- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

I finally got one of my Teraks setup again, and started going over the old software collection. Played a game of Asteroids, perhaps i'll try rogue next. I dont think the guys who were working on PacMan ever completed that game for the Terak, Dang it. I suppose that one was pretty tough to animate on a LSI-11, 70's based computer system. Does anyone know if there are any ftp sites that contain Terak software, or perhaps RT11 for the Terak? I have a few operating systems, a couple UCSD P-system versions and of course MMOS (Minnesota Microcomputer Operating System which is strongly based on the UCSD code). I might have a Basic compiler, and possibly FORTRAN, but i'm not sure if they are complete or usable. -Lawrence LeMay lemay(a)cs.umn.edu

26 years, 11 months

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Reply to original sender

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

I told him I'd pass this on to the list, so contact him, not me. Zane >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:23:32 -0500 >To: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> >From: Don Gray <dong(a)bioanalytical.com> >I looked at your web site (computer side), it's very nice. I do have some >other older computer stuff that I was going to eventually e-bay, but would >just sell if you know anyone who might be able to use it. >- at&t unix computer circa 1982 (i think it is a 3b2 or something [at work >so cant check now]) this is a largish desktop cpu and I have about a >4-foot stack of manuals and 5.25 disks for the unix and utilities. [I just >got this last week and haven't tried it out yet] I don't have a monitor or >keyboard, but it does have docs for a 5260(i think) dot-mapped display >(dmp). Also have a bunch of cabling for this. >- microvax 2000 with tk-50 drive and a bunch of tk-50 tapes, including vms >[also haven't had time to fire this up yet] > >Also, is there a usenet group or a web-site that deals with buy/sell/trade >of this kind of "obsolete" equipment? | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 11 months

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Collectors list

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Doesn't someone already have a "classic computer rescuers list" on their web site? I think that it's divided up by state. I can put a name/address page on my site -- just give me the info! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <---------------------------- reply separator

26 years, 11 months

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Classic color video

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I believe that's just an attenation control; puts a 75 ohm resistor before <the monitor.. Like the Pad control on a sound mixer I think, just brings <the level down to avoid damaging things... or something ;P < <Kevin No! It's for those system that use terminated cables rather than random impedences. For long cables they should be matches at each end to the nominal impedence of the cable and the swich turns on the resistor that does that. Just like the loads used for thin eithernet(or thick). Allison

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

I doubt that any of the old stuff I have, much of which, incidentally is older than the 21-year-old to which you referred, will run at that 10MHz rate, though I once used an ordinary Z-80A at 12 MHz with a BUNCH of 2147's (that's power-hungry, basement-heating, fast, static RAM). Unfortunately, almost no peripherals would talk to it without half a dozen or so wait-states. That was in a hand-wired application and not in an S-100, where, although you can interface the processor, RAM, and ROM with just a gate or two, the bus interface takes about a hundred. (not really, but quite a few!) If I go the route of hand-wiring something for the S-100, I'll probably use one of the WD1002-series bridge controllers I still have lying about. I once lived for about three years on my earnings from that little daughterboard I made which had the Z-80 and a few (4) TTL MSI and SSI parts on it. It provided an interface to a WD-100x-series HDC or HDC/FDC. That way I don't have to go blind wiring all the parts. At my age, that's a serious consideration. First, though, I'll have to fire up that big, old, chassis with the 8" HDD in it, since, though I had several and have bought several cases of beer with the $$$ I got for the bunches of high-quality scrap aluminum they yielded, I've never actually made one of the old SHUGART 1004's work. It always seemed appealing, since it had exactly 256 cylinders, and if you use 32-byte sectors, they also have exactly 256 bytes. It seems made for the Z-80's OTIR and INIR instructions . . . it's just that the 5.25" drives, for which I was designing controllers at the time, and which had to be bought at the time anyway, were so much easier to interface with the S-100 controllers I already had. (I stole from everyone, an equal opportunity reverse-engineer . . . ) It's spent a couple of winters outdoors now, and I wonder if the fans will even work. I do recall, you couldn't hear the HDD above the fans. About ten years ago, Someone gave me several of the XCOMP STS board pairs, but tuned for 8" rather than 5.25" drives' data rate. I imagine they spent a lot of time in someone's desk drawer, in order to keep the boss from learning he'd paid for yet another item they couldn't use. Those might be interesting to try out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI ><I'm just about to consider firing up one of my old CP/M S-100 boxes just fo ><spite and to see if I can get it to run the way I want. It starts with ><wanting the CPU board, and I'll probably have to try several, to run the 8 ><MHz Z-80H I still have lying about somewhere. Then I want to run the 8" > >I say go for it. > >FYI, Murph the NS* horizon turned 21 this year. It's NS* box, and cpu(@ >8mhz), compupro ram, my 765 based floppy and a Teltek MFM controller. > >I also have a compupro with 512k of static runnign at 6mhz. > >the killer system however is using a 84c050 z80/10mhz, MMU with 512k static >ram (no waits) smart floppy and smart HDC. The floppy and hdc system are >8085 powered and have their own DMA (Ieee696 TMA) interfaces. I started >that system back in 81 and for years it was the PC killer. > >Allison >

26 years, 11 months

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Real Hackers, tools of the trade (was Re: Vector Graphic range...)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> > Real hackers carry a Leatherman if 'there just might be something >> > interesting' and a 99MP kit + LogicDart if they know there are machines >> > up for grabs :-). >> >> I guess I'm not a real hacker yet, since I don't even know what a 99MP kit >> is. But I do carry the other items. >It's that red tool roll from Xcellite that DEC field servoids also carry. >It contains Phillips, flatblade, Allen hex, nutdrivers and Bristol spline >drivers. I added Pozidriv blades to mine (essential if working on >European machines). I understand the attraction of those Xcellite sets, especially for field service work where the total weight is a major concern. But they're among the worst "feeling" screwdrivers I've ever used; no matter how I hold them they feel like cheap pieces of junk, and they're always just the wrong size for my hands. Tim.

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I'm just about to consider firing up one of my old CP/M S-100 boxes just fo <spite and to see if I can get it to run the way I want. It starts with <wanting the CPU board, and I'll probably have to try several, to run the 8 <MHz Z-80H I still have lying about somewhere. Then I want to run the 8" I say go for it. FYI, Murph the NS* horizon turned 21 this year. It's NS* box, and cpu(@ 8mhz), compupro ram, my 765 based floppy and a Teltek MFM controller. I also have a compupro with 512k of static runnign at 6mhz. the killer system however is using a 84c050 z80/10mhz, MMU with 512k static ram (no waits) smart floppy and smart HDC. The floppy and hdc system are 8085 powered and have their own DMA (Ieee696 TMA) interfaces. I started that system back in 81 and for years it was the PC killer. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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DECtapeII drives available - contact the person in the post, not me

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Xref: world alt.sys.pdp11:6181 >Path: world!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.he.net!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail >From: "William B. (Bill, Mr. Bill, etc.) Benshoof, II" <mrbill(a)edge.net> >Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 >Subject: DECTAPE II Available >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 08:14:49 -0600 >Organization: M. R. Ducks Productions >Lines: 11 >Message-ID: <37037F59.38E2(a)edge.net> >Reply-To: mrbill(a)edge.net >NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.215.156.33 >NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:09:59 GMT >X-Trace: 922975799.179.17 MPP1WEAUI9C21D1D7C usenet1.supernews.com >X-Complaints-To: newsabuse(a)remarQ.com >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Y'all, I have 8 DECTAPE II tape drives (guts only, no case) available. Anyone Interested? I'm not a regular subscriber, so E-mail me at mrbill(a)edge.net. Peace, Bill Benshoof

26 years, 11 months

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Vector Graphic range...

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Nope, most of the time I know what's inside ;-)... This was a rare occasion where I got two of them plus a set of external drives, one with two 5 1/4 the other with a hard drive and a 5 1/4, a humongous daisywheel printer and a complete set of software and documentation for $20. "Do you look at the teeth of a free (or almost) horse?" I just got sidetracked in figuring out what the beast was. I'll have to check it out now. Francois >Don't you guys open your boxes to see what's inside them when you first >get them? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 02/15/99] >

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

YES! Finally, a point of agreement! One of the S-100 boards I'm looking to place has a component suspended in space above the board, and, in fact floating aboug an inch above one of the regulators. This was undoubtedly built by one of the self-styled experts I had working on automation software back in the early '80's. These guys had me buy all kinds of stuff we ended up not using and they excused the occasional waste by saying they bought a kit in order to save money. Of course they didn't consider that the cost of building it was a cost to me as well. I rather suspect that, in spite of the strange insertion of this floating component, the board worked. On the other hand, I had an expert prototype a low-current highly noise-immune PLL, for use in data/clock separation in hard disk drive interfaces, which was constructed as you describe, with a piece of copper-clad, double-sided, with the upper layer at Vcc and the lower at Vss. It had wires tacked to other wires and suspended inches above the board, while the components were soldered to pads cut from the solid plane, with machined pins soldered through the board and the IC's plugged in belly-up and wires soldered to their pins. It looked pretty tentative, but worked very well. It extracted clock with lock in about 5-6 microseconds all the time! My target was 10 microseconds. What's more, it required only a single supply. Tentative though it was, it had an order to it that you don't easily overlook. About the simulators . . . I've found that fewer and fewer of my clients blindly, and it is blind, believe me, accept a "rock solid" prototype, until after a simulation reveals that it not only does work, but, rationally, should work. The simulator rules out easily overlooked synergies between miscalculations. These are immediately revealed in a simulator when you run sensitivity analyses and worst-case analyses. If the circuit is misdesigned, it often works well at one of the extremes, but doesn't work at nominal spec. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> >> senior engineers. The excuse was that "it's not a deliverable," but >> often >> >> the shoddy technique (air-wires, etc) made for problems which couldn't >> > >> >If that's another name for dead-bugging, there's nothing wrong with it if >> >used correctly. In fact IMHO it's the _only_ way to prototype >> >high-frequency circuits with any sort of reliability >> >> >> I have used dead-bug patches quite a few times myself. More specifically, >> dead-bugging is typically gluing or taping an IC onto another's back and >> running wires between it and the appropriate points in the circuit. I don't >> mean that, so much, but using multiple feet of #40 magnet wire with the >> shellac sanded or scraped off and having the scabbed-in IC floating on a web >> of wires 3" above the board . . . ??? > >Oh well, now that I would object to, even on a prototype. When I >dead-bug, all the large compoents (chips, etc) are fixed to the >groundplane (often a piece of copper-clad board). And the ground >connections are made with short pieces of 22swg-ish wire, soldered firmly >(they'd normally support the components even if they weren't stuck down). > >Of course, one other thing is that my circuits have generally been >intended to be used by myself, or perhaps somebody else who can read a >schematic only. I don't give them to unsuspecting 'customers' in that >state. Even so, my prototypes are solidly constructed. > >> >> >And if you trust simulations to correclty predict the behaviour of even >> >simple circuits, well, have I got some storys to tell you... >> > >> Yes, I have a few, too, but . . . Careful now . . . I've spend thousands of >> hours in front of a big tube waiting for a simulation. I am a big believer, >> and believe further, that anyone who claims that simulators don't have a >> place, as some old-timers do, just hasn't investigated sufficiently. > >This list is based on the principle that a new idea/method isn't necessarily >better than the old method. It might be, of course. And that sums up my views >on simulators. > >Oh, simulations have a place, that much is certain. They are very useful >tools if used correctly. > >What I object to in particular is : > >a) Designers who couldn't prototype the circuit if they tried >b) Designers who trust the simulator implicitly (even if the simulator >has no bugs, which is by no means certain, they might not have given it >all the right information) >c) Circuits that are 'delivered' after only having been tested on a >simulator. IMHO the real test of a circuit is does it work when constructed. >d) Simulators that take longer to provide less information that actually >building the circuit >e) Simulators that can't handle some common occurances (one classic FPGA >simulator can't handle external memory linked to the pins on the FPGA, >for example). >f) Designers who fiddle with the simulation 'until it works' rather than >using good solid design principles. Yes, fiddling with real hardware >'until it works' is equally bad, but I've found that because it's easier >to make changes on the simulator than on real hardware, the use of >simulators encourages that behaviour. >g) Simulators that plain get it wrong. Don't get me started here, suffice >it to say that I've spent too long tracking down glitches in other >peoples designs that the simulator claimed didn't exist. > >In short, in the hands of a good designer, a simulator is another useful >tool to be used alongside all the other tools. In the hands of a bad >designer, it generally leads to disaster. But alas Management often >believe the ads that say that %simulation-program allows anybody to do >design. > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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ASR-33 Data Format?

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 21:27 29/03/99 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > >> Actually, ASR-33's ran at 110 Baud rather than BPS. > >Same difference. No, Baud and BPS are different. Baud is the number of signalling changes per second. Normally, each signal change gives one bit and then Baud == BPS, but if you encode more than one bit per signal change then they are not the same. This is easily achieved if you have different voltages mean different values. For example, if you use -10V, -5V, 5V and 10V to encode 0, 1, 2 and 3 then the bit rate is twice the baud rate. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

26 years, 11 months

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Classic color video

by bill＠chipware.com

> What were they? I assume one was the termination switch. Well, I'm home now and I realize that I was using a Panasonic TR-120, not my Amdek (I wonder where that's buried?). The only switch that makes a difference is labled: Hi-Z 75 <ohm symbol> It looks good in the "Hi-Z" position although I can now see that if I turn up the brightness and contrast all the way I can just make out the display in the 75ohm position. I've just spent a couple of minutes fooling with the pot shaft sticking out of the back panel and, sure enough, it makes a difference in the behavior of the color regions that the color test program displays. I'll try it on my "good" TV in a little while.

26 years, 11 months

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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I've got it in the wrong way round several times and it's never done any >damage. It just doesn't work (no display at all IIRC). > >Berg cables in DEC machines are rarely keyed, alas. Actually, I can point to a number of counter-examples of that... Anyway, I'm simply going to keep the cables in the machine in case I want to do it at a later time... I have so many other things to do with the machine to get it running first... >I've found the VT11 prints - sort of. I've got the schematics of the 3 >boards : > >M7013 Display Control >A320 Display Generator >M7104 Bus control + bootstrap They might be useful at some point... but not yet (I haven't even found my VT11 boardset, if I have one). >What I don't have is any information on the backplane. So I don't think >I'll be of much use at the moment. Again, problem is moot until I have more of the required pieces... I'll keep you in mind for the other info though at some point... >I know I don't have the LPS printset. I do have a minimally-configured >LPS somewhere, though. I haven't opened mine up yet to see what I have... if you can easily get to yours, it might help to have info on board order, and UNIBUS connection point... (I take it a terminator has to be in the LPS since it connects to the UNIBUS itself...) BTW - It was pointed out to me that the file containing the picture of my haul was somehow protected... I've taken care of it. Look for a trip writeup with pictures in the near future (I've got it mostly written, I just have to insert the thumbnails and links to the full pictures)... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Your commment below about production is true enough, but such arrangements built sloppily will suffer from day-to-day use in an environment where cards are being move about. I'd say one should glue the part down and keep the haywires as short as possible. By the way, in the aerospace industry, 25 pieces is a long run. Almost everything is built in small quantity because you're only building one or two of those rockets or satellites, and by the time you do it again, the design requirements have changed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> >> The classic example is an IC suspended over a PCB by means of the little >> pieces of #40 wire which connect it to the circuit. They're not always a > >Well I'd probably stick the IC down to something, and use thicker wire >(stander wire-wrap wire is quite good for this), but I really don't see >the problem with doing this for experimental/prototype circuits, even >ones that are going to be used. I've done it many times and it's never >given any trouble. > >> terrible way to do things, and they've even been blessed by the analog >> weenies at NatSemi, but their use in modifying or even building circuits >> intended for some practical use is an abomination. Experimentation, well, >> OK, but to use it repeatedly? . . . > >Well, obviously you don't want to use it in production (far too >labour-intensive), but that should be the only problem if it's properly done. > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

take a look below, please. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> >> Unfortunately, in today's climate ("NOTHING's MY fault!") people buy a kit > >Yes, that attitude is _very_ annoying.... > >> A degree in engineering isn't sufficient qualification, either. Some of the >> crappiest work I ever saw while in the aerospace industry, was by fairly > >Oh, don't get me started on that. I have no engineering qualifications at >all, but, even if I say so myself, I could out-design, out-construct, and >plain out-hack a number of people with degrees in engineering that I met... > >A few classic cases that spring to mind : > >One chap said 'There are no 362.8 Ohm resistors in the box'. I said I >wasn't supprised and asked him what on earth he wanted it for. The >answer : An LED current limiting resistor. That was the value that the >formula had given, so that was obviously the value he needed. > >Another person had problems with a simple RC low-pass filter. And he >certainly had no idea about making sensible approximations. > >The only problem that comes from this is that mangement-droids seem to >think that qualifications imply competence/knowledge. So I'm stuck unable >to get a job :-( > >> senior engineers. The excuse was that "it's not a deliverable," but often >> the shoddy technique (air-wires, etc) made for problems which couldn't > >If that's another name for dead-bugging, there's nothing wrong with it if >used correctly. In fact IMHO it's the _only_ way to prototype >high-frequency circuits with any sort of reliability I have used dead-bug patches quite a few times myself. More specifically, dead-bugging is typically gluing or taping an IC onto another's back and running wires between it and the appropriate points in the circuit. I don't mean that, so much, but using multiple feet of #40 magnet wire with the shellac sanded or scraped off and having the scabbed-in IC floating on a web of wires 3" above the board . . . ??? >And if you trust simulations to correclty predict the behaviour of even >simple circuits, well, have I got some storys to tell you... > Yes, I have a few, too, but . . . Careful now . . . I've spend thousands of hours in front of a big tube waiting for a simulation. I am a big believer, and believe further, that anyone who claims that simulators don't have a place, as some old-timers do, just hasn't investigated sufficiently. > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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old computer

by SGRIF＠wxs.nl

I have a old Pertec computer that still workes (after one hour of waiting time to get warm). It 's a PCC2000. I live in the Netherlands, but i do not know were to go to with this stuff. Could you help me. I got your addres from jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com. Thanks.

26 years, 11 months

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PDP 11/73

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to >>me... Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. >Keep in mind that even a TSX machine has to boot through RT-11 SJ... >If the software is started as a result of a command in the STARTS.COM >file, then it should be possible to ^C out of the command file and >be left in RT-11 without accounts and passwords... >Beyond that, I don't know how one might crack the account/password >info on TSX... The usernames/passwords/privs are stored in a file called ACCESS.TSX. The information is stored in a lightly encrypted form (no MD5 here) and is most conveniently accessed by running TSAUTH. Many system managers take the TSX+ manual's recommendation and remove TSAUTH.SAV from the system disk, keeping it on a floppy for when it is necessary. Tim.

26 years, 11 months

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OT: early rising (was: RE: Timonium Hamfest)

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

On Thu, 1 Apr 1999 Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com wrote: > >> > What is it about hamfests that cause otherwise >> > sane individuals to get up at the crack of dawn? Who said we were getting up? Perhaps Hamfests start _just before bedtime_ :-) --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

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pdp-8 haul trip report

by mbg＠world.std.com

If anyone is interested in the story... try http://world.std.com/~mbg/move_report.html Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

1
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PDP 11/73

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to me... >Wonder if S&H has a way to get in.

26 years, 11 months

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PDP 11/73

by mbg＠world.std.com

>RT11 with multi user and passwords. > >Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to >me... Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. Keep in mind that even a TSX machine has to boot through RT-11 SJ... If the software is started as a result of a command in the STARTS.COM file, then it should be possible to ^C out of the command file and be left in RT-11 without accounts and passwords... Beyond that, I don't know how one might crack the account/password info on TSX... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

1
0
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PDP 11/73

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

For TSX, just boot the system in RT11 without TSX. Then run the tsauth program and set any passwords you like. I'm not positive, but ISTR tsauth doesn't require a password to run it if you're not running TSX at the time. Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Re: PDP 11/73 >> > It also has an RSX runtime system on it, but it asks for a >> >user/password which of course I don't have. Anyone have any idea >> >how to defeat this? >> >> RSX Runtime system? Under RT-11? Or on a separate disk? >> Passwords on an RT system? Not normally... you may be running >> some special software... > >RT11 with multi user and passwords. > >Hmm. Megan -- Sounds like a TSX-11 TSX Plus varient of some kind to me... >Wonder if S&H has a way to get in. > >Bill >

26 years, 11 months

1
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ASR-33 Data Format?

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I have an 7 KBaud modem over here so, where's your stick ? >(Hint: server side of an 56K analouge dial in :) >(small print: the calculation can be done different :) As I understand it, a baud is 'number of signal changes per second'. If you use an encoding method which requires a signal change for each bit, then 9600baud = 9600bps. Another encoding scheme might only require 4800baud (4800 signal changes) to get 9600 bps across the wire. In this case, it sounds like your modem uses a scheme which somehow gets 4 bits across the wire per signal change, so 7Kbaud (7000 signal changes per second) gets across 56Kbps (56000 bits per second). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

3
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PDP 11/73

by mbg＠world.std.com

> Well, since it was in the rack and feeling lonely and neglected, I >fired up my 11/73 tonight; the first example of DEC stuff I ever >owned. It is not in a DEC chassis, actually it is only about 40 >percent DEC. It is running RT11SJ V5.01. It has a full-height 5" >HD as DL: and one 8" floppy as DY: (RX02). It was used in a speech >pathology research lab and all that software is still on it, tho >I've no idea how to invoke it at this time. It has the usual >Fortran, Basic, and Cobol systems. I've used the Basic interpreter >to write some little programs just to play with it. > > It also has an RSX runtime system on it, but it asks for a >user/password which of course I don't have. Anyone have any idea >how to defeat this? RSX Runtime system? Under RT-11? Or on a separate disk? Passwords on an RT system? Not normally... you may be running some special software... > I am looking for the following: The 11/73 Processor manual. An >RL11-type controller card so I can hook up an RL02 to it. >Information on how to determine/configure the port assignments.. I >would like to have a line printer device and also a modem (for >Kermitting) but it has 8 ports on two cards, one of which is the >console port I found by repeatedly booting the system and watching >port pins with a scope. Sounds like a couple of DLV11-Js... 4 line serial async cards. > The model of the SLUs escapes me at the moment, and I'm too tired >to go pull the thing out from the rack and take the back off and get >the numbers. I just want to know how RT11 assigns and communicates >with it's ports. M8043 if it is a DLV11-J... As for configurating the ports, the console always has to be at the address 177560, with a vector of 60. The DLV11-J allows one of the ports to be the console. The other ports are configured for successive addresses in the range 176500 and up, with the vectors in the floating range (300-476). You're going to need to let us know what boards you really have, and then we can tell you what documentation you'll need to configure them. I would suspect, however, that it has already been configured for the software you have on it. RT-11 as distributed only knows about one terminal - the console, at the standard address. To support more than one terminal, you would have to do a sysgen (system generation, in which a new monitor is built using conditionals specified to the sysgen procedure). But remember, RT-11 is single-user, so even if you have multiple terminals, only one can be the console, and only the console can initiate programs. Such programs *can* then allocate the other terminals and control them (such as in the multi-user BASIC which is available for RT-11) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

4
3
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What do you do with 256k Wang

by frednlenny＠compuage.com

Okay, I own a computer so of course to everyone who doesn't I'm some kind of expert (not). So the other day this guy brings me this 256k Wang, wants me to set it up for him. Set up to do what? Alright maybe I may have some old DOS stuff a wordprocessor, spreadsheet, hell maybe I even got a pong game still laying around. My problem is how do I write to this thing? Its got one of those old floppy drives with the lever and all (never used them I was running a Mac before IBM saw the light). The hard drive is >from the stone age (is this SCSI compatible?) And the mother of all boards with connections for a network possibly? Probably a mainframe Yuk. Anybody ever own one of these things? Can anything be salvaged? Is this just an overgrown typewriter? How am I going to write to this thing without destroying my computer? Help Help Help... Here's some numbers: cpu 256kb, two PMO30-b 128k Memory expansion, PMO08 c.g.I (monitor controller?), pm02/022-b Winchester controller,Seagate HD, and of course the standard Wang kb and monitor (RGB I think they called them you know green just green). Everything works even has some old data base software still on it. FrednLenny(a)compuage.com

26 years, 11 months

3
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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see imbedded comments below. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 4:49 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> The kit, of course, has to be properly documented. In today's ready-made >> environment, little documentation accompanies a product, though even that's >> not often used. Today, the kit would be offered not so people can enjoy > >The reason why the documentation is 'seldom used' is that it's useless. >Some of the manuals I've seen for modern computer products would insult >anybody with more than 2 working braincells... > You are on the money there! There's so much simplistic fluff, yet no meat. > >> You're certainly right about the cost of documentation. That's why it's >> hard to recommend LINUX and some of the rather excellent pieces of software >> work which have been done in conjunction with it. The documentation is >> generally quite poor, and always several generations out of date. > >Eh? I'd much rather do something obscure with Linux given a standard >distribution and _any_ linux book (of _your_ choice if you like) than do >something simpler with, say, Windows given _every_ published book and SDK. > I've never been a promoter of heavily commercialized software, nor have I believed in the things the MS is doing with its software, e.g. the flight simulator built into EXCEL, but I've had VERY little trouble with '95. I've had to read very little documentation about the OS. Likewise, NT, though you can leave out the "VERY" with respect to it. '95 has always worked exactly as I expected and although there are a few things I can't explain about it, THIS very machine on which I normally do my communications, has been up continuously since June of '95 when I loaded a BETA on it and I've continuously updated it to where it's running OSR2 dated about a year ago, and the only times it's been down habe been due to hardware upgrades or hardware faults. At the POP, there are three LINUX boxes running satisfactorily for over a year, as terminal server, among other things, and one really can't complain. I just complained because of the documentation maze, which is certainly in ample evidence. > That would be really nice if there were a genuinely "standard" distribution. Perhaps the current trend toward increased commercialization will lead to that. I've never claimed to be a software expert, though I've been coding for a living, on and off, since about 1965. I've never managed to get even one instant of useful work for myself out of LINUX, even though I've gone through numerous releases and several distributions. The documents are almost always so far out of sync as to be useless and are NEVER sufficiently correct to instill confidence in one unfamiliar with its inards. I suppose one who knows exactly what he's looking for will find it, but as a foreigner to LINUX, I didn't find the dozens of GBytes of doc files, often conflicting, to be much help. Example: Simple tasks like installing LINUX on an ESDI drive larger than what the BIOS supports are not supported by any written documents, though the writing about other drive types (not SCSI) may shed light on it, though the doc's about EIDE are also conflicting. These are made hopelessly complicated by the various often self-contradictory attempts at describing what's to be done. I finally gave up on the half-dozen or so conflicting write-ups I had and worked the details out with a fellow in Germany who, though his English was limited, as is my German-"computerese," managed to convince me that it was really quite straightforward. My goal, however, was to use a LINUX box rather than an NT box in order to provide a TCP/IP gateway to share the modem, replace my NETWARE server, and process FAX traffic over the LAN as well. Though it claimed (announced) to have loaded all the appropriate modules, it didn't show any signs of doing what I wanted. Now, there was no indication that it wouldn't. . . > >Linux documentation, at least the stuff I've worked with is an order of >magnitude better than that of most other OS's (although some DEC docs >kits are even better). For one thing, Linux documentation is pretty >complete (it doesn't normally miss out stuff that might 'confuse the >user'). And if you have problems, you cd /usr/src/linux and dig around :-) > Yes, you can and must do that, but it's like having a system of 25 equations in 12 unknowns. The solution is in there somewhere, but which one? > >And yes, I do consider source code to be possible documentation for a >piece of software, just as I consider a schematic to be possible >documentation for a piece of hardware. It's true that source code SHOULD be part of the documentation. In too many cases it's ALL the documentation, and though the code was modified, the comments weren't kept in sync. That's where it's a real pain when they leave out key words like NOT. > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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Collectors list

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi all, Because i feel so lonely here in Denver, i got the idea of collecting a list of the listmembers. I simply want to see, in what areas you can meet people an what they collecting. I think a list with only a zip code, name, which computer/other stuff you collect should do it. What do you think ? cheers, emanuel

26 years, 11 months

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Timonium Hamfest

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

The Timonium Hamfest had an excellent turnout. Tailgating spots were sold out. I spent half the day there, purchasing the following equipment: 2 Bell & Howell Apple II+'s. Both are in rather poor condition, the one even has an ordinairy II+ keyboard and no power supply. I'm thinking about putting a IIgs mb in it for a "Stealth GS". The other is missing the '0' key. Anybody have one they'd like to part with? 6 NEC Ultralite Notebooks. Does anybody know what the power adapter for these is like? They have interesting connectors. I'll probably just hook the power up to the battery connectors. Two of the notebooks are labeled "lights up, but won't boot." If anybody wants one of these most likely borken units before I start to fool around with them, the price is $10. 2 Compaq Portables. I'll sell one of them for $25, if anybody's interested. I just need to test it first. 6 IBM PC Convertibles. Last summer I purchased about a dozen IBM PC Convertible AC adapters at a hamfest for $1, knowing that some day I'd come across a pile of Convertibles at a Hamfest, lacking power supplies. Well wouldn't you know there was a stack of Convertibles at the Timonium show - and not one of them had an AC adapter. If anybody's interested in one of these, figure about $25. IBM 5155 Compaq Portable III Grid Gridlite IBM 3127 Apple IIgs-style ADB keyboard - finally! I know next to nothing about the following units, and I'm not sure if any of them are ten years old. If somebody could give me some details on them (espeically on the SparcServer 470), I'd appreciate it. HP Apollo 400 ("upgraded to 439") Sun SparcServer 470 Sun SparcStation IPX Sun SparcStation ELC DecServer 200/MC (I have two - any interest?) Anbody know where I can get kb, mice, and monitors for these systems? What I missed: A Xycon computer, complete with two external 8" drives and keyboard. Three all-in-one "business" computers, with 5.25" drives (I forget the name, but they sure looked interesting) A PDP-11/44. Would the offending party identify himself? :-)

26 years, 11 months

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Computer busses.... (& Z-380)

by edick＠idcomm.com

A vectored interrupt is one in which the interrupting device provides part of the interrupt address. On the Z-80, this was done by the peripheral when it saw the processor's interrupt acknowledge sequence and this meant that it had to "see" both the M1 and the IORQ signals. It then reset its interrupt logic when it saw the RETI instruction being fetched. As you may have concluded, the Z-80 peripherals had to be as fast as the processor, and had to have access to the necessary processor control signals. I've never tried running a fast processor with slow peripherals and only slow the processor down to the peripheral rate when M1 or IOREQ were active. That might actually work so long as the peripheral had time to get its bus-side task finished before its next transaction came along. That might be a way to decouple the peripherals and processor. What I normally did is run the I/O cycles slowly(4 MHz), insert a wait state in the M1 cycle, and not use the Z-80 peripherals. That way I didn't have to present the M1 and IOREQ signals to each peripheral. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Computer busses.... (& Z-380) >At 02:22 PM 4/1/99 +1, you wrote: >> >>> I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What >>> else should be on a bus besides: >> >>Maybe take a look at the Z380 Bus - again a design to include >>the best ideas of two worlds (like the Z80 has been). > >I've got 4 Z380s!! I want to put together a parallel processor machine >with a cool front panel of LEDs and switches.... I don't care for the >Z380's extra pins like the Low address pin, medium address pin and hig >address pins. > >Do I really need to connect the M1 pin to anything? I mean why would I need >to insert wait states if the memory is faster than the processor? > >Explain something to me... On a reception of an INT signal, the processor >jumps to a set memory location and starts executing the code. Right? What >is a vectored interrupt (it's been a LONG time since I wired uPs and I >can't remember.)? >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

26 years, 11 months

1
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Computer busses....

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Anyone have any idea what was/is the best bus design? I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What else should be on a bus besides: ADDRESS DATA RD/WR MEM/IO BUS REQ BUS ACK INT INT ACK WAIT HALT RESET CLOCK ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

26 years, 11 months

3
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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Wow! Cool! Looks like you have a W9042 Extender Board which is >specifically described as part of the FP11-A Option in my KK11-A tech >manual and by association, one is also part of the KK11-A cache option. >The manual mentions: "The W9042 Extender board Assy. is stored in the >backplane and used for some maintenance operations." Great... >When you have to use an extender board to troubleshoot the adjacent M8265 >in a cache-option-only system, the W9042 plugs into the top connector on >the M8268 Cache module and then the over-the-top connector plugs the two >together. If troubleshooting the M8268, then the W9042 is plugged into >the top conn of the 8265 and the o-t-t conn board connects both together. >Neat! Aha... that was the missing piece... having one of the boards on an extender... it all makes sense now... >Same for troubleshooting the systems with both cache and FP11 options >except two W9042s are used. I actually seem to remember another one somewhere in my collection, I'll have to check someday to see if it is... >I've got an extra set of them too plus a cache. No spare FP11 tho. Notice >how heavy that FP11 is? Sure is a lot of 'stone' in all those AMD 2901s! Yep... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

1
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HP 9845B <- free paper

by russmiller＠jps.net

I've got several cartons of paper for the HP 9845 that I'd like to get rid of (you pay shipping or pick up in Sacramento, CA area), as well as a HP 9876A thermal printer (heavy) and a few boxes of paper for it. Russ Miller mailto:russmiller@jps.net

26 years, 11 months

1
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[Fwd: FS: Sun SPARCclassic machines]

by bluoval＠mindspring.com

Anyone interested? Just saw it and thought someone here might want it. refer all questions to the original poster. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FS: Sun SPARCclassic machines Date: 1 Apr 1999 04:22:17 GMT From: Jonathan Hall <jonhall(a)onyx.southwind.net> Organization: SouthWind Internet Access, Inc. Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware,misc.forsale.computers.other.misc I have two Sun SPARCclassic "lunchbox-style" machines available. One with 24mb RAM, one with 48mb RAM. Each has a 540mb SCSI hard drive, no floppy drive. I have a 19" greyscale monitor for each one, although shipping is a bit expensive on those (estimated $35 within the U.S.). I'm asking $200 for the 24mb system and $250 for the 48mb system, or make an offer. Each system has SunOS 5.5 installed, although I do not have passwords for either of them so a reinstallation will likely be required. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jonathan Hall * jonhall(a)future.goessel.ks.us * PGP public key available http://www2.southwind.net/~jonhall * PGP Key ID: FE 00 FD 51 -= Running Debian Linux, kernel 2.0.30 =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

26 years, 11 months

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PAGING: Martin Marshall and Frank McConnel

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Gentlemen, I attempted to send Teledisk to you electronically tonight. Here's what happened. MARTIN: The mail bounced, using the address martinm(a)allwest.net with an 'Unknown User' error. Please provide a current address that will allow you to receive a 100K+ file attach. FRANK: Your system rejected the send because of the attach. Apparently, reanimators.org has a 100K size limit. Can you provide an alternate address? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 11 months

2
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Paging the following folks...

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Please pardon this somewhat unusual use of the list, but I've gotten no response whatsoever to E-mails. PAGING TIM SHOPPA, JOE RIGDON, AND MIKE McMANUS... Will the three of you please get in touch with me, via E-mail, ASAP, regarding your participation in the Teledisk group buy? I have sent repeated E-mails in your direction concerning the group buy. I have not received so much as an acknowledgement to any of them. If you are still interested in participating, please respond. If I do not hear from you, I will assume that you are no longer interested, and I will release your shares to those on the waiting list. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 11 months

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PDP 11/73

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Well, since it was in the rack and feeling lonely and neglected, I fired up my 11/73 tonight; the first example of DEC stuff I ever owned. It is not in a DEC chassis, actually it is only about 40 percent DEC. It is running RT11SJ V5.01. It has a full-height 5" HD as DL: and one 8" floppy as DY: (RX02). It was used in a speech pathology research lab and all that software is still on it, tho I've no idea how to invoke it at this time. It has the usual Fortran, Basic, and Cobol systems. I've used the Basic interpreter to write some little programs just to play with it. It also has an RSX runtime system on it, but it asks for a user/password which of course I don't have. Anyone have any idea how to defeat this? I have the appropriate RT11 Orange Wall for this machine, but no hardware docs at all. I am looking for the following: The 11/73 Processor manual. An RL11-type controller card so I can hook up an RL02 to it. Information on how to determine/configure the port assignments.. I would like to have a line printer device and also a modem (for Kermitting) but it has 8 ports on two cards, one of which is the console port I found by repeatedly booting the system and watching port pins with a scope. The model of the SLUs escapes me at the moment, and I'm too tired to go pull the thing out from the rack and take the back off and get the numbers. I just want to know how RT11 assigns and communicates with it's ports. Its possible it has an Ethernet card in it too... that would make it fun to hook it up with the uVAX II and let them share peripherals. Cheerz and Thanks John

26 years, 11 months

1
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Collectors list

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Where I live, my zip code is 15005, which is for Baden. I actually live about 5-10 miles away from Baden, and just have a Baden address because Economy (small) doesn't have a post office. The neighbor across the street has a Sewickley zip code, and my neighbor next door has a Freedom zip code. It all depended on when the house was built and when the person moved in. Going by a zip code isn't a very accurate way to find people where I live (although most places are probably more organized). -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Roberts <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Collectors list > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Thursday, 1 April 1999 9:14 >Subject: Re: Collectors list > > > >>> So, if you are willing to give your zip/postal code, in effect that is >>> an almost exact location of, at the most, a few hundred buildings >>> and often only a few dozen. > >Good Grief. > >5540 is my post code. But ours are not that specific. >In a big city they usually narrow it down to a suburb or two, but 5540 >is the code for the entire city of Port Pirie. (15,000 people) >Comes from being less crowded I guess... > >Geoff Roberts >Computer Systems Manager >Saint Mark's College >Port Pirie, South Australia. >Email: geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au >ICQ #: 1970476 >Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 >Mobile: 61-411-623-978 >Fax: 61-8-8633-0104 > > > >

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm just about to consider firing up one of my old CP/M S-100 boxes just for spite and to see if I can get it to run the way I want. It starts with wanting the CPU board, and I'll probably have to try several, to run the 8 MHz Z-80H I still have lying about somewhere. Then I want to run the 8" Shugart hard drive using an XCOMP HDC board set which is purported to work better than the MSC board I used on my own station back about 20 years. If I can get the CPU to run, and I believe I have fast enough static memories to handle that, no wait states required, I think, then it might be interesting to see what one can squeeze out of the old 8" winchester. I know I can whack up a wire-wrapped version to work, and then I won't have to worry about the bus timing at all, at least for starters, because a FDC/HCD combination will easily fit on a board with all the necessary logic, RAM, ROM, and I/O. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI > ><That was along time ago. Perhaps it was 56K rather than 48. All my CPM ><systems, and I had several at the time, used 64K, though that's a small ><difference nowadays. > >No, It's a result of knowing the machine and CPM and programming around it. >The base distribution of CPM for that machine would not use memory above >E800h due to the controller. It didn't meant it couldn't be there. If you >didn't program around that the best you could do was 52k. > >All my other machines have 64k of ram or more. The practical aspect of it >is that most apps 48k was plenty and only a few really wanted that little >bit more. > >Oh the softsectro controller using the 765... The IO was also memory mapped >into the FFF0->FFFFh segment of ram. that way I could use the more flexible >memory ops that were also faster and also the controller could be >co-resident. > >Allison >

26 years, 11 months

1
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HP9845B

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

Hi gang, I found someone that has a HP9845-B for sale. There doesn't seem to be too much info available on the web for this thing. Wondering how collectible this machine is? TIA, Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>

26 years, 11 months

3
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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Kindly peruse the imbedded comments below. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner <spc(a)armigeron.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: >> >> >> You're certainly right about the cost of documentation. That's why it's >> >> hard to recommend LINUX and some of the rather excellent pieces of software >> >> work which have been done in conjunction with it. The documentation is >> >> generally quite poor, and always several generations out of date. >> > >> >Eh? I'd much rather do something obscure with Linux given a standard >> >distribution and _any_ linux book (of _your_ choice if you like) than do >> >something simpler with, say, Windows given _every_ published book and SDK. > > And I'd rather do with something that works without problems. > >> ... but I've had VERY little trouble with '95. > > When I first ran '95, it was because a project I was working on required >it (or a Solaris box, but we couldn't afford a true Sun, and Solaris for the >x86, which is also expensive, isn't that great). For the year I used the >box I had no problems with it. Well, a few. Okay, it took too long to >change the dial up networking, and swapping the mouse (bus for serial and >back again several times) was an hour or so of frustration. And then there >was the time I put the machine on the local network only to have it insist >on dialing up. But other than that, it worked. I even got the Microsoft >telnet client to behave (although that required a registry hack). > > It was only after a month of someone else using it (and installing a crap >load of applications, mostly Microsoft ones) did it become totally unsuable, >to the point where I nearly lost some very important files because it >refused to boot. > > I tried installing '95 six times from scratch (across two days) and >failing miserably at it. Got fed up enough to install Linux on the thing >(the project I needed '95 for was long finished) and never had a problem >with the box after that. > > Then again, I've been using Linux regularly since '92 and remember the >days of downloading 40 disk images ... > >> At the POP, there are three LINUX boxes running satisfactorily for over a >> year, as terminal server, among other things, and one really can't complain. >> I just complained because of the documentation maze, which is certainly in >> ample evidence. > > Which is not to say I haven't had my share of problems with Linux. The >first time I connected two Linux boxes via PPP took myself and another >friend 16 hours to get working (with a few long distance calls to a friend >who helped us imensely). And we were NOT computer illiterate people (I had >been using Unix for four years at that point). The next time we got PPP >working it only took four hours. Yes, getting PPP to work on the terminal server for the ISDN lines (the first one we did) was a real pain. Linux doesn't like having you go directly into the system with out a stop at the shell, even though that's MUCH more secure. > Then recently was the IDE/SCSI fiasco (system with both SCSI and IDE >drives, with the boot drive being SCSI. Upgrading the kernel in THAT system >is a nightmare let me tell you, lilo being braindead in that situation (``No >damn you! The SCSI disk! The SCSI disk! Why the @#$@#$@ did you put the >Q#@#$ kernel on the IDE? DIE LILO SCUM!'')). You must have been reading my mail! >> Example: Simple tasks like installing LINUX on an ESDI drive larger than >> what the BIOS supports are not supported by any written documents, though >> the writing about other drive types (not SCSI) may shed light on it, though >> the doc's about EIDE are also conflicting. These are made hopelessly >> complicated by the various often self-contradictory attempts at describing >> what's to be done. I finally gave up on the half-dozen or so conflicting >> write-ups I had and worked the details out with a fellow in Germany who, >> though his English was limited, as is my German-"computerese," managed to >> convince me that it was really quite straightforward. > > I found this works (especially under RedHat). Make three partitions, the >first physical one small, 5M is more than enough space. The second I >usually make swap (typically twice the physical RAM, max swap space for a >single partition is 128M, but you can have multiple swap partitions) and the >third the rest of the disk. Turn off DOS compatibility (if using Linux's >version of fdisk. There might be an option under Disk Druid, but I don't >use that). Mark the first partition as bootable. That's about what I wound up doing. . . > The first partition becomes `/boot' where the kernel resides, and that >takes care of the problems of large disks not supported properly under the >BIOS. The third partition becomes '/' and contains the rest of the file >system. When you format the drives, select logical addressing (under the >RedHat installation program, it says use this for SCSI, I use it for any >type of drive system). what I said before . . . > Of course I've now branded myself as a Linux expert here 8-) > >> >And yes, I do consider source code to be possible documentation for a >> >piece of software, just as I consider a schematic to be possible >> >documentation for a piece of hardware. >> >> It's true that source code SHOULD be part of the documentation. In too many >> cases it's ALL the documentation, and though the code was modified, the >> comments weren't kept in sync. That's where it's a real pain when they >> leave out key words like NOT. > > I've worked at a company that discouraged comments in code because ``The >code IS the documentation.'' And don't forget that programmers in general >hate to document, you end up with crap like we have today (well, that and >programmers can't program either, but that's a different rant ... ) > > -spc (Programmer forced into sysadmin and hating every minute of it) >

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That was along time ago. Perhaps it was 56K rather than 48. All my CPM <systems, and I had several at the time, used 64K, though that's a small <difference nowadays. No, It's a result of knowing the machine and CPM and programming around it. The base distribution of CPM for that machine would not use memory above E800h due to the controller. It didn't meant it couldn't be there. If you didn't program around that the best you could do was 52k. All my other machines have 64k of ram or more. The practical aspect of it is that most apps 48k was plenty and only a few really wanted that little bit more. Oh the softsectro controller using the 765... The IO was also memory mapped into the FFF0->FFFFh segment of ram. that way I could use the more flexible memory ops that were also faster and also the controller could be co-resident. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Well I'd probably stick the IC down to something, and use thicker wire <(stander wire-wrap wire is quite good for this), but I really don't see <the problem with doing this for experimental/prototype circuits, even <ones that are going to be used. I've done it many times and it's never <given any trouble. This technique is called dead bug or ugly and is effective for RF work. I've done entire protos using a peice of copper clad as a solderable groundplane to "fly" things above and in a few cases the later PWB production version didn't perform quite as well due to distributed capacitances and inductances. However even dead bug still calls for reasonably solid mechanical construction using other components or stiff wire to secure things. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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Timonium Hamfest

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>>Apple IIgs-style ADB keyboard - finally! > >Which model keyboard is this? The "Apple Desktop Bus" keyboard. Tom Owad

26 years, 11 months

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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>They go from the 10 pin connectors on the frontpanel control board >(KY11B) to either the spare 10 pin connectors on the FPU next to the top >connector or to the 2 10 pin blocks of the connector on the CPU >(control?) board that the FPU top connector goes onto (this will make >sense if you're looking at the machine). Again I can't remember the >twists, but try it until maintenance mode works, I guess. I figured that's what they did... but I didn't want to simply plug them in without knowing which way was correct, and which way *might* let some magic smoke escape... I found the 10-pin ribbon cables in some sort of paddle board which is marked as an FP11-A extender board... it has male and female connectors of the type used to connect the CPU and FPU, but at opposite ends of the board. It *also* has two sets of fingers, one of which is *obviously* wire as a grant card... what the heck is this thing, and how is it used? BTW - I found an extra set of KD11-EA processor boards... so I tested them in my machine today and they worked fine. I'm glad to know that I have some spares for the machine... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

Have a look at the imbedded comments below, please. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI ><This would require a variable length or variable preset counter sourcing th ><clock. The problem was knowing when it was going the generate an M1 cycle > >I used a shift register and an or gate. > and I used a counter and a gate. Today I'd use a part of a PAL, as you probably would as well. > ><counts. Either that or you'd have to look for the clock edge after the ><appearance of the M1 strobe and KNOW it wasn't part of the interrupt ><acknowledge. Neither was thrifty with logic, nor was it fun. > >M1 made it easy. the logic was if M1 then hod clock one cycle. Yup, that's more or less what's needed. > ><I had one friend whose NorthStar convinced me every time I saw it, that I ><didn't want one. We were using CP/M, and you really didn't have even one ><byte to spare in your measly 64K. His NorthStar only had 48K of memory ><space, for some reason. Maybe it was because they'd mapped that region fo > >Funny mine has 56k to the base of BDOS. The trick is CCP and BDOS resides >below the controller at E800h and the BIOS in the 4K at F000h. I also >have a PROM burnt for F800 (trivial). The first banking scheme I did had >mappable 4k pages in the F000h space. Very nice really. Later I went >softsector using a uPD765 (I worked for NEC sooo...) and pulled the hard >sector controller. That was along time ago. Perhaps it was 56K rather than 48. All my CPM systems, and I had several at the time, used 64K, though that's a small difference nowadays. >Allison >

26 years, 11 months

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Collectors list

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, 1 April 1999 9:14 Subject: Re: Collectors list >> So, if you are willing to give your zip/postal code, in effect that is >> an almost exact location of, at the most, a few hundred buildings >> and often only a few dozen. Good Grief. 5540 is my post code. But ours are not that specific. In a big city they usually narrow it down to a suburb or two, but 5540 is the code for the entire city of Port Pirie. (15,000 people) Comes from being less crowded I guess... Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104

26 years, 11 months

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IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter??

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Does anyone know what the function of an IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter is/was? Looks like a punch card sorter of some sort. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99]

26 years, 11 months

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Unibus board ID

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Does anyone know what an AD413B is? I've got a UNIBUS board with no manufacturer, two berg connectors and this product code. Other marks are the number 200225-03 on the solder side and "P/N 200791" on the component side. --Chuck

26 years, 11 months

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More new finds

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Got a Panasonic HHC model RL-H1400 today for $5 with the printer and the tray they both fit in. No power supply came with it so have not tested it yet. Also got a box full cards, mb's, and cables for $2, have gone into yet to see what all I have. Got a few other items today but they do not meet the 10 year rule. John

26 years, 11 months

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Boy maimed by VAX? That's nothing! :)

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

That's nothing. Me and a buddy broke all 10 of his toes with a PDP-11/44. Was remarkably easy (and entertaining!) too. 44 is in a dual cab, weighs ~600 pounds. (I think... We never weighed it. It was REALLY FSCKING HEAVY.) Anyway, we wanted to get it down a narrow hallway, but DEC, in their infinite wisdom, fixed the rear wheels of the box so they didn't caster. So, we got a handcart that had 4 wheels (2 up by the handle), laid it down, and manhandled the 44 onto the cart. We start shoving down hall, 44 slides partially off the cart and onto the floor. BUddy comes around the side to see if the box had removed my fingers (I was in front), and has his toes under the box as he goes. Did we mention the cart had a curved handle? Anyway, the weight of the 44 pushed the cart backwards, it departs the area at a high rate of speed, and the box drops 6 inches onto his toes. We had a hell of a time removing the machine from the hallway... So, how badly did you hurt the hand? -------

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

The classic example is an IC suspended over a PCB by means of the little pieces of #40 wire which connect it to the circuit. They're not always a terrible way to do things, and they've even been blessed by the analog weenies at NatSemi, but their use in modifying or even building circuits intended for some practical use is an abomination. Experimentation, well, OK, but to use it repeatedly? . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 3:42 PM Subject: RE: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> the shoddy technique (air-wires, etc) made for problems which couldn't > >I'll bite. What's an "air-wire". >

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Unfortunately, in today's climate ("NOTHING's MY fault!") people buy a kit with the assumption that the seller will provide whatever expertise is required to assemble it correctly. That was not the case 20 years back. This kind of handholding is frustrating and costly. A degree in engineering isn't sufficient qualification, either. Some of the crappiest work I ever saw while in the aerospace industry, was by fairly senior engineers. The excuse was that "it's not a deliverable," but often the shoddy technique (air-wires, etc) made for problems which couldn't readily be explained, but which didn't occur when a competent technician built the same circuit. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) >> I claim the other way around. Most kit suppliers have to spend _more_ on >> technical support because they have to help people who try kits too hard for >> them and expect the supplier to sort out their mistakes. > >On the other hand, I don't suppose total newbies (you know, the sort of >person who has problems inserting Disk 3 because the drive is already >full with disks 1 _and_ 2) would even attempt a kit... > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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More strange finds

by mbg＠world.std.com

>You can also use a Unibus host + a DW11B + a Q-bus backplane with CD >interconnect. The VSV11 was one of the devices _supported_ on the DW11B >(and the combination was called a VS11 IIRC). Good point... also, is there any support for it on uVaxen? >I have the VSV11 prints - I came across them earlier today when I was >looking for the VT11 stuff for Megan. I also found some 11/780 prints >(Unibus interface and WCS option prints, I think) I could use a copy of the prints... I have a VSV11 board set at home, but no joystick for it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<This would require a variable length or variable preset counter sourcing th <clock. The problem was knowing when it was going the generate an M1 cycle I used a shift register and an or gate. <counts. Either that or you'd have to look for the clock edge after the <appearance of the M1 strobe and KNOW it wasn't part of the interrupt <acknowledge. Neither was thrifty with logic, nor was it fun. M1 made it easy. the logic was if M1 then hod clock one cycle. <I had one friend whose NorthStar convinced me every time I saw it, that I <didn't want one. We were using CP/M, and you really didn't have even one <byte to spare in your measly 64K. His NorthStar only had 48K of memory <space, for some reason. Maybe it was because they'd mapped that region fo Funny mine has 56k to the base of BDOS. The trick is CCP and BDOS resides below the controller at E800h and the BIOS in the 4K at F000h. I also have a PROM burnt for F800 (trivial). The first banking scheme I did had mappable 4k pages in the F000h space. Very nice really. Later I went softsector using a uPD765 (I worked for NEC sooo...) and pulled the hard sector controller. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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ASR-33 Data Format?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] Having secured a copy of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC on paper tape ] (autographed by the man himself!), I'm in the process of adding a ] teletype simulator to the COSMAC Elf simulator. It's a bit strange Without knowing anything much about ASR-33's in particular, but having done bit-banging serial stuff before, here are my best guesses. Do you have any delay on the recieving end that could make it miss the beginning of the next byte? The reason for the stop bit(s) was to give the reciever time to do something with the byte that came in, before the next byte started arriving. If the reciever needs more processing time, then the sender should include more stop bits. (In the real world, I've never heard of needing more than two stop bits.) Also, bits typically don't have any space between them. So, for instance, you should not return to '0' between sending two '1' bits. Between bytes, a reciever will typically watch for a falling edge to know when a start bit has begun. So if you return to zero even for an instant between two stop bits, the reciever may interpret that as the start bit of the next byte. And of course, between bytes, the line has to remain at '1', or risk looking like a start bit. Good luck! Bill.

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Sorry if this thread is old hat now - I've been having a hard time keeping up with the volume of traffic here recently. > Kits are often more costly than ready-built products because kit builders > fix their mistakes, while you can't expect the user of ready-made stuff to > fix your mistakes. Tech support is a necessity, yet most kit builders don't > need it. Tech support is what costs when you're selling a ready-built > product for the home computer market. This is strange. You are saying: Tech support is what costs. Kits don't need so much. Therefore kits are more expensive. ??? I claim the other way around. Most kit suppliers have to spend _more_ on technical support because they have to help people who try kits too hard for them and expect the supplier to sort out their mistakes. Kits generally have shorter production runs than complete units, hence less quantity discount / economy of scale. Finally, kits are generally better documented than complete units sold as such. And documentation costs a lot! Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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The move is accomplished!

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: >I hope it goes as well for me. (But it probably won't). To which Max replied: > If you expect to mess up, you'll probably find some way to do just that... > --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) In contrast, if you *don't* expect to mess up, you *definitely* will. The tricky bit is to foresee exactly what your mess-up will be, and prevent it. Bill.

26 years, 11 months

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Demos (was:Re: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >> Perhaps, have the machines run the demos that they were running in the >> showrooms? [...] > Does anyone remember what the VIC-20 was usually up to in department store > displays? > > PETs? Pets I do remember. At least, the 8032. There was a screen that said in large letters "80 COLUMNS" which was manipulated in various ways using the (new) 8000-series ROM routines for scrolling in various directions, defining a virtual screen smaller than the real one, etc. Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>The rightmost slots in a DD11-PK (11/34 CPU backplane) are special. No >way is slot 2 an MUD slot, for example. We are talking about the same >backplane, I trust... I found a couple of pages in the printset which show the board order for some standard configurations (11/04, 11/34 and 11/34a), and one of the pages clearly shows that slot 2 is a MUD slot. It just so happens that the second board of the CPU goes in it. I guess the printset could be wrong... but I'd like to believe I can trust it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Z-80 M1?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Because the Opcode fetch cycle was shorter than other memory cycles, it was common practice to use M1* to insert a wait state. This added an extra clock tick to the length of the cycle, making it almost as long as normal memory cycles. That practice also set back DRAM design by a mite. It would have been smarter for the chip designers to cough up the MREQ* a bit sooner during M1* in order to make it easier to distinguish between opcode fetch cycles and interrupt acknowledg cycles. Hindsight is always 20-20 . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Z-80 M1? >[Z80 M1 signal] > >> M1 signals the start of an instruction fetch or an interrupt cycle start. >> It's machine status to differentiate a opcode fetch from a data read or >> write. it serves other uses especially with the Z80 periperal chips. > >Sure, and if asserted along with IORQ/ it signals an interrupt >acknowledge cycle (Which is logical, as at least in Mode 0, it is going >to execute an instruction fetched from the peripheral chip). > >But I guess the question is _why_ would external logic need to know that >a memory cycle was an instruction fetch rather than a data read. In some >ways signalling a memory cycle that wasn't addressed from the PC would be >more use. > >I suppose some of the peripheral chips recognised things like RETI >instructions so they'd need to know that the appropriate bytes were being >fetched as instructions and not data. Is that the only common use, though? > >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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Tandy 100 pile - could it be valuable?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Derek Peschel <dpeschel(a)u.washington.edu> wrote: ] Periodically I swing by Surplus Property here. It's very disappointing; ... mucho deletia ... Sounds like certain other surplus shops I know of. If it is publically accessible, make sure to periodically check their dumpster. And it is probably a good idea not to be obvious about it; even if it is legal, any adminstrators getting wind of it will imagine injury lawsuits, and put up barbed wire and security guards. Cheers, Bill.

26 years, 11 months

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Classic color video

by bill＠chipware.com

I recently acquired, and now have up and running, an OSI C4PMF. It has composite video output, 16 color. I have a mono composite monitor and the display is OK, some of the colors show up as grays (well, greens actually) but others show up in a sort of flickering effect. Video signals is one area in which my ignorance shines! I first tried to plug it straight into the 'video in' RCA jack on my color TV. It was trying to do something, but no dice. Next I RTFM. Says I need an RF Modulator. "I've got one of those" I think. I dig through my box of Timex-Sinclairs (BTW has just about everybody on this list, when they told their friends and family that they were collecting old computers, been given piles of TS-1000s?). I find one of those little silver boxes and hook it up. One problem, the box has the old 2-wire TV antenna cable on it, the TV has coaxial antenna in, but I dig through my junk box and find a converter. Switch the TV to channel 3 and... still no good. Pop the back off the little silver box... it looks like it's just a switch. No other components in the box except for a couple of torids that the wire loops around. Is this box an RF Modulator? Is there some simple circut I can build >from Radio Shack parts that would convert to (NTSC I guess?) 'video in' on my TV. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink

26 years, 11 months

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Sorry, I posted a personal note to the list.

by kstumpf＠unusual.on.ca

I took the time to copy Colan's address and was planning on replacing the list address with Colan's and the rest is history. I'm really sorry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 .

26 years, 11 months

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t3c meeting

by kstumpf＠unusual.on.ca

Hello Brian, > > >I've raised the idea with Larry about a get together sometime on the >weekend after easter, lunch on me. > > >Colan > > Please excuse me too, but the timing is incredible. I'd like to have a BBQ in Kitchener in June. Not an organizational event, but just a social gathering of computer collectors. I was thinking of supplying the propane and iced tea and everyone contributing a few dollars for burgers, etc. We could meet around noon on a sunny Saturday afternoon in June and be bidding each other farewell by supper time. My "ware"house is large enough and convenient enough to hold the gathering. Please bounce that idea around also. What does t3c stand for? Yours in good faith.

26 years, 11 months

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Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I don't remember what my point was or where the original notion that kits often cost more that ready-made, except that if one sells kits, the folks who buy them usually are competent and capable of fixing their mistakes. If you sell both kits and ready-made, not only do you have to offer tech support to the buyers of the ready-made product because you attract a wholly less competent buyer, but a goodly share of your kit buyers are peoplenot otherwise competent hoping to save a few dollars by messing the kit up and then having your tech support people nursemaid them through the repair. I remember that the kits I bought were accompanied by a parts inventory, an assembly drawing, a schematic, and an extensive set of assembly and checkout instructions, none of which accompanies today's PC-oriented products. You're lucky if you can figure out from any of the paperwork, who built the product and whom to call if you have a problem. The kit, of course, has to be properly documented. In today's ready-made environment, little documentation accompanies a product, though even that's not often used. Today, the kit would be offered not so people can enjoy building it, though that's an added benefit for those who really do enjoy it, but rather to circumvent FCC restrictions if that's still possible. The FCC testing would keep almost any of the products of this sort with which I became familiar back in the '70's off the market, first because they would knock out TV reception for a considerable distance, and secondly because these volume in which they were built would not cover the cost of the testing. If one took the films used twenty years ago for, say, an S-100 board set and made it available as a kit, i.e. with all the IC's, passives, and hardware, it would cost quite a bit more than it did back 20 years ago. That's because of inflation and because labor to buy, stock , kit, and document the thing would cost more, not just the difference for inflation, but really more, because the labor cost buys less these days, and because people simply expect more than they once did. It would also make sense to silkscreen as much of the documentation for jumper and switch settings onto the board so the user can't lose it. Though the old IMSAI boards I have are solder-masked, the old ALTAIR ones are not. That could complicate building a kit as well, particularly for folks not experienced with soldering. You're certainly right about the cost of documentation. That's why it's hard to recommend LINUX and some of the rather excellent pieces of software work which have been done in conjunction with it. The documentation is generally quite poor, and always several generations out of date. Frequently one finds places where key words and phrases have been left out . . . words like "not" . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com <Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI) > >Sorry if this thread is old hat now - I've been having a hard time keeping up >with the volume of traffic here recently. > >> Kits are often more costly than ready-built products because kit builders >> fix their mistakes, while you can't expect the user of ready-made stuff to >> fix your mistakes. Tech support is a necessity, yet most kit builders don't >> need it. Tech support is what costs when you're selling a ready-built >> product for the home computer market. > > >This is strange. You are saying: Tech support is what costs. Kits don't need >so much. Therefore kits are more expensive. ??? > >I claim the other way around. Most kit suppliers have to spend _more_ on >technical support because they have to help people who try kits too hard for >them and expect the supplier to sort out their mistakes. > >Kits generally have shorter production runs than complete units, hence less >quantity discount / economy of scale. > >Finally, kits are generally better documented than complete units sold as such. >And documentation costs a lot! > >Philip. > > > > >

26 years, 11 months

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ASR-33 Data Format?

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Having secured a copy of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC on paper tape (autographed by the man himself!), I'm in the process of adding a teletype simulator to the COSMAC Elf simulator. It's a bit strange because the 1802 code does bit-banged serial i/o, and my simulated teletype has to do bit-banged serial i/o back at it. At least initially, rather than hack all the 1802 code to run at a faster baud rate, I'm simulating 110 baud with my "teletype", so most of the time the emulated 1802 and the emulated teletype sit there waiting for each other to send data. It's _almost_ working, but I'm getting some odd results that I think may stem from an incomplete understanding of the way the ASR-33 and others of that vintage send and receive data. I'm testing with some code in an article about interfacing the Elf to a Teletype, so I'm pretty sure the Elf code is correct. I'm using 110 bits per second, no parity, 8 data bits, one low (logic 0) start bit, and one high (logic 1) stop bit. It seems to like the data low-order-bit first, but I have nothing that confirms that how it should work. I'm also working from the assumption that the data bits, the stop bit, and the start bit are all the same length. Also, I'm assuming that the "110 bits per second" includes the time for the stop and start bits, but I'm not sure of that either. It seems to be transferring characters; I get consistent hex values for each character I send to the Elf, but they seem to usually be either shifted left or right by one bit, or they have the high bit set when it shouldn't be. It feels like I've either added extra bits or am missing some in there somewhere. Can someone who knows this information for sure clear these things up for me? -Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.

26 years, 11 months

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Timonium Hamfest

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>I didn't see any of the Apple II stuff that Tom saw Probably because I bought them all. :-) >I did see 3 TRS-80s, all model 1, level 2, one with expansion box and 2 >floppy drives I missed those (probably would have purchased them, as I don't have much TRS-80 stuff). The only TRS-80's I saw were a $50 Model 100 and a $25 CoCo II. >Nothing else of interest... no TTYs, nothing S-100 (I rummaged through a number >of boxes of PC cards and assorted junk, just to be sure), absolutely >nothing Ohio Scientific. I saw a TI Silent 700, one of the portable models. I've _never_ found any S-100 or Ohio Scientific at any Hamfest around here. Tom Owad

26 years, 11 months

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Z-80 M1?

by arfonrg＠texas.net

I have never really understood the purpose of the M1 pin or cycle. Can anyone in simple terms explain it's purpose? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

26 years, 11 months

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bringing up an 8f...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Well I powered the PDP-8f tonight and guess what? The PS is toast. I'm not much surprized either. Anyhow this one has a hard short of the kind when power is turned off the room light dim. Next step is to pull it out of the case and inspect and meter it for where the short is. Anyone with a schematic? This one is the rear mounted style with the cover that says, do not operate with cover removed for more than 15 minutes. Don't need the whole prints but only some things verified. Is this a low voltage switcher? Or linear? Is there more that one secondary on the transformer? Both large fans are gone too. the small PS fan is not tested yet. but it's stiff so that ones gone too. fans I have plenty of. Did I mention it was a clean one? ;) Allison

26 years, 11 months

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sad tale

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

I was at my grad school yesterday, and visited the guy I did vaxcluster admin work for back in 1992-93. A sad experience, I'm afraid. Turns out my guess was wrong, the LN-O3s appear to be long gone, first of all. Second, they've migrated away from DEC equipment in general to a mix of NT and IBM AIX machines. The cluster I used to run, from the sound of things, has been reduced to only the server, the vax 4000/500, and it's off maintenance contract and scheduled to be pulled from service within a year. *sigh* Sic transit gloria Vaxen. A silver lining - if I keep after the guy, I'm thinking he might take me up on my offer to haul it all away for free. What I'd do with an 8350, 5 microvaxen and so on in addition to the 4000/500 (assuming they still have all the members of the cluster) I dunno, but if it comes up, I'll figure it out. :) -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 11 months

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Collectors list

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi, ---------- > From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Collectors list > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 1:09 PM > > On Wed, 31 Mar 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Because i feel so lonely here in Denver, i got the idea of collecting a > > list of the listmembers. I simply want to see, in what areas you can meet > > people an what they collecting. > I think that zip codes are only useful for mailing. I thought about the zip code because you could sort the list very easy. And in the sorted list, you could easy find out, if anybody is near you. But ok, we can do a list with: country/state/city name interests so it still can be sorted. thanks all for your attention ;-)) cheers, emanuel BTW, i don't like to see real email-addresses here, i get enough spam already :-((

26 years, 11 months

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bringing up an 8f...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> Anyone with a schematic? This one is the rear mounted style with the >> cover that says, do not operate with cover removed for more than 15 >> minutes. Don't need the whole prints but only some things verified. >At the risk of sounding like a complete and utter moron, why can't you >operate for more than 15 minutes with the cover removed? Because without the cover the airflow from the fans won't properly go over the components needing to be cooled. Remember, unlike PC-clone cases, where the fan on the back provides minimal cooling to the contents of the box, most non-PC-clones actually have fans to ventilate the guts. Tim.

26 years, 11 months

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8" floppy formatting

by lemay＠cs.umn.edu

I need to reformat a bunch of old 8" floppy disks for use on a Terak system with single sided single density shugart drives. Terak's cannot format floppies (well, actually I recall a program that could format, but it required special hardware and DSDD drives on the Terak, which I dont have). I will attempt to format the floppies on a Cromemco Z-2 system with DSDD drives. Assuming this even works, I'm wondering if I should buy a tape eraser and use it on the floppies before attempting to reformat them. I need the 'standard' SSSD format, which I think is 26 sectors, 128 bytes/sector. Any suggestions on the best way to proceed will be appreciated. I need to backup the old floppy disk software I have before time or accidents cause me to lose some of it forever. -Lawrence LeMay lemay(a)cs.umn.edu PS: I'm looking into obtaining permission to distribute the software and manuals and operating system that were developed here at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.

26 years, 11 months

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ASR-33 Data Format?

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Bzzzt! > > In asychronous communication, the rated speed of the channel in bits per > second *includes* the start, stop, and parity bits. > > The ASR-33 did transmit (and receive) 110 bits per second, even though > only 70 (not 80) were usable data. I think the figure is 80, not 70, for the usable data. (I won't get into the baud/bps argument). Ten whole characters. The ASR-33 doesn't do anything to the msb, except have an option to generate parity there in the _keyboard_. You can send ten 8-bit characters per second, 80 bits of data, to a TTY and all 80 bits will appear on the punch. You can read ten characters per second from the punch and all 80 bits will be sent down the line. It's only typing on the keyboard in which usefulness is restricted to 70 bits. Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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FS: Zilog ZDS 1/40 Devel. System

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Hey gang, still sorting out stuff I really cannot keep over here at the new house. This is an item I must part with: Complete ZDS 1/40 Development System with Z80A emulator pod. Dual 8" floppy drives. About 1977-'78 vintage. Runs RIO (the OS), BASIC and of course, a Z80 assembler/linker. Have software floppies and docs. Zenith Z-19 terminal is part of this system. I haven't used it for at least 12 years or so. System is in two sizeable desktop cases each 19" wide x approx. 17" deep x 10" high. The main unit weighs about 30 lbs (I'm guessing as I don't have the scales over at the old house where the syst. is still at), the dual 8" floppy drive unit is maybe 45 lbs and a separate batch of s/w and docs should be around 20 lbs or so. The Z-19 should be around 25 lbs I think. Packed away somewhere in a box in the new library upstairs is the s/w and docs. Gotta dig them out when I get a bit of time tomorrow I hope. I could then send a list to the interested parties. Also, I gotta dig out that Z-19 and check it out. You wouldn't believe how much work I've got yet to get that old house cleared out yet :( (I at least took time yesterday to discuss Megan's 11/34A as it's just as important for me and my own 34A's troubles plus I *really* needed a rest) Anybody want to offer anything for this plus shipping from zip 14701? Will be shipped in three or four cartons. Let me know. Thanks much. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

26 years, 11 months

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More strange finds

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Thanks for the info on the "Toaster", I'll fit a fuse into it and see if >I can fire it up, it looks fairly clean so it should be ok. I might go >back and see if the rest of the VSV11 is still around, there was a lot of >DEC gear hanging around, mainly terminals. Please pardon me if this is incredibly obvious, but I just wanted to point out that to use the VSV11, you need a qbus-11 in a backplane with sufficient Q/CD slots to handle it. A BA23 is not sufficient, nor is a BA123. You'll need a BA200 series or H9642 to make it work (or a BA11-N with the proper backplane -- H9275?) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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bringing up an 8f...

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Well I powered the PDP-8f tonight and guess what? The PS is toast. Sorry to hear it... >I'm not much surprized either. Anyhow this one has a hard short of the >kind when power is turned off the room light dim. Next step is to pull >it out of the case and inspect and meter it for where the short is. oo... room lights dim? ouch... >Anyone with a schematic? This one is the rear mounted style with the >cover that says, do not operate with cover removed for more than 15 >minutes. Don't need the whole prints but only some things verified. I have some print sets for the 8/e, 8/f, 8/m family... but they may be pdp-8/e specific. I'll check for you... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Decwriter II

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 31 March 1999 6:38 Subject: Re: Decwriter II >Do check which version board you have, they have totally different >layouts.... Print is very faint, but H7728D is what it looks like. >Actually, are you sure the output of that flip-flop is stuck (check it), >or could the problem be further on in the logic? I can look at where that >line goes if you need me to. I'll check that and get back to you. Thanks. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ #: 1970476 Phone: 61-8-8633-8834 Mobile: 61-411-623-978 Fax: 61-8-8633-0104

26 years, 11 months

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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I should have the prints for it (and for the VR14) somewhere. I fixed a >couple of VR14s a few years back - interesting things to work on. Watch >out for that EHT PSU can - it's a mains transformer + voltage doubler and >is quite capable of killing you. EHT PSU? You mean the VR14? Yep, I'll be avoiding that one until I absolutely have to touch it... >> Two other important cables to root around for in the box, which go >>between the M8266 and M7859, are two 10-conductor flat cables P/N >>70-11411-1D. When >Those aren't _essential_ unless you're like me. They enable the >'maintenance mode' of the frontpanel - single-step microcode, etc. Some >manuals recomend against leaving them in the machine (presumably to >prevent confusing lusers), but I've never had a problem. I guess I am like you... if the machine has some capability, I want it available to me... I'll have to look at it again to try to figure out what you're talking about as to where the cables go... >They're easy to make from 10 way IDC header sockets and ribbon cable, >though. That's good to know... >I believe you can put an MUD or SPC card in slot 5 if you don't have the >cache. I can't remember what happens if you don't have the FPU - either >slot 3 is also an SPC slot (I think that's the case) or you move >everything left one slot (Which I think is not the case). In the backplane I have, everything except for the first slot and the last slot is a MUD. (Confirmed by the decal on the inside of the chassis and by the printset). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I forgot to mention this, and it's important if indeed you do not have >the 11/34A assembly printset: the 20-conductor flat ribbon cable polarity >is swapped around when plugged into the prog. console panel. The pin >one/blue stripe side of the ribbon cable is *not* connected to the board >connector pin one. It's correct when plugged into the M7859. I'm assuming >cables are not now connected between the panel board and the box. If they >are still conn. then you'll see what I mean. (Why did DEC do this? Was it >because of a mistake which was not considered important to fix or was it >because of board artwork considerations to make mfg simpler/cheaper?? >Doesn't seem like something DEC would let by.) I hadn't noticed the swap... I thought the connector was keyed, so you can't put it in wrong... I don't know why DEC might have done this... BTW - it turns out I do have the 11/34a printset... >I'm much less of a guru than anybody as I've never had my hands on *real* >PDP-11 hdwr until last summer/fall. I'm actually in the learning mode but >have done enough fiddling and have about half the resources I need to be >sort of maybe a little knowledgeable. (Is that vague enough?? :) That'll >be proved when I start working with the list for help on getting my own >11/34A system running. Maybe my experiences, and the documentation of same, will help... (I hope we're not putting everyone else to sleep with it) >Let me know what tech mans and printsets you need. Then I'll see what I >can do to copy missing ones for you if indeed I have them. However, I >lack several myself or have apparently too-early versions so may not >completly fill-in your needs. As I mentioned, I have the 11/34a printset. I have not yet found the VT11 printset, nor have I found an LPS printset... Do you have these? (Does someone else have these?) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Swapmeet Strategies

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I think this is suitably on-topic for The List: I have been a swapmeet/junk store/surplus rat all my life. There are three or four swapmeets I attend regurlarly. Here in SoCal, the TRW hamfest is probably the best-known, but there are three or four others just as 'good'. At TRW, there are two distinct periods of activitiy which I have deemed the "Shark" phase (at the opening of the meet to Buyers) and the "Vulture" phase (at the end of the meet when the Junk gets Cheap) with a relative lull in the middle hours. BUT: A secret to getting a few 'scores', is to be around when the sellers are gathering/unloading/standing around in the dark waiting for the coffee truck to set up. If you can finagle your way into that area, early before the hordes of buyers arrive... in my experience that is where some of the best deals are made. At TRW, the sellers are 'staged' into a lage parking lot first, then allowed into their spaces a line at a time from the staging area. People start getting there about 5:30 or so, and the sellers move to their spaces at 7:00, then the meet opens at 7:30. In that staging area one can have first pick of a lot of the goodies.. Your Milage May Vary. Cheers John

26 years, 11 months

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Ohio Scientific (Yes again!)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 31/03/99 11:46:35 Eastern Standard Time, george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com writes: > Where did they all go? > > Does anybody have any idea where all the Ohio Scientific machines all > ended up? > > We have a few collectors on this list with a few machines but it sure > seems like more were made than our collections account for. > > I'm especially curious as to where all the C2-8p systems ended up. > > My inventory: > 1 C2-4p shell > 1 C2-4p Working > 1 C4p Bad RAM > > None of my systems had floppys with them... > > Anybody have any idea about Production numbers? I'd never even heard of an OSI machine until I picked up a C1P complete with marketing materials/schematics and bare circuit boards 3 years ago. Were they really that popular? I know someone at work that heard of them, but that's it.

26 years, 11 months

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Floor tiles

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 01:43:40PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Are European floor tiles for computer rooms 2 feet square, like those >> found in the U.S., or are they smaller? > > They are 60x60 cm. Yes, I think that's a common size. But the tiles in the office where I am sitting right now are 50x50cm. I also think that the structural tiles (don't know what they are really called) used for raised floors in computer rooms are also often 50cm square. (Not 50cm^2, though!) Philip.

26 years, 11 months

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Moving sale - many old books, computer hardware & software, magazines, etc.

by tiger＠silcom.com

Hello everyone. I have a lot of old computer hardware, software, books, and magazines which I'd like to sell before I move long distance in about a month. Over the last few months I've posted on Usenet and tried eBay with only moderate success. With moving day approaching and too few sales lately to justify the time, I'm about to give up and donate the majority of these items to the local charities who are fortunately willing to take most of my stuff. This means that any sales need to be resolved within a couple weeks. As this is the classical computer list I hope some people here might have interest in this type of old computer stuff. The majority of it is from the 1980s. The computers I have the most stuff to the least stuff for sale are: - IBM compatible - Commodore 64/128 - Apple II series/IIGS - Amiga - Atari 8-bit - Macintosh - TI-99/4A Very briefly I have: - BOOKS - a couple hundred computer books, programming books, electronic data books, and technical books (a lot of reference books are for Apple and Amiga, such as the Addision-Wesley series). Also a few math and physics textbooks. - SOFTWARE MANUALS - a couple hundred manuals without the disks for things like Borland Turbo products, Microsoft C/C++, Visual Basic, DBase, Autocad, etc. - HARDWARE - Commodore 128 computers, disk drives, many printers for Commodore specific and IBM compatibles, old monitors, cassette units, etc. - SOFTWARE - a LOT of software for the first 4 computers in my list above. For IBM I have mostly old applications, for Commodore mostly games, and for Apple & Amiga mostly applications and development software (APW, Merlin, Manx C, etc). There's a misc handful for the other 3. - MAGAZINES - a variety of magazines, mostly for IBM and Apple. PC Tech Journal, Nibble, Video magazine, etc. I could be convinced to dump some ancient PC Magazines and Compute's for the right price, but I was planning to keep those (unless I'm floored by the movers' estimates this week). - LASERDISCS - a handful of older titles, mostly at $9 each. - GAME MANUALS - I have almost 50 computer game manuals without disks. I was asking $9 for all of them, but I'd just throw them in for someone who's buying a lot. Please look at my lists and feel free to ignore the prices and make reasonable offers. My main criteria are I have to get enough money to make the transaction worth the effort and the amount needs to be reasonably close to what I think my charitable deduction will be worth. If you can come by Santa Barbara, California, and pick up a lot of stuff in person we'll work out a really good deal. Please send email to tiger(a)silcom.com if you're interested in anything. All of my lists can be found at: http://www.silcom.com/~tiger Thank you for your time.

26 years, 11 months

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Western Digital PASCAL microengine / p-system.

by drbilling＠ucdavis.edu

Concerning p-machines: >At 08:19 AM 3/19/99 -0500, John Ott wrote: >> >>I am interested in learning more about p-machines. Does anyone have >>some references, faqs or web sites that would help? > >I have an aging UCSD Pascal history page at my online computer museum: ><http://www.threedee.com/jcm/>. I'd love to get a Microengine someday. > >- John I vaguely remember that the Western Digital p-machine microengine was based on the chipset that Western Digital made for DEC to build the LSI-11/2, just different microcode. Does anyone actually have some documentation for this board or board set? I have also been scanning all of the WEB sights that have information about UCSD PASCAL and obsolete and disappeared computers and I find no reference to Sage Computer Technology of Reno, NV. They made the Sage II/IV systems that came with UCSD PASCAL installed. They were M-68000 based systems and probably ran other operating systems too. Anybody remember them? -- Dean =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dean Billing Phone: 530-752-5956 UC Davis FAX: 530-752-6363 IT-CR EMAIL: drbilling(a)ucdavis.edu One Shields Way Davis, CA 95616

26 years, 11 months

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Z-80 M1?

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's the signal which tells the world that the Z-80 is starting a new instruction cycle and is currently fetching the opcode. It is also the cycle during which the refresh occurs. The Z-80 asserts IOREQ* and M1* concurrently in order to signal a vectored interrupt acknowledge is in progress and that the peripheral should drive its interrupt vector address onto the bus. Aside from this last functon, I've never seen any particular need for a processor to let me in on the fact its opcode fetch cycle was in progress. It is helpful, I guess, if you're hand-toggling a program into the processor as it executes them, though that's not how it's usually done. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 7:36 AM Subject: Z-80 M1? >I have never really understood the purpose of the M1 pin or cycle. Can >anyone in simple terms explain it's purpose? > >---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... >######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # >#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## >####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### >###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### >##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### ># ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) >---------------------------------------- >Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > >Slackware Mailing List: >http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

26 years, 11 months

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about...

by rlaven＠shore.intercom.net

I have several Connor 40 Mbyte hard drives. -rob-

26 years, 11 months

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NorthStar Dimension

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Remember a while back I mumbled something about finding some documentation for a NorthStar Dimension computer which I suspected was PC compatible? Well, I found a short review of it in the 1985-86 Edition of _The Peter McWilliams Personal Computer Buying Guide_. This is the book that has all those keen Victorian-style illustrations throughout the book. They turn up regularly at thrift stores and the like. The NorthStar Dimension is reviewed on page 78. 8088, 256K, MS-DOS, multi-user system. The system was modular. You would buy a CPU, and could hook up to 12 terminals(dubbed "work stations") to a single CPU. The "work stations" could apparently run MS-DOS apps. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 02/15/99]

26 years, 11 months

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followup

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, now that I've gotten to where, if I smoked, I'd go have a cigarette while waiting for a 450MHz processor do to something, I'm almost ready to wire up a 4.5" x 6" card with a Z80-H and a couple of hard disks of that generation and fire up CP/M just to see how slow it seems now. I haven't fiddled with one of these old timers in years. Years ago, I said that computers wouldn't be fast enough for me until everything I typed for it to do was done by the time my finger left the return key. Well, we're there now, and they're still a mite sluggish to me . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:47 PM Subject: Re: followup ><I guess it's fortunate there was only one DMA process going on at the time ><else it might have been real sticky figuring out what had been overwritten ><already.. If you were doing a read in order to do a write, using DMA, you ><might actually get tangled up. Fortunately that showed up while the vendo ><was debugging his code, so I didn't have to deal with that. > >Multiple DMA streams are doable too though hard to apply usefully. > ><That's quite so. Fortunately one wasn't required to load data at the ><granule size, but rather at the sector size, so you could get by with a rea ><of a 1K sector. Of course you had to read it before you could write it, s ><you had to wait for the next revolution of the disk. All this went by so ><fast, and, since I didn't run big databases requiring sorts to and from ><disk, I didn't perceive much delay, as it only takes a few revolutions to ><load up a program. So each drive had six logical drives on it. > >I have. Running a pair of drives and using ramdisk and my own smartdisk >system. That was the speed order as well, the smartdisk system was fasest >as it hard its own CPU and DMA channel to processor ram using hidden cycle >stealing plus caching to 4x physical track size. That and a 6MHz z80 and >dust flew. > ><This all sounds like it could be fun if, for example, you're running it al ><on classic and unmodified hardware. I'm not sure I'd want to try to earn m ><living that way, though. > >it's more fun on current hardware like 33mhz Z180s and it's still in use >in odd pockets here and there. I don't (never did) make a living off it. > >Allison >

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

That sort of thing was common. I never figured out why they didn't just load the code into RAM from the ROM, then make the ROM go away. Eventually, that was the method of choice. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI ><I said 'ROM' because on a number of machines, it was just a few TTL chips ><that gated C3, lobyte, hibyte onto the data bus on the first 3 fetches ><after reset. > >Most used a mux and jumpers to fake a 3byte rom with the first byte >hardwired as C3h (jmp in 8080/8085/z80) and it was jammed on the bus for >boot and only then. another approach was to on power up map rom to loc 000 >and also F800h and then disable the mapping after the code was running up >high. Plenty of tricks to fake that. > >Allison >

26 years, 11 months

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Museums

by mbg＠world.std.com

<> I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get <> SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to <> create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what yo <> can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among <> local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get >Therein lies the essence of getting going. Inspired comment. >Right now Megan and I seem to be the most voluminous collectors on the >eastern MA area and we are close to each other. To get something going >needs critical mass greater than two. Hmmm... does anyone remember 'progressive dinner parties'? You'd get a group of friends interested in dinner, and you'd go from one house where you'd have one part of the meal, to another where you would have the next part, and so on... What about something like that for viewing collections... It would have to be a limited number of people at any one time, obviously... I'd definitely have to clean up... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Rebirth of IMSAI

by edick＠idcomm.com

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI ><It was always somewhat of a nuissance dealing with the Z-80 because of the ><way it presented its interrupt acknowledge, which was a combined I/O and M ><cycle, as long as the I/O cycle, but with M1. That meant, in my case, tha > >All instuction fetch cycles were short, INTA cycle had an extry cycle added >for interrupt resolution in the supporting chips. > >To get around the short M1 cycles I'd use a tiny bit of logit to stutter >the clock to the chip (slip a cycle) for M1 only. This results it running >generally faster and still using slower memory. This would require a variable length or variable preset counter sourcing the clock. The problem was knowing when it was going the generate an M1 cycle in advance, since the instructions were, generally of different clock cycle counts. Either that or you'd have to look for the clock edge after the appearance of the M1 strobe and KNOW it wasn't part of the interrupt acknowledge. Neither was thrifty with logic, nor was it fun. I've done lots of clock fiddling with various processors, and I admit from the get-go, that the Z-80 was the least fun in this respect. It had so many timing requirements that, once you varied from the beaten path, you were going to use too many parts. Why would one want to replicate the bus timing state machine just to improve it a bit? The reason for using a Z-80 was that you could use CP/M for your development environment. I even had a scheme wherein I took my target system and connected its processor to my CPU socket via a cable or other arrangement, just so I could use CP/M. If it hadn't been for that one, I'd never have put a Z-80 in anything. 6801's had more features and required less hardware, and their clock was symmetrical so you could share memory if that was desirable. It's a real pain with the Z-80. That's true of the 8085 as well. I always preferred the 6502 and 68xx parts for useful work. Unfortunately they didn't have the support of really useful OS. (well, . . . maybe on the Apple, but I never got much use out of them until I put in a Z-80 card.) ><This same protocol made it unwise to try to use memory mapped I/O, since the ><cycle length of an I/O cycle differed from that of a memory cycle. > >I used to do it all the time and like I posted earlier the NS* disk system used MM-IO very effectively. > I had one friend whose NorthStar convinced me every time I saw it, that I didn't want one. We were using CP/M, and you really didn't have even one byte to spare in your measly 64K. His NorthStar only had 48K of memory space, for some reason. Maybe it was because they'd mapped that region for I/O. > >Allison >

26 years, 11 months

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More strange finds

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >Thanks for the info on the "Toaster", I'll fit a fuse into it and see if I >can fire it up, it looks fairly clean so it should be ok. I might go back >and see if the rest of the VSV11 is still around, there was a lot of DEC >gear hanging around, mainly terminals. > It is a 3 board set(sometimes 4 if it has the optional second memory). I am on the road right now so I don't have the # offhand but they have a ribbon (40 pin I think) between them. They are quad wide Qbus boards but are also used in Unibus machines with a Unibus to Qbus converter. If you think they might still have the rest of it I will look up the board # and backplane # when I get back. I have 1 I use routinely along with several for supporting customers. Be sure to get the Cab Kit and the Joystick. Dan

26 years, 11 months

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Computer busses....

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see imbedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, March 30, 1999 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Computer busses.... >> >>You've hit most of the important signals. One I'd add, however, is a data >> >>bus disable, and perhaps an address bus disable as well. This would allow >> a >> >>front panel or other bus mastering device to steal cycles under certain >> >>circumstances. >> > >> >Why wouldn't BUS REQUEST work? >> > >> It would only work if BUS REQUEST were not a request for negotiation. If >> you do have a bus negotiation handshake, then it might not work simply to >> asser BUS REQUEST because you may want to "jam" data in to certain locations >> while the processor is doing most of the work. CPU places addresses on the >> bus, you, by means of your front panel, want to put different data there. >> You float his data bus, and drive it yourself while he creates the strobes >> in his normal timing. Likewise, you might want to redirect his data flow, >> hence you float his address bus, driving it yourself, while the CPU >> generates normally timed transaction control signals. It's an obscure point >> but I've seen it done for whatever reason on several occasions. > >I see what you're saying, but it's not that common to want to do that (if >the CPU doesn't have access to the main memory, it'll execute NOPs or >RST38's depending on how the bus is pulled, for example, which might not >be that useful). Admittedly the PERQ rasterop machine did something >similar (got the CPU to generate addresses and start memory cycles while >the rasterop hardware took over the data bus), but the microcode on that >machine was designed specificially to do that. The Z80 microcode isn't. If you then drive the bus, it will execute whatever you feed it, provided you do that during an instruction fetch cycle. >A front panel can certainly be made that takes over the entire bus and >generates address/data/control lines. > >> > >> >>What would you do with the HALT signal, and how would you implement it? >Remember on the Z80 (which is what I assume you're using based on the >signal names), Halt is an _output_ from the CPU to indicate that the CPU >has executed a halt instruction and is waiting for a reset/interrupt. > Of course! I'd forgotten that it raises that flag when it's halted. My steel-trap memory is gradually becoming a colander . . . <sigh> I don't believe I ever used that function on an S-100 . . . >-tony >

26 years, 11 months

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More strange finds

by karlm＠blitzen.canberra.edu.au

Thanks for the info on the "Toaster", I'll fit a fuse into it and see if I can fire it up, it looks fairly clean so it should be ok. I might go back and see if the rest of the VSV11 is still around, there was a lot of DEC gear hanging around, mainly terminals. Another odd device I picked up this week is a "Sharp Portable Computer PC-2500", with a plotter-printer, it fires up, and gives me a menu of options for "Business Software", "Telephone Book" and "Basic", it has a 16k Ram card and what appears to be a serial port with an odd connector. I have searched high and low on the net for info on this but haven't been able to find much!! Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum(a)student.canberra.edu.au

26 years, 11 months

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bringing up an 8f...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Anyone with a schematic? This one is the rear mounted style with the <> cover that says, do not operate with cover removed for more than 15 <> minutes. Don't need the whole prints but only some things verified. <At the risk of sounding like a complete and utter moron, why can't you <operate for more than 15 minutes with the cover removed? Because the power supply would overheat and there is a thermal switch to shut it down. Allison

26 years, 11 months

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id this Xerox

by g＠kurico.com

Ran across a Xerox today but couldn't find any identifying labels. It's a desk side sized (1' wide x 2' high x 3' deep), has a single 8" floppy above a control panel with a bottom hinged door. On the back, the connectors are on a separate little platform type thingy, on one side it has a printer, transceiver, and a db25 labeled LEUP. On the other side it had a db25 labeled display, a keyboard, and a "rigid disk" connector (and a plug that looks like it powers the drive). Anyone know what this beast is? TIA George

26 years, 11 months

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Timonium Hamfest

by mbg＠world.std.com

>6 IBM PC Convertibles. Last summer I purchased about a dozen IBM PC >Convertible AC adapters at a hamfest for $1, knowing that some day I'd >come across a pile of Convertibles at a Hamfest, lacking power supplies. >Well wouldn't you know there was a stack of Convertibles at the Timonium >show - and not one of them had an AC adapter. If anybody's interested in >one of these, figure about $25. If any of them have a back-lit display, I'm interested. (Even if not, I'm interested, contact me off-list). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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Help: root password for System V/i860

by ss＠allegro.com

Re: > >I just picked up an i860 box, which has System V on it ... and I don't > >know the root password. If I interrupt the boot cycle at the start, I'm still trying to figure this one out. "boot" and "boot -s" and "boot -fubar" all get me to: mboot enter name of the kernel to boot: (i.e., "boot" doesn't appear to have any parameters, or else it's doing a darn bad job of parsing the input ... computers should *always* complain about unused/extra input from a human on a command line :) So, in the "boot" dialog, if I hit <return>, it boots to "unix" (and requires a regular login, which I can't do) If I enter "unix -s", or "unix s" or "-s unix" or "unix -ss" or "fubar" , it says: Boot: Cannot load XXX: file not opened where "XXX" is whatever text I entered (e.g., "unix -ss" or "fubar") If I can't get past this, I'll try mounting the hard drive on a Unix machine somewhere, to see if I can find/edit /etc/passwd. Stan

26 years, 11 months

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PDP-11/34A rebuild project Was: Re: Post-move diary

by mbg＠world.std.com

>That sounds like the cache+FPU connector, and it's used like you said. >There's a second connector with a different number of pins (I forget the >details) that you _also_ need. It links the FPU to one of the CPU boards. >So in the end there are 2 top connectors on the FPU and one of them also >goes to the cache. Then I've found them both... unfortunately the boards don't work. One has one of the red FS toe-tags on it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 11 months

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