29 Jan
2009
29 Jan
'09
10:54 a.m.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:07:20 -0600
From: John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com>
Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420 at mail.threedee.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote:
No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through
stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the
source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, all
the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE,
preserves arguably the most important bits.
- John
In the case of Personal Software, I believe Lotus bought them to reduce
competition,
not to preserve VisiCalc. At the time, people seldom think about the
historical significance
of source documents. The Intel 4004 schematics would have been lost if
it hadn't been for
some Intel engineer who realized they needed to be saved. True, there
are some engineers
who take stuff home and store it in their basement, but in the case of
the 4004, Federico
Faggin couldn't hold on to any schematics when he left Intel because he
was going off to
found Zilog and had to protect himself legally. The problem with
packrats is that, even
when you are unusually organized, like Bob Frankston, you still end up
with boxes that
are mis-labeled. Even Hewlett Packard has thrown out some important
engineering
documentation. When the calculator division moved from Santa Clara to
Corvalis,
the threw out dumpsters full of drawings on their very first RPN
calculator, the 9100.
--Tim
I am looking
for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document Apple II VisiCalc.
I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them still boots (1983?)
and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and 1981) work too.
I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin.
Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers?
The answer is because no one can find the sources.
29 Jan
29 Jan
11:08 a.m.
New subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc)
On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Tim McNerney wrote:
At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote:
No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived
through stories like this, I still shake my head and can't
understand how the source code gets lost. All these
corporations, all the lawsuits, all the programmers, all the
marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE,
preserves arguably the most important bits.
Oh, I completely understand how it happens (after having seen it
happen a few times). Typically all of the source for a project is
kept on a server(s) that run the SCM (source code management) system.
Yes, they are backed up but in many cases it's just a rotating backup
set (ie they get overwritten). When the project is EOL'd usually the
server(s) are either re-tasked (involving a complete re-install and
wipe) or scrapped (which involves wiping). The backups are usually
scrapped at that time as well. Almost no one does an archive of those
backups. If they do, then that's were to look because they are kept
in an off-site location for disaster recovery. In many cases the off-
site storage is mostly write-only (ie tapes/whatever go in but are
never asked for and not purged).
Most of this stuff gets "lost" because of apathy on the part of the
owners rather than malicious intent.
TTFN - Guy
I am
looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and
document Apple II VisiCalc.
I have three versions of the Apple II software. I
know one of
them still boots (1983?)
and have some confidence that the other two
versions (1979 and
1981) work too.
I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and
Dan Bricklin.
Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers?
The answer is because no one can find the sources.
In the case of Personal Software, I believe Lotus bought them to
reduce competition,
not to preserve VisiCalc. At the time, people seldom think about
the historical significance
of source documents. The Intel 4004 schematics would have been lost
if it hadn't been for
some Intel engineer who realized they needed to be saved. True,
there are some engineers
who take stuff home and store it in their basement, but in the case
of the 4004, Federico
Faggin couldn't hold on to any schematics when he left Intel because
he was going off to
found Zilog and had to protect himself legally. The problem with
packrats is that, even
when you are unusually organized, like Bob Frankston, you still end
up with boxes that
are mis-labeled. Even Hewlett Packard has thrown out some important
engineering
documentation. When the calculator division moved from Santa Clara
to Corvalis,
the threw out dumpsters full of drawings on their very first RPN
calculator, the 9100.
--Tim
8:14 p.m.
New subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - AppleII VisiCalc)
I would think when companies merge the source code for applications the new
owner doesn't want is generally trashed so they don't have to support it.
Symantec seemed to be good about buying up companies to remove competition
and bury applications that didn't fit into their product line.
8:17 p.m.
New subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc)
An awful lot of source code gets lost in the process of Chapter 7
bankruptcy liquidation or acquisition by another firm. In the latter
case, the acquiring firm is interested mostly in the customer base
and doesn't much care about existing products, which inevitably end
up in the dumpster. In the case of bankruptcy, I've never seen an
acution where source code was part of the assets being sold.
For the first product I did for a 5150 PC, I used a schematic capture
package called Schema by Omation. Very nice for the time,
particuarly with Hercules graphics. As I understand things, Omation
was acquired by Accel (makers of TangoPCB) and Schema disappeared.
Well, now I've got a floppy with my work that might as well be in
Linear B.
Cheers,
Chuck
30 Jan
30 Jan
3:18 p.m.
New subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc)
From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:17 PM
For the first product I did for a 5150 PC, I used a
schematic capture
package called Schema by Omation. Very nice for the time,
particuarly with Hercules graphics. As I understand things, Omation
was acquired by Accel (makers of TangoPCB) and Schema disappeared.
Well, now I've got a floppy with my work that
might as well be in
Linear B.
At least some of us can read Linear B (OK, with a dictionary, but still...)
Rich Alderson
Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
(206) 342-2239
(206) 465-2916 cell
6:55 a.m.
Tim McNerney wrote:
No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or
lived through
stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the
source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits,
all the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one,
NO ONE,
preserves arguably the most important bits.
One classic case of lost source code was for TSX-PLUS. Assuming that
the information from S&H was correct, then at some point after the last
(V6.5 in 1991) version was frozen, the system which held the source
code failed. For reasons which were never explained, an off-system
tape or other media backup was not available to recover the files.
It was established that hard copy of the source files existed, but it may
have been from an earlier (V6.4) version. Whatever the actual story,
evidently the source files were never securely archived even while
the product was still actively being sold and shortly after it had been
released.
Many PDP-11 software releases also suffered the same fate, especially
the old versions prior to 1980. While I have almost no knowledge of
RSTS/E and RSX-11, at least for RT-11, as far as I am aware, all of
the binary distributions since V04.00 from 1980 have been correctly
(or at least sufficiently) archived. A few of the earlier (V3.x) binary
distributions are also archived but with less than 100% of the files
having been saved. Even some of the layered products have survived
along with the source files for some of the binary distributions of RT-11.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
5:03 p.m.
New subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc)
For reasons which were never explained, an off-system
tape or other media backup was not available to recover the files.
Probably because they were not mainframe people.
Of course, getting old stuff out of mainframe people has its own set
of problems. The big one is spelled with an "LAW" at the start and a
"YERS" at the end.
--
Will
5578
days inactive
5580
days old
6 comments
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