- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 12:42 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one >word: "hogwash". My HP3000 (with HD's and cart tape) is in a case slightly larger (wider, possibly a bit deeper) than a standard full tower. The 9-track tape drive, of course, is in it's own 6-ft enclosure, but if I were smart, I could fit all the other 3000 bits inside the (empty) bottom. Hmmm... Wonder why I never thought of that before? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 8 months

1
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Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others...

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 03:57 PM 7/23/97 +0000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Lucky for me the man who runs it is a nice guy. And for about $100-200, I >may be able to get my hands on an 8550. Assuming I can re-assemble it, >it's been taken apart. This may be a real challenge. The Nautilus based systems (8800, 88x0, 8700, 85x0) have an interesting back plane using zif sockets. When the systems run they run, but when they go bad, they're horrible to fix. I spent a fair part of the last three years doing user maintenance on 8800s and an 8820 and I can tell you now that fixing these beasts can be a real pain. In particular, the diagnostics are unreliable at best. Even the professionals have problems, we had a Digital maintained 8800 die and after two weeks of three engineers they finally decided to ship a new system down from Sydney. Fortunately we managed to convince management to upgrade to newer systems. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways"

28 years, 8 months

1
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FWD: RSTS/E Manuals

by kyrrin＠wizards.NOSPAM.net

Fellow in SoCal's trying to get rid of some worthwhile-looking books. Anyone interested? -=-=- <snip> -=-=- I was surprised to receive no response whatsoever to my original post. When I started collecting PDPs, I grabbed all the documentation I could get my hands on. Maybe nobody runs RSTS any more. Maybe V9.0 manuals are too old. In any case, the manuals I described in my original post (below) go in the trash if not spoken for by Friday July 25. ---------- Greetings. Unfortunately, my interest in PDP-11s exceeds my available storage. I picked up a partial set of RSTS/E manuals a while back, but find I now need the space they occupy. These are the standard orange DEC binders, and most of the contents are still in shrink wrap. The partial set is as follows: ---------- System Management (Volume 2) System Manager's Guide System Usage (Volume 3) System User's Guide Guide to Writing Command Procedures Utilities (Volume 4) Utilities Reference Manual Introduction to the EDT Editor SORT/MERGE User's Guide RUNOFF User's Guide Utilities (Volume 4A) EDT Editor Manual Utilities (Volume 4B) Task Builder Reference Manual Programmer's Utilities Manual RT11 Utilities Manual TECO User's Guide BASIC-PLUS (Volume 5) BASIC-PLUS Language Manual System Programming (Volume 6) Programming Manual MACRO Programming (Volume 7) System Directives Manual ODT Reference Manual MACRO Programming (Volume 7A) MACRO-11 Language Manual RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide RMS (Volume 8) RMS-11: An Introduction RMS-11 User's Guide RMS-11 Utilities ---------- These manuals are located in Southern CA. Shipping would be pretty expensive, and I would prefer not to have to pack them (e.g. preference granted to those who could pick them up). I am not looking for much (if anything) in return for these; I really just want them gone and suspect someone might need them. If you want me to pack and ship them, though, I will probably want something to offset my time and trouble (and shipping, of course). I am always looking for Q-bus hardware, and right now specifically for S-box (BA213) cabinet kits for a KA650 and a VCB02. Please send email to slinker(a)primenet.com if interested (NOTE: The email address in the header has an underscore "_" appended to foil spammers). Jeff. -- Jeff Shirley slinker(a)primenet.com Remove the underscore ("_") from the end of my email address when replying ** UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL/PROMOTIONAL EMAIL IS NOT ACCEPTED ** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ADDRESS ALTERED TO FOIL SPAMMERS: See below for address... Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin-at-wizards-dot-net http://www.wizards.net/technoid "...Spam is bad. Spam wastes resources. Spam is theft of service. Don't spam, period..."

28 years, 8 months

12
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Apple Lisa Owners??

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Welcome! Which Lisa model do you have? I have a Lisa 2/10 that is almost working. The hard drive install of Sun's version of MacWorks is apparently corrupt and it doesn't boot completely (or needs a boot floppy that I don't have). I'm loathe to fix the MacWorks install because I'd rather run the Lisa Office System. Problem is, the Lisa Office System is serialized, and, once installed, it will only reinstall on the same Lisa. There are some outfits around that will sell copies of the uninstalled disks for $170, which is a bit steep. I have an acquaintance at a local computer recycler who has a set and is willing to let me borrow them, but I'll have to set up a PC with two 720K drives (which I don't have handy) and a Copy II Option Board (which I do have) to dupe them. Kai > ---------- > From: Rob Bedeaux[SMTP:bede0005@gold.tc.umn.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 7:25 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? > > Hi all: > > This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is > > great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic > > Computers!! > > I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there > > also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office > System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is > > what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get > rid > of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in > Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But > what > about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any > cards > that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card > was > available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else? > Let's > see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited > to > the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember > the > name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers? > Well > thanks to anyone with any info > > Rob >

28 years, 8 months

3
2
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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by mpsayler＠cs.utexas.edu

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 ^^^^ From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is that win 1895? :-) m@ [...] > My experience is that most computer hobbiests/hackers/engineers/etc. > tend to keep everything, especially when they have used to the stuff > before. As such, most people I know would much rather give it away than > throw it away ... and unless they have already given it away, they > probably still have it :)! -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler(a)cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */

28 years, 8 months

1
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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one word: "hogwash". For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but usually do not top 100 pounds or so. Yes, collecting them does take creative space management. I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good call! I hadn't thought of that one... Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with space left over. I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter method" of space management. The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 8 months

7
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News from Apple

by dastar＠crl.com

Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? (sorry, mostly off-topic but, hey, it's STEVE JOBS!!!) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 8 months

5
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HHCs (bad news)

by dastar＠crl.com

I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. Due to a lack of communication within the company that had the units, they were all, in the words of Mike Westin who was the go-between in the deal, "shit-canned". The company simply threw them out because they did not know there was an offer tendered. On the positive side, there are still roughly 50-75 units still left within the company that are still being used by employees, and will be so for about the next two months. Mike is currently developing a new product for the company, at which time they will no longer use the remaining units, and they will then, hopefully, be sold to us. So for now, no HHCs. Its disappointing, mostly because the thought of all these nice systems being simply thrown out is a damn shame. However, we may yet be able to acquire the remaining units in a couple month's time. Stay tuned. Sorry all. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 8 months

2
2
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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by ard＠siva.bris.ac.uk

> Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who >care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- >term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you >don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this >happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.) Depends on the micro. While IMHO it's true that Apple ]['s, PET's, TRS-80, etc are not exactly hard to find, there are some rather rare machines, like the Tandy Deluxe CoCo (something like 2 exist), a prototype Acorn that I can't remember the name of (M4???), the HH tiger (Prototype only), etc that are somewhat hard to find. It's quite possible that the next one of those that you see is the last! >| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony

28 years, 8 months

1
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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by ard＠siva.bris.ac.uk

>For those still confused, the 1/2 RK07 was just the actual drive >mechanism. An entire RK07 is about 4 feet tall, the bottom is which is >basically empty. One design of RK07 stand can be modified to mount the drive about 12" hight than it should be. In my case this gave me a mounting for an EMI magtape and 4 flip-chip backplanes with no extra floor area. Not quite original DEC, of course.... > >William Donzelli -tony

28 years, 8 months

1
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FWD: RSTS/E Manuals

by ard＠siva.bris.ac.uk

[...] >And there are some minis in there amongst the micros: > >An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no >memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, >though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one >day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the >moment but am keeping my eyes open. I found one of those in a skip (literally!) a few years back, and was allowed to rescue it. Mine came as the CPU box with 32K (I think) core, a lot of I/O cards (or at least I assume that's what they are), a paper tape reader and a somewhat mangled cartridge disk drive (1 fixed platter, one RK05-like cartridge). Alas no manuals. It looks like it could be got to run again, but as I know nothing about it, I've not put any time in on it yet.... > >Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably >learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I >am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot >of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or >maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't >know. > >But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things >that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know >anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower >selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected >learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And >for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be >micros than minis. I swap between the 2 'modes'. Sometimes I'll get a machine because I know what it is, and because I remember it. The Tandy M4 I bought a couple of weeks ago fits in here - I grew up on a Tandy Model 1, and remember the M4 coming out. I wanted one then, but could never afford it. Now I can, and can run those programs from 80-micro.... But more often I get a machine because I have no idea what it is, but it looks interesting. The P850 (the machine that seriously started me collecting) fits in here. As do the PERQs - I thought it was a 68000 box when I got the first one, and was amazed to see a soft-microcoded CPU. Learning from such a machine is great fun... [...] >(Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of >hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I I certainly grab schematics and printsets without the hardware that goes with them - you never know what will turn up later.... >mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them. >And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in >terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.) It's not that hard. What started me off was getting a relatively simple minicomputer - I'd recomend either the PDP8/e or the PDP11/05 as a starter, and sitting down with the machine, the technical manual, and the printsets. I single-stepped the machine, and watched how it executed an instruction with a logic probe. I where the microcode went, what gates were enabled, etc, and related it to the diagrams in the manual. After a couple of days I could understand most of the instructions.... >Got any pointers to where we could learn more? Yep... CPU Technical manuals from the late 1960's - early 1970's. Most of those include a gate-level description of the CPU operation. It helps a lot to have the machine in front of you, though. > >-Frank McConnell -tony

28 years, 8 months

1
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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail remarked: > Sure, I'll just needlessly add to my current mountain of debt. > There is a practical limit to what any individual can do or be > expected to do. I'm not going to over-burden myself over a hobby. Sorry about that, Sam. I didn't think the cattle-prod was turned on. :-) ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 8 months

1
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FWD: RSTS/E Manuals

by fmc＠reanimators.org

William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> writes: > > An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no > If you ever want cards in the future, I would start looking now. HP > circuit boards are COMPLETELY gold plated (even under the green coating), > and are loved by scrappers everywhere. Good point. If you want to see something really scary in that regard, open up an HP 9000 series 5xx and look at the CPU boards. Those *really* look like gold, closer to solid than plated. I was looking (mostly for the memory) a bit more intensely a couple of years ago, and found that 2100 parts were also in demand to keep running systems running. > I must agree with you here. DEC makes great stuff (mostly), but so do > some of the other guys. Personally, I am starting to shift into the IBM > world, as it really has been ignored by historians (other than Paul > Pierce (who must be laughing at us weenies and our problems storing minis > and micros) and IBM itself). Yep. The mini world was kind of wide there for a while. I expect some of those machines really are gone forever. Has anyone here ever heard of a company called Digital Systems Corporation, based somewhere in (I think) the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC in the late 1970s, maybe into the 1980s? I worked on something of theirs once, called a Galaxy/5. Never heard of it or them since. Come to think of it, there could be good reasons for that, and it could be a good thing. Nah...we've got to keep the failures around too -- learning from mistakes is so much better when they're someone else's mistakes. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 8 months

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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail was rumoured to have remarked: > [...] Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact > is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or > transportation charges? Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.) > [...] that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife > could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. [...] > She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. Oddly enough, Diana and I have been together now for the better part of a decade, and while she occasionally grumbles about my hobby, she supports it because she knows that it's important (not just to me, but for a larger cause as well). I believe the use of the term "crap" comes from fundamental misunderstandings of our common computing history. Sad. > Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems > (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living > space for the hobby. It all depends upon how seriously we take our hobby, doesn't it. (That was merely an observation, _not_ an editorial comment!) For what it's worth, an IMSAI is just about twice the size of a pdp11/23. And less than a quarter of the CPU power. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 8 months

2
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Lonesome Minicomputer Owner

by impeesa＠arrakis.es

Hello all, I own a Honeywell 716 Minicomputer, in running order. It?s a general purpose 16-bit machine, with 128 KB of ferrite core memory, a cassette tape device, a front panel as main console, and an ASR-33 Teletype as operator's console. There were other peripherals, such as line printers, fixed disks, card reader-puncher, high-speed paper tape reader, 9" tape decks... but I only own the basic system. The system was designed (aprox.) in June 1972. Has anybody ever heard about such machine? I?ve spent some time looking through the net, and looks like I?m the only one I own that system. Perhaps Honeywell didn?t made lots of them, like DEC did with PDP's. I?ve read somewhere (don?t know if it?s true) that first nodes in Arpanet were Honeywell DDP 516. I think my system is the next model (Honeywell DDP 716). In fact, mine can execute H-516's instructions set. I also heard U.S.Navy used these systems for shot calculations. If anybody has any information about the Honeywell DDP 516 or 716 machines, please email me. I?m looking for somebody who worked with those systems or even better, somebody who owns one of them. Thanks in advance. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garc?a ** Computer collector ** mailto: impeesa at arrakis dot es

28 years, 8 months

2
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DG Hardware Available

by carl.friend＠stoneweb.com

In mail ID number 9707221139.AA13838(a)alph02.triumf.ca, Mr. Tim Shoppa laments: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here in B.C. - machines with full > toggle-and-light front panels - and I'm unable to give them away. This is a crying shame. For plain beauty, the S/130 rivals, and to some, outranks even the much-vaunted IMSAI. For raw speed in a minicomputer the 16-bit line from DG was virtually without peer. Yes, some late -11s surpassed the raw power of the Nova instruction set, but it was years behind DG. We'd better save these machines while we can; Data General was, at its zenith only about 20% of the size of DEC, and its install- base was similar in scope. These machines are _not_ common, remain useable today, and are a joy to look at and run. Don't let the opportunity pass. > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for > the junk heap? I, for one, certainly hope not. Part of the misconception about minicomputers is that they take up huge amounts of space. Yes, individual examples are larger than the average microcomputer; however, minicomputers stack nicely, can be stored very compactly in rack-mounts, and being squared off, can occupy corners very well. They're not as space-intensive as one might think. They're usually faster than most micros, too. While minis don't, right now, get the blast of attention that machines like the IMSAIs do (why is that machine so popular? War Games, maybe?), they are a valuable link to computing's history and they're disappearing from existance very quickly. Without Mr. Shoppa's efforts, better than a dozen of these wonderful systems would have been shipped to the scrappers without a second thought. And that would be too bad. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 8 months

3
2
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RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT')

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and <> magenta at various times and combinations. < <It seems to me that the PDP-11/60s were in red cabinets (in fact, <introduced as "the Big Red Machine"). We had one in the support lab and it wasn't red! It was lite blue and gray combo. The only big reds were the system-20s. Allison

28 years, 8 months

1
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FWD: RSTS/E Manuals

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> writes: > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the > junk heap? No, but speaking for myself I am short on space at the moment (and don't see it getting better for a while), lacking organization (working on that one), short on time (which constrains both of the above), and short of space between my ears too (too doggone many learning experiences this last year or so and a medium-sized list of some I have yet to get to). This Sunday I told someone "you know, I sometimes think I should stop collecting and get to work with the stuff I have." Which is enough to fill one 10'x10' (figure 3mx3m) storage closet to where it's not too difficult to get to stuff and make a pretty good showing of boxed manuals and magnetic media in another. Certainly most of it needs some sort of work. And there are some minis in there amongst the micros: An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the moment but am keeping my eyes open. Two HP 3000/37 CPUs, and enough disk drives and other bits to make one of 'em work. Well, they're a little bit small for minis, at least if you consider just the CPU box. An HP Micro 3000GX, currently taking up space in my workroom, with a 7970E 1600BPI tape drive that gives the resident manager hives -- it's big and metal therefore it must be heavy, right? (I live in the apartment above her.) Can I call this a mini? It runs the same code that used to run on bigger 3000s, but it calls itself a "Micro" (and fits entirely in a little tower case that with packing material and box weighs 78 pounds -- what's that, 35kg?). Is it part of the colllection? Hard to say, I used to do real work on it, but I wouldn't part with it.... An HP 9000/520, but there we are straying away from minis into early 1980s supermicro/workstation sorts of things. Various manuals for the above, as well as other systems in the 3000 and 21xx families. Also manuals and print sets for a Nuclear Data ND812 mini. A few odd parts: HP 3000/III front door with panel (found this on a 19" rack at Foothill swap meet -- the guts were gone and I really don't need another empty 19" rack then or now); two HP 3000/CX front doors, goldenrod; probably other stuff that slips my mind right now. You may have noticed a preponderance of HP hardware in the above list. That is because it is what I know something about (have been doing stuff with 3000s for close to 20 years now, have dialed up 2000 time-shared BASIC systems way back when and know they are based on the 21xx-family CPUs (as are the early HP 1000 systems), and supported a product on the 9000/500 for a little while and came to appreciate its quirks). I don't know that much about DEC gear, and next to nothing about DG stuff -- never used it at all. Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't know. But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be micros than minis. There's another point in there too: I've consciously ignored DEC stuff (or passed it on to other more interested folks) for the simple reason that there seemed to me to be a pretty active community working on preserving it already! But DG stuff is another matter, I just haven't really noticed much of it or much discussion of it. OK Tim, you've guilt-tripped me...a little bit. But I'm still wondering what I could do with and learn from some of this stuff. What would I need to make a workable system? I expect the definition of "workable" is variable amongst the readership, but I could amuse myself for a while looking at an instruction set reference card and having Real Iron on which to toggle in a lights hack would be a nice bonus. (Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them. And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.) Maybe it takes more to interest other folks, like the ability to hook up and use terminal and/or storage devices. Maybe even load some sort of operating system if that's what was customary on these things; I'd probably want to get there someday myself. (Of course that poses its own problem of where to get the operating software.) I don't know, like I said I really don't know anything about DG hardware as it was used in practice -- my background is in DP/MIS, datacomm, HP 3000s, and nowadays sticking IP-protocol-suite stuff into Windows device drivers. Got any pointers to where we could learn more? -Frank McConnell

28 years, 8 months

2
1
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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by ard＠siva.bris.ac.uk

From: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:47:54.16 To: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" CC: Subj: Minicomputer Storage Myths > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E >Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the >argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one >word: "hogwash". Absolutly! My parents (who have to put up with and store most of my little collection) don't like storing micros (in fact they moan for days when I bring home a TRS-80 or some such), but don't seem to mind the PDP11's/PDP8's etc anything like as much. The reason is simple. Micros are a pain to store. You can't easily stack them (the ones at the bottom get mangled, the pile slips over, etc). Monitors are worse. But minicomputers (generally) come in 19" boxes that either go into a 6' (or taller!) cabinet, or get stacked up in a pile in the corner. They are easy to store. The floor area taken up by a 6' rack is not much larger than the area taken by a micro, BTW... > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good >call! I hadn't thought of that one... I've considered designing a bed with 3 6U or 9U rack bays under it. In the UK you can get beds with storage drawers under them, but one _designed_ for computers would be somewhat interesting... > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for >transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 >for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just >got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays >in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). A large estate car (Station wagon?) will carry a _lot_ of minicomputer hardware. I've been in one which contained : A PDP8/e A PDP11/44 A Sun 3/260 (on its side, on top of the PDP's) A PPL graphics display + trackball A northstar Horizon (OK, a micro, but in a 19" rack) An Acorn System 4 (ditto) A _lot_ of spare boards, drives, heads, etc Service manuals, printsets, etc. No problem at all. > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the >six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen >machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- >fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter >method" of space management. Odd... My parents _like_ big rack cabinets - in fact they grab them for me to put my machines in. Maybe I'm just lucky. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out >to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are >doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. That's exactly why I started. I realised (10 years ago) that nobody was preserving the recent history of computing, and it was going to be lost for ever. So I did something. I started collecting and restoring computers. >| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony

28 years, 8 months

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RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT')

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Yes...most PDP-11 gear is that funky purple color...The early VAXen <were blue, the later VAXen were brown. Magenta is that funky pinkish purple. None of the vaxen I know of are brown, coffee stained maybe. The Vaxen were light grey (almost white) and medium blue or light grey and dark gray(with a coco-ish cast). The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and magenta at various times and combinations. PDP10s were litght blue and the system 20s were poppy orange. Most systems DEC made were by the early 80s gray 68 with some darker gray. There would be one stnadrad light grey (sorta eggshell) and about five darker greys like the TK50 carts, insets for micro11, pro350 and the insets for the BA11 pannel. Allison

28 years, 8 months

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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by ard＠siva.bris.ac.uk

>Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy >Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real >pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? Put them on top of piles of minicomputers :-). Seriously, I _have_ used chipboard/shelf brackets to make 'tunnels' that fit over the crazier shaped machines (PETs, etc), so that I can stack other things on top. If you do this, and decide to run the machines that inside the tunnels, then please add fans or at least make sure air can get into the cooling vents. >On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are >normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you >get with a micro. Indeed. I have a large pile of DEC printsets + A4 binders of user guides, etc. Mind you, the 8 IBM Techref manuals (PC, XT, AT vol1, AT vol2, O&A vol 1, O&A vol 2, Scientific O&A, PC-jr) take up quite a bit of space as well... >-- >Kevan -tony

28 years, 8 months

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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by ard＠siva.bris.ac.uk

From: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60 To: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" CC: Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths >Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not >at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 >room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, >but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd >probably love to have one. That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true of some other serious collectors on this list. Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a group of experts to turn to, either. -tony

28 years, 8 months

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PET FAQ

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all who don't wish to read it. > WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? > > The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS > Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its > microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in > series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the > modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is > the SuperPET. What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the 8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week. I have also heard that the 8200 series runs BASIC 4.5, but mine runs 4.0. [...] > Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): > PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) > - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines. > - Upgrade ROMs > - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. > - many with clearer green on black displays I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight 2001 (old ROM) with a green screen. > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed Was this not only available as an upgrade? > PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) > - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) > - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B machines > PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting. > - 4.0 ROMs > - molded plastic top > 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') > - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns > - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. > 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the 40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't handle wrapped text, etc. The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two chips. I haven't done this to mine yet... [...] At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D! [... SUPERPET ...] > MOTHERBOARD SERIES > > 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) > IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ > ! # ! #! > ! # ! #! > ! # exp ! #! exp > ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus > ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! > ! # ! #! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ROMS ! ! ! > ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! >tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! > #1 # ! #2 # ! > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2 kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0 The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK. > 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) > IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ > ! # # tape > ! # # #2 > ! R exp bus # ! > ! A #! 2000 Series > ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k > ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] > ! M R B ! > ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series > ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k > ! O S E ! > ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series > ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* > ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] > +--------------------+ 8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?). > WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? > > Original ROMs > Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are > limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine > language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory > location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for > lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a > while to compile them) Some of these were not bugs but features. Peeking and poking in upper memory (thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people looking at the ROMS. In the E page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards... The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files" error. [...] > Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features. [...] > HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? > > The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all > PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK > instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people > enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual. [...] > WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? > > This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a > computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can > potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical > units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat > commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. > History of 'the killer poke' [ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ] The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing speed even if you had speeded it up. The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory. This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when to access the video RAM. The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the other). [...] > IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets! > CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? > > With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from > the user port... > > Insert Video Diagram here.... Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't work. [...] <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk

28 years, 8 months

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Preliminary PET FAQ

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

A very complete Commodore ROM Geneology is in MICRO Issue 41, October '81. I have a copy in my PET Service Reference Guide, but it's 4 pages of tables and has handwritten additions that would be difficult to OCR. If you're a PET fan you might have this issue around anyway. By the way, the Service Reference Guide is a priceless piece; all schematics and test instructions, plus diagnostic cassettes and floppies. I have most of the Commodore "Techtopics" monthly bulletins also. Kai > ---------- > From: Larry Anderson & Diane Hare[SMTP:foxnhare@goldrush.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ > > I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting > it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you > all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to > include, let me know. > > I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET > memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I > don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies > to > 64 also). > > (view with a monospaced font for best results) > > THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER > FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta > --------------------------------------------- > BY LARRY ANDERSSON, > COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST > --------------------------------------------- > > WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? > > The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing > MOS > Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its > microprocessor, > the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the > first > series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern > 4000 > and > 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the > SuperPET. > > 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display): > PET 2001series: > Original PET: > - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape > drive > - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard > - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM > - Original ROMs > Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): > PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was > shipped > with) > - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys > - Upgrade ROMs > - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. > - many with clearer green on black displays > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) > - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) > - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. > PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= > RAM) > - 4.0 ROMs > - molded plastic top > 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') > - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns > - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. > 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) > CBM 80xx > - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case. > - buisness xx key keyboard > - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe) > - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board > - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface > - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.) > - Avalability of disk Based languages > > MOTHERBOARD SERIES > > 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) > IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ > ! # ! #! > ! # ! #! > ! # exp ! #! exp > ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus > ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! > ! # ! #! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ROMS ! ! ! > ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! > #1 # ! #2 # ! > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ > > 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) > IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ > ! # # tape > ! # # #2 > ! R exp bus # ! > ! A #! 2000 Series > ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k > ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] > ! M R B ! > ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series > ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k > ! O S E ! > ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series > ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* > ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] > +--------------------+ > > WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET? > > The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few > minor > ones, > you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of > the PET > (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way > to > distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the > computer. > Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the > ROM > version: > > *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as > 2.0* > ROMs. > (only found in the older calculator > keyboard style > PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF > > ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs' > sometimes > referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending > on > who > you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF > > *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work > on > large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF > > * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of > beta > development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs... > Commodore > on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or > 2.0. > For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as > original > and > upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's > numbering > (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture). > > WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? > > Original ROMs > Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. > Arrays > are > limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no > machine > language > monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory > location > 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for > lower > case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a > while to > compile them) > > Upgrade ROMs > Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and > capabilities > very > much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and > IEEE-488 > disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!' > displayed > on the screen x number of times. > > 4.0 ROMs* > Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY, > HEADER, > etc. > Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys. > Reserved > DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window' > formatting > control > characters. > * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ > and > some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the > large > screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new > video > controller of the 12" display PETs. > > CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET? > > Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res > graphics or > sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course > if it > contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will > be > nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res > grpahics, > programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting > because > those features aren't present on the PETs. > > NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were > converted > PET games. > > HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET? > > Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into > the > memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as > on > the > later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s, > 128s, > etc, > will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the > BASIC > interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and > the > later > Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see > table x) > > There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into > memory, > > Disk Track/Sector Editors: > My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector > editing > utility > to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk. > > This is > not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a > later > time. > > BASIC Line Relocation Method: > Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course > you > will > need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or > load in > a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking' > the > higher > located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you > delete > that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in > memory. > > 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory. > 2. Enter: 0 REM > 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1 > for > tape) > 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS > 1024 > 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed: > M 0401 0408 > 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be > moved; > use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit > numbers to > read: > :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00 > ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x) > 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the > monitor. > 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program. > 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper > place. > 10. Save the program. > > TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files: > > Saved under Start of BASIC > Computer load load change > Model/ addr. addr. bytes > configuration dec. hex. to: > ------------- ---- ----- ----- > PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A > VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10 > VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A > VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12 > Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08 > B-128 0003 $0003 * > Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10 > Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20 > C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C > C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40 > > * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM > memory, > which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to > convert > without > a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself. > ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated. > > WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE? > Tape Drives > Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact > you can > hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside > the > case, > on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2. > Commodore Models: > SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified > for > PET datasette cable/plug. > C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case. > 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light. > Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models > 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present) > 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on > 1541/71s > 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. > 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. > 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side. > 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk > SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit. > Commodore IEEE-488 8" > 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...) > Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives > 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit > 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit > 3rd party > MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and > MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces. > Modified 1541 > PRINTERS? > Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers > 4022 > 4023 > 8023 > Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options > (Epson was one) > > HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE? > > You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk > one > after > another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading > address > will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy > utility > available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called > 'Unicopy'. > Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim > Butterfield) > allows > you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves > the > loading > address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple > file copies > instead of just one program at a time). > > HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK? > > Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little > utility I > had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD > each > file off > of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop > it (or a > disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name > as one > already on disk, disk full, or end of tape. > > HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET? > > Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not > originally > designed > to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been > developed but > the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which > generates.... > The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in > piezo > speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7) > > Sound Interface Diagrams here... > > WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET? > For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade > ROM > PETs and > it only varys by a few commands and features between original and > 4.0 > ROMs. > On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers > into, vary > quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for > all > the > versions... > > HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? > > The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is > available on all > PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a > BRK > instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), > most > people > enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. > > WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR? > G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C) > L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08) > S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress > (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000) > R - Display Processor Registers > X - Exit Tiny Mon > M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0) > : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command) > ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register, > P > command) > > CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET? > > Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The > most > popular > (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's > Supermon. > There are versions available for all ROM revisions including > original > ROM PETS > and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful > memory/ML > commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There > are other > versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information > on > them. > > > I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM? > > The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined > user > had > devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This > interface > allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible > joysticks.... > > Interface Diagram Here > > HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR > VISA-VERSA? > > You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the > Plus/4 and > Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously > established for > their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the > plug > designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to > record on > tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other > 8-bits, > the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My > sggestion would > be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040 > or > 2031, or > copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128. > > WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? > > This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically > break a > computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can > potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other > mechanical > units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command > somewhat > commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. > > History of 'the killer poke' > When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display > wasnt all > that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could > impove the > character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would > set > the > video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement > of speed > on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade. > It > was > mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that > relied > on > printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor > Magazine, > a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one > of > the > 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert > into > their > game "joust" to make it play faster. > > Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs, > they > had > improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An > unfortunate side > effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster > controller > to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging > the PETs > video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident > after > our > school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen > starts to > warp after about the third line and the display stops around the > fifth, the > keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only > solution > is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs > were > damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' > that would > allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units > from > frying. > Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this > fix. > > Prevention > Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running > them > on a > large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first > run > it. > I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this: > > POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. > > The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is > needed > for the PET running the program, here is the code: > > IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 > > CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? > > With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite > singnal > from > the user port... > > Insert Video Diagram here.... > > WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY > DRIVE. > > WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET? > > WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS? > > IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET? > > I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488 > interface, the > company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an > acoustic > modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have > never > actually seen one. > > Larry Anderson > > -- > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- >

28 years, 8 months

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Help me out here, PDP-11

by thedm＠sunflower.com

This seems to be the favorite from what I can tell from the many discussions of Mini's. If I could get a hold of one of these, what parts do I need, what can I use it for and how much should I have to pay for it? Please feel free to email me personally if you do not wish to clutter the list. Bill Girnius thedm(a)sunflower.com

28 years, 8 months

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Minis not "trendy" enough

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend overbackwards to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the junk heap?<< >I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to< This is THE critical fact. Go into an antique store sometime, and look at the prices. You'll see some little knicknack for $300, and then you'll see a huge, 150-year old carved mahogany wardrobe closet for-- $260? The fact is EVERYONE has room for the small knicknacks, but few people have room for the wardrobe closets. Similarly, I can (and some day, probably will) decorate my office with cute little ZX-80s, Mattel Aquarius, CGP-115-type printer plotters and the like, scattered around for people to look at as curiousities (and ask about, if they're foolish enough to get me started); but, what would I do with a mini or an IBM 360 if I had one? Not that preserving some of the larger systems isn't a worthwhile effort, but I think most people would echo W.C. Fields comparing women to elephants: "I like to look at them, but I wouldn't want to own one."

28 years, 8 months

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PET FAQ

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk >I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all who don't wish to read it.< I believe it is foxnhare(a)goldrush.com I've already sent him e-mail, directing him to Jim Brain's "Canonical List of Commodore Products" which mentions a number of computer and printer models he missed. I also mentioned the FAQ that Jim maintains on various Commodore topics, although I assume he's familiar with that. Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 8 months

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HHC's?

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Mike has contacted the company with the HHCs and there is a guy there counting up all the available units. Mike and I worked out a deal of $1600 for 200 units, which puts the base price per unit at $8 before< Again, bravo for undertaking this effort. Once we all get our units, we'll probably need a separate listserv to discuss them, swap programs and such. If folks have access to the internet (usenet) newsgroups, I know of one which is virtually inactive and could easily be hijacked for this purpose. ;-] Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 8 months

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How do I Unsubscribe From This List Server? HELP!

by BNICALEK＠aol.com

I've been trying to do this over the last few days, and still can't figure it out... Bryan Nicalek bnicalek(a)aol.com

28 years, 8 months

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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Well I've done that too. Like with my Tandy Model4's, which I didn't know anything about. But at least I knew it as all there. The places I get my stuff, never have anything like this. You find me one, and well, if I can afford it, I'll have a stab. Be a good reason for me to learn unix. ---------- > From: PDP11 Hacker ..... <ard(a)siva.bris.ac.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 1:45 PM > > From: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60 > To: MX%"classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" > CC: > Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths > > >Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not > >at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 > >room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, > >but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd > >probably love to have one. > > That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely > nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on > how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true > of some other serious collectors on this list. > > Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service > manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a > group of experts to turn to, either. > > -tony >

28 years, 8 months

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Minicomputer Storage Myths

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd probably love to have one. ---------- > From: Carl R. Friend <carl.friend(a)stoneweb.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 11:42 AM > > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E > Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the > argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one > word: "hogwash". > > For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" > wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- > abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little > deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are > at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but > usually do not top 100 pounds or so. > > Yes, collecting them does take creative space management. > > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... > > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for > transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 > for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just > got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays > in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). > > Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked > at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with > space left over. > > I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter > underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I > also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the > dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal > stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. > > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the > six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen > machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- > fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter > method" of space management. > > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > | | | > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | > | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | > | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | > |________________________________________________|_____________________|

28 years, 8 months

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FWD: RSTS/E Manuals

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<dollars or drive hundreds (thousands) of miles in a rented truck (unless <you can fit a PDP-11 in the trunk of a Honda Civic) to pick stuff up. I've loaded an 11/23 with rx02 drives sans rack into one easily. A DG mini in one of the smaller boxes would fit. Keep in mind most of the minis the basic CPU box is rack width (nom 19"wide x 30"deep) and usually under 11" tall. Most 11/23s are in ba11N or S boxes that are 5-1/2" tall. An RL02 at 70pounds is rack width/depth and under 11" tall. The cak however can be bigger. I could easily fit a 11/23 or ther Q-bus pdp-11/rlo2/rx02 in any midsize trunk they arent that big. Also some of the short racks (30", 40", 50") fit in rooms easily. They are more than large enough to contain a PDP-11 or nova or several depending o disks and CPU boxes. I'd jump on a Front pannel nova but I can't swing the shipping unless I can keep it under 20$. Even thoug DG is only a few miles from here I've never played with their hardware. Allison

28 years, 8 months

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HHC's?

by jrice＠texoma.net

I was curious what the status of the HHC's were? JamesL. Rice

28 years, 8 months

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Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive

by FAIAZMC＠hsd.utc.com

I'll look into it! Mike ---------- From: PG Manney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 4:03PM A customer's Atari 720 K 3 1/2" floppy drive died. Anyone have one? According to him, this takes standard IBM DSDD 720K drives, but not Tandy (I guess, because of the strange data cable.) Thanks, manney(a)nwohio.com

28 years, 8 months

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Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I know a lot of these mailing lists are gatewayed to a newsgroup in a <special bit.listserv hierarchy. That might me a good idea for this group, <as the volume of messages here as gotten too unwieldy for e-mail. (I have <over a thousand messages unread from this group alone). I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. Allison

28 years, 8 months

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Odyssey2, Commodore Calc., 8" disks....

by coslor＠pscosf.peru.edu

Howdy: I picked up a few things today, and was wondering if anyone might have some feedback on this snag... including some more information on some of the items. To start with, I paid a total of $44 for the following. Feel free to let me know if I got a good deal... or not. 1) Odyssey 2 game system from Magnavox (Phillips). This comes with the original box, power supply, joysticks, TV converter box, etc. Also in this package is the THE VOICE expansion unit that allows voice output from the cartridge software. The unit itself is in _perfect_ condition! Thirteen game carts also came with this unit: Alien Invaders-Plus!, Computer Golf!, Attack of the Timelord!, Invaders From Hyperspace!, Speedwar, Spin-Out, Crypto-logic (the last three on one cart), Killer Bees!, KC'sKrazy Chase!, Sid the Spellbinder!, Type & Tell!, Football!, Nimble Numbers Ned, Bowling, Basketball (the last two on same cart), UFO!, and KC Munchkin!. Along with these carts are all the original boxes, in great shape, and the original manuals and countless other inserts! Does anyone know what the 'going' rate for a package like this might be these days? Also, does anyone have any inside info. on why ALL their titles end with an ' ! '?? 2) Commodore Solid State Electronic Calculator Model # 887D seriel #099632. I am seeking more information on this one. It's just a small digital (old style, lights actually are lit for numbers, etc.) calculator. This came with original manual, inserts, power supply, and box. I wasn't able to find a manufactured date, but on one of the instruction addition inserts, it is dated 10-1-1975. Please let me know if you might have more info. on this one. Also, let me know if there are any die-hard Commodore collectors that might be interested in purchasing this from me. 3) I found 60, six boxes of 10, 8" diskettes. These boxes are the heavy, plastic boxes that the top is spring-loaded to pop off. The disks are in mint condition and are unlabled. However, some of the boxes are labeled such things as 'daily backups', C, D, E, etc., and seems to be some accounting or other business disks. Can someone help me out and give some info on what types of machines used these? I know the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 2,12, & 16 used these 8" disks but what others did? Is anyone interested in buying these up from me? I don't have a heck of a lot of use for them. Well, that's about all. Feel free to contribute any of the requested info., and anything else you'd like. Do you think I did ok financially on this deal? Also, if you're interested in getting 2 & 3 from above please let me know.... I will entertain ANY offers. Finally, I am also looking for any Atari 400 cassettes or cartridges. I don't have a disk drive, but am looking for one. Let me know what you have and how much you'd let 'er go fo, and we'll work something out. Also, looking for old TRS-80 software on disk and cassette, or CoCo cartridges, some keep that in mind as well. Thanks a ton for your time, CORD G. COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*//

28 years, 8 months

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DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's

by shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970721/6b7a5eae/at…

28 years, 8 months

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Preliminary PET FAQ

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to include, let me know. I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies to 64 also). (view with a monospaced font for best results) THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta --------------------------------------------- BY LARRY ANDERSSON, COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST --------------------------------------------- WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the SuperPET. 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display): PET 2001series: Original PET: - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape drive - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM - Original ROMs Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys - Upgrade ROMs - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. - many with clearer green on black displays - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) - 4.0 ROMs - molded plastic top 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. - 4.0 ROMs PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) CBM 80xx - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case. - buisness xx key keyboard - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options. - 4.0 ROMs PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe) - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.) - Avalability of disk Based languages MOTHERBOARD SERIES 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ ! # ! #! ! # ! #! ! # exp ! #! exp ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! ! # ! #! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ROMS ! ! ! ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! #1 # ! #2 # ! +--------------------+ +--------------------+ 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) IEEE user tape #1 +------####-####--##-+ ! # # tape ! # # #2 ! R exp bus # ! ! A #! 2000 Series ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] ! M R B ! ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k ! O S E ! ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] +--------------------+ WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET? The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few minor ones, you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of the PET (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way to distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the computer. Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the ROM version: *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as 2.0* ROMs. (only found in the older calculator keyboard style PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs' sometimes referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending on who you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work on large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of beta development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs... Commodore on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or 2.0. For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as original and upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's numbering (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture). WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? Original ROMs Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a while to compile them) Upgrade ROMs Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and capabilities very much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and IEEE-488 disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!' displayed on the screen x number of times. 4.0 ROMs* Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY, HEADER, etc. Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys. Reserved DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ and some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the large screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new video controller of the 12" display PETs. CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET? Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res graphics or sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course if it contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will be nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res grpahics, programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting because those features aren't present on the PETs. NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were converted PET games. HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET? Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into the memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as on the later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s, 128s, etc, will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the BASIC interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and the later Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see table x) There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into memory, Disk Track/Sector Editors: My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector editing utility to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk. This is not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a later time. BASIC Line Relocation Method: Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course you will need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or load in a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking' the higher located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you delete that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in memory. 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory. 2. Enter: 0 REM 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1 for tape) 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS 1024 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed: M 0401 0408 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be moved; use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit numbers to read: :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00 ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x) 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the monitor. 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program. 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper place. 10. Save the program. TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files: Saved under Start of BASIC Computer load load change Model/ addr. addr. bytes configuration dec. hex. to: ------------- ---- ----- ----- PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10 VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12 Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08 B-128 0003 $0003 * Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10 Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20 C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40 * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM memory, which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to convert without a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself. ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated. WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE? Tape Drives Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact you can hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside the case, on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2. Commodore Models: SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified for PET datasette cable/plug. C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case. 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light. Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present) 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on 1541/71s 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side. 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit. Commodore IEEE-488 8" 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...) Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit 3rd party MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces. Modified 1541 PRINTERS? Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers 4022 4023 8023 Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options (Epson was one) HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE? You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk one after another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading address will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy utility available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called 'Unicopy'. Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim Butterfield) allows you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves the loading address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple file copies instead of just one program at a time). HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK? Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little utility I had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD each file off of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop it (or a disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name as one already on disk, disk full, or end of tape. HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET? Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not originally designed to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been developed but the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which generates.... The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in piezo speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7) Sound Interface Diagrams here... WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET? For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade ROM PETs and it only varys by a few commands and features between original and 4.0 ROMs. On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers into, vary quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for all the versions... HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR? G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C) L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08) S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000) R - Display Processor Registers X - Exit Tiny Mon M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0) : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command) ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register, P command) CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET? Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The most popular (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's Supermon. There are versions available for all ROM revisions including original ROM PETS and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful memory/ML commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There are other versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information on them. I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM? The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined user had devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This interface allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible joysticks.... Interface Diagram Here HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR VISA-VERSA? You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the Plus/4 and Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously established for their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the plug designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to record on tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other 8-bits, the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My sggestion would be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040 or 2031, or copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128. WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. History of 'the killer poke' When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display wasnt all that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could impove the character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would set the video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement of speed on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade. It was mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that relied on printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor Magazine, a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one of the 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert into their game "joust" to make it play faster. Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs, they had improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An unfortunate side effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster controller to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging the PETs video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident after our school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen starts to warp after about the third line and the display stops around the fifth, the keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only solution is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs were damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' that would allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units from frying. Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this fix. Prevention Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running them on a large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first run it. I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this: POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is needed for the PET running the program, here is the code: IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from the user port... Insert Video Diagram here.... WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY DRIVE. WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET? WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS? IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET? I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488 interface, the company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an acoustic modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have never actually seen one. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 8 months

1
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Apple Lisa Owners??

by bede0005＠gold.tc.umn.edu

Hi all: This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic Computers!! I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get rid of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But what about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any cards that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card was available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else? Let's see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited to the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember the name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers? Well thanks to anyone with any info Rob

28 years, 8 months

1
0
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V6 Unix and E11

by dseagrav＠bsdserver.tek-star.net

I can't get the V6 Unix images to boot under E11. Any special differences between it an V7? (Other than my real PDP can't do V7)

28 years, 8 months

1
0
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CoCo disks

by jeffh＠unix.aardvarkol.com

I found what looks to be a few intersting disks today, though at the moment I can't check to see what's on them or anything. They are all for the CoCo though, and all Tandy-labled disks in Tandy jackets still...and some are even for OS-9. They are: Flightsim I, (c) 1984 Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 C Compiler for OS-9 Systems (version 01), (c) 1983 Color Disk EDTASM (version 01), (c) 1983 Ghana Bwana, (c) 1984 OS-9 Profile, (c) 1984 Biosphere for OS-9, (c) 1985 At least now I've got a few CoCo disks to try once I finally find a disk controller for my III! Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

28 years, 8 months

1
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Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive

by manney＠nwohio.com

A customer's Atari 720 K 3 1/2" floppy drive died. Anyone have one? According to him, this takes standard IBM DSDD 720K drives, but not Tandy (I guess, because of the strange data cable.) Thanks, manney(a)nwohio.com

28 years, 8 months

1
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weekend additions

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:SUPRDAVE@aol.com >i also picked up something called a mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the aquarius would be welcome. < I'll send you e-mail on this, but for the benefit of anyone else: I happen to maintain the FAQ on the Aquarius, and on the "add-on" computer keyboard for the Mattel Intellivision, known as the ECS. Since you have the manual, some of the information in the FAQ will be duplicative, but some could be very useful. For instance, depending on the package you got, the Aquarius does not come with the cable needed to hook it to a cassette recorder. From the (brief) description in the manual, the cable SOUNDS like the Radio Shack cable-- five-pin DIN connector on one end, and plugs for the cassette EAR, MIC and REMote connectors on the other. Unfortunately, the Aquarius cable is NOT wired the same as the Radio Shack cable; and, the manual doesn't supply a diagram of any Aquarius ports to allow you to easily figure it out yourself! The FAQ explains how to make your own. Also explained is how to attach a serial printer (either a DB-25, or a Radio Shack printer intended for use with the CoCo) to the Aquarius. (The Aquarius printer port is quite unique: it's a mini-stereo socket-- just three separate lines.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 8 months

1
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TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I get is B&W.< It's probably not worth your effort to mess with a malfunctioning /4a; get another one. I see these units ALL THE TIME in the $3-$4 range, and I don't even pick them up because I already have more than I'll ever need. The trick with the TI is to find the "expansion box", particularly one well populated with cards; that adds (with the right cards) 32K memory, 1 or 2 disk drives, and serial/parallel ports. (Obviously, you can expand it more if you want to get serious about the TI, but this is the "plain vanilla" disk system.) Then you can run disk-based software without dealing with cartridges all the time. Still, you can have some fun with a non-disk system. The cartridges can allow you to do serious work and save the output to tape. There is also an adventure cartridge that contains the basic parser, etc., and then the different adventures can be loaded from tape. A nice setup for a small-memory computer. By the way, your cable might be your problem on having a monochrome picture. Many of the old home computers put out a monochrome signal on one of the pins, and a color composite on another. Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, or the game is normal. Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental conditions effect this? Thanks, Zane <

28 years, 8 months

1
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CoCo disks

by zmerch＠northernway.net

Whilst in a self-induced trance, Jeff Hellige happened to blather: > I found what looks to be a few intersting disks today, though at the >moment I can't check to see what's on them or anything. They are all for >the CoCo though, and all Tandy-labled disks in Tandy jackets still...and >some are even for OS-9. They are: > Flightsim I, (c) 1984 This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & 16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than Micro$hark. > Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 This is a GUI for OS-9... it was rather interesting [and I've heard useful with a hard drive], but *extremely* slow with floppies. > OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 Standard USCD P-code compiler... interesting thing is you could compile programs larger than 64K (max memory for a CoCo 1/2) out-of-box. > C Compiler for OS-9 Systems (version 01), (c) 1983 IIRC, *almost* standard K&R C... methinks there were a few *very minor* differences that were easy to code around, but non-standard nonetheless. > Color Disk EDTASM (version 01), (c) 1983 This can be fudged to use the 80x24 screen of the CoCo3 (quite nicely, I might add... as I used it quite often like this) but the line-editor was still weird. There are patches available to make this assembler support the Hitachi 6309 processor, which is a M6809 workalike -with enhancements.- > Ghana Bwana, (c) 1984 > OS-9 Profile, (c) 1984 > Biosphere for OS-9, (c) 1985 Never played with any of these... others will have to take the ball and run here. > At least now I've got a few CoCo disks to try once I finally find a >disk controller for my III! Uhhh, I might have one *for trade*. Presently, I have two available working Disto MC-1 [Mini-Controller 1] boards, but without getting into that entire pirating issue *again*, I have no available DOS's for them. I am looking for a shareware RS-DOS clone that I could burn into e-prom for you, or I could purchase ADOS-3 or Extended ADOS-3 for you and install it. Be warned: I don't have cases for these controllers, so you'll have to run them nekkid or fudge something of your own. (The Tandy FD-500/501/502 case will work fine... but you can't buy them thru RS anymore, AFAIK.) I'll keep looking for a week or two for a DOS you can use, and let you know if you're interested. See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch(a)northernway.net | be your first career choice.

28 years, 8 months

3
3
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Atari still around?

by FAIAZMC＠hsd.utc.com

Yes! Sorry about the misspelling! The merger was done by ATARI giving a "bridge loan" to JTS. ---------- From: jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Atari still around? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:00PM I had to jump in! :) Mike, are you talking about the Tandon as in "Tandem"? :) Is that person who now owns this JTS is american or not? I still waiting to see how good JTS are or still junk. I knew Tandon drives used to be reasonably good drive but WD jumped in and screwed it. Thanks. Jason D. > Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. > Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who > used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI > INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! > Mike

28 years, 8 months

1
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Commodore Shares...

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> > >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? > > > > Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a > > reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in > > any quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. > > I agree. Why would anyone pay ANY money for shares if they knew that > everything would ultimately become public domain. For the same reason that they put money in collecting tins - not just for charities but for other organisations - it's a good cause. I'll subscribe! > > Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd > belong to the computing > > community.<< > > > > I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a > > slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. > > The keyword being licenses here. No one asks anyone on here to work for > free and likewise, no one should be expected to shell out their hard > earned cash for the "greater computing good." Sure, Commodore went > bye-bye a LONG time ago but the rights to some of that stuff still won't > be cheap... No-one should be expected to, but I think you'll find more people are prepared to than you expect. I'm prepared to - I get my money's worth anyway (technical data for my several PETs, VICs and my 64), and I would be quite happy to see the stuff go PD thereafter. Returning briefly to the Commodore B series, how do the 8200 series machines fit in? I see old documents refering to the B and P series, and older ones refering to the 500 and 700 series (I think respectively), but the machines I've actually seen from that period are called 8296. There were two models that I've seen - the 8296D (with internal disk drives) and the 8296 (without). The motherboard is identical - two banks of 64k RAM, (I think) a high speed (2MHz?) 6502, and a couple of chips which you unsolder and move to adjacent positions for 40 column mode. The case is similar to the 8032SK - rounded, plasticky PET case with large green screen and separate keyboard, but returns to the edge connectors for the IEEE488 and user ports. The internal disk drive - which I have now added to my 8296 to make a D machine - is an 8252 (?) which plugs into the IEEE488 internally. Ironically, 8296 had a linear power supply and 8296D a switchmode! So how do the 8296 and the B/P machines relate? Anyone know? Also, how do you do the bank switching to get at the full 96K of RAM? (I think you lose 32K to the screen - very inefficient!) Philip.

28 years, 8 months

1
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Tandy Service Manuals

by rcini＠msn.com

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:57:22 GMT Benedict Chong wrote: >>Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine).<< I don't think that the master book in the Radio Shack store has a description of the product next to the catalog number. You would need a kind sole here with an old R/S catalog to give you the number. You could also ask the operator on 1-800-THE-SHACK. Just give her the model of the computer and say that you don't know the catalog number. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 8 months

4
3
0 0

USING classic chips (was Re: USING classic machines)

by chemif＠mbox.queen.it

At 13:24 28/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, someone wrote: > Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based >hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk >hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a >personal preferance. If interested in such family of CPU's and want to use them as preference, be informed that Motorola use a 68k chip inside its GSM cellular phones (like 7000's and 8000's) I found this info on http://www.ibt.dk/morten/friends/hardware.htm Ciao! ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif(a)mbox.queen.it ? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

28 years, 8 months

2
1
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Atari 400 / Odyssey ???

by coslor＠pscosf.peru.edu

Howdy: Today I'm looking for anyone that might have ANY old Atari 400 cassettes and cartridge games or other programs. Right now, I don't have a disk drive for this system, but am looking for one as well. Second, I am looking to buy an Atari 800xx system? Let me know if you have one for sale. Finally, looking for an old Odyssey game system. Any and all models are on my wish list... including the original Odyssey 'pong' unit, and the more modern models of the cartridge game console unit. If you have any of the above for sale, PLEASe let me know, and your price you would offer it to me for. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*//

28 years, 9 months

1
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Commodore Shares...

by rcini＠msn.com

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:09:19 -0500 (CDT) starling(a)umr.edu wrote: >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in any quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. >>I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing community.<< I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. >>I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights...<< Mmmmm. What's wrong with a little bragging?? <g> >>"Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?"<< ;-) Sounds like Austin Powers! ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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weekend additions

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i enjoy reading what others have acquired over the weekends so i thought i might add mine also. there was a hamfest saturday morning so i went and picked up a 30meg rll drive; a copy ][ pc option board which seems to copy just about anything. is that correct? the laugh of the day was some guy selling an apple ][+ with two drives, joystick and box of software for $300 <!> i think i had met this guy before at a previous hamfest; claiming to have known steve wozniak personally and did blue boxing with the steves! yea, right! i think that's the same ][+ he was trying to sell then. i also picked up something called a mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the aquarius would be welcome. david

28 years, 9 months

3
2
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TRS-80 Model III Questions

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 11:51 PM 7/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It >works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the >other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another >time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up >and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the >problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and >then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them >so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette >based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have >to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm >thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a >lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. >Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, >LDOS or some other and a comm program? > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw(a)neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > > CORRECTION..... Apparently I engaged my keyboard before my brain was in gear! When I turn on my Model 4 without a disk installed I get "DISKETTE?" on the screen. Sorry about that.

28 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model III Questions

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 11:51 PM 7/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It >works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the >other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another >time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up >and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the >problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and >then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them >so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette >based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have >to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm >thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a >lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. >Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, >LDOS or some other and a comm program? > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw(a)neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > > When I turned on my Model 4 with no disks I got "CASSETTE?" on the screen. The lower drive light stays on. Have you checked to see if brightness is turned up on the monitor? Cheers Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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Atari still around?

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this?< Atari was purchased by someone else and dissolved as an independent company. No clue if the successors have any inventory, but I suspect I know where their leftover cartridges went. An outfit called O'Shea, Ltd. has one million, three hundred thousand atari video game cartridges (!), and is selling them for 80 cents apiece. They claim they have 50 different titles, but I only see about 40 listed; pretty evenly divided between 7800 series cartridges and 2600 cartridges. These people seem to sell mostly in bulk (most of their different items are available only by the case), but there's no such notation with respect to the Atari cartridges. I've never done business with them, and I frankly don't know what they'd do if you asked for (say) one copy each of ten different titles. But might be worth a try if you want to round out your Atari cartridge collection. One the internet, they're at http://www.oshealtd.com/ E-mail is billh(a)oshealtd.com Phone is 816-531-1177 Address is on West 47th Street in Kansas City. and I'm at Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 9 months

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Apple /// problem

by MicroAge97＠aol.com

My friend's apple /// has the same problem. i had to have a chip replaced several times. now it broke again but it's been so long that no tech will touch it. dave

28 years, 9 months

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How Do I Unsubscribe?

by BNICALEK＠aol.com

I would like to unsubscribe and transfer to another e-mail address. How do I do this? Bryan Nicalek bnicalek(a)aol.com

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore Shares (was Commodore B-128)

by rcini＠msn.com

On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:56:33 Mr. Self Destruct <more(a)camlaw.rutgers.edu> wrote: >>Me too! On a sidenote, I once saw an ad for some old shares (worthless of >>course) in Commodore (for people to hang on their wall, etc.) If you come across this ad again, I'd be interested. Also, to those who have expressed a passing interest in the remote idea of acquiring any leftover Commodore intangible assets {assuming that (1) we can find out who has them and (2) they want only peanuts for them}, I'll be contacting my attorney today to have him get an update from the US Bankruptcy Court. Maybe we can trace what happened after ESCOM went bankrupt last July. My idea would be to acquire the rights to the source code for the ROMs, the schematics for their machines, IC masks for any custom chips, PC board artwork, engineering diagrams, manuals, and service/technical information. That's it. I don't want any inventory (which by now, I'm sure, has been dumped) or tooling. I'm up in the air about trademarks, though (I know that "Commodore" is gone, but the others like VIC, C-64, and PET may still be available). As far as any licenses that Commodore may have had (for games written by third-parties and sold under the Commodore name, for example), I don't necessarily care. Commodore's machines were developed in-house with MOS/CSG parts, so they were owned by the same company ultimately. At worst, we'd need the IC masks for any custom chips (VIC, VIC-II, SID). Sounds like the beginnings of a business case... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 9 months

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Apple /// problem

by jeffh＠unix.aardvarkol.com

Would anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing a problem with my Apple ///...it does the following: 1) the only disks it will boot are the disks for the Apple ][+ emulation, the CP/M 2.2 diskette for the Softcard ///, and the 'Apple /// Dealer Diagnostic' diskette. All other diskettes give a blank screen, though I have two full sets of the Apple /// systems disks. 2) The diagnostic diskette keeps reporting a RAM Map failure when I try to run a RAM test, on either the 5V or 12V settings, and it then asks me for the amount of RAM in the machine. No matter which choice I've given, it just goes back to the same error. As far as I know, it is a 128k machine with the RAM daughtercard below the keyboard. The amount of RAM was gotten >from the factory sticker next to the PSU on the bottom of the machine. 3) Of the diskettes that will boot, once booted, the machine runs fine, including being able to boot Apple ][ DOS 3.3 and being able to run Wordstar under CP/M 2.2. Any help someone can provide as to trouble shooting this would be greatly appreciated since my experience with Apple machines is quite limited. The machine has a Monitor ///, Disk II for the Apple ///, Softcard ///, and a Silentype printer. It would appear that Apple at least did some kind of work on the machine at one point as it has an extended warranty sticker on the bottom from Apple, with the additional 1 year ending on 08/06/83. Thanks. Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

28 years, 9 months

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That "Thing" in my garage

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

Spring having arrived here in the wilds of Canada, I moved some stuff and got close enough to that thing I was given last fall to read the labels on it. The box is a little bigger than a legal two drawer filing cabinet, and weighs a couple of hundred pounds. There are three tags with "M.A.I. Basic 4 Information Systems, each with a different model number... #9152 upgrade, # 610, and #1321. There is also a tag saying that in event of power failure the batteries are good for four hours! The cabinet contains a backplane and several plug-in boards. Does annyone have any idea of what this is? Cheers Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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That "Thing" in my garage

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 11:22 AM 7/19/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Spring having arrived here in the wilds of Canada, I moved some >> stuff and got close enough to that thing I was given last fall to read the >> labels on it. The box is a little bigger than a legal two drawer filing >> cabinet, and weighs a couple of hundred pounds. There are three tags with >> "M.A.I. Basic 4 Information Systems, each with a different model number... >> #9152 upgrade, # 610, and #1321. There is also a tag saying that in event of >> power failure the batteries are good for four hours! >> The cabinet contains a backplane and several plug-in boards. >> Does annyone have any idea of what this is? > >It sounds like you've got the main hunk of a Basic 4 system there. >These are minicomputers that were sold with special-purpose software >- accounting, doctor's office, etc. - for small business environments. > >Is it possible that there's a hard drive (likely 8" or 10.5") somewhere >in the box? Any tape drive? How many DB-25's on the back for terminals? > >Tim. > > There are 16 db-25's on the back, also two drives about the same size as the computer, the only one with a manufacturers label is Century Data Systems, Model T-80A. It came from a municipal office. When the fellow said he had got a new computer and asked if I wanted the old one, I thought he meant something like an XT! Next time I will ask. There was also a Calcomp 1041 plotter, which runs the test plot, but so far refuses to talk to my 386. Cheers Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Advances

by manney＠nwohio.com

> When I first got onto the net, the first thing I found out was that it is > most useful for e-mail. That's about all I use it for, except looking for people who sell oddball parts. I tried IRC, I tried Usenet, Usenet I use, for classified ads. I tried a couple > other things, and eventually I found myself paying $19.95 a month for > e-mail. btw, My ISP will sell time (so many hours) which will carry over from month to month. $30 will buy 30 hours, which lasts a *long* time with an offline e-mail reader. Some charge, say $7/month for e-mail only. Ask. > But all in all I find the Internet to be EXTREMELY valuable. Where else > can I go to find 200 zealots who collect classic computers to get > information about a particularly obscure piece of hardware and get an > answer to my questions usually within 24 hours? > I can e-mail a diatribe to the President of the United States of America. ...and get put on the FBI's secret list. > Basically, it is truly information at your fingertips (almost) instantly. > Constantly updated, constantly growing, alive. Sure. For me, too. But how many newbies want -- or need -- all that info, or want to acquire the necessary skills? I think, after visiting the Lego page, nakedgirls.com and looking at trucks, many users cast the internet aside with the rest of their toys (and that was my point). Businesses, however -- such as mine -- find a real use for the communications / information.

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Advances

by manney＠nwohio.com

Most of my customers are interested in solitaire, Internet and scanners...and you know? I may be wrong, but I see a *lot* of people trying the interned for a couple of months, then letting the subscription lapse. We have millions of potential newbies to work through, but what's it gonna be like in 10 years? How many dust-covered chess-playing machines do you see around? Electronic keyboards? Cuisinarts? I think we're seeing a fad. Killer app? There hasn't been one since multimedia stuff for IBM I mean..) You're right -- we've been refining (and good refinements the've been, some of them! -- I'll take Corel 7 over DOS MS Paint any day). Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition?

28 years, 9 months

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Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?!

by idavis＠comland.com

At 08:54 PM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of >Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some >problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the >manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get >errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" >-- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am >sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some Cord, Take the Basic cartridge out, and hold the Start button down when turning the machine on. This will give the beep to hit play on the cassette player, then hit enter and it will load. This is how you load a machine language program on the atari from cassette. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the idavis(a)comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List indavis(a)juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html

28 years, 9 months

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(fwd) FS: SPARCStation 1 mb/chassis/ps

by danjo＠xnet.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970718/3112aaaf/at…

28 years, 9 months

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Tandy Service Manuals

by allisonp＠world.std.com

A while back I offerd up a very complete set of docs(and extras) for the TRS80 m1/EI and very likely I'd take less than tandy would. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind)

by rcini＠msn.com

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:35:17 GMT ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>Have you tried Tandy/Radio Shack National Parts? At one time they sold service >>manuals for all their computer stuff, and such manuals almost always contained >>schematics/data on the 'bought-in' parts -- things like PSUs, drives, monitors, >> They still have lots of parts/info. Last week, I ordered the service manual for the Tandy Model 1 Expansion Interface. In 3 days, I got the *original* manual, not a copy of one that was used in a R/S repair center. In the past, I've ordered system diskettes for my Model 100 from the National Parts Software group (Tandy Software, I think, and a different telephone number, too). So, it's clear that they are continuing to support these old machines.

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore B-128, etc...

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > The bulk of the information regarding the B-128 was 'loaned' to the Chicago B-128 Users Group by Commodore (wow, that's a change, eh?) a few years back, I have no idea what had ever happened to the group or where the B-128 info now resides.< Yes, that was quite a deal. The Chicago group seems to have showed up on Commodore's doorstep just as Commodore was getting ready to trash all the B series stuff, and the user group ended up with it all. I wasn't aware it was a "loan", but I guess at this point, nobody is going to show up on their doorstep and ask for it back. If only the rest of the Commodore user group community had showed such drive; we might not KNOW where the rights to the 8-bit stuff ended up, but also we might collectively have owned them! I don't know what happened to the group either. In 1990, before I got a B-128, I wrote and got info, and directed to them everyone I ran across that had a B-series question. Then I wrote in early 1993 to check in on the progress of the group for a newsletter article, and got nothing-- no returned letter, no response. I wrote a second letter a few months later (in case the Chicago post office had lost the first) and still got nothing. I tried again after I got my B-128, and again, nothing. I think basically the "group" was one guy in Chicago and a number of out of town members, domestically and internationally. I suspect as interest in the B series waned, the guy got tired of it and just quit. Still, upon receiving inquiries he might at least have sent out thanks-for-your-letter-but-the-group-doesn't-exist-any-more responses. Postage couldn't have been THAT much. Course, he may have gotten hit by a beer truck, for all I know. (Address was 4102 N. Odell, Norridge, IL. 60635; I probably have the head guy's name somewhere.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 9 months

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Atari still around?

by idavis＠comland.com

At 12:48 PM 7/18/97 -0500, Cord Coslor wrote: >Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really >not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of >old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 >software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari >disutibutors that do this? > >Thanks, > >CORD > There are a number of businesses still selling atari stuff. As far as the company is concerned, only the coin-op still remains under the Atari name. Check out www.myatari.com or email Rick Detlefsen (74766.1561(a)CompuServe.COM). They both have a pretty good selection, and I know Rick is pretty cheap. I work about 5 mins from his place, and it makes a wonderful lunch to go over there and browse through all of his stuff, and pick up goodies. The atari vendor and developer faq is at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/vendev/ If you can't get to it, I might be able to round up a copy and email it. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis(a)comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis(a)juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore Equipment

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it.< That's what it sounded like; this seems to be the most common machine in the P/B line, at least in the U.S. It's the same as what I have. >[[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use it, which is something I like to do as well... ]]< "Using it" is somewhat problematic. While there is a fair chunk of software out there for the PET/CBM line, a lot of that won't run on the B series, at least without modification. As a "for instance", the typical way to find out how much memory you have on a Commodore machine is the check FRE(0). The "0" is a dummy variable on most C= units-- checking FRE(0) will give you the same answer as FRE(1) or FRE(10), etc.-- but "0" is the one typically used. However, on the B series, the variable makes a difference; since it is bank-switched, the different variables let you check different banks. As I recall, a PRINT FRE(0) command on a B-128 yields-- 0. So any software that checks for free memory-- and a lot of PET/CBM software did, since there were 8K machines, 16 K machines and 32K machines-- asks a B-128 that question, gets "0" in response, and crashes. I note the TPUG newsletter seems to indicate the group has some B-128 software, so you could try that route if you wanted. Or, trade the unit off, since it sounds like other folks might be interested. >Anyway, again -- I love this list! :-)< I'm finding it interesting too, at least when it covers the home 8-bits (which I know something about) and not mini-mainframes (which mean nothing to me personally). >-- and thanks one and all for the help you've given me for the help on this little beastie!< Hopefully, that's what we're here for! >I'll let y'all know if the 8050 was still there.< If you want to trade it off, you might not want the drives. Those 8050 and 4040 units are VERY heavy, and a true Commodore enthusiast may already have a compatible drive with his PET/CBM equipment. And there ARE other CBM drives that will work; you might run across them elsewhere. (Actually, one of the nicest drives to own is a third party dual drive called an MSD-SD2. It is a smaller and quite rugged drive, which uses the 4040/1541 format. It has both an IEEE port and a Commodore serial port, so it will work with virtually any C= unit ever made (not counting Amiga and PC-clones). Further, another party came up with a "mass duplicator rom" for it, that allows quick copying from one drive to the other. In fact, it will copy a standard Commodore disk in 15 seconds, or 22 seconds for copy with verify-- and it doesn't even have to be hooked to a computer to do so!) Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 9 months

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Atari still around?

by FAIAZMC＠hsd.utc.com

Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! Mike ---------- From: Cord Coslor To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Atari still around? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:48PM Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this? Thanks, CORD //*===================================================================== ++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================* //

28 years, 9 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 70

by classicjr＠juno.com

I am not getting any more messages! Please change my receiving address to: rottman(a)worldnet.att.net Thanks everyone!

28 years, 9 months

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FS/T Old Computer Hardware and Software

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, nospam(a)see.below.for.real.email (Vacler) wrote: >All this stuff is used unless otherwise noted. I have noted all problems >that I am aware of, but I haven't turned on a lot of this stuff in a >while. So everything is being sold as is. All prices are negotiable(so >make an offer), and don't include shipping. Items marked "---" are >included with the above item, and items marked "T.O." are ones that I'd >rather trade, but if you really want something marked "T.O." make an >offer. I prefer trades to sales. A list of things I'm looking for is at >the bottom. My real email address's are also at the bottom. Feel free to >ask questions. >--------------------------------------- >FOR SALE / TRADE >--------------------------------------- >APPLE >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Apple IIe Platinum $60 >Apple IIe Platinum(bad motherboard) $20 >Apple II+ $30 >Beltron(Apple II clone) $30 >Bell & Howell Apple II(Darth Vader) $60 >Laser 128EX T.O. >Apple II Mouse --- >Laser Power Supply --- >Laser Manuel --- >Apple IIgs(rom 3) T.O. >Apple IIgs Mouse --- >Apple IIgs Keyboard --- >Apple Lisa II w/keyboard(bad power supply) $170 >Macintosh 512K $50 >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Macintosh Plus(4meg ram) T.O. >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Mac 128/512 Plus keyboard --- >Macintosh Plus(4meg ram) T.O. >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Mac 128/512 Plus keyboard --- >Macintosh Portable w/carry case T.O. >Macintosh SE(bad analog board) $40 >Apple II Joy Stick $10 >Apple ImageWriter I Printer $45 >Apple ImageWriter II Printer $60 >Apple Monochrome Monitor $30 >Apple II 51/4 disk drive $20 >Apple II 51/4 disk drive $20 >Apple II 31/2 disk drive $30 >Apple II 31/2 disk drive $30 >Mac 128/512 Plus 31/2 Disk Drive $30 >SSB-Apple Voice Synthesis Board $20 >Several unknown Apple II cards $15 >Software: >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program (NEW) $6 >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program (NEW) $6 >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program $5 >--------------------------------------- >ATARI >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Atari Video Pinball model C-380 $25 >Atari Video Computer System 2600 black w/fake wood trim $25 >Atari Joy Stick X2 $10 >Atari Game Paddles X2 $10 >Software: >Atari Space Invaders $5 >Atari Star Raiders $5 >Atari Warlords $5 >Atari Donkey Kong $5 >Atari ET $5 >Atari Street Racer $5 >Atari Qbert $5 >Atari Sea Quest $5 >Atari Breakout $5 >Atari Cosmic Ark $5 >Atari Raiders of the Lost Ark $5 >Atari Pac Man $5 >Atari Football $5 >Atari Telegames $5 >Atari Brain Games $5 >Atari Donkey Kong $5 >Atari Bridge $5 >Atari Qbert $5 >--------------------------------------- >COMMODORE >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Commodore SuperPET SP9000 T.O. >Commodore Plus/4 in original box w/power supply and manual $40 >Commodore 64 (for parts) $15 >Commodore 64 (for parts) $15 >Commodore 64C w/power supply $35 >Commodore SX64 T.O. >Commodore 128 w/power supply T.O. >Commodore VIC-20 w/power supply >T.O. >VIC-1541 Disk Drive $20 >C64 1541 Disk Drive $20 >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive $30 >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive $30 >Amiga 31/2 Disk Drive $35 >Amiga 1000 (w/signatures in case) T.O. >Amiga Keyboard --- >Amiga Mouse --- >Amiga 31/2 Disk Drive $35 >Amiga Pin $5 >C64 Modem $10 >C64 HesModem II $15 >C64 Joy Stick $15 >Commodore 1701 Monitor $35 >Commodore Cassette player $10 >Commodore MPS 803 Printer $30 >VIC-20 ram cartridge $10 >Software: >C64 Business Systems $5 >C128 Swift Calc $5 >C128 Word Writer $5 >C128 Data Management $5 >C64 Omniwriter & Omnispell (NEW) $7 >C64 Project Space Station (NEW) $7 >C64 Project Space Station $7 >C64 Graphics Basic (NEW) $7 >C64 Graphics Basic (NEW) $7 >C128 Ghost Writer $5 >C64 Forth $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >--------------------------------------- >Tandy / Radio Shack >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >TRS-80 I w/monitor and printer $45 >TRS-80 Color Computer I T.O. >TRS-80 Color Computer II $20 >TRS-80 Joystick $10 >Software: >TRS-80 Color Script $5 >TRS-80 Color Baseball $5 >TRS-80 Pooyan $5 >TRS-80 Mega-Bug $5 >TRS-80 Dungeons of Daggorath $5 >--------------------------------------- >Other >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Texas Instruments TI-99/4A CPU(Silver & Black) $20 >Super Nintendo System w/2 controllers $40 >Sega Genesis w/3 controllers $40 >Kaypro I $35 >Kaypro II $45 >Software: >Genesis Shining Force $15 >Genesis Shining in the Darkness $10 >Genesis Game Genie $10 >SNES Secret of Mana $17 >SNES Secret of Evermore $17 >SNES Game Genie $10 >SNES Super Mario World $10 >SNES Mario All Stars $15 >--------------------------------------- >WANTED >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >IBM 5100 >TRS-80 Model 100 >Acorn Archimedes 3xx-4xx >Atari 520STm or 520STfm >Apple Macintosh 128k >VGA Monitor >Mac IIfx Memory >External Macintosh CD-Rom Drive >--------------------------------------- >Loren Everly >everly(a)interpac.net >vacler(a)hotmail.com >http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/7533/ >---------------------------------------

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore B-128 series

by rcini＠msn.com

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Les wrote: >>Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and >>to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at >>http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff >>and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. True, ESCOM, AG owned all of the rights to the Commodore name, intellectual property, etc., but it mid-96, filed for the German equivalent of bankruptcy (receivership, I think). This put the Commodore assets in play again. GW2K bought the Amiga stuff, but the other stuff is still in limbo (I think). In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone interested in buying Commodore assets?? I only have several VICs, a 64, and a lonely PET. I'm in need of "rounding out" my CBM collection. So many models, so little time... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore B-128, etc...

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

The B-128 did come in a few models, they have been defined by case design (low profile and high profile) some models came with integrated monitors (looked like really advanced PETs, especially with the detached keyboard). The bulk of the information regarding the B-128 was 'loaned' to the Chicago B-128 Users Group by Commodore (wow, that's a change, eh?) a few years back, I have no idea what had ever happened to the group or where the B-128 info now resides. When Amiga Technologies was sold by ESCOM, ESCOM kept the Commodore trademark and name, as the remaining profitable division was the IBM clone division which used the Commodore name and logo to enhance their image (Commodore is a 'good thing' in parts of europe.) It is still under debate exactly where the technology for the 8-bits have ended up, some say ESCOM, some say partly Amiga Technologies... Dunno. Get the 8050 drive, Commodore IEEE-488 dual drives drives were very expansive and are not as abundant as the later serial models. If you need a cable for it (computer to IEEE-488 device or IEEE-488 to IEEE-488), E-mail me, I currently have a source for a few... Larry Anderson P.S. I started work on the PET FAQ, I outlined it and I have quite a bit of stuff to write! -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore Equipment

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the<< >OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look like?< You'll have to ask the guy that left the original message. I was replying to him. However, his brief description made me assume it was a low-profile B128. >1. C128-40 "Advanced Personal Computer" Basically this is a B128-80 with a 40 column screen (sounds like a VIC chip to me) and comes in a low profile case (sorta like an amiga or 64) Not to be confused with the more common C128.< This one is also known as a P-500, and seems to have been the equivalent of a super-duper C64. It had the C64's 40 column color display (the rest of the line was monochrome) but had the faster IEEE drives, etc. >2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display< Presumably, if it was paired with an 8050 drive unit, it didn't have integral disk drives, and was the low profile model. >4. B256-80 "Advanced 16-bit Proffessional Computer"< He said "B128", and I'm taking him at his word. >Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to sell/trade, lemme know!< Again, maybe the original poster will take you up on this. Also, I know one store in Oklahoma City that's had a low-profile B128 sitting around for some time. (I don't live in OKC, so I can't swear it's still there.) The store has a bad habit of never putting a price on anything, so I don't know if the guy wants a mint for it or just a few bucks. If you want to try contacting him, I'll try to dig up the name/address, but please don't put me to the effort unless this sounds like something you seriously want to pursue. >Also, if you want a copy of my "User's guide" that shouldn't be much of a problem, it's a whole 120 pages.< I have one, thanks, but the original poster might be in the market. Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 9 months

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Axe to Grind

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <150A878A7B7E(a)ifrsys.com> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > Guys: > > Thanks to everyone who submitted information on my *controller* > cards. I got pretty much everything I need to know on the -05 cards, > but the -TB1 is still a problem. WD implied over the phone that this > was custom made. OK. It is currently mounted in a Radio Shack > cabinet with a Tandon 15Mb drive. Any Ideas? Have you tried Tandy/Radio Shack National Parts? At one time they sold service manuals for all their computer stuff, and such manuals almost always contained schematics/data on the 'bought-in' parts -- things like PSUs, drives, monitors, etc. IIRC if the stock number for the device was 26-abcd, then the service manual was MS260-abcd. At least in the UK, they were available to the general public. There may also have been a Technical Manual (which would have had a different stock number), but I doubt it. Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. Does anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board - there's a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. I'd be quite happy to buy the entire technical manual if it's still available anywhere, but I do already have the Model 3 manual, so I don't need any info on the disk drives/controller, RS232 board, PSU, or monitor. Anyway, with this machine I got a Cummana hard disk unit. Cummana were a UK company who later went on to make disk drives for the Acorn BBC micro. This unit contains a Shugart 612 disk (any ideas?) a Western Digital controller (I can't remember the number, but it is a standard card), a PSU, and a little address decoder/interface board. Maybe you have an original Tandy version of that. > Jeff -tony

28 years, 9 months

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looking for iRMX O/S for 8086

by clark_geisler＠nortel-nsm.com

I'm trying to find diskettes and manuals for a release of iRMX that runs on an Intel 310-3A box (8086 processor). I have 2 of these running production electronics testing that have died. We are getting them repaired by InBUS. But we've never used the backups that were given to us when these machines transferred from another plant. We didn't get the original iRMX diskettes, and just a couple of manuals. I suspect the backups may be for just the application software, and not the entire hard disk (there are only 3 diskettes in the backup set). As far as I can tell, we are using iRMX-86 release 6. I've been trying to get someone at Radisys (who support the current version of iRMX), but haven't been able to speak to anything more than voice mail so far. I'm not very hopeful, though: this is pretty old stuff. Does anyone still have the diskettes and manuals for this release that I could copy or purchase? Thanks, Clark Geisler Test Engineer

28 years, 9 months

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Classic Video Games

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? Thanks in advance! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Museums

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where <> you put an AM radio near it as the output device! < <I thought that was the Altair. <It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but <that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound <capabilities besides ^G... I'd been done with many machines in many ways. FYI: I have a PDP-11 board that does multivoice sound (gigilo was the name for it). It works too. I've hard it via d/a converters on an 11, via the line printer on a -10. The altair thing was via radio, but also there were not less that a dozen different sound and music boards for altairs/s100 systems. Some I might add were very good. At least one used the pinte line (shows the internal state of the 8080 processor interrupt enable flag). Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore B-128 series

by bw＠booster.bothell.washington.edu

catching up... Most of what has already been said here is pretty much correct. I'll add: B-series were regular low-profile micros. CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the CBM series machines. IMO they're pretty nice machine which had some attractive options when they came out. They didn't last long and very little seems to have been written for them. You can find schematics for the B-128-80 in the archive (Web/FTP). If any of you need a drive for one of these CBM 4040's work fine (8050 is a better but less common drive). I have a number of 4040s and could definitely part with a couple if you want to pay the shipping costs (heavy, heavy drives). As soon as I clear through the research I have several items for this series that will go in the archive - the manual, a word processor and a spreadsheet, and some technical notes. Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up owning the rights to this stuff? Bill

28 years, 9 months

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power supply/battery pack for ST Book?!

by walgen＠do.isst.fhg.de

---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sent: Donnerstag, 17. Juli 1997 18:00 To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! >> Hi, >> >> does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack >> for a ST Book??? > > Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? Yes - sorry I forgett to mention Atari in my posting - it is a Atari ST Book - a real notebook not one of the big Atari STacy

28 years, 9 months

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More News on Commie stuff in Michigan

by zmerch＠northernway.net

Hey, me again! I'm the guy with the funny Commodore stuff.... Just got back from the sale... the drives were gone. :-( The printer was still there (buried) -- it was a 4023 printer. No-one mentioned interest in the printer, so there it sits. It is IEEE-interfaced. Altho I did pick up a TI-59 calculator with 1 recording strip, says it contains diagnostics, IIRC. $5. (was marked $10, talked 'er down). I also got an *old* HP frequency counter, with cord & probe, $5. (Yea, it's not computer, but it'll help me fix computers, so I hope a quick mention is o.k. It should make a pretty good friend to Tex, my pet 'scope. ;-) I found a set of dual IBM 8" drives, marked $10. It had a funky interface (well, for micros) of a 25-pin female D _and_ a 15 pin (I think) female D... it was a 60xx series number, and the Compugraphic box with dual 8"ers is still there, no price. It had paper and a processor with it, tho. Anyway, sorry the drives were gone, thanks for the help on the B-128, and I'll try to reach my decision on keep/trade on the box over the weekend (I'll be canoeing... and *no*, this is one of the few places I won't take my Tandy 200!) Is a Mac IIsi classic yet? Not sure when they were made... it's got a 68030 with a 40Meg SCSI and (if I counted correctly) 9Meg RAM. If someone's got a color monitor (whatever it takes) mouse & keyboard for trade for it, that'd be cool... lemme know. (I'd be much more willing to trade the B-128 for this particular deal...) As always: Stay cool, keep your 'puters that way too, and clean those floppy drives every so often! ;^> Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch(a)northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within?

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Advances

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 97-07-17 21:02:45 EDT, you write: true, most everything has been done now. pnp and usb were/are trumpeted as new, but IBM ps/2's and macintoshes have had similar things in that the ps2 was essentialy plug and play after running the reference disk, and macs have the adb which allows things to be chained into the keyboard cable. i'd like to hear of other examples also. i can't think of any more right now. << Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the type of advance that I am talking about. >> david

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore B-128 series

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up owning the rights to this stuff?< No clue. Commodore, of course, went bankrupt. Originally, it looked like ESCOM ended up with everything. I made several efforts to contact ESCOM through e-mail to determine what their plans were for the old 8-bits items, and never could get a reply. Then, ESCOM went bankrupt. I'm not clear if the Commodore bankruptcy court sort of cancelled the deal retroactively, or if the assets were moved again in the ESCOM bankruptcy. Anyway, another party (Gateway?) ended up with the Amiga assets, but they don't have-- or aren't acknowledging that they have-- the old 8-bit assets. Frankly, I doubt this point will ever be clarified. If the old entities have been disolved, and no new entities obtained the rights before the dissolution, it would seem to me this stuff is now public domain. Of course, the simplest way to find out would be to start treating this stuff as public domain. If any entity out there believes it has the copyrights, it will then make itself known. Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Museums

by idavis＠comland.com

>>> What should be on display considering: >>> 1) space limitation >>> 2) Mainframes, minis, micros >>> 3) What would most attract visitors >>> 4) What would most attract funding :) >5- Location, Location, Location!!! > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn into a travelling museum/art show. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis(a)comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis(a)juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Museums

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 01:07 PM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >Charles E. Fox wrote: >> >> At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the >> >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major > >> We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to >> start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of >> interest to get more public support. > >Has he been actively trying to get one started, and if so, what has been >the major problem? One thing that has been suggested by a couple people >I have talked to is to have displays that include technology developed >by local companies. My feeling so far is that the funding sources will >have a large impact on what is covered. I saw an interesting web site a >couple of days ago, http://www.mysticseaport.org, that has what appears >to be a somewhat self supporting museum going, i.e. no state or federal >monies involved. I find THAT to be most admirable!!! > > The fellow working on the Windsor Ontario science museum is Tom Toth, a retired teacher with political experience. There is also a group trying to promote an aviation museum, (I am a member of that one) and another fellow trying to bring a Canadian navy destroyer to town for a navy museum. The reason for all this interest is that a Windsor resident died and left one million dollars to the city for the establishment of a museum, the only requirement is that it should be named after him. The city finds reasons why all the proposals are unsatisfactory, and collects the interest on the million dollars. I hope someone gets something going soon, because I am not getting any younger and if I fizzle out all my stuff will be going to the dump! Cheers Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore Equipment

by 107765.1161＠compuserve.com

Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. Did I do good? Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow.< The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the last/best members of the Commodore PET/CBM line; the C-128 was one of the last/best members of the VIC/64 line. Both had 128K. The PET/CBM units use an IEEE-488 interface for adding drives, printers, etc., and this parallel approach is fairly fast; the VIC/64 line use a proprietary serial connection that is fairly slow. In other words, you'd better get back and pick up that 8050 if you want a disk drive that attaches to the B-128; there are other PET/CBM drives that would also work (e.g., 4040, 8250), but the 8050 would probably provide the greatest compatibility if you ever want to pick up software. Drives from the 15xx series (1541, 1571, 1581) won't help you here. Did you do good? Only you can answer that. The unit isn't extremely common, but isn't extremely rare either. If you're not into Commodore, you might want to find someone who is and see if you can work a swap of some kind. (I already have a B-128, thanks.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161(a)compuserve.com

28 years, 9 months

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PAM computer, Convergent?

by fmc＠reanimators.org

"Jeff Kaneko" <jeff.kaneko(a)ifrsys.com> wrote: > > Halted in Santa Clara > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've > managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy > drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a > pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. I think Weird Stuff pulled something like this around December 1995, not too long before they vacated their Kern Avenue storefront. Yeah, right, like I am going to pay $75 for used-and-abused 8" drives when the dealer hasn't even taken the time to sort out single/double sided let alone single/double density. Halted has a decent store of small parts. They are good for that, if like me you are not real good at organization and planning your component needs with enough lead time to deal with mail-order. And they keep their selection of connectors better organized than some other nearby outfits (Haltek in Mountain View just has no concept of how to do this -- well, actually I haven't been there in a while, and have been avoiding the connector aisles there for quite a while longer). Sometimes they have hard-to-find small parts. E.g. three or four years ago they had sourced some of those funky SCSI connectors like Sun used to use: the female D connectors with 50 pins arranged as three rows. Specifically these were the IDC flavor designed to crimp onto flat cable -- just the ticket if you were setting up a disk box for a Sun! Pricey at $11, but the thought of the amount of time I would spend soldering 50 little wires from a flat cable into 50 little cups was a good motivating factor. So I bought a few, and I gather other folks did too because one time I found myself waiting for them to get new stock in. > They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, > and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! > > Have you ever seen a grown man cry? Yeah, I have seen them perpetrate other crocks, like the HP 2100 mini that they were selling for $100? $200? I can't remember. What I do remember is that someone had thoughtfully removed all the cards from the CPU, and with my naturally cynical outlook I expect that means they were easy pickings for gold recovery. To be fair there were some other peripherals there, but the hassle involved in moving the lot (all set in a 19" rack) and finding some place to put it was additional discouragement -- besides which I did not have as much experience with the other bits and so was not able to determine on the spot whether they had already been gutted (though it looked like some cabling had been removed as well). It's not entirely clear to me how the surplus-electronics business works here in Sillycon Valley, but one thing is obvious: the primary moneymaker is in the movement of large lots, probably from auctions and companies seeking to be rid of obsolete hardware, through the surplus business and I am guessing on the way to precious-metals recovery operations. If the surplus businesses see little bits that they think will work better being sold as onesies-and-twosies to people looking for upgrades/spares for their trailing-edge PCs (or to people looking for deals on test equipment), then those will come out to the showroom floor. And that can be a profitable niche too, so they try to price accordingly (i.e. cheap enough to make it look like a better deal than upgrading, but not so cheap as to lose much of the profit they could make -- gotta pay for that showroom floor somehow). This has a side effect, too: some of the surplus dealers have a bad attitude toward walk-ins. They know you're not likely a moneymaker, so they are apt to blow off simple questions like "got any more of these?" I got this from the guys at Sharon Industries in San Jose one day a few months ago -- I had wandered in to pick up one or two dinky Unisys PCs that I had seen there and thought would make nice little routers if configured with a small hard disk. The place was messier than usual -- maybe they were reorganizing or maybe they were trying to look like Mike Quinn's, I dunno; they certainly hadn't bothered to close the door or hang a sign up ("closed for remodeling"?). The display was still out, though, so I inquired. First he was asking me if I wanted them today, and when I said "yeah, I could take one or two today" (thinking I should leave the door open for him to say "I can't get to them right now, how about tomorrow?") he changed his tune to "oh, I sold 'em all to Halted." The thought that crossed my mind was: except the one you keep on the shelf for people to look at, right? I haven't been back -- maybe I am a pain in the hindquarters but I really prefer dealing with folks I think are capable of being honest. Speaking of pains in the hindquarters, there is another surplus dealer (RA Electronics) who just plain got out of the computer business, and the rumor is that this is because they got fed up with people coming back asking for support for whatever PC junk they had purchased there. So I'm sure that there are some pains worse than I out there -- I at least am working from the assumption that I am buying someone else's junk as-is. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 9 months

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power supply/battery pack for ST Book?!

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 08:45 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >> for a ST Book??? > >Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? The ST Book was an actual laptop with an ST inside. As far as I know few if any were ever produced. (Perhaps they made it to Europe, which is where Tramiel always concentrated.) Different from the STacy which was also portable, but required a much bigger lap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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power supply/battery pack for ST Book?!

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 05:22 PM 7/17/97 +0200, you wrote: >does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack >for a ST Book??? No, but if you give up searching, I'd love to take it off your hands! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Museums

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How <>about <>contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a <>couple of ... This is one I'd be interested in. Computers/terminals/printers etal represent the art of engineering in many forms. Mechanical, there were some inovative packages. Conceptual, the packaged home computer like the PT SOL-20. Electronics... afew were designwise ahead of the pack. application... it wasn't the machine, it was it's useability. Art both musical and visual. Some were interally well done and had order and form like archectecture. Some like the cromemco dazzler were color graphics back in 76! Or like the PIAA-8700 for music. Ergonomics... the vt100 terminal was a standard for more than the terminal operation it was an erogonomic advance over many with the seperate keyboard, setup on screen and down to small things like the dull black bezel around the crt! Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Museums

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major >stumbling block is, of course, funding. But that aside, what type of >things does this group think a computer museum should consist of and >what should it offer? I am talking here about a physical location as >opposed to an online web site. > >The type of things I am currently considering are: > >What should be on display considering: >1) space limitation >2) Mainframes, minis, micros >3) What would most attract visitors >4) What would most attract funding :) > >Other activities to make the museum more than just a display of >computers: >1) Computer certification classes >2) Availability of documentation for those doing historical computer >research >3) Newsletter >4) Information on promoting computer collecting >5) Being able to provide docs and software (subject to copyright >restrictions of course) > >I am thinking of quite a few other things but this will do for a start. > > We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of interest to get more public support. Good luck Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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Datamaster troubles

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Rich Cini wrote: > Thanks for the error codes. I have no manuals for the Datamaster, so I'm > flying blind. The code "09" is inverse-blinking, so there is a real problem. > > I'll try to pull the chips and re-seat them. The machine worked last summer > and wasn't used since then, so I can't imagine the chip going like that. Yes. Definitely! The diagram in my last post should tell you which chip it is. Now I think of it, I had a problem with my Commodore PET in which chips would ease their way out of the sockets on the motherboard. In the end I bought some decent turned-pin sockets and soldered these in place of the originals. Problem cured. One of the PET ROM chips lost a pin in the course of all this. (AAARGH!). Solution here was to take a staple from my stapler, open it flat, insert into socket in place of missing pin, and solder to the stub on the side of the chip. Wire cutters then trimmed both ends, and chip was as good as new! > Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know what I find. My company has a UK > office (Burdale-Holdings, a trade finance company). If I do need a new chip, > maybe we could arrange it so that you could drop it off at our London office > (if you're near it) and they could send it to me. Why did I open my big keyboard? Yes, should it come to that I shall be happy to do something of the sort, but I don't (a) know what kind of chips they are or (b) possess an EPROM programmer (shock horror!). There is at least one other Datamaster owner on this list, so if someone out there is better equipped than I am to help Rich, please speak up now! Philip.

28 years, 9 months

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HHC (fwd)

by dastar＠crl.com

Here's more information that someone requested on the HHCs. I will be compiling a list of people who have requested to be in on the deal so that everyone will know that their request was received. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:39:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1(a)aol.com To: dastar(a)crl.com Subject: Re: HHC Hi Sam, I can include as many ROM chips as you like,the width of the printer is 40 characters and thermal paper is available.Incidentally do you know someone named BROSWELL ? He made me an offer for one of the Aim computers which I accepted and that was the last I heard from him. Regards,Mike

28 years, 9 months

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Commodore Equipment

by zmerch＠northernway.net

Howdy, guys & Gals! I just came back from our local [p]university's junk-sale and I did find a couple of interesting things: they had all their equipment for sale: $5 per item. I left all the 8088 / monochrome clone junk (I remember when these were bought... most *were* junk).. I found an Epson LQ-500 with tractor feed -- $5. I picked up a Mac IIsi ?/40 (nice Quantum 40Megger in it :-) for -- $5.00 [Drum roll, please] And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. Did I do good? Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. Here's a question: Who's interested in typesetting equipment? They had a Compugraphic machine with 8" drives there... dunno price. But it had several font carts with it, and I do know this baby's classic. (The stuff I used to work on was at least 10 years old, and this is older.) Maybe I'll go back and get that tomorrow as well... if my wife doesn't kill me first! If anyone's interested in the other commie stuff lemme know today and I'll snag it tomorrow. (E-mail's best... see below.) Anywho, any info on the B-128 would be most appreciated! Thanks one and all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch(a)northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within?

28 years, 9 months

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What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<reliable, they are not, as I bought a Conner CFS-850A 850 meg, and it worke <nicely for a year, then one day I am greeted with this error: < <BOOT DISK FAILURE, SYSTEM HALTED. Never confuse reliability with quality. the 3.5" drive have inherant reliability over the larger ones but crap is still crap. <no tape drive). fortunately the drive did have a 3 year warrenty, and a <replacement was shipped, a 1.2 gig seagate ST-31276A. and here is another <question: <Is this going to last me more than a year? If Seagate made good drives in <the past, will this new one live up to this, or is this drive chock full o <corner cutting? Unknown ask others. I have a fujitsu with no complaints but I know others that see nothing but failures of the next larger and smaller model. I will say I've seen models where vendor xx is the one to have and two years later that vendor is producing duds. The MTBF for these drives is so high that they should last for many years of you believe specs and all the parts are up to quality. However a head crash suggests a defect or handling problems (dropped) maybe before you even got it. I cringe when people ship hard disks without major padding. FYI I have at least three 3.5" drives with good media and dead boards! if anyone has a wd-AC160 or wd-caviar2340 that's dead I'd love the board from them. I have stuff on those that should have been backed up. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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HHC UPDATE

by dastar＠crl.com

Ok, just spoke to Mike. Here's the deal: Haven't gotten a price yet. He's concerned about shipping since these units will be coming from Canada. Each unit weighs a little over 5 pounds with the cpu, printer, tray and power supply. This is a little more than I expected. He's going to try to have the units shipped in bulk directly to the volunteer distributors. (So far Kirk (dynasoar) has volunteered to be an east coast distributor. We need a mid-west, southwest and possibly southern distributor. Please e-mail me if you wish to volunteer.) Shipped in bulk, the shipping per unit on the first leg will not be that significant. Its when you only have 1 or 2 coming to you on the 2nd leg of shipping that will be significant with relation to the price of each unit. I would say expect to pay upwards of $15 per each unit after shipping. Again, if you did not anticipate this and want to or need to back out, please do so soon. Mike said it will take him a week to coordinate everything with the company that has the units, so no new news until late next week...sorry. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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power supply/battery pack for ST Book?!

by walgen＠do.isst.fhg.de

Hi, does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack for a ST Book???

28 years, 9 months

2
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History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade")

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 08:49 AM 7/14/97 BST, you wrote: >> (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) >Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another Robotron 2084 was a video game (put out by Williams, I think). The story was that robots had taken over and were killing off mankind. You were man's last hope as a super-ized human, you could shoot the robots and save the people. You ran around doing just that. There were various types of naughty robots and a family (mom, dad, son, daughter) that you ran over (picked up?) to save. What made Robotron different from most games was that it used 2 joysticks, one for movement and one for firing. To be any good at the game, you had to be able to work them independently of each other. Spent a lot of quarters on that game. There were other 2-joystick games, including Sinistar (mine bombs to blow up Sinistar before it's completely built) and a spiderweb game which I forget the name of. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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