On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 at 09:49:34 Chuck Guzis said
> It surprised me that the micro types took so long to figure basic
> things like SCCS and regression testing out.
I think I can partly explain that. For one thing, though we may all be
brilliant ;) we are not necessarily all that wise! Wisdom hopefully
accumulates with experience, and perhaps with the agony of recreating
something that was lost that should have been carefully preserved -
especially things like batch files, make files and little utilities written
for example because the available software tools could not produce
deliverable binaries in the desired form.
More seriously, most of the places I have worked for the past 45 years have
been what I call "Mom and Pop" operations with all the problems that
produces, including tight budgets and razor-thin resources. BTW, just
because it is a fair size company does not prevent it from being run in "Mom
and Pop" mode. The thin resources in my experience usually result in a very
fast transition to the next project once the current one is done, which does
not leave a lot of time for reflection about what all should be preserved.
Even the quite large company for whom I currently work, though sadly only
until next Friday, :( has run our soon-to-be-dissolved group on razor-thin
resources IMHO.
The other common problem I have seen is that usually no one in the chain
above my immediate manager has the vaguest idea as to the importance of the
work I have just completed. During some unfortunate periods, even he had no
clue!
I've been quite pleased for about the past 14 years to have had the use of
MKS and more recently VSS to provide an archive and history information on
the file servers. Allegedly these are backed up frequently off-site as
well, on tape cartridges I believe, though I have never had an occasion to
test that theory. At one time the IT guy would whine about how much space I
was taking up on the server and I would have to give him a list of folders
that could be written to CD's to make space on the file server. In at least
one case, I recall one of those was partly unreadable when I tried to access
it only maybe a year after it was burned. It has now been probably 10
years - anyone want to bet any of them are still readable? Since they are
sitting in my bookcase at work, anyone care to guess what will become of
them once I leave next Friday? The good thing is that they are all very old
versions and it probably does not matter all that much. No longer needing
to keep card/mag-tape/floppy backups has indeed been pleasant. (I sort of
hate to admit I once even had some punched paper tape backups.) The history
information the source control software provides is invaluable as well, even
though I do keep written notes regarding software changes as they are made.
I've been a bit amazed at how often I've found myself looking in the MKS and
VSS archives to search for the answer to a question like "Exactly when was
_this_ particular tiny change made". These are usually changes that seemed
almost inconsequential at the time, but turned out much later to have been
rather important.
Later,
Charlie Carothers
Relisted with reduced buy-it-now ebay item # 260354394197
'course since the last listing expired with no bids, you could
probably low-bid on this and get the two cards with no competition.
I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. A
shame, really.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
hello everyone,I have a working decmate3,
working well with floppies of os278 made with putr (thanks) ,I'd like to
have hardware documentation about that machine ,I found the vr101,the
lk201,but nothing about the cpu box,
also I'd like to find documentation about os278
that seems different from os8.thanks for your help
Alain Nierveze
492 All?e Montesquieu
33290 Le Pian Medoc
France
web:www.radio-astronomie.com
email:nierveze at radio-astronomie.com
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 Chuck Guzis said:
> Read about it:
>
> http://www.smpstech.com/filter00.htm
>
> Interestingly, the real-world example cited is the addition of an
> input filter to a PDP 11/40...
The part of this that really amazes me is where it says something like "long
power supply input lines" can also cause problems or oscillation. I suppose
this includes for example all the wiring in my house or at the office, over
which I have no control and very little detailed knowledge. I wonder if the
effective length of the AC input line is all the way back to the transformer
on the pole or wherever? If my guesses are correct then it is sort of scary
to plug in any SMPS anywhere! I would hope that most SMPS these days have
an input circuit that is reasonably immune to most of these problems, but I
certainly don't know that.
BTW, I have been reading the digest form of this group for a couple of years
now but I think this is the first time I have posted a reply of any sort.
If I goofed it up, profuse apologies in advance!
Later,
Charlie C.
Steven,
Yes, it sounds like they are looking for boot software. It should be on the
hard drive, but maybe it is corrupted or someone took it off.
Check with "Sharkonwheels" on _www.vintage-computer.com_
(http://www.vintage-computer.com) , he is more expert in Kaypros after 1983. I am more into the
1983 versions. The Kaypro 10 came after 1983.
You can post on this site and maybe someone will offer to buy them from you.
They could be used just for parts of course. Note if you have anything
else for them - software, accessories, cables, etc. That can help the sale,
along with any other info - where did you get them, past history if known, etc..
This is probably the best overall site for such vintage computers. I post
under GADFRAN.
Good luck.
Keep us informed on how you progress.
Frank
_www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org)
In a message dated 2/1/2009 2:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steven.alan.canning at verizon.net writes:
I rescued two ( more like 1 3/4 ) KAYPRO 10 machines headed for euthanasia.
I repaired the LVPS in the first unit and it comes up (?) but I think it is
waiting for something ( like a BOOT disk ? ). They both ( machines ) have
one half-height 5 1/4 floppy drive and one half-height 10 MByte hard drive.
So far both of the CPU boards do exactly the same thing, after RESET it puts
up the following prompt on the CRT;
* KAYPRO 10 v1.9e *
Anyone know what if anything it is waiting for ( I can't believe it wouldn't
BOOT off of the hard drive, but I don't know any better ) ?? The 10 MB Ready
light for the hard disk does come on ( for what it is worth...).
Better yet, anyone want a couple ( or one ) KAYPRO 10s to screw around with
and add to your collection ? They are built pretty tough ! Make an offer
that will cover my Super Bowl beer fund and you're in business ! Because of
their weight, probably limited to domestic USA shipping ( from Southern
CA ).
Best regards, Steven
**************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay
up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)
I've been working on some projects lately that require larger EPROM chips than the ones I have scavenged over the years. I am primarily looking for 8 megabit (27c080) chips, but I also need 4's and 2's as well. Anyone have some extra 'bugs' they would part with?
Thanks!
-Ian
> Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* long? I first
> heard of working prototypes sometime between '88-90.
Late 60s, maybe. IBM has been looking into holographic memory for a long time.
--
Will
LCD projection panel-Sharp QA 50
I HAVE ONE WITH A REMOTE, IF YOU WANT IT EMAIL ME OR CALL ME @ 203 530 6896
I WILL ONLY SELL THE WHOLE THING, NOT JUST THE REMOTE
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=htt…
ntent/products/features.aspx/laptops_great_deals?c=us%26cs=19%26l=en%26s=d
hs%26~ck=anavml)
>
>Subject: RE: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS
> From: "ROBO5.8" <robo58 at optonline.net>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 07:54:55 -0500
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
>
>Hi Chuck,
>
>Thanks for the reply.
>
>My IDE drive is about 2GB which is overkill and beyond the capacities of
>CP/M 2.2. So I'm only using 20MB of the drive for this project. My system
>uses Interrupts for Floppy but polling for the IDE.
Anything under 16drives of 8mb will fly (128mb) and not using the full
drive is not an issue.
>In the mid 70's and early 80's I did lots of CBIOS work and never ran into
>stack problems with CP/M. Maybe the code was simpler and I used fewer
>Calls, Pushes and Pop's.
>
>I am currently using a Private Stack for some of my CBIOS debug routines
>since they are more stack intensive.
>
>Did you find that you had to make any other changes to the
>Blocking/Deblocking code other than the recommended CP/M 2.2 patches for
>success?
I'dn look at drive selection and allocation vector (alloc) for a 8mb logical
drive that nees to be at least for 4kb allocation size should be at least
256bytes for each drive! You can make it smaller by making the allocation
chunks larger (8kb would only need 128bytes).
I've never had stack size issues for just disk IO but interrrupt handlers
yes always on creatign private stack. I generally develop the disk IO
with minimal polled IO to limit the number of things that can go wrong
and ones the disk IO is up then roll in the interrupt IO and added features.
Allison
>
>Thanks Robo
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
>On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
>Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:29 PM
>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>Subject: Re: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS
>
>On 30 Jan 2009 at 19:08, ROBO5.8 wrote:
>
>> I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive.
>>
>> I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as
>I
>> don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB).
>>
>> I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request
>> access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive
>0FF00h.
>>
>> I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what
>> they are doing to the console (slow but nice).
>>
>> I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an
>embedded
>> debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and
>9)that
>> is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking.
>
>What do you mean by "large"? I've run 2.2 with disks up to 20MB with
>no problems.
>
>CP/M's stack can't be depended upon for much space at all. Since my
>BIOS code was interrupt driven, every interrupt service routine
>started with a change to a private "system" stack. I recall having a
>lot of problems before doing that.
>
>Cheers,
>Chuck
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:28:52 -0800
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>On 30 Jan 2009 at 19:08, ROBO5.8 wrote:
>
>> I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive.
>>
>> I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as I
>> don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB).
>>
>> I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request
>> access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive 0FF00h.
>>
>> I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what
>> they are doing to the console (slow but nice).
>>
>> I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an embedded
>> debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and 9)that
>> is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking.
>
>What do you mean by "large"? I've run 2.2 with disks up to 20MB with
>no problems.
I have many systems with a minimum of 10mb drives and one has a
two 32mb and the other has 45mb SCSI/ However partitions are
limited to 8Mb as its' CP/M2.2.
>CP/M's stack can't be depended upon for much space at all. Since my
>BIOS code was interrupt driven, every interrupt service routine
>started with a change to a private "system" stack. I recall having a
>lot of problems before doing that.
>
Nominally one should preserve the stack and have one locally for that reason.
Howeer if the BIOS is using the minimal IO drivers (no interrupts) the stack
should be fine. Hoever is acc to drive "T" says he either has more than 16
partitions or he is crushing drive select.
Allison
>Cheers,
>Chuck
>
>
A friend forwarded me this YouTube link today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WCTn4FljUQ
It's a KRON Channel 4 news (San Francisco, CA) report from 1981 about
the San Francisco Examiner (and others) making themselves available
online via BBS. My favorite line: "Of the estimated two to three
thousand home computer owners in the Bay Area..." Ah, those were the
days!
I spy a Tandy TRS-80 Model I, a TRS-80 Color Computer! But I'm mainly
interested in the Space-Age looking terminals being used by the SF
Examiner staff in the video. They've got swooping, rounded corners,
white shells, and what looks like an integrated 9 or 10 inch green
phosphor display. Screenshot is here:
http://www.loomcom.com/misc/examiner_terminal.jpg
Anyone know what kind of terminal this is? I'd freaking LOVE to have
one of those on my desk.
-Seth
> There was
> also a 4115 that used a raster display instead of the vector display.
-
4115/4125 uses an x86 processor
At one time, I had the full set of manuals for the 4115, while the company
I was working for was trying to write an emulation for it. The service manual
in particular seems very hard to find now.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:07:20 -0600
From: John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com>
Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420 at mail.threedee.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote:
> >I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document Apple II VisiCalc.
> >I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them still boots (1983?)
> >and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and 1981) work too.
> >I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin.
> >Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers?
> >The answer is because no one can find the sources.
>
No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through
stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the
source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, all
the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE,
preserves arguably the most important bits.
- John
In the case of Personal Software, I believe Lotus bought them to reduce
competition,
not to preserve VisiCalc. At the time, people seldom think about the
historical significance
of source documents. The Intel 4004 schematics would have been lost if
it hadn't been for
some Intel engineer who realized they needed to be saved. True, there
are some engineers
who take stuff home and store it in their basement, but in the case of
the 4004, Federico
Faggin couldn't hold on to any schematics when he left Intel because he
was going off to
found Zilog and had to protect himself legally. The problem with
packrats is that, even
when you are unusually organized, like Bob Frankston, you still end up
with boxes that
are mis-labeled. Even Hewlett Packard has thrown out some important
engineering
documentation. When the calculator division moved from Santa Clara to
Corvalis,
the threw out dumpsters full of drawings on their very first RPN
calculator, the 9100.
--Tim
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:08:15 -0800
From: Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com>
Oh, I completely understand how it happens (after having seen it
happen a few times). Typically all of the source for a project is
kept on a server(s) that run the SCM (source code management) system.
Yes, they are backed up but in many cases it's just a rotating backup
set (ie they get overwritten). When the project is EOL'd usually the
server(s) are either re-tasked (involving a complete re-install and
wipe) or scrapped (which involves wiping). The backups are usually
scrapped at that time as well. Almost no one does an archive of those
backups. If they do, then that's were to look because they are kept
in an off-site location for disaster recovery. In many cases the off-
site storage is mostly write-only (ie tapes/whatever go in but are
never asked for and not purged).
Most of this stuff gets "lost" because of apathy on the part of the
owners rather than malicious intent.
TTFN - Guy
People have always been sloppy about old backups.
Even companies like Thinking Machines, who were
careful and kept off-site backups using Iron Mountain, or
somesuch, when the company went out of business, all these
tapes ended up in a dumpster. (I know this for a fact).
--Tim
P.S. Back in the 70's version control systems were rare.
Personal Software's backups were done on floppies.
I have acquired a GRiD 1109 laptop from 1983(?), but the screen mostly shows only every-other scan line.
Schematics may help, but I haven't found any.
Does anyone have a screen (or more) to donate?
Thanks-
Steve.
P.S. The 1109 circuit boards are different than those of the 1101.
Anyone know the differences between the two?
From: "Jeff Walther" <trag at io.com>
Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc
What I find particularly irritating, is that the loss of the source code,
arguably, defeats the implicit reason that copyright and patent protection
exists in the first place. The U.S. constitution states:
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for
limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their
respective writings and discoveries;"
Now one could argue that securing the exclusive rights promotes progress
all by itself. But the fact that it is meant to be for a limited time,
implies to me that at some point the full benefit of that advancement
should become available to everybody. If no copy of the source code is
required to be filed with the government, then the copyright and/or patent
laws are not securing the benefits of that progress for society at the end
of the exclusive period.
Patents have become similarly lame. Chips get patented with no
description language at any level required to be filed. Sigh.
Bad congress. Bad bad congress. No cookie.
Jeff Walther
I don't think it ever occurred to our founding fathers that "authors"
would copyright something with no intent of ever publishing it. Or, in
the case of software, publishing the binaries, but not the sources.
Even the pre-1976 requirement of copyright registration was perverted in
the case of software. The Copyright Office allows you to submit only a
fraction of what was being copyrighted, and you can block out parts that
you consider trade secrets. So much for the public good.
--Tim
> I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff.
DN3xxx et. al. are just coming out of the bottom of the bathtub curve.
Same with VME Sun 3 and 4.
Most of the mid-80's workstations have been recycled now.
There is also the little problem of software for them, if you don't want
to run NetBSD.
To be honest, the first lot with the disk controller and network card
were of more use than the memory and video card.
Keeping Apollo gear going is going to be tricky. At least the Sun 3 hardware
docs have mostly leaked out. I've heard of very little detailed Apollo HW
info out there. A couple of years ago, I was trying to get the guy who was
working adding more driver support to BSD to get the info he had reverse
engineered, but didn't get anywhere.
I've been in contact with the person responsible for Apollo product support
at HP about what hardware info they got for the machines, and it doesn't sound
like much made it out there from the east coast.
Similar things happened when HP took over the 68k-based 1500 product line from
TI.
Since I'm not aware of your electronics/troubleshooting knowledge,
I thought I'd make mention of one of the known BA23/BA123 issues.
When the boxes were first introduced, they were shipped with
backplane power cables that had a major design flaw.
They used IDC-style connectors on each end of what was
basically a heavy-gauge ribbon cable.
The Insulation Displacement Connectors tended to add
significant resistance to the connection, and couldn't carry
their rated loads. Depending on the load, the connectors
would either discolor from the heat. . . . start to melt,
or, in extreme cases, start on fire.
An FCO was issued, and the "proper" power cables have
individual wires, and crimped-on pins.
I don't think it would be unreasonable to speculate that,
if your particular power supply had an old-style connector at some point
(which chose to melt) that the solder joints for the header could have
been compromised from the heat. Check the circuit board
where the header is soldered, to make sure there aren't any
cold or bridged solder joints. A shorted pin could prevent
the power supply from coming up. . .
If you have the old ribbon-style power connectors,
I would recommend replacing them immediately.
I "rolled my own" with parts readily available at
MCM Electronics. I'm sure suitable connectors
could also be obtained from Jameco, Digikey, etc.
T
Hi,
I just bought a Tektronix 4014-1, almost unused, for 10 euros !
The guy who sold it to me told me that it was connected to a
"computer" which was located under a desk. He had removed the cards of
this "computer", and had them stored, he gave them to me with the
4014.
The inside of the 4014 and those unkown to me cards are displayed there :
http://picasaweb.google.fr/sur.le.tas/Tektronix40141?feat=directlink
(the "loupe" button on the top right might be useful).
Also, in the 4014 docs, it seems I have one extra cards in the 4014,
maybe the first one from the left ?
Any idea what the other cards are ?
Thanks
--
Stephane
Paris, France.
>Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:07:20 -0600
>From: John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com>
>Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc
> At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote:
>
>
>> >I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document
>> Apple II VisiCalc.
>> >I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them
>> still boots (1983?)
>> >and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and
>> 1981) work too.
>> >I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin.
>> >Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers?
>> >The answer is because no one can find the sources.
>>
>
> No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through
> stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the
> source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, all
> the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE,
> preserves arguably the most important bits.
What I find particularly irritating, is that the loss of the source code,
arguably, defeats the implicit reason that copyright and patent protection
exists in the first place. The U.S. constitution states:
"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for
limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their
respective writings and discoveries;"
Now one could argue that securing the exclusive rights promotes progress
all by itself. But the fact that it is meant to be for a limited time,
implies to me that at some point the full benefit of that advancement
should become available to everybody. If no copy of the source code is
required to be filed with the government, then the copyright and/or patent
laws are not securing the benefits of that progress for society at the end
of the exclusive period.
Patents have become similarly lame. Chips get patented with no
description language at any level required to be filed. Sigh.
Bad congress. Bad bad congress. No cookie.
Jeff Walther
> Ye gads... If that's the leading publication on Computer History, it
> looks like the market could stand another. Something more along the
> lines of the excellent UK magazine "Retro Gamer" perhaps, with
> articles written by (and for) normal (if a bit fannish) humans and
> lots of pictures of old hardware and stuff.
One thing I have learned working at a museum is there is a lot more
to the discipline of the history of computing than being a fan and
having nostalgia for the subject. I was fortunate to have the chance to
have long talks with Doron Swade on what it is like to be a curator at
an institution that has existed for hundreds of years, and the responsibility
that is involved with that position.
There was a very good article on the problems of creating an institution
to preserve computing history (in particular, the Charles Babbage Institute)
"Arthur Norberg, the Charles Babbage Institute, and the History of Computing"
in the Oct-Dec 2007 issue of the Annals, in particular, the collections policy
and focus that they created at CBI.
"Retrocomputing", nostalga, and eye candy seem to be more of what you are
interested in, than the discipline of historical preservation and interpretation,
which is where the Annals and other journals on the history of technology are
focused.
Ye gads... If that's the leading publication on Computer History, it
looks like the market could stand another. Something more along the
lines of the excellent UK magazine "Retro Gamer" perhaps, with
articles written by (and for) normal (if a bit fannish) humans and
lots of pictures of old hardware and stuff. You could call it "Classic
Bits" or something actually catchy. I'll bet the inhabitants of this
list could cook up a better product almost overnight.
Mike
Recently, I've run across some circuit boards with damaged connector fingers. Some are badly scratched and worn, the gold plating almost gone, and others are actually corroded - the copper has corroded, possibly due to previous damage to the gold plating.
The circuit boards in question are the ones in Nintendo cartridges, but the same problem applies to any printed circuit board edge connector.
The scratched/worn connectors seem to still work, at least most of the time. The corroded ones wouldn't work until I cleaned off the corrosion. Not an easy thing to do - I ended up resorting to Brasso, a brass polish. Now, this is NOT the thing to use to clean edge connectors! DON'T DO IT! It WILL take the plating off. In this case, the plating was already gone, and the copper track underneath was corroded. Cleaning the corrosion off with the Brasso, and subsequent cleaning with alcohol to clean off the Brasso, removed the corrosion leaving a shiny copper track. The board worked fine, but for how long? How long until the corrosion comes back, or the copper oxidizes?
Is there any way to repair or replate fingers like this? Obviously, tinning them with solder would prevent oxidization, but this would make that 'finger' much too thick, and risks damaging the connector it plugs into. (Operators loved to "fix" burnt edge connectors on arcade boards like this, and it works for a while, until you go to unplug and replug it, and the destoyed connector no longer mates with the board correctly.)
Just something I thought that others might have an input on - I mean, in this case, these Nintendo cartridges are not worth the effort of any complicated repair, but it raised the question in my mind, and I know I've run into this on computers before.
So, any thoughts?
-Ian