pressure at Level 3's security centre. What kind of protocol might this use (besides AOL's internal one, of course)? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Excellent guess, Kreskin. Wrong, but excellent. -- Space Quest 6 -----------

19 years, 9 months

Octal

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

Hi, Someones signiture (the "real programmers get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded me about Octal. I have heard of it, and know it's still used on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could be used for, and why it would still be used today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

19 years, 9 months

Octal

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Octal > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 00:36:59 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Seven segment displays are also ergonomic disasters - the military >> found it is far easier to read a seven segment display incorrectly >> than just about every other method. > >Does anyone else remmeber the 8 and 9 segment displays used by (IIRC) >Sharp in the early 1970s. They were vacuum flourescnet, single digit to >an envelope, made by Itron (IIRC). The segments were curved, and you got >much more natural-looking digits than from a 7 segment straight-bar >display. Of course the problem that 2 rapidly alternating digits can look >like something totally different remains. > >-tony I have two 12 digit bottles, 4 individual digits and a 40x2 bottle of the VF type and a working Sharp calc that uses said VF disply. Allison

19 years, 9 months

cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 4

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 15:34 -0500 9/1/06, Evan wrote: > >>>> So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made >anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if >the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still >off topic." > >>>>> -spc (I would think that would cover most of the complaints) > >Perfect! It shall be known as Conner's Law and supplants the 10-year-rule. > >Oops, that is for Jay to say. But I like it. :) As the new owner (well, I'm actually over 40, but you know what I mean :-) ) of a CoCo3, and being in possession of the Cloud-9 Website URL http://www.cloud9tech.com/ I'm not so sure I like this proposal. Granted, Cloud-9 is not fulfilling orders at the moment, but previously and in the future (I hope!) they sold systems, repairs, upgrades, and software for the Tandy Color Computer. Likewise, for my NeXT, there are http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/Black/ and http://www.blackholeinc.com/ At the very least, I propose the modification, "...nor is there any commercial support *other than third-party* to be had for it..." (satisfied customer of all of the above, no other relation) -- - Mark Cell Phone: 210-379-4635 office: 210-522-6025

19 years, 9 months

Octal

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

woodelf wrote: Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. > Cheers, > Chuck I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display device? --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, virtually all the Control Data systems displayed octal. The devices were varied, from projection displays (1604) to CRT vector drawn (6600). Some, such as the 8090 and 8092 had optional front panels to display either binary or octal. Octal use continued at CDC up through the 1700 machine, which was hex. Seymour finally went to hex on the Cray series. Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Billy

19 years, 9 months

Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

Hans wrote: > Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking > in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery [ ... ] > Would it be better phrased if I said: Pentums and alikes are > by now the majority of new x86 based embedded systems? LOL! Yes, I couldn't fault you for that :-) Tek scopes and ATMs come to mind, but there are others, I know. -- Pete

19 years, 9 months

OCR software

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> I've never actually met Doron, although his name tends to crop up an awful > lot. I think he's possibly up at our museum next Friday He's in California right now, spending some time with us at CHM. Very nice guy, who is excited about my work in software preservation.

19 years, 9 months

OCR software

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

This isn't strictly on-topic, but I believe it's important to many people here. I just learned about this on another list. HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has picked it up and started working on it. The code itself is available via SourceForge. Here is the announcement: http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/08/announcing-tesseract- ocr.html With all the document preservation activities going on these days, in our circles as well as others, this may be a significant development. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL

19 years, 9 months

more found boards

by rtellason＠verizon.net

Well, I didn't find the 8-bit VGA card that another list member was looking for, but did find some other stuff. Maybe some of you folks could help me figure out what I have here and what it might be good for, or even help relieve me of some of it... Got one 8-bit card here that also has an internal edge connector and I'm guessing it's a floppy interface -- there's a crystal, one big chip labeled Zilog Z765APS and what I'm guessing is a data separator chip socketed, looks like UM8326, and a bunch of LSTTL glue logic. Got one which is an 8-bit card only there's a little sticker near the card edge connector that says "pls plug into the 16 bits slot only" -- why would they do that? This one has a DB25M on the metal bracket, which is also labeled "Scanner Interface", is this supposed to be some kind of crude SCSI? There are a couple of chips labeled "SPOT" (a logo actually), and silkscreened on the board it says "SPOT Fototak 2E-Card". The note on the bag says "Parallel port" but I'm not sure that means anything. About four chips on the board (2 of which look like RAM) and a jumper block, 2x3 with 2 on there. The next one is labeled (in the foil) "ICS2110 Demo Board Rev. A" and sure enough there seems to be a square socketed chip labeled ICS2110 in there. An array of eight of what I'm guessing are RAM, some LSTTL, two 8-pole DIP switches, and four jumper blocks with one jumper on each. A TDA1545 ("Stereo Continuous Calibration DAC"), a couple of NE5532 op amp chips, a whole mess of capacitors, two trimpots (?) and two of what appear to be audio jacks at the metal bracket. This one's a 16-bit card. The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin connector (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the opposite end is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to apparently be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 ohm 10W (!) power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on "PC" hardware. This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode and a rather long number on it. Anybody know what these are, any of them? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

19 years, 9 months

Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986

by maynard＠jmg.com

Hello, I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order to get a completely flat scan of each page. Questions: - Is it wrong to destroy these magazines in order to scan them in for posterity? - Are they as rare as I think? That is, are there plenty of copies around such that historians and others interested in classic computing would not find this project of interest? - Is the copyright violation involved (on 25 - 30 year old magazines) really an issue? Thanks, --M

19 years, 9 months

Octal

by dm561＠torfree.net

-----------Original Message Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:37:30 -0700 From: "Billy Pettit" <Billy.Pettit at wdc.com> Subject: Octal Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Billy ----------Reply: By coincidence, I just happen to have my TI Programmer in front of me, in the process of replacing its NiCds. I used to use my Casio fx-451 (the solar powered one) a fair bit (easier than the TI to read & doesn't need an AC adapter), but lately I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). mike

19 years, 9 months

Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Aug 31 2006, 12:34, Hans Franke wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to > > that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek > > scope has an 8088 in it... > > After all, it doesn't doesn't realy matter what CPU is used, as > long as it does it's job as a black box controll system. > > But yeah, Pentiums (and alikes) are already the base for most new > embedded developments. "Most"? I don't think so. 2 billion ARM/XScale cores licensed in the last 12 months, and about a quarter that number of MIPS chips/cores. Pentiums don't even come close. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

19 years, 9 months

Fluke TK80A

by river＠zip.com.au

Hi, I'm checking through some of my old stuff and I have a Fluke TK80A, which appears to be a single board computer or training system. It has an 8080 CPU, 1K of RAM (2114), an EPROM and a membrane keypad, some 7-seg LEDs and a few switches. Other than the power connector it has no external connecters or sockets - so I assume it's a standalone system. Some of the LEDs and switches are stamped "ADDR 10000 Output Port" and other addresses that are over 10000 (ie 100F9)- which has me perplexed as the address limit of the 8080 is FFFF and the IO range only goes to FF? I'm going to check it over and apply some power to see what it does (if anything). However, if anyone has heard of this board or know something about it could you please illuminate me to its purpose? river -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/435 - Release Date: 31/08/2006

19 years, 9 months

Question about Z80 ISA bus board

by bob099＠centurytel.net

Hope to generate less heat this time. Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" Anyone have an ideal what it could be? Betronix made circuit board layout software.

19 years, 9 months

Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Aug 31 2006, 19:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 2) The matter of musical copying has cost many universities so much money > to settle, that several have the policy that illegal copying of music (and > for all I know, other materials) is grounds for dismissal (faculty) or > expulsion (students). It's similar here in the UK. Moreover, every photocopier in our University, and in others I've seen, has a notice beside it stating the rules, and spelling out what the allowed "fair use" exceptions are. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

19 years, 9 months

Octal

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:19:07 -0400 From: Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Octal >Lesse, While the calc on my NT4 box has most of the right stuff it >doesn't do logic (AND, OR, XOR, NOT) and if I ask for a "tape" the >printer is at the other side of the room. Feh! -------------------------- No problem; just move the printer! ;-> The Windows Calculator (am I breaking any rules here? :) does indeed have shortcomings, but there are some pretty useful others out there with all your logic functions, 4/8/16/32 bit modes, ASCII and unit conversions, etc. And for accounting stuff, a printing calc is indeed useful; use one myself for certain things. I was just musing that in general people seem to be more comfortable with calculators (even non-printing ones) than computer versions. (And looking for and correcting errors in long columns of figures is a lot more convenient in a spreadsheet.) >Often I need the result when NOT at a PC. Aw, c'mon Allison (and Tony); someone asked whether anyone still had a TI Programmer and I replied, yes, I do but generally use the Windows calculator instead (because of some of the same shortcomings you yourself mentioned); aside from the obligatory "*I* don't _use_ Winblows" replies there were one or two saying that it and computer calcs in general were "a pain" ("can't see the point") and I asked why. I didn't say that they were "better" or that you should throw your pocket calc away and use a laptop when you're away from your desk. Just that for the usual _programming_ stuff, converting bases & doing hex/octal/binary arithmetic, it's convenient to have a calculator right there on the same keyboard that you're programming on (and perhaps one or two people weren't aware that the Win Calc has hex & binary (and octal, the thread of this discussion) modes; I know that I didn't realize it until well into W98). Sheesh... mike

19 years, 9 months

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test-drb