- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Jim Willing: > I've added a fairly complete Tektronix 4054 graphics computer system to the > collection. Along with it came a hard copy unit, external tape drive, a > rather large flat bed plotter, and a full set of docs and tapes! You. Lucky. Beggar. (Green with envy) Philip. (sorry there's not much content in this message, but I had to get it off my chest. More and more 4050 series coming out of the woodwork! Keep up the good work!)

27 years, 1 month

1
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How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

><My first thought was something like a small compass near each bit. I want ><to avoid lights since I think they are less engaging, less an indicator ><that something has happened. Ideally this should be an attractive looking ><toy, that sparks curiousity. > > The ferrite would not show enough external field change to be a reliable > indicator. However when the wires were driven they indeed would! OK, how about it. Put a ring of compasses around the wire with needles strongly enough magnetised that they will stay pointing N-S around the ring regardless of the Earth's field. Can you then flip them with a current? A very good visual demonstration of how core works! Philip. BTW Siemens make some torroidal cores down to 1mm thick ferrite, slightly larger in other materials. RS Components stock some - http://rswww.com/ and go in through the catalogue: "Electronics", "Transformers/Inductors/Ferrites", "Ferrites", "Torroids" (sic). There are even data sheets but I didn't manage to download them.

27 years, 1 month

1
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PC question

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I <don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT <models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and <both have color monitors. One was a 5150 (xt) the other was a 5170 (also XT) If all fails look at the cpu: XT 8088 or 8086 AT 80286 or later Allison

27 years, 1 month

6
8
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Powerlines

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

I'm not sure whether this was satisfactorily cleared up. Anyway, the message was still on my list of Classiccmp mails to be answered when I finally caught up with reading them this pm. >> > Realy 234V (strange) and 180 degree ? Where do you know ? By definition ? >> > Just remember, if you tap between 2 phases of a 3~ signal you still get >> > a perfect sinus and you can't decide if it is a single phase or part of >> > a 3 phase signal. Ok, I'm always learning new things on this earth :9 >> > The numbers just saemed to fit well. >> I'm sure the power company has a legal obligation to keep the voltage >> within a certain range of values. Although, I don't know exactly what that >> range is. I think 117 is probably the optimal value for each of the legs >> giving 234 for the total. I've heard it referred to as 110, 115, 117, and >> 120. Since the actual voltage varies any of these could be correct. > > Anybody out there knowing the US regulations ? AFAIR somewhen in the > late 70s the acording definitions have been worldewide standardized > on 115V/200V and 230/400V - the intention was to allow manufacturers > (especialy the ones for power transmission systems) to develop more > efiecently and to lower building costs, since within the lower power > range (up to some MW) designs could be standardized on a simple level. >> Since it is a simple transformer, the phases are 180 degrees out of phase >> (by definition). That's assuming a balanced resistive load. Of course, that >> could change under a heavy inductive or capacitive load but, that's an >> extreme and won't normally present a problem. > > Still not an argument against 2 phases from an 3~ signal. 1. Voltage The voltage will be declared by the supply company to be some value +/- some tolerance. This will usually be according to a national standard. The transformer will usually have a higher voltage on its rating plate - if the nominal voltage is 115 or 117 volts, the transformer may be rated at 120V. People near the transformer will get 120V, people at the far end of the cable will get 110V. My house is very near the transformer so I get 248V on a nominal 230V supply (NB when it was nominally 240V I got 248V. Nobody has adjusted the transformer...) 2. Phase. As I understand it the usual practice in the US is take _either_ a phase and earth (neutral) _or_ two phases of the HV supply and feed a single phase transformer from this. The LV side of the transformer is (say) 240V with a centre tap. The centre tap is earthed and provides the neutral connection, the outer two taps are then both hot at 120V, 180 degrees apart. This is true _even if_ the primary (HV winding) is connected between two phases of the HV 3-phase system. In the UK the usual practice is to connect all 3 phases of the HV (almost invariably 11kV phase to phase) to a delta-star 3-phase transformer. The secondary, the star-connected winding provides 3 phases and neutral. Neutral is earthed at the transformer. Protective earth can be provided by _either_ a separate wire from the main earth at the transformer _or_ an earthing electrode at each customer's site _or_ the neutral is earthed at a large number of points on the system and the customer's protective earth is bonded to neutral at the point of entry of the supply. In all cases the customer sees 240V line to neutral; if he gets more than one line (hot) connection, they will be 120 degrees apart. In remote locations, only 2 phases of the 11kV system are taken to the site. Small loads get a single phase 11kV/250V transformer with one end of the LV earthed; larger loads get a single phase 11kV/500V transformer with a centre tap earthed. Some farm equipment (I am told - I have never seen this) is rated for 480V single phase. It is very unusual for a domestic installation to get more than one phase and neutral. But 3-phase can be done - the supply company don't mind putting it in if they think you'll buy a lot of electricity! Philip.

27 years, 1 month

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GEM GPL'd?

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Here is a site that claims Caldera just GPL'd GEM. http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/gemworld.html I've no idea of the validity of this statement, but apparently the guy running the site browbeat Caldera into releasing it. They've got a pretty good selection of GEM PC software, and it sounds like other stuff elsewhere on the site. If you're interested in such things. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 1 month

4
3
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It's Alive!!!

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 1 month

4
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The TI 34010

by dpeschel＠u.washington.edu

I've been reading back issues of Micro Cornucopia... They have a lot of glowing things to say about the TI 34010. Has anyone used one? They sound very powerful and they fit my ideas about what graphics hardware should do. my ideasx: easy programmability and flexible memory architecture are good. Comprehensive text routines are as important as graphics routines. If hardware is proprietary (like 3D cards for IBM clones) or nonstandard (like cheap VGA cards for IBM clones) or the OS can't deal with it, I don't really want to deal with it either. -- Derek

27 years, 1 month

21
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NEC APC III Boot Disk

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

There was a thread earlier about APC III's and I recall people asking for boot disks. I found a working machine today with a hard drive, and have made a teledisk image of a 360k boot disk that works if the machine has an SLE card fitted. It's MS Dos 2.11 . Email me for a copy. If there is no SLE card it would need the original OS on a quad density disk. The SLE card in this one wasn't labelled as such, just a card in an expansion slot with an 8086 chip and Eproms on it. Hans

27 years, 1 month

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Highgate's PDP-8 Web Page Updated!

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Gang: This evening I completed some long-overdue information updates on the highgate.comm.sfu.ca PDP-8 web page. 27 new pdp-8 related documents are now available. About two dozen more items will be added shortly. See http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 for details. The new items are flagged. Thanks as always to "scanmaster" David Gesswein for the content. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 1 month

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Good Weekend, bad weekend...

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Seems like someday you just can't buy a break... Good or bad, and sometimes they come in lots! The past two weekends have been both good and bad around the Computer Garage... The good: some major new additions to the collection The bad: my faithful Chevy Surburban that has provided transport for so much gear over the years has suffered a rather major mechanical failure... (sigh) Preferring to think to the good side tho... I've added a fairly complete Tektronix 4054 graphics computer system to the collection. Along with it came a hard copy unit, external tape drive, a rather large flat bed plotter, and a full set of docs and tapes! Now I've just got go get a large enough flat spot cleared out to light this critter up! (it supposedly all works!) And man, that is one LARGE (19 inch) storage tube!) Then just today I picked up a rather complete set of IBM F.E. manuals and docs for the early Unit Record / EAM machines! The docs are in fine shape for their age (received them from a 31 year IBM vet.) and appear to cover all of the early key punches, sorters, collators, tabulating machines, etc... Most cool! And to go with it, I just picked up an IBM model 82 sorter! (that was on Friday tho...) Also sorting thru the acqusitions from the Paxton auction last week... DEC TU-81+ tape drive, MINC-11, and RA-81 hard drive, a pair of HP 1000F (aka 2117F) CPUs (anyone got docs on these critters?), a Tektronix 4006-1 graphics terminal and model 230 digital unit, an HP 9000/20 (aka 9000/520) workstation, and other minor random goodies... I'd be having an even better time if I were not so bummed over the 'Sub... But, all in all, not a totally horrible weekend or two, eh? And hopefully, I'll get caught up with my photography of the collection as I finally broke down and picked up a digital camera, which has already made it's debut with the shots of the Paxton auction. If of course, I can stop running around picking up new equipment and crawling under vehicles having to fix things... B^} (ok... so maybe if I could just stop having to crawl under vehicles!) -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 1 month

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RARE: Original Macintosh found!!

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 04:57 PM 4/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K >>Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd > >If it says 128k, its not the first Macintosh, which was just labeled >Macintosh. The 128k marking didn't come out until later models were >released to differentiate it. > > My original post may have been misleading. It just says "Macintosh" on the back of the case. I'm assuming that it's a 128K Mac because: it has a 400K floppy drive, no hard drive port on the back, and all of the system software (Finder, MacWrite, MacPaint) is version 1.0, dated early in 1984. Also, all of the accompanying documentation seems to be from the original issue. There's a "limited time" subscription offer to a brand new magazine called MacWorld - think they'll still honour it? How can I check the memory capacity, to see if it's a 128K or a 512K Fat Mac? I'm not that familiar with Macs. Regards, Mark.

27 years, 1 month

4
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PC question

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

This all sounds like a lot of trouble. They all had labels on the front you know. The AT had "IBM Personal Computer AT", the XT similar with "XT". The only one that looks indistinct was the original PC which just said "IBM Personal Computer". Failing that they had labels on the back. The PC was model 5150, the XT model 5160 and the AT model 5170 as I recall. Hans Olminkhof -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, 26 April 1999 10:09 Subject: Re: PC question >If they are IBM boxes, then the shape will give that away. If the box has a >sloped front, then it's an XT. If the floppy is a full-height drive, it's >an XT, and if you look inside it will be really obvious, in that the XT >motherboard is confined to the area to the left (as you face the front of >the box) of the power supply. Most obvious of all, of course, is the fact >that the XT had no 16-bit slots in the motherboard. XT-types generally had >a floppy controller and a separate hard disk controller. The AT had a >single controller for both. > >Dick > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Date: Sunday, April 25, 1999 5:55 PM >Subject: PC question > > >> >>Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I >>don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT >>models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and >>both have color monitors. >> >>They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top >>of them. >> >>So, how do I tell... >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer >> >>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >>| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >>| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >>| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >>| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >>| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >>| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >

27 years, 1 month

1
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It's Alive!!!

by mbg＠world.std.com

>No, it's really wierd. I smelled smoke, at which point I started >worrying, and then realized the RL02 wasn't spun up, so I figured that >was it. Then I noticed the breaker on the back of the RL02 was tripped, >so I switched it back on, it started to spin up, and it tripped again. >Plugged it into the surge supressor, and it worked. I didn't notice any >load buzzing, but then with the way stuff is arranged at the moment for >testing, I probably wouldn't, unless it was REALLY loud. Just to let you know... when the RLs are powered on, there is about a 10 second or so period in which they sound like they might be buzzing... the motor is turning very slowly during that time. After it does this, you should hear a click as the buzzing stops and the cover interlock disengages. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 1 month

2
1
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PC question

by edick＠idcomm.com

If they are IBM boxes, then the shape will give that away. If the box has a sloped front, then it's an XT. If the floppy is a full-height drive, it's an XT, and if you look inside it will be really obvious, in that the XT motherboard is confined to the area to the left (as you face the front of the box) of the power supply. Most obvious of all, of course, is the fact that the XT had no 16-bit slots in the motherboard. XT-types generally had a floppy controller and a separate hard disk controller. The AT had a single controller for both. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, April 25, 1999 5:55 PM Subject: PC question > >Yesterday, at the KS10 move, I came away with two IBM PCs, but I >don't know enough about them to know if they are the AT or XT >models... they both have a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive, and >both have color monitors. > >They are both desktop boxes... the monitors were sitting on top >of them. > >So, how do I tell... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 1 month

1
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RARE: Original Macintosh found!!

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd like to know if anything's missing, other than the original packing box for the system unit itself. I'd like to have a complete set of Mac Ver. 1 materials. What I have is: -the original boxes for the mouse and keyboard, with stylized colour paintings of a mouse and keyboard on the boxes. -a plastic box with the word Macintosh at the upper left, and a stylized Apple at the lower right. It contains a Mac System Disk, a disk Guided Tour to the Mac, an audio cassette Guided Tour, a "Programmers Button" option, several Apple computer stickers, several Apple disk labels, a Macintosh manual, and power cord. -a MacWrite/MacPaint box, with a MacWrite/MacPaint disk, a disk Guided Tour to MacWrite/MacPaint, an audiotape Guided Tour, and a MacWrite manual. Should there be a separate MacPaint manual as well? Any help would be much appreciated. Mark.

27 years, 1 month

3
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The "FIRST PC"...

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

This not only makes it the first home computer, but the first kitchen computer as well! Didn't Honeywell try to market a kitchen computer in the late 70's or early 80's? I'm sure it would have taken off, if only they had been the first. :-) But, sadly, without internal video circuitry, it can't be a personal computer. <snort!> :-) Bill. On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> wrote: ] ... ] Speaking of which, wasn't the Zuse built on a kitchen table in the ] mid-30's? Wouldn't that make _it_ the first personal computer?

27 years, 1 month

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Wanted: PC-4 thermal printer

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

I got this note, seems this guy saw the Rescue Squad web page, but isn't generally interested in classic computers; he just wants one specific part. If you can help him out, kindly reply directly to him. Gracias, Bill. ] Name Steve King ] E-mail address sfjk1(a)usaf.net (delete 2 f's) ] State Florida ] Computers of interest Radio Shack TRS-80 Model PC-4 "Pocket Computer" ] Note I am looking for the thermal printer, ] in working order.

27 years, 1 month

1
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Pictures of my damaged core

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

Not to follow up my post with another post, but I found a typo (and I suspect some of you did, too) --- Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Here's some photos of that stack I got back in '82 with a partial PDP-8/L http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg - external view http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat1.jpg - one bad mat http://www.infinet.com/~erd/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coremat2.jpg - another one Sorry for the inconvenience. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

27 years, 1 month

1
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It's Alive!!!

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Oh, and don't worry, the VT420 is only for testing purposes, I've got >VT100's and a DECwriter II for the PDP-11/44 :^) Although the DECwriter >II will take some serious work before it's usable. I know what you mean... although the KS10s we got the other day had video terminals for the console, we also got a true LA36 in order to have that is a more traditional console for such an old beast... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 1 month

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I think what they don't realise is that computers at this point had <names, not numbers. 20 is probably quite close. I know there's a site <that catalogues them. I think at this point, the firts generation IBM 600' <hadn't been been built yet, although they have been in planning. I'd have to hunt on that too. I believe that the 1952(ish) was the year of the first production computer (univac, vacuum tubes). It was '58ish maybe later for the first production transistor machines. I'd extend that with some error the 60s would be the advent of the first volume production machines. (IE: hundreds of a kind). The watershed event was the forcasting of an election with a computer on TV. That would bring the idea of a computer from the labratory to something people could relate to. Radios went through the same curve though the peried of time was longer. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, Sellam, it's a question of statistics. The population was about 225 Million back then +/- some number, and the people in the US or even the world who had any notion of what a digital computer was was probably around a hundred, well, maybe a thousand. Now, you started out with an "average" American. Of the thousand or so to whom owning a computer didn't amount to slavery, how many do you think could afford to spend the equivalent of a half-year's groceries, during the period when the word "recession" was invented, on something the maximal function of which was strictly limited in purpose to some form of mental masturbation? They couldn't use the excuse that "we could use it to manage our checking account . . ." or some such, because it wouldn't do that. Do you think the average American could afford to spend that kind of dough on something he didn't need? Do you think he'd have spent the dough on something it probably would have benefitted him NOT to have? . . . like a digital computer toy? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 2:27 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 >> years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is >> more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital >> computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large > >What does having "no idea what a digital computer was in 1952" have to do >with being able to afford one? Can you make an argument and stick to it >please? > ><...> >> whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what >> the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though >> most didn't really even recognize the word. > >Ok, thanks for that history but it does nothing to further your argument, >nor does it have any relevance to your assertion. > >> In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also >> liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in >> the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted >> one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). > >Oh?? I thought $300 was hardly an amount one could afford to be spending >in the 50s! Seems like it wasn't that big of a deal after all. > >> Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR >> attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a >> discussion is the presentation of perceptions. > >No, I'm not so arrogant (or myopic). > >> One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on >> the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly > >I made no such claim. However, you pretty much DID make such a claim. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years, 1 month

2
1
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It's Alive!!!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 >rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Good! Why do you say you smoked the power distribution box? Is it buzzing loudly, by any chance? This is usually a sign of a bad capacitor in the relay/contactor power supply, and is easily repaired. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years, 1 month

2
1
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It's Alive!!!

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Wow!!! I think I just smoked the power distribution unit on the RL02 >rack, but I just booted RT-11 V4 on the PDP-11/44! It is Alive!!! Congrats on booting! Sorry the PS smoked... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 1 month

2
1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<(if available at 1/4th of a year salery) and I can't see any <difference to the situation in the 70s - the same group of electonic <fascinated people would have taken the chance. < <The effect is just that there was no such device. And ther ewas more importantly no concept of having/building one outside of university circles (how did they do it!). Allison

27 years, 1 month

3
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Building Core, Stage 2

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<1) I'm using copper clad board to provide a ground plane "under" the core. <After my last message it became obvious that this was the other half of th <winding "through" the core. Not required. Any whire with durrent passing through it has a field around it. That is all that is required. More turns only reduce the current required to attain a given field. <2) I'm using "magnet" wire (enameled copper wire) for the core wire. I'm <guessing it can take a couple of amps for a short period of time. I'm not <sure that is sufficent to "switch" the #2 nut I'm using but we'll see. The current can be quite high as those pulses will be short (microseconds). <3) Allison referenced a waveform that looked like this: Keep in mind that will switch the core in both directions. that was mostly a test signal for trying materials. <4) The diagram in the 8a manual shows the sense wires going through one se <of cores, looping and coming back through another set. The sense wire is <also used as the 'inhibit' wire when one wants to write a zero. This is <done by reversing the X or Y current so that the selected cores don't get <full write current (and thus don't switch.) Yep the two matic selects and the sense/inhibit wire. Some planes used four wires with the inhibit being seperate. <5) So this is the plan: < put three wires through the nut and wire them up as follows: < -- < 1/h select ----------\ | | /----- GND < 1/h select ---------------| |-------------- GND < sense + ----------/ | | \----- sense - For testing a "core" only two are needed. makes life simpler. < The scope will display the current on the select lines on channel 1 < the sense lines on channel 2 (floating ground) Good! <6) When the current is sufficient, I should see a pulse on the sense line. < (This is the hypothesis part, now to apply the scientific method) Actually even if the current is low there will be a pulse coincident with the drive pulse (transformer action). However when the core switches the waveform will not corospond to a 1:1 transformer and also it will be shifted in time. If the core is not suitable the signal may not be visible. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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Thinkpad 500 Power Supply

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

how bad do you need it? IBM still stocks it. www.direct.ibm.com/ In a message dated 4/25/99 7:22:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time, gene(a)ehrich.com writes: > Does anybody have one or know where I can get one? > > gene@ehrich > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s id AA20656; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:48:08 -0400

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<On other point: Do you have any idea how many computers there were in <1952? Or their cost? I do, do they? I think a number totaling under 20 would be about right. the volume of computers were about to increase around '52 but the next production step was the transistor machines. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. My last, albeit not "commercial" application was designed with a pair of 65C02's (just under 5MHz) and a pair of 8751's in '86. The 6502 and Z-80 made their appearance in '76, as I recall, though there may have been a few out in '75. The big 6502 rollout was in '76, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 11:32 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> While your comments are valid observations, I submit, however, that we're >> coming at this from two different viewpoints. I wish to address the >> question "Which processor is faster, 6502 or Z-80?" while you want a general >> comparison of processors. Unfortunately, answering one question doesn't >> address the other. > >The 6502 vs. Z80 is only a subplot in the all CPU question - so >if the measurement does fit the general question it also fits >the specific. In fact, if we go for the general thing, the rules >will be much more aprobiate then when we only focuse on two >examples. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

27 years, 1 month

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Building Core, Stage 2

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Ok, I'm getting to the point where I can _almost_ start taking pictures of the waveforms on the oscilloscope. Now, if you are wondering, this does have a point. I've got a 4K core stack for a PDP-8 that I've been loath to get into because I didn't feel I had a strong enough understanding of the basics in order to figure out just what the heck was wrong with it, once this project is complete and I understand core memory, theory and operation, I'll be ready to tackle fixing that stack. I've been reading and re-reading the theory section in the PDP-8a manual and some parts are starting to seep into my consciousness. This is where we are at. 1) I'm using copper clad board to provide a ground plane "under" the core. After my last message it became obvious that this was the other half of the winding "through" the core. 2) I'm using "magnet" wire (enameled copper wire) for the core wire. I'm guessing it can take a couple of amps for a short period of time. I'm not sure that is sufficent to "switch" the #2 nut I'm using but we'll see. 3) Allison referenced a waveform that looked like this: +--+ | | | | ----------+ +-------------+ +--------- Gnd | | | | +--+ Now in the ToO section in the manual it was written that the first pulse "reads" the core, and the second pulse "writes" the core. A light bulb went on because of course core is "destructively" read, and has to be rewritten. 4) The diagram in the 8a manual shows the sense wires going through one set of cores, looping and coming back through another set. The sense wire is also used as the 'inhibit' wire when one wants to write a zero. This is done by reversing the X or Y current so that the selected cores don't get full write current (and thus don't switch.) 5) So this is the plan: put three wires through the nut and wire them up as follows: -- 1/h select ----------\ | | /----- GND 1/h select ---------------| |-------------- GND sense + ----------/ | | \----- sense - The scope will display the current on the select lines on channel 1 the sense lines on channel 2 (floating ground) 6) When the current is sufficient, I should see a pulse on the sense line. (This is the hypothesis part, now to apply the scientific method) We'll see ... if there are obvious errors in the above please let me know! --Chuck --

27 years, 1 month

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Saving BIG OLD Iron...

by mbg＠world.std.com

The first part of the effort has been a success... we had about 8 people show up today to load the KS10 systems and their disks and tapes (and printers, and some terminals, and documentation and printsets) into two trucks... one going up to New Hampshire and one going down to Rhode Island. It turns out that we were unable to lock down the head carriages on the RP06 drives, and I know we're taking a little risk because of it, but we did not have the procedure available in the manuals we referred to. What little we did find led us to believe that there were parts required (removed at the time of installation) which the site no longer had... Anyway, it all got loaded. Tomorrow some of use will unload the truck which went to Rhode Island... One of the things I found out about the systems is that they were apparently the last set of decsystem-10s in active commercial in the new england region. One of the machines is an ADP onsite machine. It has a modified front panel which can apparently display the number of local and remote users, the %utilization of the machine, and two other displays which can be selected as to what they display. It is an LCD display which appears to have been cracked at some point, so it may take some work to make it work again. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ p.s. Anyone have any information on the ADP onsite modifications which might have been standard?

27 years, 1 month

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Chrislin Industries

by mbg＠world.std.com

>My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? If I found a >copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) how >about RT-11? Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? The RQDX3 is only the controller, it doesn't have any boot code on it. If your BDV has the boot code for an MSCP disk, then it should just work. If not, you'll need to get some... One point, the RQDX3 was not supported until V5.3 of RT-11. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 1 month

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Chrislin Industries

by edick＠idcomm.com

Have you visited www.chrislin.com ? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 6:30 PM Subject: Chrislin Industries >I've got disk box, 19" rack mount, that is labelled Chrislin Industries. >Inside is an SA612 hard disk labelled DL0: on the front, and two 8" >floppies (NEC floppies) labelled DY0: and DY1: on the left. (horizontal >mount). Inside the box is a PC board that takes a 50pin connector (labelled >"Controller") and has connectors labelled WINC0, WINC1, 5" FLOPPY, 8" >FLOPPY, and WINCHESTER. > >This is the zillion dollar question, it looks as if this box could be >plugged into an RQDX3 and emulate two RX02 and an RLxx. Or, it could plug >into some CI controller that did its own emulation. > >My "Microcomputers and Memory" handbooks lists on the back the following >boards for an 11/23 in a BA11-N >#0 KDF11-AA >#1 MSV11-DD >#2 MSV11-DD >#3 DLV11-J >#4 spare >#5 spare >#6 spare >#7 spare >#8 BDV11-AA > >My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? If I found a >copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) how about >RT-11? Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? > >--Chuck >

27 years, 1 month

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Chrislin Industries

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I've got disk box, 19" rack mount, that is labelled Chrislin Industries. >Inside is an SA612 hard disk labelled DL0: on the front, and two 8" >floppies (NEC floppies) labelled DY0: and DY1: on the left. (horizontal >mount). Inside the box is a PC board that takes a 50pin connector (labelled >"Controller") and has connectors labelled WINC0, WINC1, 5" FLOPPY, 8" >FLOPPY, and WINCHESTER. This is a box that works with a Chrislin Industries Q-bus controller. >This is the zillion dollar question, it looks as if this box could be >plugged into an RQDX3 and emulate two RX02 and an RLxx. Nope. > Or, it could plug >into some CI controller that did its own emulation. Yep, the Chrislin controller does RX02 emulation and RL02 emulation. Most also had a small bipolar boot ROM on it. >My "Microcomputers and Memory" handbooks lists on the back the following >boards for an 11/23 in a BA11-N >#0 KDF11-AA >#1 MSV11-DD >#2 MSV11-DD >#3 DLV11-J >#4 spare >#5 spare >#6 spare >#7 spare >#8 BDV11-AA > >My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? The RQDX3 will work, but it won't talk to your Chrislin industries box. There's a 50-pin to 34-and-20-pin breakout board you need to hook floppy drives and MFM drives to a RQDX3. In a BA23, the breakout board resided in between the card cage and the drive bays; in a BA123 there was a breakout board, with a Q-bus form factor, that plugged into the "dummy" Q-bus slots at the front of the backplane; in a BA11N-type box, the breakout usually resided in the Leprechaun box that holds the MFM or floppy drive. > If I found a >copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) Sure. You need the drive, of course... and installing RSX from floppy is just plain cruel (about as convenient as the Wagner Ring Cycle on 45's...) > how about >RT-11? Sure, again you need media and matching drive.... > Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? No. The official rules for when you need a terminator in a box and when you don't need one are in Micronote #29, "Q-bus Expansion Concepts", available from http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/microno… Keep in mind that you won't have a MSCP bootstrap in this system, meaning you'll have to use console ODT to put the MSCP bootstrap in for each cold boot you do. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

27 years, 1 month

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Chrislin Industries

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

I've got disk box, 19" rack mount, that is labelled Chrislin Industries. Inside is an SA612 hard disk labelled DL0: on the front, and two 8" floppies (NEC floppies) labelled DY0: and DY1: on the left. (horizontal mount). Inside the box is a PC board that takes a 50pin connector (labelled "Controller") and has connectors labelled WINC0, WINC1, 5" FLOPPY, 8" FLOPPY, and WINCHESTER. This is the zillion dollar question, it looks as if this box could be plugged into an RQDX3 and emulate two RX02 and an RLxx. Or, it could plug into some CI controller that did its own emulation. My "Microcomputers and Memory" handbooks lists on the back the following boards for an 11/23 in a BA11-N #0 KDF11-AA #1 MSV11-DD #2 MSV11-DD #3 DLV11-J #4 spare #5 spare #6 spare #7 spare #8 BDV11-AA My question is if I stuck the RQDX3 in slot 4 would it work? If I found a copy of RSX-11M could I boot it on this system (128KB of memory) how about RT-11? Do I need the BDV11 if I have the RQDX3 ? --Chuck

27 years, 1 month

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RARE: Original Macintosh found!!

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-24 19:02:39 EDT, you write: > Just kidding, but I am looking for some info. I found a good condition 128K > Mac at a sale today, with most of the original packaging and materials. I'd > like to know if anything's missing, other than the original packing box for > the system unit itself. I'd like to have a complete set of Mac Ver. 1 > materials. What I have is: sounds like you have everything and even more than what i got with my 128k system i bought. I didnt get a audiotape with mine. should be manuals for macwrite and macpaint though. Be on the lookout for dodgy video due to that infamous cold solder joint problem. My machine has it.

27 years, 1 month

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PDP-11/44 Power Supply Questions

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

OK, the good news is it didn't blow up when powered on, though did have a few worried minutes till I got smart and got out the console key, and turned it to a on possition :^) I just got done measuring the voltages and if I'm reading the manuals correctly the voltage levels are within limits. Flexprint Cable: +5.37V P1 Connector Pins Voltage Overvoltage Limit (according to BA11-A manual) 1-10 +5.05 +6.5 11-16 +11.92 +15.0 17,18 -11.91 -15.0 25,27 -14.97 -18.0 26,28 +15.11 +18.0 However the following pins seem reversed 23 GND SENSE 24 +5 SENSE I get nothing on the +5 SENSE, but I get +5.24V on the GND SENSE. What is up with that?!?!?! I'm possitive that I'm not the one that is reversed as I checked this several times. The voltages all are under the overvoltage limit, so I assume I'm OK on that note. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<console interface. In fact I don't know of a graphics card that was, thoug <on toward '82-83 there were a few with some of the more "capable" graphics <support chips like the NEC 7220 or that "BIG" Hitachi graphics chip, thoug <I never saw one except at a trade show. The 7220 was introduced early 1980 and volume ships were 5 months later. By 1983 it was well on it way to next generation. <Some of these were pretty demanding applications which quickly pointed up <the weakness in using 8-bit computers for multi-plane graphics. They also <pointed up the fact that decent high resolution color monitors cost about a <much as a house . . . well, not quite, but you get the idea. If you bough <one, you'd better keep the box, because you'd need a place to live when you <wife found out . . . We did a multibus baord with the first 7220s and we had a heck ofa time with the monitors as most really could not do the bandwidth and the .042 dot size didn't help! As to using a z80, it was awkward but doable though we designed with a 8086 in mind as we sourced that as well. By late 81 we were running a 4plane (1 megabit planes) graphics CPM86 with 512k of ram. The key was the system was cheap for the time considering it was multibus based. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were th

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< The ham radio or electronic hobbyist would have been more likely building <or adapting tube technology to solid state. Yes, they tended to be frontrunners but the various ARRL handbooks (I have many going back to '47) which tend to be a good indicater of the hot radio technology of the time. Aywho the transistor was far to expensive and to cranky to work with until the 60s. Some of the tranistors failings were they were poor at anything but audio and low RF and very expensive. I found it hard to find a good RF transistor until the mid-late 60s that weren't several bucks a peice. So there wes another little aspect of the technology that had to happen. devices that could do logical switching (tubes, transistors...) available in low enough prices and compact enough to consider. The first HOBBYIEST IC based frequency counters were not appearing until 1967 give or take 6 months. Now a frequency counter is a pretty trivial logical device but one that has immense value to radio folk. Again convergence of technology is one factor. Discussing the 50s is fairly pointless as even the portable transistor radio was a late 50s advent. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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Leaky nicad battery

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There <stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it <This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. Any mild acid works to neutralize the alkaline NICAd eletrolyte. I personally found lemon juice or vinegar effective and then washing the board well afterwards. Replace the battery! <guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. Yep! Allison

27 years, 1 month

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DEC

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have a manual for PrintDirecter put out by Digital Products Inc-"the sub <Company" of Watertown, Ma. Was this a division of DEC ? I know there were <several companies with Digital in their name. No connection to Digital Equipment Corp, Maynard MA. there were no subsidiaries. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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building core

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Ok, one step closer. The description of core in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor <users manual shows the wires going straight through the cores. Is this <correct? I'd expect the wire to make one or two turns around the core so <that the magnetic field it induced would be "inside" the torroid. Comments? So it's a fraction of a turn. There are reasons for not doing multiple turns. One being the size of the wire. another is adding turns increases the inductance of the "coil" and with literally hundreds of "coils" it would be very hard to get a good switching waveform. <What about driving voltages? I've got a +/- 36v @ 3amps supply here, the <PDP-8 uses its 15 volt supplies. I'm building a simply push-pull direct <coupled amp out of a couple of transistors to send the signal that Allison <drew. I'm using a Parallax BASIC Stamp to generate the waveforms (I could <use the HP but then it wouldn't be portable) It's current driven through the wire that is important. <Sense wire? Straight through the core or also with a wrap? Same as core plane. Actually for testing you could used a turn or two for the driving wire and the sense wire to make life easier(less drive, bigger signal) but for multiple cores you need to do the matrix as fractional turns. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s id AA20486; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:47:56 -0400

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Ummm... must beg to differ here. While the SOL uses the VDM-1 circuitry, <it is an integral part of the main board rather than an S-100 add-on, and <I do not recall any variant offered that would have been minus the video <system. Oops, confused the systems. PT sole a board set that gave a virtual SOL but at S100 board level. The VDM-1 I have still works nicely in the Netronics Explorer 8085. In that case the SOL had the video locked in, that makes the point I was driving toward move valid. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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Semi-ot/Semi-odd game requrest

by review＠RyansPC.ryanspc.com

Hi. I've been thinking about asking this for a while, but never got around to it. When I moved, some of the floppies that were in my possession seemingly disappeared/didn't get shipped. In any case, I don't have them anymore. Most of the data was just personal stuff and/or backups, but there were two things in particular that I've permanently lost (both origonals and backups were together, as I didn't think of them getting stolen, but instead infected/defective) were Sid Meier's Civilization I from Microprose, the origional PC edition, as well as the origional PC edition of Castles I from (IIRC) Interplay. I have all applicable documentaiton, as well as a liscense, but just not the software. Would anyone be willing to either make copies of the disks or to email a compressed (either zip or .tgz or .tar.gz would be preferable) copy of the disks? For floppies, I'd be willing to pay the cost of floppies and mailing to Wash., DC, USA, however, the Internet method would probably be better. Also, if anyone knows a used software store where I could get a copy, htat'd also work out. Please eMail me privately at tim(a)thereviewguide.com. Thanks a billion, Tim D. Hotze

27 years, 1 month

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PDP-11/44 Boot ROMS

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

I've identified that I've got boot ROMS for the following 751A9 RL01 765A9 TU58 757A9 TU16,45,77,TE16 767A9 <-What is this one, the manual doesn't list it. I assume that I can boot RL02's with the RL01 ROMS. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 1 month

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PDP-11/44 Boot ROMS

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I've identified that I've got boot ROMS for the following > >751A9 RL01 >765A9 TU58 >757A9 TU16,45,77,TE16 >767A9 <-What is this one, the manual doesn't list it. The 767A9 is the UDA50 (and other third-party-MSCP-emulating board) bootstrap. >I assume that I can boot RL02's with the RL01 ROMS. Yes. In case you're looking for a list of boot ROM's, see: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardwar… Tim.

27 years, 1 month

1
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Bringing up a old Powersupply

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

I'm getting ready to test the /44's Power Supply tomorrow. Finished the initial AC checks tonite, of verifying that the power distribution unit is working. However, I just remembered a thread that was on the list MONTHS ago about powering on Power Supplies that have been out of service for half of forever. I seem to recall something about slowly applying AC power to the powersupply. I've got access to a variable powersupply that will provide 0-140 VAC. Is this a good idea? If so, how slowly is a good idea? Also, in talking to a friend tonite he was suggesting I hook an O-Scope up to the PS to check for "ripple". Is this necessary? I've got a scope, but honestly do not have any idea how to use it, and haven't had time to learn. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 1 month

9
11
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PDP-11/44 Boot ROMS

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

>I've identified that I've got boot ROMS for the following > >751A9 RL01 >765A9 TU58 >757A9 TU16,45,77,TE16 >767A9 <-What is this one, the manual doesn't list it. The DU rom Add 23-E39-A9 to your manual also. MU ROM > >I assume that I can boot RL02's with the RL01 ROMS. Yes I may want to talk you out of a copy of the 765A9. I don't have that one. Dan

27 years, 1 month

1
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DEC

by edick＠idcomm.com

I don't really have an anti-DEC bias. They kept the industry moving forward (which served their interests if no one else's) at a time when the BIG guys didn't really want it to move form mainframes to distributed minis/micros. I did however, back in the days when this happened, have a bias against buying what we could make and sell at a profit, since I was the resident hardware/systems guru. Having come from a circuit design background as opposed to the usual "rack 'em and stack 'em" position assumed by defense/aerospace contractors, I wanted build something which inherently was suited to the task as opposed to buying a bunch of stuff that didn't and then filing, cutting, and gluing until it did. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 1:10 PM Subject: Re: DEC >> That's the name of the guy! Stan Olson . . . the fellows at that one pitch >> to which I was referring in my original post on this subject were touting >> Stan Olson as being so cagey that he kept the gov out of the company's books >> by selling his wares to the gov through integration contractors so that the >> folks at the gov could specify DEC without naming them, and the various >> competing contractors would always decode the RFP to mean DEC and so DEC >> would win every time. I thought it was clever, if true, but the genius's >> name was Stan Olson. > This is actually a very clever and inherently legal way to get around the risk that someone else's product might get introduced into a market you nearly own all for yourself. > >No. Stan Olson's Ken Olson's brother and one of the folks who >kept pushing the company into things like the VT78 and WPS word >processors. He left the company a while back. > Well . . . it COULD have been Ken Olson to whom reference was being made. > >I think you've got a serious anti DEC bias here. > >Someone's very misinformed here or (more likely) the sales guy's full of it. > Well, there were bunches of them swooping down on us . . . the project in question involved about 60 8800's and bunches and bunches of microVaxen with each one. It was many hundreds of the taxpayer's millions that were involved . . . > >Q: How do you tell a computer salesman is lying? >A: His lips move. > >Q: What's the difference between a computer salesman and a used car salesman? >A: The used car salesman KNOWS when he's lying. > >Bill

27 years, 1 month

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Leaky nicad battery

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There is stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it. This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. Can anyone recommend an effective method of cleaning off this stuff so that further corrosion does not occur? When it comes to repairing PCB traces, I guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. -- Mark

27 years, 1 month

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DEC

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's the name of the guy! Stan Olson . . . the fellows at that one pitch to which I was referring in my original post on this subject were touting Stan Olson as being so cagey that he kept the gov out of the company's books by selling his wares to the gov through integration contractors so that the folks at the gov could specify DEC without naming them, and the various competing contractors would always decode the RFP to mean DEC and so DEC would win every time. I thought it was clever, if true, but the genius's name was Stan Olson. I worked for a while at a major Government Agency which shall remain nameless . . . Every time I called one of my colleagues to leave a message, his lab partner would ask "are you from Digital?" I interpreted this as being digital, since we were digital systems group in the organization in question, and answered with a resounding YES, being new and underinformed as to the culture. One day at lunch the matter happened to come up and that's when I found out the message my colleague was receiving was causing him to call the DEC salesman. Too bad we haven't a way of pronouncing the case of a letter so people will understand. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 9:34 PM Subject: Re: DEC >> I have a manual for PrintDirecter put out by Digital Products Inc-"the sub-Lan >> Company" of Watertown, Ma. Was this a division of DEC ? I know there were >> several companies with Digital in their name. >> > >Digital was a bad name... too often used and too generic. >Too bad K.O. didn't allow the company to do business as DEC. >I believe Stan Olson was in favor of this at one time. > >Nah... the great story is people coming to the DEC facility in >Nashua to get their DIGITAL clocks and watches fixed. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.

27 years, 1 month

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building core

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Ok, one step closer. The description of core in the PDP-8/a miniprocessor users manual shows the wires going straight through the cores. Is this correct? I'd expect the wire to make one or two turns around the core so that the magnetic field it induced would be "inside" the torroid. Comments? What about driving voltages? I've got a +/- 36v @ 3amps supply here, the PDP-8 uses its 15 volt supplies. I'm building a simply push-pull direct coupled amp out of a couple of transistors to send the signal that Allison drew. I'm using a Parallax BASIC Stamp to generate the waveforms (I could use the HP but then it wouldn't be portable) Sense wire? Straight through the core or also with a wrap? --Chuck

27 years, 1 month

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Leaky nicad battery

by edick＠idcomm.com

First, desolder the battery. If there's so much residue on the PCB that you feel you need to brush it off, a toothbrush (if you have an old one, else use someone else's) will serve to clear away the glutch. Then, use the toothbrush to scrub the area where the battery was with alcohol. Then apply diswashing soap or some other liquid detergent, and scrub with that, then wash all traces of detergent off the board with hot tap water and remove the water any way you can, avoiding mechanical stress on the board. If you want the board to work properly, you'll have to make some provision for a battery to replace the leaky one. An external arrangement of some sort will serve nicely, but you'll probably have to reconfigure the jumper(s) governing where the battery voltage is to be obtained. External arrangements vary some, so it's up to your ingenuity to figure that out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark <mark_k(a)iname.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: Leaky nicad battery >Hi, > >I have an old PC which has a leaky nicad battery soldered to the PCB. There is >stuff coming out of the battery, which has corroded the PCB traces near it. >This is probably the reason why the machine doesn't work properly. > >Can anyone recommend an effective method of cleaning off this stuff so that >further corrosion does not occur? When it comes to repairing PCB traces, I >guess I'll just have to solder some wires in place. > > >-- Mark >

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I resemble that remark! First of all, my man, I'm not technically a senior citizen . . . yet . . . but I'm practicing. I've always been somewhat obnoxious, and you would know know, I imagine, about the propriety of any remark in this forum, since much of what you publish here would be inappropriate in any forum. I appreciate your choice of words, though. It seems you've got a real chip on your shoulder, Sellam, and I wonder why. If you look at the remark to which you refer in the context from which it was taken, you'd realize that it was quoted in the context that California tends to have an assortment of opinion which goes farther toward the extremes than many less collectively "enlightened" and, perhaps therefore, tolerant, regions of the planet. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 2:34 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but >> not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the >> loose nuts roll to California." > >Yeah, and there are plenty of derogatory remarks that can be directed at >senior citizens being obnoxious curmudgeons, but they're inappropriate for >this forum. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years, 1 month

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Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC")

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 12:51 AM 4/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? >> (never quite ready to give up!) B^} > >Yes, but mine is an old HP Optical Mark Reader and I've never played with >it yet so I don't know what's involved in running it or interfacing with >it. Is yours a ScanTron? Yep. I have a pair of ScanTrons. One is the stand alone quiz grading unit, and the other is the general purpose form (page) scanner. I've also got an HP or two... -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? The knee is around 75ish when the micro started to gain momentum the next knee is at 80-81 with a large number of user ready machine stepping up to the rail. '85 is the next in my mind where the market took a distinct shift and z80/6502 dominance took a noiceable down turn for the 80286/68k battle. There are more but during that time we would see vendors of quality system disappear from the noticable market shift. The in 80s one nearly killed MS (ok it scared them)! Allison

27 years, 1 month

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More new toys

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 02:17 PM 4/24/99 +1000, Karl Maftoum said something like: > >Latest finds: > >Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works >are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this >system? Well, for starters tell us what the module designations are (such as MVME122, MVME204-1, MVME400, etc., etc.). The crate may also be marked with something like MVME945 or ? I'm most familiar with Moto's products. What version OS-9? > >Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. > >Not bad for mornings drive :-) Wish I could simply drive around in the morning and pickup stuff like this :-) Good haul! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about all that was built-in. BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand monitor with it. I bought seven of these at one time, because they did something I didn't want to have to reinvent, but though the video monitor came with it, the Apple video is not the monitor, it's the refresh memory and the video control and timing logic to support it. Of course I've still got one with only a single drive, + multiple controllers each capable of either two or four drives, and a bunch of other cards, etc. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:01 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in video. > >The Apple ][ did not come with a built-in monitor; a monitor was not even >available from the manufacturer. > >The PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I mentioned earlier was shipped by DEC with the >VT8-E installed, and DEC provided a monitor. > >You are making distinctions even more arbitrary (IMHO) than most of the >"first PC" arguments. It seems like you are picking your criteria in order >to get an answer you've already selected.

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well Hans, there's this saying, a derogatory one directed at California, but not totally without foundation that "Whenever there's a tremor, all the loose nuts roll to California." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:42 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> > The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach <snip> >> > hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >> Whatever. > >Must be true, Now I'm able to run for California >(and I'll do it again for VCF3.0 :). > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, Sam, those were not necessarily MY attitudes. I, after all, was only 6 years old during most of 1952. However, I'd submit that my statement is more or less correct, inasmuch as most Americans had no idea what a digital computer was in 1952. My grandfather worked for one of New York's large banks back then, and HE was a computer. He spent his time at work with those VERY tall multiple-entry ledgers you see in the old-time movies, adding up the columns in his head and recording the sum in india ink just as people had done it a century before. That was about 50x as quick and generally as accurate as the at that time not so common mechanical calculators which some time later filled accounting departments throughout the world. Guys like my grandpa didn't cost as much as ENIAC, or BISMAC, or whatever was the model of the day, and they got the work done. That's what the average American thought of when you asked him about a computer, though most didn't really even recognize the word. In 1954-55 a friend of my parents bought an airplane for $300. He also liked those British sports cars, which traded, 2nd-hand for about $300 in the late '50's, though they were not that "reasonable" by the time I wanted one (goodness only knows why I wanted it). Back to the attitudes . . . I certainly hope that you don't purport YOUR attitudes to be typical. I know mine aren't. What brings balance to a discussion is the presentation of perceptions. Two people can sit in the same room observing the same event and, afterward, discuss their recollection as though they were in different places. In this case, you're presuming to know what was the case in an era you could only have experienced semantically, while I experienced it "really" though through the perceptions of a child. I had the exposure to some of the same semantic influences as you, however, and I was able to integrate that with my recollections of those days to put things together in my mind, just as you do when thinking back to the '70's. That doesn't make ME right and YOU wrong, but it doesn't make YOU right and ME wrong either. You see, the larger discussion isn't about YOU or ME. One other point . . . I don't know how you can claim to know about what's on the mind of an "average" American. People who, ten years ago, were rabidly interested in computers, whether in work or in play, were not considered "average" in any sense. I'd say that the only way to get a reasonable "feel" for what an "average" person thinks must come from somewhere outside your circle of associates and mine. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 11:29 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach <snip> >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. Time and >again you insist on applying your OWN personal values and opinions upon >the rest of the world when you make an assertion, and fail to realize >there are 6 billion people out there with ideas differing from your own. > >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. That was the year I came to this country. There was an election >> between Adlai E. Stevenson (Democrat) and Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican). >> It was BEFORE the first test of a hydrogen bomb. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. Just because YOU would not have chosen >to build one does not mean everyone else in the world would have made that >same choice. Everyone on the planet does not share your values, contrary >to your belief and opinion. > >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >1/10th of the average American's yearly salary is about $3,000 these days >(thereabouts) and I know plenty of people who would save up that amount to >buy a righteous computer with all the trimmings in our time. So $300 out >of a $3,600 yearly salary (or whatever) back then is not only possible but >very do-able. > >> People weren't crazy then as they are now . . . and all the loose nuts >> hadn't yet learned to run to California. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

27 years, 1 month

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Rabble Rousing (was: The "FIRST PC")

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 06:41 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote: >> >> > > A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) >> > >> > <more snipppp> >> > >> > Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. >> >> Dang! I knew I was forgetting something! >> >> 6) In order to be eligible, the unit must have entered production (or >> in the case of a construction article based unit, been published) prior to >> the introduction of the IBM "PC". (198?... dang, brain fade!) > >1981. August to be exact.... > >Anyway, hold your pants on! The rules for the exhibit are coming soon! Ok... I'll defer to "he that runs the thing"... B^} So, do you have a mark-sense reader? Or should I still plan to bring mine? (never quite ready to give up!) B^} -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t

by edick＠idcomm.com

What I do remember, and quite clearly, is that the job I held in summer of '61 there was a sign right next to the washroom saying that the federal minimum wage, of wich there was none in 1952, was 65 cents per hour. In the early '50's people were saving up their bucks for a TV set, because not everybody had one yet. That was much different four or five years later, but for the first couple of years of the Eisenhower administration, things were rather poor, due to the compounded post-war recession. We came to the US in February of '52, and my father had a job engraving plates for bank notes, at which he was considered VERY well paid at $1.25 per hour. He left that job, to everyone's surprise to take a job in Oklahoma City for $1.35 an hour. I don't know what my mother earned as a secretary. Since people were just catching on to TV, if there was a station within range, I doubt anyone really wanted a computer. As I wrote yesterday, when someone said computer, I thought they were talking about my grandfather who held that title at one of the big New York banks. I was just a kid, but still, if computers had caught on the way they did some five to eight years later, people would have known about it and the things might actually have interested someone. Without the games, I doubt more than a hundred were built for personal use or amazement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Walker <lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:48 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were t On 22 Apr 99 at 20:02, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I > do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique > computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people > would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In > the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with > less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were > people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, > and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per > 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. > > Dick > I think you're understating wages a bit in the early 50s . I remember getting $125 for a 55 hr week working as a construction laborer on a summer job in 52, and getting $1.75 an hour as a derrickman in the admittedly highpaying oil-patch in 53. On the other hand I worked as a jr. IBM operator in 55 starting at $35 a week. Office jobs unless you were in management were notoriously underpaid. I was paying $18 a week for rent. At this time the Can $ was equivalent or more than the US$ . I took out a loan from the credit union in order to buy a $125 trumpet. So otherwise your reference to the high price of "hobby " computers is valid. Of course the larger computers (data processors) could only be leased, not bought from companies like IBM and Univac, so even the concept of "owning" a computer would be somewhat ludicrous unless you were an academic with a liberal budget. ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c(a)xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C

27 years, 1 month

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PDP11 Info Posted

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

I just scanned the PDP11/23 and 11/34 pocket guides and posted them in GIF format at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1134 and ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/pdp1124 In ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/ you will also find the TD systems Viking user and technical manuals that I OCR'd but the OCR did not do a good job of keeping the tables lined up. There are a few GIF's of those important pages. There is a UDT and a QDT jpg of the boards also. These boards have been very commonly rebadged with other companies names on them. They are Qbuss and Unibuss SCSI disk / tape controllers. Mixed in are UC0* files (GIF's) that are the important pages from the Emulex UC07/08 Qbus SCSI manual to set them up also. Zane hopefully will sort them into their own directories and post the new directory info. Dan

27 years, 1 month

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More new toys

by karlm＠blitzen.canberra.edu.au

Latest finds: Picked up a nice Motorola MVME chassis + cards (68000), the system works are runs OS-9, still playing with it :-) Anyone got any info on this system? Also 2x Sun3/50's and monitors. Not bad for mornings drive :-) Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum(a)student.canberra.edu.au

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

You know, there must have been another company using the Digital name that put on those pitches my colleagues and I had to attend, which was not publicly traded, because that was part of the same spiel, i.e. "that's why we're not public . . ." I'm sure I didn't dream that, because my boss was usually present and I didn't really like what I was hearing. Is this possible? I don't believe a public corporation can have non-public subsidiaries. Can it? Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:07 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> > They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> > directly to the government because that required they let government >> > auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> > leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> > That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> > >> > >> > Dick >> >> >> This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >> And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. >> >> I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >> They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >> (behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >> service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >> contractor on projects. >> >> What are you basing this opinion on. >> >> Bill > >First DEC was a public corperation... if you know anthing that counters >your claim. > >Now so happens my other half was a manager of the corperate and government >billing unit. I KNOW what the discloseures were! If anything IBM had a >presence for a long time so the govenment was for the most part locked in. > >Offensive is the least I can say about that statement. > >Allison >(formerly Senior Engineer, CSSE Printing Systems (DEC MLO, PKO, LKG, DSG, >OGO) >

27 years, 1 month

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Vintage Computer Festival Announcement!

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Pack your bags! The third annual Vintage Computer Festival has been set for October 2nd and 3rd at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, California. More information to come shortly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

27 years, 1 month

11
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Fw: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Thought someone here might be interested... As usual, please contact the original poster... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: William Blair Wagner <blairw(a)triadnewton.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp.hardware,comp.sys.hp.hpux,comp.sys.hp.misc To: hpux-admin mailing-list <hpux-admin(a)dutchworks.nl> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Old HP 9000/300 for free - you want it? >Hi Gang, > >Listen, this is not a joke. I have a very old (1985) HP 9000/300 model 350 >workstation. Its a relick! Its likely useless for anyone other than ant antique >collector, but I thought I'd see if anyone wanted it or parts of it before I >throw it all in the trash. It has the following parts / features: > >Workstation Cabinet: HP 9000/300 model 330 (1985) >1) Mainboard has BNC Ethernet connection, 9-pin rs232 connection, RCA sound mono >connection, HP-HIL connection, and an HP-IB connection >2) HP98547A HiRes Color Bitmapped video board with 64 colors ,6 planes of >display memory, and the 3 R-G-B connectors >3) HP98628A Datacomm board (I think for an external modem or something) > >External Cabinet: HP 9153B >1) 20MB hard disc drive >2) 3.5" removable diskette >3) HP-IB interface > >Monitor: >HP 98785A 17" (made by Sony in 1989) R-G-B monitor (very nice!) > >Keyboard and Mouse included too. > >It has HP Basic loaded (that's the OS), not HP-UX. > >I'll give this to anyone who wants to come get it, or pay for shipping. Like I >said, I dont expect anyone to want this, but you never know! > >Please email me if your interested, I wont be checking the news groups for >replies. > > >-- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >: William Blair Wagner :"Education is not always knowing the answer, : >: CCI/Triad Company : ..but rather knowing where to look for it!" : >: blairw(a)triadnewton.com : >: UltimatePlus Software Engineer : >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

27 years, 1 month

1
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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm sure everyone recongnizes that fact. What's important is getting past that point, i.e. settling what the definition is going to be. In the case of the early video cards, for the S-100, they weren't generally used as the console interface. In fact I don't know of a graphics card that was, though on toward '82-83 there were a few with some of the more "capable" graphics support chips like the NEC 7220 or that "BIG" Hitachi graphics chip, though I never saw one except at a trade show. Some of these were pretty demanding applications which quickly pointed up the weakness in using 8-bit computers for multi-plane graphics. They also pointed up the fact that decent high resolution color monitors cost about as much as a house . . . well, not quite, but you get the idea. If you bought one, you'd better keep the box, because you'd need a place to live when your wife found out . . . In any case, the dual-console (text/graphics) model was the default. The personal computer definition, IMHO, doesn't require that there be a dedicated video circuit, but does require one be tolerant of it, at least at the low end, because a lot of fairly potent "video-toy" types were pretty weak-kneed computers, and thus were touted as being for home use. You might say these were definitely personal, but you might also call their characterization as computers into question. I think it's a little shallow to quibble over whether the video was built in or removable when the system wouldn't really do much without some sort of video interface to effect the console function. As I recall, there was a board by VIDEX (?) for the Apple-][ which allowed you to present an 80x24 console, but didn't support graphics. The normal Apple graphics could be shown, though, by means of a separate monitor attached to the normal video output. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >You do realise that this definition implies that the IBM PC is not a >'personal computer' :-). On all the 'classic' IBM PC-family machines, and >on a lot of clones, the video system was an _optional_ plug-in card. I >think there's even a way to configure machines without a video card if >you're clever... > >-tony >

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 for the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribly educational. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s > >> Just a couple of stray thoughts. While a person could possibly have >> purchased a $300 computer in the 50's, why would they? What could they >> have done with it? The answer is almost nothing. The only people who >> might have been interested would have been ham radio or electronics >> hobbysists, and they would very likely have built there own. I don't >> even believe there was a viable used market for low cost computers in >> the 50's, they would all have been enormous mainframes. > >Where is the difference to the 70s and 80s ? > > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. >H.Achternbusch

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

No, what's relevant isn't the technology and its state of maturity, but the comparison of the relative value of the numbers. Today, it's just assumed that if you buy an item for $300 and it subsequently breaks, you shrug your shoulders and throw it away. Back in the '50's, not many people were silly enough to do that. My comment about DEC is based on my observation that the only thing one could count on from DEC was that it would cost a lot. You seldom got technology less than an generation old, and they didn't provide systems integration services gratis as did nearly every other manufacturer, even Big Blue. As a consequence, these services were provided by the bloated aerospace and defense contracting industry. They (DEC) wouldn't sell directly to the government because that required they let government auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. There's nothing wrong with their products, but they were not tuned for nor were they suited for the personal computer market . . . not even the ones they claimed were. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> One aspect of this matter I'm already seeing ignored is the COST. That >> so-called FIRST personal computer which cost $300 in the early '50's, for >> example, cost quite a lot of money. In the '50's, it was unusual for anyone >> to earn $100 a week. A mid-priced Chevrolet cost less than $2000 and $10 a >> week was plenty for a week's groceries for a family of 4. > >That cost was estimated. The computer was only sold as a plan. The buyer >had to find the pieces to make it go and assemble it themselves. So its >conceivable this machine could have been built for free, providing one >could find all the pieces salvaged from old equipment. > >Regardless, it was still a computer that one could very easily have owned >in the 50s, which is more than you can say about a Univac or IBM 70x >series machine. > >> Not even DEC's so-called personal computers were competitive enough to >> interest an industry professional. The DEC mini's weren't even a good buy >> as they became obsolete. I doubt DEC equipment was EVER used where there >> wasn't a third party present who profited from its use. That doesn't mean >> they weren't appropriate and suitable for a wide range of uses, but it >> certainly doesn't characterize a personal computer. > >Huh? > >> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >> if you shop. > >These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 <machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part o <the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I <think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- <that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different fro Except that the SOL was sold with a VDM1 as part of the system unless you bought it bare deliberatly (like you could a PC). As to definition... the longest standing one most would agree on is PC was at one time not a brand or machine but, PERSONALLY OWNED and not owned by a business (or part of one). To that end I really dont care if it had video or not. The idea of personal ownership of a PC was something rooted in the late 50s or eraly 60s and gave rise to the LINC and otehr machines that could be built for believable prices(or at high cost of labor). it wasn't until IBM called their specific product "The Personal Computer" that things changed some. However Apple, TANDY, Northstar* and company had all done their bit to raise the rail and better define what the consumer wanted out of the box. The revolution was in it's evolution. Allison

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First "threshold" apps? (Was: "First PC" and other nonsense

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Without question, to me, my first PC was the IBM 1130. The whole system fi <in one room with plenty of space for storage, card reader, and line printe <and all associated supplies. I could sit at the system console and do <stuff, or just punch in my data on one of the keypunches, slip a program but was it remotely possible to either make your own or even purchase one? This is a loaded comment due to the way IBM marketed their machines. I may add that without the peripherals (all expensive in their own right) the machine was not as useable as some. Personal... not quite. It did add weight the idea that computers didn't need buildings built around them. It would be an afector. Allison

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That's actually quite true. The technology didn't yet exist in 1950-55 fo <the hobbyist to expand on the initial concept and extend it into something <potentially useful or even marginally so. It probably wasn't even terribl <educational. < <Dick Therein lies a critical point. At some point the _idea_ of having your own computer emerged as became as least acheievable. I'd say the catalyst was transistors and early ICs were the impactors in that transistion. Allison

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Wang Stuff is avail.

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Right. This morning I got an e-mail release from the company giving me title free and clear to the Wang VS 7110 system and urging me to get it the hell out of there, pronto. SO: is there any interest in this system, as previously described (yesterday) on the List? I will be happy to e-mail the details to you if you wish. I am probably not capable, emotionally, of actually scrapping the damn thing, as my motive in rescuing it is preservation... anybody out there want the system? There is no room whatsoever at my place to store it, save for outside in the elements, and it would deteriorate rather quickly, even if it is coming up on summer.. I can help with delivery within a reasonable radius of Southern California.... Anybody....? Cheerz John

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I suspect that few of the readers of this list remember the early '50's as I do. I wasn't trying to compare or contrast the prices of the antique computers which were under discussion, but rather point out that few people would put out a month's pay (gross) for a personal computer, even today. In the early '50's there were more people, including some professionals, with less than $300 after taxes (and they were MUCH lower then) than there were people earning more. There wasn't yet a minimum wage of $1.00 per hour, and, in fact, when I had a minimum wage job in '60, I earned <$5.00 per 8-hour day. Naturally a $300 computer wasn't on my list of things to buy. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:20 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >>> Just to put things into perspective, a week's groceries, these days, for a >>> family of four, cost about $150, a decent mid-priced car costs $15000, and a >>> farily well equipped and appropriately designated personal computer with a >>> 400MHz pentium, 8GB HDD, 64MB of RAM, OS installed, all the multimedia >>> features, plus a current-generation modem (V.90) costs $400 less the monitor >>> with monitors costing $139 for a 15" and $300 for a 20" type. These prices >>> are from Best-Buy's ad in last Sunday's paper. You can probably do better >>> if you shop. > >>These prices are also based on technology that has had 50 years to mature, >>and therefore the comparison is entirely invalid. > >"If the automobile had followed the same price-performance changes as >the computer industry in the past 50 years, a Rolls Royce would today cost >$4.95, get two million miles to the gallon, go 50000 MPH, and explode >once a day, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringley > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by gregorym＠cadvision.com

At 10:19 PM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> The previous comment should have made it obvious it was NOT within the reach >> of the "average" American. >Don't you mean YOUR attitudes, Richard? Get this through your thick >skull: YOU do NOT represent the mass thought process of humans. >> $300 was not an expenditure an "average" American would consider lightly in >> 1952. > >Sure, but the point is that it could CONCEIVABLY have been afforded by >anyone who wished to save their money for 6 months so they could collect >the parts together to build one. >I know if I were alive back then, and I had the same excitement for >computers that I do today, and an opportunity to build my own computer >came up for 1/10th of my yearly salary, I sure as hell would have saved >the money to build one. > >Whatever. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both Sellam and Richard have valid points, but neither of them are right, because they're arguing apples and oranges. Richard is arguing consumer acceptance as a criterion - what average Americans _did_ do - and the fact is that very few average Americans in the 50s spent $300 on personal computers. Sellam is arguing affordability and availability as a criterion - what an average American _could_ have done - and Doug's site shows that it was possible to buy a PC for an affordable price in the 50s. Reduce this argument to its extremes: in the extension of Richard's view, _no_ PC can be considered a personal computer until every average American buys one, which hasn't happened yet and probably never will; in the extension of Sellam's view, if I can show that Leonardo da Vinci scrawled down plans for a recognizable computer that cost less than 3 month's pay in commonly available materials in 1500, even if one was never built, that will be the first personal computer, because someone could have bought or built one. This argument can never be resolved, because to do so, you have to agree on whether actual purchasing (as opposed to the possibility of purchasing) is required, and if so, what degree of consumer acceptance is enough (do you have to sell 1 machine? 50? 5000? 250,000?). I don't think anyone can agree on this. And let's keep the personal gibes to a minimum, please (i.e. "Get it through your thick skull"). My 2 cents, Mark.

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1702 EPROM question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? Joe

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Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to agree that the argument is not pivotin around a single point. I've always thought of computers intended for home use as being personal computers. This doesn't mean that they can't be applied to non-home tasks, but if they're designed, packaged, and marketed for home use, they probably ought to be considered personal. The same can be true if they were designed to be used by a single individual, as opposed to several even if at different times. This doesn't mean that if it can be used by more than one individual it's not a personal computer. Likewise, if it's priced such that a normal, rational (not to imply that we users are either of these things) person could easily consider and justify owning one, it's probably a personal computer. Whether it had video-game-capable graphics is another issue. NOT EVERYONE WANTS HIS COMPUTER TO BE A HOT GAME MACHINE. That doesn't say that everyone who has a computer well suited for video games has a game machine, but it also doesn't say that every "game machine," be it Atari or Z-whatever, must be excluded from consideration as a personal computer. Frankly, I've completely lost track of why this was being discussed. I was, at one point indicating that what was listed at the "first" personal computer was really pretty expensive for "personal" consumption at the time at which it, or, rather, its plans were being marketed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >> The argument is getting out of control >OK >> because the arguers are trying to >> make the same point (to be a personal computer, a machine must have video >> capability as an integral part of its construction) using different >> definitions of "video capability". So I wanted to point out that the >> two definitions didn't match. >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >Excuse me? >Am I misunderstanding you? >Or are you saying that a machine that is sold without video is NOT a >"personal computer", even if a video card is sold separately? >And that if the DEALER installs the video card, that it is still a >"borderline case" for being a PC? > >By THAT reasoning, virtually NONE of the "PC Compatible" could be more >than "borderline"! It would mean that NONE of my 80x86 machines are PCs! >(I purchased the video cards separately, and installed them in all of >them, INCLUDING the 5150s.) > > >> Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, because >> everyone is free to use a different definition. The the argument >> degenerates into a "My definition is right!" argument. That's the reason I >> don't get involved. > >THAT part is inarguable. Unless a definition becomes externally impoised, >it will always remain subjective. >

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to agree with you on this one. The business community lent some measure of legitimacy to the "pre-IBM-PC" systems by putting them on the desktop to do "useful" work. They didn't care so much about "Space Invaders" or some other game. Without Visicalc and Wordstar, the micromputers of yesteryear would have been nothing more than video toys. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 10:57 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >> "standards of usability", and considers that the "unusable" predecessors >> "don't count" towards being "FIRST". For some it's PRICE; for some it's >> internal characteristics; but for MOST, it's the ability to run the >> software that that user thinks is significant. > >I'd say it's fair to differentiate those that had to be toggled to life or >some such but there were already many systems that were turnkey and ran >significant software without investing in an engineering degree. However >in the age of retro-revisionism and the advent of the dumbing down of the >populace I would then contend the machine that wipes ones fanny is still >wanting. While games are a real challenge and make their authors big >bucks Its relevence to a word processor or spread sheet (two killer apps) >is barely there. I would contend that the apple and cpm machine that >could run visicalc (Dbase, Multiplan and so on) are the real contenders >for the PC revolution. > >Somewhere in all this pony manure is the pony I always wanted. In the >mean time I keep digging.. ;) > > >Allison > >

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Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from > a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry > can't be easily changed or removed. And as long as we're taking arguments to their extremes, Apple ]['s *often* had their video circuitry changed and video signals replaced. That's what the 80-column (and other available video cards) did. Later ]['s have a header on the motherboard to make it easy to substitute aftermarket video. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >can't be easily changed or removed. >Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, I agree it's getting out of control, but back to the "integral video" question: doesn't this requirement make the IBM PC (5150) not a PC? (I'm about to break into Eric the Half-a-Bee here...) Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't forget that between 1952 and 1960, the price of a phone call, a coin-machine-vended soft drink, and lots of other common consumables doubled. The price of cars did more than that, and the country, having endured, and survived, the post-war(s) recession(s), was about to embark on what now is viewed as the biggest and fastest moving era of economic growth the world has ever seen. That took less than the 8 years between the end of the Korean war and the election of JFK. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Upon the date 12:21 PM 4/23/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >>You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that >>are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines >>had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives >>would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line >>was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having >>been wrung before being hung on the line. >> >>In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still >>shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. >> >>I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was >>going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday >>movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not >>accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I >>lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in >>Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem >>too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some >>people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common >>as well. >> >>Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 >>acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were >>probably well-off. >> >>When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. >>The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's >>highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in >>those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with >>"working folks" like my parents. >> >>What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than >>they had been seven or eight years before. >> >>If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different >>than it did in the early '50's. > >I was born in '53. I had the opportunity to see and perhaps experience the >social, economic and ethnic changes which happened though the 60's decade >and at least half of the 70's. What a change it was. > >I see where you are coming from Dick and lean more towards your view of the >matter. However, when I put the same feelings into the perspective of some >young whippersnapper like Sellam, then I see where he's coming from. > >Back in the early 60's, Dad had a job which paid about $4000 per year, Mom >did not work. With a mortgage, trying to pay for a ten-year-old car, >feeding me and my mother and him plus all the other incidental bills, we >had little spare money. Fried chicken or something simple like macaroni and >cheese were very common meals at supper because they were cheap. It was >Kentucky Fried Chicken only because my mother is from the Eastern hills of >KY, not from the Colonel's famous restaurant chain;) > >A $100 expenditure would be serious business if it was something which was >really needed. > >Allison's list of costs is accurate for me too except for the salaries and >our house cost $4300 on a half-acre in 1957 and there were only three in >our family. Sellam and others his generation in CA probably lived in a >region in which costs *and* corresponding salaries >were higher than what folks of my generation (Allison, Dick) grew up with. > >Things are weird even now. A decent three bedroom house with two car garage >on a decent lot in the city of Jamestown can be had for $45k to $60k. >However, groceries are avg. 10% higher than big city costs likely because >of lower competition and transportation costs to get them here. Other >cities like the NYC area, Boston area, Chicago area, LA area, Bay Area, >etc., etc., etc. have housing costs which are higher. Our European and >Australian colleagues may have the same experiences. > >It's all relative as can be seen by my one example above. Sellam, Dick, >myself and everybody else have different points of view as a result of our >"home" areas and our ages therefore our opinions will be formed accordingly. > >Let's wander back to an appropriate topic for this list:) What was it? >First PC? > > >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM >>Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >>the80s >> >> >>>> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for >>the >>>> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family >>of >>>> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >>>> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that >>time. >>>> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom >>house >>>> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >>>> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's >>important >>>> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. >>> >>>The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >>>US. >>> >>>On LI NY, 1960: >>> >>> My father made roughly 100$ take home. >>> My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. >>> My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) >>> Neither car was never than three years old. >>> A washer was 110$ >>> A dryer (electric) was 122$ >>> Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece >>> Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ >>> The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low >>> price of $120,000. >>> >>>By 1964 >>> >>> a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used >>> tubes. >>> >>>In 1971 >>> >>> A new chevy pickup was 2700$ >>> A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) >>> A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. >>> >>>in short use real numbers. >>> >>>Allison >>> > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

See embedded comments below, plz. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 12:22 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Now, now. > >Without a lot of loose nuts, silicon valley and the "personal computer >revolution" might not have come off. That's actually true, I believe, although the now-past concentration of "intelligencia" in CA was the product of wise investment in educational institutions on California's part. With the economic successes bred by the liberal policies toward education and human services, California became a magnet for not only free-thinkers, but free-loaders as well. Now they're well into a backlash, e.g. Prop 13, Prop 187, etc. which seem to have passed. The liberal forces are still strong though. They talked about Jerry Brown as "Governor Moonbeam" but he was just a reflection of what the people had indicated a few years earlier that they wanted. A truly constructive dialog has to begin with the diametrically opposed extremes, doesn't it? >"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; >the unreasonable one persists in trying to >adapt the world to himself. >Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." > - George bernard Shaw > > >Just wait. After the big one, and everything east of the San Andreas >sinks into the Atlantic, . . . >

27 years, 1 month

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H214 board for pdp-8x?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Can any pdp8'ers out there tell me if an H214 core board works in an 8E ? I thought the 8E used H212, but I'm not sure Thanks! Jay West

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales >> team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one >> of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to >> support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the >> government market in the terms I used. > > >Considering I worked at DEC in 81-86 and we sold DIRECT to Fort Monmouth >I think that statement was misleading. I was not trying to mislead anyone, but, rather, to pass along what my colleagues and I were told at a pitch put on for us by the DEC sales force. We were engaged in a militarization of a uVAX-II by repackaging it in our own enclosure, with our own backplane/cardcage, and using EMULEX controllers and a truly high-res display subsystem separate from the console. Our task was integration-intensive. We had to buy a company in CA in order to ensure they would be around long enough to produce our ultra-high-res display boards, though I would have preferred to build it ourselves. That notion was incompatible with the premise on which the contract was based (COTS equipment, repackged to meet TEMPEST, among other standards. Do you suppose DEC had a separate company for handling this type of contract? That would explain the party-line that was laid out before us. We bought their Q-bus boards but provided our own <virtually everything else>. It seemed reasonable enough that they would take the position they took with government/military business. >DEC sold stuff via OEM's who often did system integration with NON-DEC >hardware and software and packaged systems with specialized requirements. >I remember a Martin Marietta special 11/70 in tempest cabinets with special >requirements -- but that was not common. > >A large number of the DEC stuff was sold through government contractors >because they could get machines under blanket agreements without >some of the government procurement restrictions and approvals. That was probably the case with our particular contract. I wasn't involved in the procurement, which made it a curious thing that I was sent to all these pitches. This was a "cost-plus" contract, so naturally it benefitted everyone when we could make the cost go up. Subsequent fixed-price arrangements had me begging our top managers to let me redesign the whole computer/cardcage/backplane using the microVax chipset by then (9/86 or so) available for use in BI-bus interfaces, on a VME card. I believed I could cram all the required hardware onto a dual-height VME card (about the size of a full Q-bus card) so we didn't have to deal with so many vendors, and then allowing us to use more readily available hi-res graphics hardware. The situation was so politically charged, I was called on the carpet by the VP in charge of that contract, and, I believe, nearly fired. If I hadn't been so fortunate as to have a long string of technical predictions (contradicting what the JPL guys had said) which were substantiated, I probably would have gone packing that day. >DEC got sued (and settled with the govt) because of the following issue: > >GSA got higher pricing from DEC than Ma Bell on their Vax orders. Were they buying through the same agent? >GSA also required installation, insurance, and warranty differences >in their negotiations for government pricing... I know -- I was dedicated >as an installation specialist in 81 when both Bell Labs and Fort Monmouth >were buying large amounts of Vax and DEC stuff. > >The GSA claimed the DEC prices for AT&T were lower than GSA prices >which is not allowed. DEC claimed they weren't for the same configuration >and services (which was true). >Ma Bell paid for insurance as a line item and either installed the machines >themselves and self insured or did away with insurance. > >(The govt didn't accept FOB coverage -- you sue the trucking company >for damages. DEC had to process any warranty and go against the delivery >company. You should see what an 11/780 looks like after it's been dropped >off a loading dock. Card cages were smashed. H7000 power supplies where >the card cages were. Doors bent in half. That machine was repaired >and was still running 4 or 5 years ago.) > >DEC settled rather than fight the government in court on this one. This is one of those cases where you settle because you don't think you can find a judge smart enough to understand the issues. >Bill

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having been wrung before being hung on the line. In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common as well. Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were probably well-off. When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with "working folks" like my parents. What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than they had been seven or eight years before. If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different than it did in the early '50's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the >> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of >> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. >> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house >> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >US. > >On LI NY, 1960: > > My father made roughly 100$ take home. > My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. > My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) > Neither car was never than three years old. > A washer was 110$ > A dryer (electric) was 122$ > Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece > Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ > The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low > price of $120,000. > >By 1964 > > a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used > tubes. > >In 1971 > > A new chevy pickup was 2700$ > A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) > A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. > >in short use real numbers. > >Allison >

27 years, 1 month

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Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

Excellent suggestion! After you finish, try applying a coat of "Armor-All." Though that's another automotive product, it puts a coat of wax on the case so other forms of grime can be wiped off, and it gives the case a "new" feel. That all-too-common stain and stink from tobacco smoke, by the way, comes out easily with "409" cleanser. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)lafleur.wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >I use CitriSolv, a fairly common citrus-based solvent. It's not so nasty >to your skin or lungs, and treats most hard plastics and painted surfaces >gentle enough. It's the only thing that takes the Thrift Stores' sharpie >graffitti off of this stuff... > >Hope that helps, > >Aaron > >

27 years, 1 month

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Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

A really fine-grit scouring powder like "Bon-Ami" might be what Hans wants to recommend. Those really tough plastic scouring sponges would be appropriate in most cases. You've got to be sure you don't scratch the surface, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >> I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >> I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >> is some markings on the systems. > >> Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >> painted surface underneath) >> - Spray paint (numbers) >> - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Depending on the Modell - if it's one of the SK/LP/HP CBMs, >I recomend a ... ups, now I got problems since I don't know >exact american namings and brands - I would recomend ATA >(thats a brandname, but also used generic for most brands >of not aggressive Scheuerpulver (scpuring agent (?)) with >an aprobiate hard sponge (non metall), since the 'rough' >surface accepts microscratches, and the coulour used is >thick enough to allow this procedure - don't use any kind >of sandpaper. > >For Metall case PET/CBMs with the rough surface the same >method might be usefull, but you have to prpare the Scheuer- >pulver with water in a seperate place, to avoide the first, >hard contact - also add some sadditional soup and use a soft >sponge with less pessure - you might need to polish it later >on with polish materials for cars. > >For the smooth surface (early) models, I recomend only soap >and a sponge - and a real lot of rubbing. Also some helpers >as used for car paint refurbishing are usefull. > >All this will only work to remove non aggressive markers. >If the markers have interacted deeply with the paint, and >or if spray paint is used, you have to do an repaint job. >take a medium to fine Schmirgelpapier and remove the unwanted >paint, until is is completly gone - try to take of material >all over at the same rate. if done well it might be enough >original paint still on the surface that you only need to >add a new gloss-paint layer - if not, considere to unpaint >whole case and give it to a car painting company for the >job to do it (including new paint of course. > >The main problem is that you have to prepare all parts the >same way, since it would look terrible if only one side of >the pet is 'redone' > >Gruss >H. >(There has been an Idea of a workshop on Computer cleaning >vor VCF 3.0 - Sallam ?) > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

27 years, 1 month

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Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases

by edick＠idcomm.com

Try benzene (mine came from an art-supply house under the trade name "BESTINE" which is used for removing tape residue.) This may not work on all paints and markers, but it surely does a nice job on the tape and other adhesives used to attach property tags and the like. I've removed some "magic-marker" from plastic cases, but marker and paing sometimes interact with the plastic, in which case you may have a more serious problem. It's just cosmetic, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chandra Bajpai <cbajpai(a)mediaone.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 7:05 AM Subject: Removing paint & magic marker graffiti from computer cases > >I've got a couple of Commodore PETs that need to be cleaned up. >I'd like to restore them to like new condition...the only problem >is some markings on the systems. > >Any ideas on how to remove from the metal case (with damaging the >painted surface underneath) > - Spray paint (numbers) > - Permanent magic marker (more numbers) > >Thanks, >Chandra > >

27 years, 1 month

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VAXBar

by bruce.a.lane＠boeing.com

Ok... this one has to be seen to be believed, and that's all I'm going to say about it. ;-) http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees. Bruce Lane, Alpha Geek and Laptop Fixer, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, Operations, Kent Space Center West, 18-04.2 / G1 -- M/S 8K-45 (253) 773-8576laneb(a)bcstec.ca.boeing.com "...One harried engineering tech masquerading as a computer support guy..."

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the government market in the terms I used. This was VERY consistent with the way other things appeared at that time. When I worked in other government-related environments, I also noted that, while Digital provided field service, they were not the vendor who provided the original hardware. I was persuaded by this and numerous other statements which had been made to the same effect, by others who worked with the DEC line. I always thought of this as a clever arrangement to ensure that the government got the pitch from their contractors as well as from DEC, and to ensure a sound common basis for DEC to interact with the various contractors with no risk to their business. Because DEC didn't provide the services that these contractors provided, they could be assured of lots of business with the gov because when a job went out for bids, nobody would base their bid on Honeywell or IBM because they provided services at no charge which DEC didn't, and therefore, although perhaps half a dozen entities would bid on a given job, they all would propose DEC equipment. This was at least in part because the same entities who would submit proposals also had people on the inside who wrote the specifications. This worked well for the gov as well as for their contractors. It also worked well for DEC. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:35 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> They (DEC) wouldn't sell >> directly to the government because that required they let government >> auditors look at their books. There was too much risk that the word would >> leak out that their profit margins on their mini's were pretty generous. >> That would have led to competition, which they really never enjoyed. >> >> >> Dick > > >This is unadulterated #@$&*() bull. >And revisionist history with an agenda sucks. > >I take serious offence to this. DEC sold directly to the government. >They (the gov't) was their second largest customer when I was there >(behind the good old AT&T Ma Bell folks). I was a dedicated Field >service type at Fort Monmouth. I also did time as a government >contractor on projects. > >What are you basing this opinion on. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.

27 years, 1 month

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(Fwd) Model 6000 Help Needed

by dlw＠trailingedge.com

I know there are some people here who have Model 16/6000s on the list. Can any of you help this guy out? You can email him directly. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Caleb Rawstron <CalebR(a)scfa.dst.ca.us> I am looking for Model 6000 equipment to get my ailing system up and running again. I need a complete 35 meg, MFM hard drive with power supply and data board. If you have one or know anyone who does I would really be interested in talking turkey or trade for other equipment. Desperate in California, Caleb A. Rawstron crawstrn(a)astreet.com or crawstrn(a)hotmail.com ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

27 years, 1 month

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Collecting Computers: A Guide - the book.

by kstumpf＠unusual.on.ca

Thank you. The first printing of A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique is just about sold out. There is at least one copy of the book in every country of Europe, plus copies all over Austrialia, Canada, and the U.S. of A. A few copies are still available through the Vintage Computer Festival - visit the VCF web site and support Sellam's work. You know that both the computer and antique industries highly recommended the book and many collectors took the time to provide feedback such as "I now know more about myself through your book." Collecting computers is good fun and perhaps a good thing to do. Up the old computer! By the way, will someone please tell me what a pentium is? Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 .

27 years, 1 month

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The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, you're right, but the "video" is the stuff that comes out of the RS170A-compatible, and if you mean the "A" standard, then VERY roughly, indeed. It was more common to see the Apple-][ with a non-Apple monitor for a number of reasons. First, it's likely the monitor was an Apple afterthought. Second, what I remember seeing most was a small (often a Sanyo 9") monitor sitting atop the Apple computer, next to two floppy drives one atop the other. In any case the Apple monitor was too big for that application and it made the Apple not unlike the TRS-80, in that it consisted of too many pieces and took up too much desktop. Nevertheless, monitor or none, the VIDEO was "in there." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s >> The Apple-][ most certainly did come with built-in Video. That's just about >> all that was built-in. > >Strange. Several of my friends bought them back in 1977, and they only >got a computer with an RS170A-compatible (roughly) output on an RCA jack, >which was intended for connection to a TV or monitor that was NOT supplied. > >My point was that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I had brought up earlier had >every bit as "real" a video output as the later systems that Lawrence wants >to designate as "first". > >> BTW, I just gave away one which had an APPLE brand >> monitor with it. > >Sure, but there weren't any Apple brand monitors in 1977. Apple didn't >even resell another brand of monitor at that time. > >I stand by my assertion that the PDP-8/e with VT8-E was a personal computer >with raster graphics. It was designed for use by one person, and was >inexpensive enough that a determined but not fabulously wealthy person could >buy one. A few people did. > >The VT05 that Allison mentioned was a raster display terminal, but did not >have graphics capabilities (even as an option). I've got one. I don't have >a VT8-E; since I can't seem to find one, I'd at least like to get some prints >and build one.

27 years, 1 month

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Ebay virus on the loose

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Forwarded without comment: http://www.tbtf.com/index.html --Chuck

27 years, 1 month

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z80 timing... 6502 timing

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 4/21/99 6:09:47 PM Central Daylight Time, allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > <Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. > <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to > <the old magazines) > > Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the > 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? > > Allison > Yes, not including any by NS. I know they produced boards, just like most manufacturers did. DigiKey had something in their catalogs, but its been so long, I don't remember exactly what it was. (maybe just reselling the NS stuff?) Kelly

27 years, 1 month

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More 3rd Party DEC boards

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>DILOG DQ342 >>Quad Height, has a 34 and a 10-pin connector > >I think this is a MSCP MFM disk controller (there was also a floppy-only >version.) Found it in the book - this is, indeed, the floppy-only version. Tim.

27 years, 1 month

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M9302 Capaciters

by danburrows＠mindspring.com

The 3 that are at the end of each chip - .01 disc The 4 at the end of the resistor rows marked 224 i.e. 0.22 IIRC without looking. The 2 in the middle of a row of resistors .001 disc The electrolytic in the middle 39 mfd at 10v. There is only 1 installed even though there is solder mask for 2. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 5:49 PM Subject: M9302 Capaciters >Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've >got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my >inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. >The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. > >I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at >least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, >they're that badly smashed. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >

27 years, 1 month

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M9302 Capaciters

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Well, in getting the area around the /44 cleared up I discovered that I've got a M9302 after all, of course there is a reason that they weren't on my inventory list. All the capaciters on the board are pretty well smashed. The printed circuitry is also fairly badly corroded. I think I can probably get it cleaned up enough to use temporarily at least, however, I need to know what size of caps I'm supposed to use (yes, they're that badly smashed. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 1 month

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SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Aaron, It boots to the monitor prompt just fine but it won't boot from the hard drive. It may have been set up to boot from a LAN and just use the hard drive for local storage. I don't know enough about SUNs to know how to tell. Joe At 09:13 AM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >What do you need to get the IPC going? I've got a bunch of "extra" Sun >stuff around, so maybe I can help you get it going. > >Or is it something more like non-functioning hardware? Does it boot to the >monitor prompt? > >Aaron > >On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what >> I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. >> >> Thanks for the help. >> Joe > >

27 years, 1 month

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New toy, IBM 5140

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 99-04-22 20:15:58 EDT, you write: > I picked up a nice looking 5140 today, even has a very nice IBM matching > carrying case. The wall wart (ac adapter) though looks wrong, its IBM, but > its small ala 200 MA (I gotta read the numbers, sorry, but I wanted to post > about my new toy right away). > > Anybody have details on the AC adapter, i know its model 6820822 from a > dealer ad, but naturally they don't mention the output voltage etc. Looks > like a brick sized unit. > yes, it is size of a brick! mine says output15v dc 2.7A original memory size was 256k. how much memory does yours have? The machine actually has power management including standby. <!> Not many programs will run on it but nice to have 720k floppies though.

27 years, 1 month

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