Doug,
I just revived my GRiD 1530 (and it was a pain)... Tandy still sells parts
for these (not many and pricey too!)
I bought a new mother board (only to later find out that my old one just
lacked memory) and a technical reference manual (what a waste of money).
What are you trying to find out?
Arfon
At 07:59 PM 5/18/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>You guys and gals are probably getting tired of my little GRiD updates,
>but here goes anyway...
>
>I am typing this message on the GRiDCase. So the modem works. 2400bps.
>
>I found Rob's GRiDBoard website, and from there found out that AST keeps
>the configuration files for a lot of old GRiDs on its website.
>
>I downloaded conf1520.exe from there.
>
>Now I have my doubts about this machine even being a GRiDCase 1520. Most
>of the configuration options don't work or are meaningless to this
>particular machine. Like the thing to set the backlighting on the display
>- my machine has a gas plasma display. And it seems to be telling me that
>my machine doesn't have a modem... so what the heck am I using right now?
>
>It did let me configure my expansion RAM from EMS to XMS... or was that
>the other way around? And it let me change my processor speed. But it
>wouldn't let me do anything with the hard disk and a whole bunch of other
>weird things.
>
>It's a '286 machine, magnesium alloy case, 1.44MB floppy, had a 20MB HD in
>it, has a 2400bps internal modem, standard PC ports, gas plasma display,
>two ROM sockets under a trapdoor above the keyboard... could this thing
>be anything other than a 1520?
>
>Note that is says "GRiDCASE 1500 Series" above the display.
>
>Now I suppose it's time to see if I can have the machine work *without* a
>hard drive installed. I just got a _very_ scary message about JVC drives
>seizing and taking HD controllers with them. (Thanks for the warning,
>Jason!)
>
>Of course, as the drive that was in the machine when I got it was seized
>up, the damage may already be done. And maybe that's why I'm still unable
>to access the HD. :(
>
>--
>Doug Spence
>ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
>http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
>
>
>
----------------------------------------
Tired of Micro$oft???
Move up to a REAL OS...
######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
# ######
("LINUX" for those of you
without fixed-width fonts)
----------------------------------------
Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
Slackware Mailing List:
http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html
*I* don't think it is at all.
Apparently the SELLER thinks it's like an altair. I was complaining (read:
making fun of) the seller's silly choice of words. Probably because it has
switches and lights. Geez... I didn't know all machines with switches and
lights had the same architecture <grin>.
Jay West
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: **RARE** "Altair-like" HP1000 minicomputer K00L K00L Vintage!
<grin>
>>
>> Now that's the SECOND time I've seen someone list an HP1000 on Ebay
calling
>> it an "Altair-like HP1000".
>
>Can you please enlighten me as to how an HP1000 is like an Altair?
>
>-tony
>
>
Hi. In my last visit to a very nice junkyard (near Lisbon,
Portugal) I came across a box, a bit larger than a DECserver 300,
named DECmicroserver, having about 4 very large D connectors (3 rows
of pins) named "line 1" in the back. Anyone knows what it is? (I'm
really tempted to buy it).
Regards,
--
*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
*** Teaching Assistant and MSc. Student at ISR:
*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, Portugal
*** PGP Public Key available on my homepage:
*** http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
*** Key fingerprint = 0C 0A 25 58 46 CF 14 99 CF 9C AF 9E 10 02 BB 2A
Let's try to keep this in perspective, Sam. When there's a text file format
which will display the exploded view drawings in these service documents on
your (Apple ][, Commodore 64, Atari x00, TI 99/4a, TRS-80 Model x, Heathkit
Hx, OSI Challenger x, IMSAI 8080, Altair
>8800, etc) then you may have a valid point. For that matter, aside from
the last three on the list, there's not one likely to need this
documentation, nor is it likely that anyone unable to afford disk space
enough to hold a complete PDF file of one of these relatively short
documents when a 10GB disk drive costs less than $200, will be able to
afford one of the "antique" devices to which they apply.
Aside from all that, I'd speculate that there are more Windows users who die
every day than there are users of computer systems desiring but inherently
unable to view PDF files in the world. Having said that, however, I submit
that the majority should not dictate to the extent that the needs of the
minority are ignored. If you can come up with a format common to both
illustrations and text for the implementation of which a single and
easy-to-use tool set is in the hands of someone(s) willing to process this
set of documents within a reasonable time frame into an appropriately
formatted archive suitable to the yet-to-be-determined provider of web-site
space, it will receive appropriate consideration. Take solace in the fact
that I will not likely be among those making these choices. Since I have
the documents, my preference, at least with respect to them is not
particularly relevant.
Take a look at the "unofficial CP/M web site," whatever the URL is, and
you'll see the document files offered in several formats, though I'd
speculate that none of the systems you listed in your comments, "(Apple ][,
Commodore 64, Atari x00, TI 99/4a, TRS-80 Model x, Heathkit Hx, OSI
Challenger x, IMSAI 8080, Altair 8800, etc)" can view any of those files.
Perhaps you can offer a positive construct rather than simply wringing your
hands and being a naysayer.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
>> >Well, I definitely agree with Tony on this.
>>
>> On which point, Sam?
>
>On the point that the archive should be made accessible to as many people
>as possible, and that means using formats and data that just about anyone
>can read.
>
>> Well, I don't, and for the reason that lowest common denominator means
the
>> lowest efficiency for the most people. I want to make it easy and
>> accessible to as many people as possible. Based on statistics, that
means
>> that the only OS that really matters is . . . now say it along with me .
.
>
>Bullshit. There are more tools for viewing ASCII data than any other
>format under every OS. This includes tools that allow you to search and
>edit them. Just because most of the planet is stuck with a Microsoft OS
>doesn't mean that all those people can also use a PDF viewer. I'm on a
>Pentium 133 system and viewing PDF files is a pain in the ass.
>
>It is also the most efficient format in terms of taking up the least
>amount of storage space. I can download a textfile in a few seconds. I
>can even view it with my web browser, and search it. I can cut parts out
>and paste them elsewhere.
>
>Making a
>"public" archive in the sense that everyone should be able to view it
>means catering to the lowest common denominator.
>
>
>> I don't anticipate getting complete agreement from everyone. What has to
be
>> considered is (1) What do the owners of the data have to say? (2) What
are
>> the people willing to do the work willing to do? (3) Where are these
>> documents to be stored and presented to the public and how much space
will
>> they allow for this purpose? (4) What will satisfy the needs and
preferences
>> of MOST of the people having access to the documents? The weight
assigned
>> to the answers will probably be in about this order as well.
>
>What good is putting in all the effort when not many people will be able
>to benefit from that effort? Contrary to what you think, the PDF format
>is not that widespread. Sure there are viewers, and the format is
>documented, but how many people have that plug-in or the stand-alone on
>their computer? Now ask yourself, how many people have a text editor on
>their computer?
>
>> As far as I'm concerned, what's most important is that the documents be
>> stored as complete, separate, and single files. They should not be
broken
>> up into pages or chapters or text in one part and graphics in another in
the
>> stupid, Stupid, STUPID way much of the LINUX documentation is published.
>
>Not everyone with a Linux box has a SVGA monitor with gigabytes of hard
>drive space and oodles of RAM. The developers of the Linux documentation
>were smart enough to realize that. It allows you to get only what you
>need, and not end up with a bunch of dead data taking up precious space on
>your hard drive.
>
>> Further, while GIF format is probably OK for your vacation pictures or
the
>> latest centerfold, I don't find it particularly advantageous for
presenting
>> line-art drawings because common viewers don't have a standard
presentation
>> format for them. They come in a size matched to some raster image and if
>> your display matches it, great, else too bad. Again I prefer the PDF,
not
>> only because it is what most people can get and use for free, but because
it
>> is a single format useable in common for both text and graphics.
>
>I can't view a PDF file with my (Apple ][, Commodore 64, Atari x00, TI
>99/4a, TRS-80 Model x, Heathkit Hx, OSI Challenger x, IMSAI 8080, Altair
>8800, etc).
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
>
> Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 05/25/99]
>
> Hi. In my last visit to a very nice junkyard (near Lisbon,
>Portugal) I came across a box, a bit larger than a DECserver 300,
>named DECmicroserver, having about 4 very large D connectors (3 rows
>of pins) named "line 1" in the back. Anyone knows what it is? (I'm
>really tempted to buy it).
Those D connectors carry synchronous data to and from IBM SNA boxes.
I've seen these set up in medium-sized businesses that had both IBM
networked mainframes/minis and DEC minis that need to talk to each other.
There's a beefier version called the "DEC Channelserver" which, I've
always inferred from the name, hooks to the IBM Channel architecture.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
The "D" refers to the shape and the "B" refers to the shell-size. Hence,
your typical RS-232 cable has a DB-25, indicating a D-connector with a size
B shell with 25 contacts in it. They are further designated 'S' for socket
(female) and 'P' for plug (male), which is not too hard to figure out.
Likewise, the floppy disk cable connector formerly seen on PC FDC's used a
DC37S connector, and what's most often seen on SCSI equipment attached to
SUN systems is a DD50, though I can't remember which sex goes on what. The
smaller serial connector now common on PC's is a DE-9, and the 15-pin
connector used for joystics and MIDI is the DA15. On the other hand, the
VGA connector would be a DE15, though I can't say I've ever seen it called
out that way.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Truman <jack_truman(a)hotmail.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 8:22 PM
Subject: i'm confused..
>Hello,
> This is probably a dumb questions, but i'm unsure of what a "D-type
>b-miniature connector" is. I'm trying to connect my PC's serial port to my
>VAXstation 3100, and the H8571-J adapter converts the 6-pin MMJ port to a
>"D-type sub-miniature connector." Is that simply a fancy word for a female
>serial port?
>Thanks in advance. :)
>
>-Jack
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Hello,
This is probably a dumb questions, but i'm unsure of what a "D-type
b-miniature connector" is. I'm trying to connect my PC's serial port to my
VAXstation 3100, and the H8571-J adapter converts the 6-pin MMJ port to a
"D-type sub-miniature connector." Is that simply a fancy word for a female
serial port?
Thanks in advance. :)
-Jack
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>>I'm advocating that any public archive should be accessible to as many
people as possible.
It's fruitless arguments like this disuade other list members from making
their DOCS available. No matter what format is chosen, *someone* will
always be dissatisfied.
I say, use whatever methodology is most convenient for the "publisher". If
another user wants the info bad enough, they'll figure out how to read it!
Just my $.02
Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
Hi!
I just picked up a Disney Sound Source (?1983) from a flea market. From
what I know, it's a external sound card that'll play Wav files. Does anyone
have drivers for it??
ThAnX,
///--->>>
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
These aren't S-100 card documents, Sam, they're Disk drive documents, and
they're service documents at that.
A positive construct would be a novel thing to see from you, Sam. You're
against everything, and favor nothing, apparently. Can you name even one
computer from among the ones you listed that has the capability real, not
putative, in both hardware and software, of getting anything from the web?
Those people who choose to use computers unable to handle graphic displays
always have the option of choosing to use a computer capable of doing so.
If they choose not to, it's no different from you choosing your position.
It's their choice which prevents them from having the benefit of an archive
not compatible with the dozen or two others in their group, while readily
accessible to the tens of millions who don't make that choice. They can
always go to the local library if they need. It's like the folks who won't
drive a car, though not as environmentally conscious. They could ride a
bus. They really don't have to walk, and you, Sam, you don't have to sit
and curse the darkness. I invite you to light one candle. Make a
suggestion that would work.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
>> Let's try to keep this in perspective, Sam. When there's a text file
>> format which will display the exploded view drawings in these service
>> documents on your (Apple ][, Commodore 64, Atari x00, TI 99/4a, TRS-80
>> Model x, Heathkit Hx, OSI Challenger x, IMSAI 8080, Altair >8800, etc)
>
>You're still missing the point. Some people choose to use computers that
>aren't even PC-based. All they may have availabe is a text-based display
>and a couple disk drives.
>
>You're the one who should keep this in prespective. Since when does all
>documentation reuire an exploded diagram? Why does an S-100 bus card need
>an exploded diagram??
>
>> then you may have a valid point. For that matter, aside from the last
>> three on the list, there's not one likely to need this documentation,
>> nor is it likely that anyone unable to afford disk space enough to
>> hold a complete PDF file of one of these relatively short documents
>> when a 10GB disk drive costs less than $200, will be able to afford
>> one of the "antique" devices to which they apply.
>
>This is a silly argument, but coming from you I'm not surprised.
>
>> Take a look at the "unofficial CP/M web site," whatever the URL is, and
>> you'll see the document files offered in several formats, though I'd
>> speculate that none of the systems you listed in your comments,
"(Apple ][,
>> Commodore 64, Atari x00, TI 99/4a, TRS-80 Model x, Heathkit Hx, OSI
>> Challenger x, IMSAI 8080, Altair 8800, etc)" can view any of those files.
>>
>> Perhaps you can offer a positive construct rather than simply wringing
your
>> hands and being a naysayer.
>
>I'm hardly being a naysayer. I'm advocating that any public archive
>should be accessible to as many people as possible. I'm not forcing you
>to follow my suggestions. I realize that not everyone has a firm grasp on
>common sense.
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
>
> Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 05/25/99]
>
Hi,
On Thu, 13 May 1999 Doug Spence wrote:
> >> As for disk transfers, I can do that with my handy-dandy A1020 drive
> >> on my Amiga. It reads and writes several Atari 8-bit formats just
> >> fine, including 810 (SS/SD) and XF551 (DS/DD?).
> >
> > Hmm have to check that out.
>
> Yes, if your Amiga's 5.25" floppy drive is connected to the Amiga's
> floppy controller, you should be able to do the same thing.
>
> The program for doing this is on aminet:misc/emu/551conv.lha
Talking of the Amiga 1020 drive... I would like to get hold of one of these. Am
I correct in thinking that they were not sold in the UK (where I live)?
If I can't find an A1020 (or compatible replacement, if any were made), I may
try and rig up my own drive.
To this end, can some kind person who owns an A1020 open it up, and tell me
what type/model the drive mechanism is, and also describe any interface PCB
that's inside?
-- Mark
I don't have any Disney games, but I downloaded Sputter and tried it out on
my Zenith SupersPORT (8088). All I could get it to do was make the internal
speaker crackle. I seem to be doing what it says to in the docs (for
Sputter), but can't get it to work. I wouldn't mind having the Windows
drivers, though, since I hope to use the Sound Source on an old 386 laptop
that I have (maybe...)
///--->>>
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ruschmeyer <jruschme(a)exit109.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sonntag, 6. Juni 1999 17:31
Subject: Re: Disney Sound Source
>> >I just picked up a Disney Sound Source (?1983) from a flea market. From
>> >what I know, it's a external sound card that'll play Wav files. Does
anyone
>> >have drivers for it??
>>
>> Jason,
>>
>> I think there are drivers for it in Windows 3.1 .
>
>There are Windows 3.1 drivers (I have a copy around here somewhere... just
>hope it's on something readable). Beyond that, I know that some Disney
>games supported it as did the sound utility 'sputter'.
>
><<<john>>>
>
Yeah. Whit a little silver box with a Mickey Mouse Silhouette on it. It
looked similar to the Covox Speech Thing, and connected to the amplifier /
speaker with a RJ-11 jack.
///--->>>
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
BTW>> I need drivers for the Covox Speech Thing, too.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Passmore <fpp(a)concentric.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sonntag, 6. Juni 1999 13:15
Subject: Re: Disney Sound Source
>Is this the sound card that attached to the parallel port?
>
>>I just picked up a Disney Sound Source (?1983) from a flea market. From
>>what I know, it's a external sound card that'll play Wav files. Does
>anyone
>>have drivers for it??
>
>
>
Gracias too Tim and Bruce for the answer to my board question.
I have the 16-channel RS232 port assembly that goes on the other
end of this... I just didn't know what it hooked up to.. till now.
What started this was taking an inventory of the 1/44 to see about
fitting an RL11 into it, thus to begin using RL02s.
Of course this rash activity is bound to generate a small flurry
of further perplexities... at least I've got full docs on everything.
Cheerz
John
Also I have Docs on the CS11 if you need to know something
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: John Lawson <jpl15(a)netcom.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 9:31 PM
Subject: Emulex Thanx
>
> Gracias too Tim and Bruce for the answer to my board question.
>
> I have the 16-channel RS232 port assembly that goes on the other
>end of this... I just didn't know what it hooked up to.. till now.
>
> What started this was taking an inventory of the 1/44 to see about
>fitting an RL11 into it, thus to begin using RL02s.
>
> Of course this rash activity is bound to generate a small flurry
>of further perplexities... at least I've got full docs on everything.
>
> Cheerz
>
>John
>
>
First of all, let me say that I'm in complete agreement with your notion
that the doc's don't have to be put out in only one format. It's just that
I've been so extremely satisfied (ask anyone who knows me and they'll tell
you that's not easy!) with the PDF for document publication that any other
way simply hadn't arrived here yet.
With the Acrord32 program under Win95, you can print the pages you want and
skip the rest, you can search for specific words and phrases, and you can
print double-sided whether you have a duplex printer or not. You can
generate extremely good-looking documents with almost no effort. You just
can't edit them or such, and that's fine with me. I've seen some truly
terrible PDF documents, obviously scanned from bad source documents or with
a really dirty scanner, and not cleaned up as I'd probably be inclined to do
if any of these documents turned out to be "bad" or difficult to read. The
ones I've seen which were bad were posted PDF's of CP/M documents which I
probably ought to be glad I could get in any form.
What I would like to avoid, here, is getting in a position where we evaluate
the product on the basis of the tools used to generate it. I use WIndows95
because it's a convenient tool for doing what I do with it. I use DOS where
it's convenient and when I see a version of, say, LINUX that's got current
documentation I'll look at it again too, since there are supposed to be some
things that it does very handily as well. I agree about the documentation
angle, but I don't agree that being free makes a product better. It just
improves the price-performance comparison factors and helps with motivation
to try it. I do believe that publishing the scanned documents as completely
as possible is desirable, so that when you run into that "see figure 8a on
page ..." you'll have that as well. If you only need to print sheet 14 of
39, that's what you should be able to print, not the entire document when
all you wanted was the PLL's lowpass filter. PDF allows all that. If we
can get a consensus on other formats, I'm willing. For now, we still need a
"home" for such documents as these. The provider of this site space may
have something to say about format or about how many formats he sees fit to
house.
If this set of doc's can be scanned and put together into a useable form of
PDF document, then I see that as one relatively straightforward solution.
If there were a good PCL or PostScript viewer, widely distributed enough
that a substantial number of potential users would have it at their
disposal, that would also be useful distribution format. If it could be
hammered into a Word97 document, that might be a candidate. What's
important is that a large number of potential users have access to the
format that's chosen.
Comments and suggestions are welcome!
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>> If, ultimately, the decision is made to serve these documents up in
linked
>> form rather than monolithic form, I'd submit that it is still desirable
to
>> be able to download the entire document as a single object. Some
provision
>> for that must be made, and I don't think it's simple.
>>
>> Comments?
>
>Well, of course, nobody is saying that you have to distribute these
>documents in only one format. And in many ways, the original scans (as
>.gif or whatever) are closer to the original documents that something
>that's been modified (OCRed, cleaned up, etc, so IMHO they should be
>available somewhere.
>
>I still think that a .pdf is not the best way to group a number of
>scanned pages together. There are plenty of simpler, better documented,
>solutions for this. Two obvious ones are .zip and .tar.gz . I've used
>many ftp sites that will create one or other of those 'on the fly' - if
>you want to download an entire directory, you can get
><directory_name>.zip (or .tar.gz) and it transfers one file to your
>machine for you to unpack later.
>
>But the ability to get only some pages from a manual I would think would
>be very useful. Most times service manuals contain information that is
>not that useful for a particular repair (things like the original parts
>lists when parts haven't been stocked under those part numbers for at
>least 10 years, things like the exploded diagrams when you have an
>electronic fault, or the schematics when you have a mechanical fault,
>etc). I don't like wasting network bandwidth if I can avoid it.
>
>
>
>>
>> Dick
>
>-tony
>
I have an Emulex CS1110201-U2D card in my 11/44 system, that
despite my best efforts at due diligence, I cannot find a reference
or any other data regearding it.
The other numbers on the label associated with the part number are
3997H and 4372A, and along the top it has a number of PROMS marked
300J thru 311J. It is hex-height and has a single Berg header with
a ribbon cable and 34-pin connector. The connector is marked with
the number CU1111201-02 B.
If anyone recognizes this I would like to know 'whuzzit'?
Cheers
John
COWABUNGA!!
My beautiful new GRiD Compass is now online!
The keyboard seems to need a little bit of cleaning or working-in,
sometimes keypresses don't register.
This thing automatically loads up a VT100 emulator when I turn it on.
Does anyone know anything about GRiD-OS? I think it was version
3.something. I'll verify that later.
I'm just SOOO happy that the Compass works! I'v been wanting to at least
_see_ one in operation since I first read the review in... I'm not
sure... January 1984 Creative Computing? (No, I think that was the
Gavilan.)
I'm going to have to poke around some more. I just wanted to dial in with
the thing and make this announcement. :) (It's hard to find a provider
that will accept a 1200bps conection these days, huh?)
So... GPIB is the same as IEEE-488? Anyone got an adapter cable for
GRiD-to-CBM? :)
YES!! Plasma display AND bubble memory in ONE machine!
--
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
> I have an Emulex CS1110201-U2D card in my 11/44 system, that
>despite my best efforts at due diligence, I cannot find a reference
>or any other data regearding it.
> If anyone recognizes this I would like to know 'whuzzit'?
This is (surprise) an Emulex CS11. It emulates a DH11 async multiplexer,
with some bells and whistles like modem control if you use the right cab
kit. The magic for this series of Emulex cards is in the cab kit,
as there's a fair amount of logic that lives there. Do you have the
cab kit?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, James Szajda wrote:
> If you are still the person to contact, I am looking for a boot disk for
> a Victor 9000 system. Any help you can give me will be appreciated.
For many machines I am, James. Unfortunately, the Victor 9000 is not one
of them. The problem is that the 9000, or Sirius, uses a very unusual
format on its disks. They are both Group Code Recording formatted and
also done on a variable speed drive. Essentially, the only person who can
provide you with a boot disk is someone who owns one that is in working
condition.
I will post this to the Classic Computer mailing list and see if it
generates any response to you. In the meantime, it might serve you well
to post a query on comp.os.cpm and see if that gets a response.
Wish I could do more.
- don
donm(a)cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/
with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/
Is this the sound card that attached to the parallel port?
>I just picked up a Disney Sound Source (?1983) from a flea market. From
>what I know, it's a external sound card that'll play Wav files. Does
anyone
>have drivers for it??
I've observed that many text documents are formatted in HTML rather than
PDF, and have links to seaparate files for the graphic segments. The
manuals do have considerable text in them, which might benefit from OCR and
re-creation and re-editing of the manuals with only the scanned graphics as
original files. Even some of the schematic segments might be better
re-created due to the fine line pitch, which tends to become really ugly in
scanned documents.
I use Typemaster Pro, which is quite old, but very effective at isolating
graphics from text and perhaps well suited for segregating the text sections
>from the illustrations. It's been around since about 10 years ago when
nothing else would touch it. My scanner is a 300 DPI monochrome (but legal
size) scanner with a sheetfeeder (which I wish would work properly). In
conjuction with this old scanner, the software has done multipage scans to
text of large documents in almost as little time as it takes to read them.
It manages to learn the fonts and handles two typefaces with serifs at the
same time as two without. If your document has more than that, you're on
your own, of course, but it does a nice job, particularly with handling text
which is flowed around some graphics, which it recognizes and leaves
undisturbed.
If, ultimately, the decision is made to serve these documents up in linked
form rather than monolithic form, I'd submit that it is still desirable to
be able to download the entire document as a single object. Some provision
for that must be made, and I don't think it's simple.
Comments?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>[Wonderful list of docs snipped]
>
>> If this stuff is worth preserving, perhaps there's a way to save scanned
>> images for eventual conversion to PDF. Does anyone know about this?
>
>In my opinion, PDF files are not really appropriate for scanned documents
>(they _may_ be more use for documents that are initially created and
>distributed in this format). For one (selfish) thing, I've yet to find a
>useable way to print these out on any of my machines.
>
>The best way I've seen so far for this is simply to put a directory of
>suitable graphics files on an ftp site (.gif seems to compress quite well
>- 17"*11" circuit diagrams scanned at 300dpi are around 300K) and provide
>a text file describing each page (not just as 'page 7 of the ST506 service
>manual' but something like 'page 7 -- Page 1 of 3 of the schematic').
>
>That way, people can download just what they want (if you need a
>schematic, you don't waste time downloading parts lists as well). And the
>result is portable to a lot more systems.
>
>If there are substantial text areas in the manual it may be worth trying
>to OCR it to a plain ASCII file.
>
>-tony
>
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Interesting. This is the first time I've heard of a 16 sector RK05f pack
> (not too suprised that one existed...)
>
> I am told that you couldn't reliably move RK05f packs between drives.
> Heck, you were supposed to reformat the pack (according to one of the
> manuals) if you took it out and put it back in again.
Bummer. I've always wondered what's on this thing. I may never know. :-(
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>Tim Shoppa just noted that V5.7 of RT-11 allows an RX50 floppy drive
>to FORMAT under RT-11, but I am not aware if that is for EVERY
>RX50 floppy drive, OR ONLY the special ones that have been noted
>as being able to do a FORMAT on a Rainbow. Either you (Allison)
>or Megan Gentry or someone else mentioned that recently. And I
>don't know if all RQDX1,2,3 are included.
I've not yet tried formatting an RX50 with V5.7, but I suspect that
it requires 1) an RX33 drive and 2) an RQDX3 (though maybe even the
RQZX1 will work - I'll have to defer to Tim on this).
When I was working on V5.6, the best we could do was format RX33s on
an RX33 drive... if you attemped to format an RX50 on an RX33 drive,
you got an RX33-formatted RX50 which was neither 1) usable or
2) reformattable to RX50.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
By the way . . . it might be desirable to find an appropriate site on which
to post this stuff for general use. Where's the most appropriate site?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>Perhaps that will be the way to make these items available to those who
need
>them. I've had several requests for one or another of these documents in
>recent weeks. This may turn out to be somewhat of a headache, as some,
e.g.
>the SIEMENS documents, are still in the form of a booklet, and, having been
>wet at one point or another, it may be desirable to scan them and reduce
>them to text as opposed, simply, to preserving the graphic images. This
>will mean the graphics need to be repaired in some way as well.
>
>Apparently, as people try to resurrect their ancient computing hardware,
>they find some of it is in need of maintenance. Mine certainly has turned
>out that way.
>
>Dick
>-----Original Message-----
>From: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 7:09 AM
>Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>
>
>>Hi Dick,
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
>>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>>Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 11:55 PM
>>Subject: Disk Drive Documents
>>
>>
>>>If this stuff is worth preserving, perhaps there's a way to save scanned
>>>images for eventual conversion to PDF. Does anyone know about this?
>>
>>
>>Send it to me, if you like. We should have all the tools needed in house.
>>
>>cheers,
>>emanuel
>>
>>
>
Several of these documents have very detailed graphics (line-art, mostly)
which may or may not scan well. I would not like to have to re-create the
exploded view assembly drawings. Though I have a scanner and some really
quite excellent OCR software, I've never been able to deal well with highly
detailed line art. The typical FAX scanner at 100x100 pixels per inch would
not render these drawings in any useable form. Even at 200x100, which is
the best I've ever gotten from a FAX.
Emanuel Stiebler has offered to handle this with tools he has in house.
I'll see what he and I can work up, as he and I live in the same geographic
area.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Innfogra(a)aol.com <Innfogra(a)aol.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>
>> If this stuff is worth preserving, perhaps there's a way to save scanned
>> images for eventual conversion to PDF. Does anyone know about this?
>
>They are definitely worth saving. Many people don't have access to these.
>
>Fax the pages to your computer with a regular fax machine. The full version
>of Acrobat will convert many fax images to PDF. I know there are several
>other programs that will convert too, but I am not sure of their names. I
>have an old DOS program called Hijaak Pro that converted between many
vector,
>raster and fax file formats. I looked and it is a pre-PDF program.
>Paxton
Perhaps that will be the way to make these items available to those who need
them. I've had several requests for one or another of these documents in
recent weeks. This may turn out to be somewhat of a headache, as some, e.g.
the SIEMENS documents, are still in the form of a booklet, and, having been
wet at one point or another, it may be desirable to scan them and reduce
them to text as opposed, simply, to preserving the graphic images. This
will mean the graphics need to be repaired in some way as well.
Apparently, as people try to resurrect their ancient computing hardware,
they find some of it is in need of maintenance. Mine certainly has turned
out that way.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: emanuel stiebler <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Disk Drive Documents
>Hi Dick,
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 11:55 PM
>Subject: Disk Drive Documents
>
>
>>If this stuff is worth preserving, perhaps there's a way to save scanned
>>images for eventual conversion to PDF. Does anyone know about this?
>
>
>Send it to me, if you like. We should have all the tools needed in house.
>
>cheers,
>emanuel
>
>
>>RX50 formatting under RT-11 V5.7 (i.e. FORMAT/SINGLE DUn:) only is
>>supported on certain 3rd-party controllers like the Andromeda ESDC and
>>SCDC. It doesn't work with RQDX1/2/3's.
>Regarding my prior message, I stand corrected...
Well, in *this* particular case, Mentec arranged for Andromeda to
give me a SCDC controller with some SCSI drives and 5.25" and 3.5" floppies,
and that's the reason why the Andromeda is supported for this operation
under RT-11 5.7 :-).
>But even though an RQDX3 is not required (or useful) for this, I'll
>suspect an RX33-type drive still is. Is that correct, Tim?
Not necessarily. I just hooked a true DEC RX50 to my SCDC, configured
it, and it still lets me do a RX50 format:
SCDC User Service Port V3.06
B Configure controller HARDWARE JUMPERS
D Display/define physical DRIVE PARAMETERS
A Assign logical DU/MU UNITS
C Configure controller SOFTWARE OPTIONS
E Exercise a SCSI DISK drive
F FORMAT a DISK drive
P RESET controller and EXIT
? d
SCSI or Floppy (S or F)? f
Floppy drive number (0 or 1)? 0
Floppy drive 0: 800 blocks
Floppy drive types:
76 3.5" 80 track DS
134 5.25" 80 track DS
420 DEC RX50 dual drive
Floppy drive type (76, 134, or 420) [134]? 420
SCSI or Floppy (S or F)?
SAVE CHANGES- Are you sure (Y or N) [N]? y
SCDC User Service Port V3.06
B Configure controller HARDWARE JUMPERS
D Display/define physical DRIVE PARAMETERS
A Assign logical DU/MU UNITS
C Configure controller SOFTWARE OPTIONS
E Exercise a SCSI DISK drive
F FORMAT a DISK drive
P RESET controller and EXIT
? f
SCSI or Floppy (S or F)? f
Floppy drive number (0 or 1)? 0
Floppy drive 0: (offline)
Available floppy formats:
DD 800 blocks
Which format (# of blocks)?
Now whether you want to actually do the format on a DEC RX50 drive is
another question. According to Charles Lasner's voluminous posts on RX50
technical details, RX50 drives lack the required physical head-positioning
accuracy to make a RX50 floppy that's guaranteed to be interchangable with
other drives. Look at Charles's posts to alt.sys.pdp8 on the topic
>from 4-5 years ago for more details about his tests.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Hi Dick,
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 11:55 PM
Subject: Disk Drive Documents
>If this stuff is worth preserving, perhaps there's a way to save scanned
>images for eventual conversion to PDF. Does anyone know about this?
Send it to me, if you like. We should have all the tools needed in house.
cheers,
emanuel
> If this stuff is worth preserving, perhaps there's a way to save scanned
> images for eventual conversion to PDF. Does anyone know about this?
They are definitely worth saving. Many people don't have access to these.
Fax the pages to your computer with a regular fax machine. The full version
of Acrobat will convert many fax images to PDF. I know there are several
other programs that will convert too, but I am not sure of their names. I
have an old DOS program called Hijaak Pro that converted between many vector,
raster and fax file formats. I looked and it is a pre-PDF program.
Paxton
Hi!
I just started an auction on Ebay for Nicolet
Model 824 plotter. Item # 113397200, closes
6/14/99.
I'd like to add some specs to the description.
Can anyone fill me in on this oldie? It accepts
24 inch paper and emulates HP7475; that's about
the extent of my knowledge. Direct e-mail replies
appreciated. Thanks.
Dan S., Laurel, MD.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>RX50 formatting under RT-11 V5.7 (i.e. FORMAT/SINGLE DUn:) only is
>supported on certain 3rd-party controllers like the Andromeda ESDC and
>SCDC. It doesn't work with RQDX1/2/3's.
Regarding my prior message, I stand corrected...
But even though an RQDX3 is not required (or useful) for this, I'll
suspect an RX33-type drive still is. Is that correct, Tim?
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Hello
I have 2 Kaypro II machines (were working when retired to attic about 10 yrs
ago) and a Kaypro LQ Printer; do you know of any market for these or of any
people anywhere in the world (missionaries, 3rd world schools, etc) that could
use these reliable if outdated by internet standards machines?
It seems a shame that these could be not be used by someone who can't afford
or need to get into the current technology mode. Please send me any leads
you may have.
Dr. Bill O'Brien
obrien(a)southwestern.edu
FAX 512 863 1696
11403 Randy Drive Austin, Texas 78726
>Tim Shoppa just noted that V5.7 of RT-11 allows an RX50 floppy drive
>to FORMAT under RT-11, but I am not aware if that is for EVERY
>RX50 floppy drive.
RX50 formatting under RT-11 V5.7 (i.e. FORMAT/SINGLE DUn:) only is
supported on certain 3rd-party controllers like the Andromeda ESDC and
SCDC. It doesn't work with RQDX1/2/3's.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>Allison J Parent wrote:
> <Believe it or not, it is possible to FORMAT an RX33 floppy under RT-11!
> <Just a little side note which has nothing to do with the original question
> <Also, you can't FORMAT an RX50 under RT-11 and it is much easier to
> <FORMAT the RX50 floppy on a PC. Shout if you want instructions how!
>
> Both would handy to know as doing it under xxdp is terminally slow.
Jerome Fine replies:
<> <How can I format a rd54 disk on a rt11 5.3 ?
<> You cannot unless you write your own utility.
<
<Jerome Fine replies:
<
<For novice PDP-11 folk, this part is incorrect, as Allison
<surely knows, but probably just answered too quickly.
<Technically, I suppose Allison is correct, but I have
<never heard of anyone writing their own version of ZRQC??
No, I am correct. there is no formatter for RDxx drives under RT-11.
XXDP does it really well but that is NOT RT-ll.
There is a lot of work but writing a utility to format a RD under
RT-11 is possible, though if you have the tools and info to do that
you also know XXDP is available.
<Just a note of clarification (again, Allison this is not a flame that you u
<but just correcting your "spelling" - anyone who knows realizes and anyone
<who doesn't understand - it doesn't matter). Allison was referring to the
<SET DUn: UNIT=u, PART=p
Actually I've never used a RD larger than 31mb on an RT11 system so the
SET DUn would not have come to mind. Why no big disks? I have MANY
MANY RD52s and an RD53/54 would be VAX fodder.
Also while RQDX3s are RD54 aware, some of the RQDX1 and 2s are very much
unaware of the RD54 and will produce errors.
Allison
I picked up a couple of Compupros that were used in a Titan missile test
station. Each one has a Compupro 286 CPU, 64^H^H 128 K S-RAM card, EPROM
card, system support card and Interfacer 4 card along with a number of
custom cards. The operating system for them is in EPROM. These were used to
operate a ultrasonic test machine by remote control. Each test stand had a
turntable and gantry that would rotate the missile and run the test head up
and down until it inspected the entire missile body. Each test head had
four large ultrasonic transducers for detecting flaws in the missile. These
computers generated the master timing for the ultra sonic pulses and
converted the return signals from analog to digital then fed the data back
to another computer for further processing. They could be operated at up to
200 MHz PRF. They also took care of things like controlling the
programmable attenuators in the RF receiver. Most of the connectors on them
were replaced with "Canon plugs" and an extra power supply added for use by
one of the special cards. An extra fan was also added inside. All of the
custom cards use gold SMA connectors to connect to each other and to carry
the RF signals. The custom cards have some really neat devices on them such
as flash A/D converters, very fast S-RAM for buffers, switchable
attenuators, a crystal with 10-7 accuaracy, etc.
I was going to convert these back to standard Compupro configuration but
if anyone is seriously interested in them I will consider interesting
trades or $$.
PS I have lots of manuals for them too including schematics and theory
of operation for the custom cards.
I dropped by my old place of work yesterday, lugging my GRiDs and
Toshiba laptop (and I'm still in pain).
The accountant has a laptop that he wanted me to look at. It looks to me
like there's nothing wrong with it except a dead CMOS battery.
How do I get into the setup of an Epson Equity LT-286? And what kind of
battery does it need?
I tried most of the usual setup suspects. Does it require a setup progam
on floppy? It was a 2nd hand machine and the owner doesn't have any disks
for it or manuals (just the machine, power supply, and nice carrying
case).
--
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
On Jun 4, 23:31, Tony Duell wrote:
> I've had many tantalum capacitors catch fire over the years. They're
> pretty spectacular (and smell horrible :-(), but they rarely do any more
> damage.
>
> They seem to go low resistance both ways round (rather than becoming a
> diode), and pass enough current to overheat. Then the burst and spray
> burning bits out...
>
> I have never found a cause of this. I've had several boards that have
> been working fine when put away, but when I pull the out of storage and
> try them, the capacitors go up. They had a sufficiently high voltage
> rating for the position, etc.
> I don't think it happens to protect anything. The capacitor fails _at the
> normal operating voltage_.
Yes, I've seen several fail that way too. The most recent:
A few months ago, we had a "fire" in our machine room over the weekend,
which caused the systems to be automatically shut down. It turned out that
one tantalum cap in one of the PSUs on our 32-processor Origin2000 server
had burned up, the smoke detectors had been tripped, and the rest was
obvious. When the power was restored, everything came back up as normal.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
Oh, you mean my father?
P Manney
"Y1K caused the Dark Ages."
Thousands of discounted photo items at http://www.hmcltd.net/pgphoto
>Are you trading (or trying to) your identity for Henry Manney who
>wrote of exotic motorcars and sportscar racing in Europe more years ago
>than I like to acknowledge?
<Sorry, no external cases and I don't know what they are. These are specifi
<to 220v 50hz.
<I thought S100 style machines had drives with 12v connectors.
These are older drives like the sugart sa800/850 series with line powered ac
motors for the spindles. the rest of the hardware uses typically +24v, +5
and -5v. The later drives were DC motor spindles and very different.
The ones you've found might fit a Heath H8/H11 early 8"disk system or an
older altair/imsai 8" system. that of course is not an exclusive list.
Allison
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Originally, I wrote:
> > The only use I would have for an RK05F is to read this _one_ 16-sector pack
> Isn't the RK05F the fixed-pack version (i.e. the pack was designed to be
> changed during repair operations, and not in normal use).
Yes.
> In which case it's not the best choice for reading a normal pack. The RK05j
> (the other drive he mentioned) could read the pack, but not with a PDP11
> controller (which expects 12 sector packs).
I did not mistype. I have a 16-sector RK05F pack. It was in the drive when
my former employer bought it c. 1982 from Ohio State University surplus before
I worked there. The tech guys removed the F pack and used the RK05J and RJ05F
in the rack with an RK-11C (which I have somewhere). I got the pack off the
shelf in 1984. I have never owned an RK8E, nor a working RK05F, but I do have
at least one working RK05J (one's in the basement, almost certainly working,
attached to an RKV11D, the other is in the shed and is of dubious value).
> Was there ever a 16 sector version of the RK05f? All the ones I've seen
> were 12 sector.
The drive doesn't care except for number of tracks and magnetic gap (the
F heads and J heads are different). The boards are the same (there are
jumpers to select modes of operation). The controllers are the parts that
care how many sectors of how many bytes there are.
So... can *anyone* out there read a 16-sector RK05F pack? I have no use
for it since. as I said, I have no RK8E nor working drive.
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
--- Jay West <jlwest(a)tseinc.com> wrote:
> I would be very interested in the 11/34 rack with the two RK05's, and the
> ASR33.
The only use I would have for an RK05F is to read this _one_ 16-sector pack
that I've had for 15 years and never owned the equipment to read it on (The
drive died with a different pack in it before I got it).
I already have an ASR33 (two, in fact, one with 20mA and one with a data set),
so that's not a part I want.
> I have no interest in the 11/84, and while I am somewhat interested in the
> 8i, I already have an 8E so I should take a back seat to anyone who doesn't
> have an 8.
As I said before, I have 8's, but not any pre-OMNIBUS mass-storage devices.
Presently, my -8/i has 4Kw, but I have all the parts to take it up to 8Kw.
> I'm in Missouri, so Iowa wouldn't be that big of a deal for me.
Indeed.
> I would be willing to tandem up with others and take a hand in getting the
> equipment and splitting it up with other collectors. If anyone wants to get
> together on this, just let me know.
Perhaps we could build an across-the-country rescue tour? If several people
chip in together on the transport (based on a combination of distance and
percentage of material benefit), it might be possible to move that kind of
mass for less than megabucks.
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
A friend of mine locally has happened across a PDP-8L in unknown shape. He
wants to sell it on eOverpay. I wish to prevent this. To do so, I need to
present to him a reasonable price that he can sell it at. The last -8/L
I got was a rescue. The one before that was $200 in a 6' rack with high-speed
paper tape and 12Kw of core (plays papertape Star Trek beautifully ;-)
I have no idea what to tell him. He is a geek, but has no interest in
preserving history. He just wants the money. Can anyone here cough up
a reasonable estimate of what a PDP-8/L is worth? I realize that it's a
tough question, but if I don't have an answer, some core-collecting weenie
is probably going to have a trophy to nail to the wall.
If it's worth more than I'm willing to pay, I'll gladly help anyone on this
list with aquiring it. The machine is located in north-central Ohio, but
the owner drives to work in Columbus every day.
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Hello, I have a VAXstation 4000 VLC with 24mb RAM, no HD and by itself for
sell or trade. I found some basic specs on it and it maxs out at 24mb and all
six RAM slots are filled. It is very clean and powers up OK - that's all I
can check. Please respond directly to mtpro(a)aol.com and thanks! Best,
David Greelish
Classic Computing Press
www.classiccomputing.com
>>Alternatively, if you have a VS2000, it has a RQDX3-compabitle
>> formatter built into it.
>I just formatted the disk in a MVII with the diagnostic tape.
Or - maybe you didn't :-(. The MVII diagnostics are worse than useless.
>>What error message do you get when you try DIR DU0: ? If it's a
>>"?DIR-F-Error reading directory",
>I still get this one ...
Then you didn't format the RD54 successfully. The best you can hope
for with the MVII diagnostics is to turn an already formatted RD54
into a formatted RD54. The worst that can happen is that you
lose an already existing format.
Let me know what media it'd be useful to you on, and I'll get you a
bootable XXDP disk/pack/cart/tape with ZRQC?? on it.
>.INIT Du0:
>DU0: Initialize are you sure ?Y
>?DUP-F-Size function failed
Yep - you need to really reformat the disk, as opposed to what the MVII
diagnosics do. And congratulations on actually posting the command
you used and the error message that resulted!! If only everyone else
on the list could do the same, it'd be a much nicer world!!
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>Also, you can't FORMAT an RX50 under RT-11 and it is much easier to
>FORMAT the RX50 floppy on a PC.
So you might believe, until you read the minutae about RX50 formatting
support in the RT-11 5.7 release notes :-). I most certainly have
formatted RX50's under RT-11 5.7...
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
I have a SCSI card I was given and I'd like to find data or info
to use them. There is no question they are SCSI from the chips and
connectors.
The boards appear to be MTI QTS25 (viking marked on one Eprom). Standard
dual height dual width.
I'm hoping they are MSCP as I play to try them.
Allison
<How can I format a rd54 disk on a rt11 5.3 ?
You cannot unless you write your own utility.
<(disk & floppy are on RQDX3 controller)
You need the XXDP diag for that.
<.FORMAT DU0:
<
<i get "device not supported, ...)
I sounds like the Viking series. Zane was kind enough to post a few things
I scanned which includes an OCR of the Viking manuals along with a few gif
scans of pages that the OCR did not keep lined up.
Feel free to contact me off list for more info.
ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi
>I have a SCSI card I was given and I'd like to find data or info
>to use them. There is no question they are SCSI from the chips and
>connectors.
>
>The boards appear to be MTI QTS25 (viking marked on one Eprom). Standard
>dual height dual width.
>
>I'm hoping they are MSCP as I play to try them.
Depends on the PAL that is installed. The markings are as follows:
QTO= Tape only (TMSCP)
QDO= Disk only (MSCP)
QDT= Disk and Tape.
Dan
---Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Formatting disk on rt11
>Alternatively, if you have a VS2000, it has a RQDX3-compabitle
> formatter built into it.
I just formatted the disk in a MVII with the diagnostic tape.
>What error message do you get when you try DIR DU0: ? If it's a
>"?DIR-F-Error reading directory",
I still get this one ...
>then you probably only need to INIT DU0:
>to make it usable.
.INIT Du0:
DU0: Initialize are you sure ?Y
?DUP-F-Size function failed
thanks,
emanuel
>Hi all,
>
>How can I format a rd54 disk on a rt11 5.3 ?
>
>(disk & floppy are on RQDX3 controller)
>
>Doing something like
>
>.FORMAT DU0:
>
>i get "device not supported, ...)
You need the ZRQC?? formatter on bootable XXDP+ media for your machine.
Do you have a RX50 floppy? RX33 floppy? TK50? RL02? RX02? I can
get you the formatter on just about any media... (it *should* have shipped
with your machine in the first place, but someone may have misplaced
the disks at least once in the past decade or so.)
Alternatively, if you have a VS2000, it has a RQDX3-compabitle formatter
built into it.
>P.S. Booting from DU1: works, so the controller & driver should be OK.
>Trying accesses to DU0: I see the LED of the disk drive on.
What error message do you get when you try DIR DU0: ? If it's a
"?DIR-F-Error reading directory", or a "?DIR-F-Input error", then you probably
do need to low-level-format the drive. If you get a
"?DIR-F-Invalid directory", then you probably only need to INIT DU0:
to make it usable.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Lawrence LeMay wrote:
>> What should I do? Am I ever likely to find a use for them if I take
them?
>>
>
>Hmm, If they are DSDD and in an external case, i would like to have one
>of those. Woudl you be willing to get one and ship it? I assume it
>would be relatively easy to ship since you say the original packaging
>is available.
>
Sorry, no external cases and I don't know what they are. These are specific
to 220v 50hz.
I thought S100 style machines had drives with 12v connectors.
>How can I format a rd54 disk on a rt11 5.3 ?
You can't.
>(disk & floppy are on RQDX3 controller)
>
>Doing something like
>
>.FORMAT DU0:
>
>i get "device not supported, ...)
Yep, because the FORMAT code doesn't truly know how to format an RD
series disk. The disks are formattable, but you must use the XXDP
diagnostic ZRQC??
>P.S. Booting from DU1: works, so the controller & driver should be OK.
>Trying accesses to DU0: I see the LED of the disk drive on.
The drive can obviously be referenced, but won't be usable until you
have it formatted.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>...This could get confusing eh - two Kevins.
>
I guess I have fully demonstrated just how confused I was/am. I have
just, once again, broadcast a private reply.
Here I sit day after day saying "that was a silly message to broadcast,
why did so-n-so waste my time by posting it? it should have been a
private message, blah, blah, blah,..." and so I go and do the same thing.
My apologies, but, oh what the heck...would so-n-so please use
better judgement deciding what should be broadcast and what should
be private messages. Thank you
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca
+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5
Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from
the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles.
Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers &
Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6
.
Hi all,
How can I format a rd54 disk on a rt11 5.3 ?
(disk & floppy are on RQDX3 controller)
Doing something like
.FORMAT DU0:
i get "device not supported, ...)
Any help ?
thanks,
emanuel
P.S. Booting from DU1: works, so the controller & driver should be OK.
Trying accesses to DU0: I see the LED of the disk drive on.
"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Any good sources for routine and/or user information about the Horizon?
> f'rinstance: what's the pinout on those 15 pin D "parallel" connectors?
> Any chance the signals are close enough to be cabled into a centronics
> style port? I haven't applied power to it yet; anything exceptional to
> watch out for?
Yeah. Fire.
I'm only half joking: Stan Sieler and I have had about the same
experience, which is that one of the tantalum caps near a voltage
regulator (connected between +mumble and ground on the input leg of
the regulator) turns into a noise, fire, and magic soot emitting
diode on first application of power to the card(s). As near as I can
tell, the cap shorts to protect the regulator from voltage, but I'm
a software weenie with a soldering iron so what do I know?
So leave the cover off after you re-insert the cards (you're going to
pull them to check the power supply voltages, right?), for that matter
make sure you leave some space between the cards when you put them
back in, and be ready to hit the switch.
ObTony: this problem is amenable to component-level repair. Clean the
soot off and replace the capacitor.
-Frank McConnell
This could get confusing eh - two Kevins.
How long have you been on the CCL? I'm delighted to know another
collector in Kitchener. That's wonderful. That makes 3 who will admit it.
Why don't you come to my "ware"house and see it. How about tomorrow
at either 10am or 1:30pm. It is easy to get to being near the corner of
King and Victoria.
Yours in good faith.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca
+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5
Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from
the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles.
Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers &
Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6
.
Hi,
Does anyone know what all the numbers on the backs of Intel Magnetics
bubble memory modules mean?
One of the three modules that I have has a penciled-in line separating
every 4th digit, so it looks like maybe some kind of address, but I
think the modules each store 128KB and 16 bits wouldn't be enough.
Besides that, I can't think of any use for address listings on the
modules.
e.g.:
09FHJ 8333 (<-- probably a date code)
FFF7BAFBFFFBFEBF
7BB3FFFBFEFBFBFE
FBFF7BF3DDBFDFBF
BFFFFFFDFDFFFFFF
DFFDFFFFFFBFFDFF
--
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
With the aid of a dedicated processor, this job is easy. Since the work is
already done, I can send you a zip file of the details and the required
code.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ott <jott(a)mastif.ee.nd.edu>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: at style keyboards and mc68000
>Hello -
>
>I would be interested in seeing this.
>
>john
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> ----------
>> > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
>> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>> > Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience...
>> > Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 10:49 AM
>>
>> > True. But AFAIK the AT keyboard host interface was never implemented in
>> > TTL (it always used a programmed 8042 microcontroller), so it's a
little
>> > harder to build from scratch.
>>
>> We used on our mc68000 boards a 68681 DUART & and some inverters as a
>> keyboard interface for xt/at. Was very simple. If anybody needs it, i
could
>> dig it out again.
>>
>> cheers,
>> emanuel
>>
>
>
>--
>
>***********************************************************************
>* John Ott * Email: jott(a)saturn.ee.nd.edu *
>* Dept. Electrical Engineering * *
>* 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * *
>* University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 *
>* Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * *
>***********************************************************************
>
Hi,
----------
> From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience...
> Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 10:49 AM
> True. But AFAIK the AT keyboard host interface was never implemented in
> TTL (it always used a programmed 8042 microcontroller), so it's a little
> harder to build from scratch.
We used on our mc68000 boards a 68681 DUART & and some inverters as a
keyboard interface for xt/at. Was very simple. If anybody needs it, i could
dig it out again.
cheers,
emanuel
<I used 5/8" plywood and 2x4 all around mounted vertically for extra
<support for the shelves. I would not use anything less. Try sticking a
<couple S-100 chassis on a shelf of 1/2" plywood or supported with less
Err... I've done it and 1x2 and 1/2" play do it real well and I do have a
few s100 crates.
<than a 2x4 and unless you have additional support in the way of diagonal
<cross-members or extra support underneath the shelf it'll bow or break.
<Maybe not right away, but with time it'll start to sag.
the trick is you box the underside of the shelf in 1x2 and put one down the
middle for support. then that assembley is screwed to a 2x4 at the corner
and a pair of diagonal braces on the back of 1x2 and side if needed. Use
wallboard screws to assemble rather than nails, they hold better.
<It saves much time to use steel brackets instead of cutting slots into the
<wood. I did my first shelf with the latter design and it took a long
What slots? It can be sone that way but it's not a required thing.
<If I had to do it over I'd buy pre-fab shelves like the Gorilla racks.
They are nice and all but the wood can be cheaper especially if you can
scrounge. Also wood can be configured for odd sizes like a 27" wide
space between the h960 and the window. ;)
Allison
Today I visited an NC machining establishment that is to close down soon.
There is an operating PDP11/23 there that I have my eye on.
Amongst the other accumulated stuff were 8 X Memorex 8" floppy drives, never
used and still in their original packaging. There were 2 models, 550 and
651. They are about 4" high and powered by 220v, 50Hz. The model 550's have
an edge connector while the 651's have a rectangular multi-pin connector.
The delivery documentation is dated in May 1977 and also listed
documentation and software that wasn't in the box I opened and is probably
missing. They were never used because they were bought in error.
What should I do? Am I ever likely to find a use for them if I take them?
Hans Olminkhof
Please ponder this question.
We either collect mainframes, minicomputers, or microcomputers. In the mix
there is hardware, software, documentation, spares, and related material
such as magazines, books, novelties. There might also be the original
boxes.
What percentage of your space is taken up by the hardware and how much
by everything else? What is the ratio of actual computers to all the other
stuff that goes along with them? Please tell me the catagory(s) of computer(s)
you collect (mainframe, etc.), and what your percentages are.
I am working on an article and also on the 2nd edition of A Guide, so your
estimates would be very helpful.
Thank you very much.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca
+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5
Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from
the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles.
Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers &
Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6
.
I would be very interested in the 11/34 rack with the two RK05's, and the
ASR33.
I have no interest in the 11/84, and while I am somewhat interested in the
8i, I already have an 8E so I should take a back seat to anyone who doesn't
have an 8.
I'm in Missouri, so Iowa wouldn't be that big of a deal for me. I would be
willing to tandem up with others and take a hand in getting the equipment
and splitting it up with other collectors. If anyone wants to get together
on this, just let me know.
I certainly meet criteria 1 through 3, and 4 as well if someone will partner
up with me for the drive and dissemination.
Jay West
-----Original Message-----
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Are you sitting down?
>--- Anthony Clifton - Wirehead <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have in my garage:
>>
>> (1) PDP-11/34 with RK05j and RK05f
>> (1) PDP-11/84 with RA80 and TU80
>> (3) PDP-8/I, one with high speed paper tape punch reader and
>> one with DECTape
>> (1) ASR-33 which goes with the 8/Is
>
>Nice set.
>
>> I would like these machines to leave my garage, preferably all
>> at the same time, and travel to someone else's place who has:
>>
>> 1. Enough space to give them a permanent home
>> 2. Enough time to restore and preserve them as they SHOULD BE
>> 3. Enough love for them to not turn them into some kind of weird
>> investment scheme for EBay
>> 4. ...and Enough money to bring an appropriately sized vehicle
>> with a lift gate to Des Moines, Iowa to retrieve them
>
>I suspect that many people on the list have number one, quite a few have
number
>two, a good many of us have number three, but number four is the kicker.
>
>I'm in Ohio and I'm not prepared to haul 4+ racks from Iowa (plus I already
>have an 8/i and some of the other stuff)
>
>> At any rate, I intend to only sell these to someone on ClassicCmp.
>> They will NOT appear on Ebay, Usenet or any other forum frequented
>> by people who are not necessarily collectors.
>
>Good for you.
>
>> The 8/Is are 3 out of a set of just under 4000 ever produced.
>
>Wow. I haven't looked up the numbers in Doug Jones' FAQ lately; I thought
>there were more of them made than that.
>
>> I'd like ideas, suggestions, etc. If anyone REALLY, REALLY wants these
>> and just know you have to have them, and you have the above
characteristics
>> and you have money, trades, etc. I'm willing to consider that too.
>
>Of all the systems you've mentioned, the -8/i with the DECtape is the only
>part that I would really want, partially because my only DECtape is a
>TU56/TD8E combo, and because I have always wanted to run OS/8 on my own
>-8/i, but I have no mass storage device for it (only high-speed paper tape)
>
>You are over 10 hours drive from my house, and I'm a lot closer than most
of
>the people on the list. It's a worthy goal, but to make a road trip from,
>say, California, would be an epic journey. If anyone from the East Coast
>is willing to make the trip, I could be interested in participating in the
>western leg of it.
>
>-ethan
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- Anthony Clifton - Wirehead <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have in my garage:
>
> (1) PDP-11/34 with RK05j and RK05f
> (1) PDP-11/84 with RA80 and TU80
> (3) PDP-8/I, one with high speed paper tape punch reader and
> one with DECTape
> (1) ASR-33 which goes with the 8/Is
Nice set.
> I would like these machines to leave my garage, preferably all
> at the same time, and travel to someone else's place who has:
>
> 1. Enough space to give them a permanent home
> 2. Enough time to restore and preserve them as they SHOULD BE
> 3. Enough love for them to not turn them into some kind of weird
> investment scheme for EBay
> 4. ...and Enough money to bring an appropriately sized vehicle
> with a lift gate to Des Moines, Iowa to retrieve them
I suspect that many people on the list have number one, quite a few have number
two, a good many of us have number three, but number four is the kicker.
I'm in Ohio and I'm not prepared to haul 4+ racks from Iowa (plus I already
have an 8/i and some of the other stuff)
> At any rate, I intend to only sell these to someone on ClassicCmp.
> They will NOT appear on Ebay, Usenet or any other forum frequented
> by people who are not necessarily collectors.
Good for you.
> The 8/Is are 3 out of a set of just under 4000 ever produced.
Wow. I haven't looked up the numbers in Doug Jones' FAQ lately; I thought
there were more of them made than that.
> I'd like ideas, suggestions, etc. If anyone REALLY, REALLY wants these
> and just know you have to have them, and you have the above characteristics
> and you have money, trades, etc. I'm willing to consider that too.
Of all the systems you've mentioned, the -8/i with the DECtape is the only
part that I would really want, partially because my only DECtape is a
TU56/TD8E combo, and because I have always wanted to run OS/8 on my own
-8/i, but I have no mass storage device for it (only high-speed paper tape)
You are over 10 hours drive from my house, and I'm a lot closer than most of
the people on the list. It's a worthy goal, but to make a road trip from,
say, California, would be an epic journey. If anyone from the East Coast
is willing to make the trip, I could be interested in participating in the
western leg of it.
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
At 07:41 AM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Please ponder this question.
>
>We either collect mainframes, minicomputers, or microcomputers. In the mix
>there is hardware, software, documentation, spares, and related material
>such as magazines, books, novelties. There might also be the original
>boxes.
>
>What percentage of your space is taken up by the hardware and how much
>by everything else? What is the ratio of actual computers to all the other
>stuff that goes along with them? Please tell me the catagory(s) of
>computer(s)
>you collect (mainframe, etc.), and what your percentages are.
>
>I am working on an article and also on the 2nd edition of A Guide, so your
>estimates would be very helpful.
>
>Thank you very much.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------
>Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca
>+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5
>
>Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from
> the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles.
>
>Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers &
>Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6
>.
>
I collect home Micros and live in a 1BR apartment. Most of my computer
apparatus is in my BR but there is some overflow into the LR like my TRS-80
M2, 3 of the huge HDDs, and peripherals and disks, and where I also have
other non-comp. electronic equipment. Fortunately I have 12' ceilings.
Docs and disks take up around 50 sq.ft.x 10" on shelves and in a filing
cabinet.
Monitors and terminals take up about 42 sq.ft.x 1' on top of my
full-length former dresser.
A row of creatively stacked desktops and printers is around 48 sq ft in
front of that.
Racks and cabinets with computers, peripherals, parts and test equipment
take up another 50 sq.ft.x18"
Workbench and primary computers and equipment occupy about 30 sq.ft.x3'
under the shelving.
Wasting no storage potential, the space under my bed is also occupied, mainly
by periperals. Another 24 sq.ft. You do the mathematics. xxx cu. ft.
Do I wish I had a garage ? Hell yes !!
But a museum-workspace would be much better, even if it meant grubby budding
JDs got to mistreat them.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
On or about 09:21 PM 6/3/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail was caught in a dark alley
speaking these words:
[snip]
>This is still insane. Visit www.tucows.com and download the programs that
>Windows should have come with in the first place, instead of the
>brain-dead schlock you get with a stock install.
I've only used the "schlock" when absolutely necessary; i.e. at a friend's
house w/o an Internet connection to download something better and that's
all he has. Nonetheless, IIRC the original question was "how do I get this
shit to work," not "what works better than this shit." With that in mind, I
hope my original suggestions were helpful.
>Or, if you want, I can send you a copy of ProcommPlus for DOS that works
>under Windows. Its my old trusty friend. Easy to use, easy to configure,
>solid.
I've not worked with ProcommPlus for DOS, but IMHO the Windows-based
version was less than ideal. [that's diplomatic speak for "it really sucks."]
For a windows based solution, I've had excellent luck with NetTerm.
*Everything* is configurable, it's very small, extremely fast, has a
built-in FTP Daemon (tho that's a bit tricky to set up -- it takes some
playing to get it right & secure) and works not only with direct comm
lines, modems & the like, but also works with the Internet for telnetting
as well. For me, it's an all-around solution.
Or, like you failed to quote in my original message,
--------
Or, do as I do: grab your trusty Tandy 200 with the attitude of "Screw
WinBlows - this works better!"
--------
As always, YMMV, but my mileage is great!!! ;-)
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
=====
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch(a)30below.com
SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers
===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: =====
Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know?
Ok, I asked my resident family lawyer a few questions concerning the
recent computer privacy debate and here's what he had to say:
I asked:
Say you buy someone's old computer from them and it contains their
personal data that they forgot to delete. Say its really personal stuff
(love letters, sexual fantasies, journals, etc).
A) do you "own" that data?
B) are you free to do with it as you please?
C) can the original owner sue you for anything if you publish that data
(like sell it to the National Enquirer?)
And his replies:
A) do you "own" that data?
It goes to the intention of the parties. I don't think that the seller
intends to sell private information only the computer.
B) Are you free to do with it as you please?
No, you would be liable for any invasion of privacy.
C) can the original owner sue you for anything if you publish that data
(like sell it to the National Enquirer?)
Yes.
--
Sorry if these questions were rather simplistic. If anyone has some
better questions to ask then send them to me and I'll forward them along.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 05/25/99]
hello,
if i use scanrite to scan a hardisk with bad sectors, will the bad
sectors remain or get repaired? With some other programs, everytime i
scan the number of bad sectors get doubled...
please reply to me
shoeb
I don't think there's much risk of that. Besides, they have to email me to
know where to send the $$$. I doubt this occurred to you, eh, Sam?
-----Original Message-----
From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
>On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
>> This isn't exactly what you're discussing, but . . . I've got, in my hand
an
>> S-100 board, not fully populated, silkscreened
>>
>> "North Star Computers, Inc.
>> Z-80A Processor Board Z80-A2"
>>
>> I'll send this jewel via USPS Priority mail, as is, to the first person
>> whose $3.20 I get in the mail to cover mailing.
>
>That doesn't make sense. What if 20 people take the time to send in
>$3.20? Sure, I know how you always gripe about people who say they want
>something and then don't follow through, but this solution is not good.
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
>
> Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 05/25/99]
>
Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words:
>But how do I lobotomize that silly "HYPER-TERMINAL" app in Windoze95 to
>convince it that I do NOT want it to dial, wait for carriertone, etc.?
I've found the best way to force HyperTerminal to do this is tell it to
dial a stupid number like "876" and when it starts out to dial, just click
cancel. it knocks you back to the terminal screen, but leaves the
connection to the com port open.
Or, do as I do: grab your trusty Tandy 200 with the attitude of "Screw
WinBlows - this works better!"
Hope this helps,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
I am selling an 11/45 out of the rack for US$150.
Please contact me for details if you are interested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca
+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5
Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from
the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles.
Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers &
Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6
.
This isn't exactly what you're discussing, but . . . I've got, in my hand an
S-100 board, not fully populated, silkscreened
"North Star Computers, Inc.
Z-80A Processor Board Z80-A2"
I'll send this jewel via USPS Priority mail, as is, to the first person
whose $3.20 I get in the mail to cover mailing.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
>> > > And I need to bring up a terminal, or configure
>> > > something to function as a terminal.
>> > A PC with comms software is nice as you can use the logging feature to
>> > save scribbling notes as you bring it up.
>>
>> Except that it adds a few minor additional interfacing variables. If I
>> get NOTHING, would I assume that it's a problem with the N*, or could it
>> be configuring of HYPERTERMINAL? I think that the FIRST step, that of
>> getting a character or two through, would best be accomplished with the
>> simplest terminal available. I have a lunchbox machine; I should see if
>> it has a working serial port, and try something like PROCOMM.
>
>Having recomended a complex piece of test gear in another message, here
>I'll recomend something simple that I wouldn't like to be without - a
>'Christmas tree' type RS232 tester. One of those little in-line adapters
>with red/green LEDs on the major lines (TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR,
>CD).
>
>If I am ever bringing up an unknown machine which uses a serial terminal,
>I stick that on the port in line to whatever terminal I am using. Then I
>can tell if the machine is trying to send something as the TxD (or RxD,
>as appropriate) LED will flicker. Of course it'll also tell me if an
>unknown port is a DTE or DCE, and will help sort out handshaking problems.
>
>Although I have a lot of other RS232 test gear (several breakout boxes, a
>comms monitor, etc), I use this more than all the others put together.
>
>If you want to make one, all it consists of are those 2-colour LEDs (red
>and green diode in antiparallel) with 2 wires in series with a 3k
>resistor (3k3 would also work) between the above mentioned signals and
>Signal Ground. But they're pretty cheap to buy ready-made.
>
>-tony
>
Wouldn't you know it, I've got a non-functional pair of Expandorams as well. the first is an Expandoram, the second is an Expandoram II. Both were fully functional when I packed them in their wrappings some fifteen years ago, and boxed them but I think the switches may have gotten fiddled-with in the course of cleaning them. The memory IC's check out. Does anyone have doc's on the required settings?
thanx
Dick
>Please ponder this question.
>We either collect mainframes, minicomputers, or microcomputers. In the
>mix there is hardware, software, documentation, spares, and related
>material such as magazines, books, novelties. There might also be the
>original boxes.
>What percentage of your space is taken up by the hardware and how much
>by everything else? What is the ratio of actual computers to all the
>other stuff that goes along with them? Please tell me the catagory(s) of
>computer(s) you collect (mainframe, etc.), and what your percentages
>are.
I mostly collect DEC hardware -- easy since I worked at DEC for 20
years and was able to partake of DEC salvage when it was open. In
recent months I've started collecting in different directions, mostly
just things which strike my fancy. I can't say that I am trying to
collect any specific type of machines (other than the DEC ones), just
random examples of computers.
As for how much room it takes up... let me put it this way, my S.O.
and I live in one condo, my computers live in another (and I visit to
feed and water and work on them). The largest of the machines are the
pdp-11/10, pdp-11/34a and the pdp-8s. They may only take up 24sqft
of floor space, but they are 6' high, so they take up a fair amount
of volume.
I must say, however, that most of the stuff which takes up room are
all the boxes of manuals, handbooks, disks, spare boards, cables,
etc. that I have to keep them working.
So, I would say in my collection, about 30% to 40% of the space is
taken up by the actual machine collection, the rest is taken up by
the support stuff.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Does anyone here have experience with AT&T 3B2 300 hardware/software?
I apparently have a pile of doc and software which is in complete disarray.
The software is all on 5.25" DSDD diskettes, and i'm not even sure if
i have what i need to format and reinstall an operating system. Does
anyone know what type of hard drives these computers support, or know
if the floppy drive can be upgraded to high density?
I have two base systems, one has either been cannibalized, or merely
every screw has been removed, since everything from the power supply
to the floppy drive is floating free in the case ;) The other unit appears
to be in much better shape.
The student chapter of ACM at the university here had these, so you can
imagine what sacrelige may have been comitted...
-Lawrence LeMay
lemay(a)cs.umn.edu
One of my dealers sent the following to his mail list. I thought this group
might be interested. Please contact him directly.
Paxton
We have an enduser client that is selling the following MV3100 systems.
They need an offer as soon as possible. (FOB Michigan)
QTY Part# Description
9 dv-470m-b9 MicroVax 3100/80
4 dv-31eta-a MicroVax 3100
3 dv-31btb-a MicroVax 3100
2 dv-31ct1-a MicroVax 3100
2 dv-31rta-a9 MicroVax 3100/95
10 vs48k-aa VaxStation 4000 VLC
*systems are complete, but we have no description of memory configurations,
hard drive sizes, etc., (licenses may become available, but if you are
interested, bid if no licenses are included)
** part numbers and descriptions provided by enduser - you may want to
verify
Contact:
Bob Frischkorn
Network Management Corp.
440-285-8400 or email netman(a)netman2000.com
If you are interested please contact Jim:
clmoving(a)jetnet.ab.ca or phone 780.594.7566
Jim told me it is working, has printer and disk drive, and THE ORIGINAL
BOXES.
Yours in good faith.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca
+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5
Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from
the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles.
Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers &
Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6
.
Hello,
recently I acquired a pdp11/70 in semi-working condition, but alas,
documentation for the console board was not included :/
Anybody here who is in the lucky position to make me some scans/copies, or
maybe someone knows where I can find 'em in digital (scanned) form ?
Thanks in advance,
Erikb.
Peroidically I do this in hopes of...
I have an IMSAI IMP48 SBC. It was given to me 20 years ago but not the
docs. I'd be interested in finding docs for it even if only a copy.
Allison
<> Please ponder this question.
<>
<> We either collect mainframes, minicomputers, or microcomputers. In the mi
<> there is hardware, software, documentation, spares, and related material
<> such as magazines, books, novelties. There might also be the original
<> boxes.
<>
<> What percentage of your space is taken up by the hardware and how much
<> by everything else? What is the ratio of actual computers to all the othe
<> stuff that goes along with them? Please tell me the catagory(s) of comput
<> you collect (mainframe, etc.), and what your percentages are.
<
<This is not an easy question to answer...
I collect SBCs, S100 and small dec systems (Robin, Pro, DECmate, pdp-8,
PDP-11, VAX) and the occasional odd (unusual) PC.
How much space, 150sqft room is cubed out. Also three steel racks plus
floor space(roughly 500cuft) in the garage. By actual count some 50
(may have missed a few) systems total. All but a small few are operable
or in use.
The key is that I collect a mix and if they have anyhting in common they
were the systems I drooled over when to were far to expensive to have bought
them all new.
Allison
Well . . . it seems to work, now that I've fiddled with the broken jumper
wire. The wire was broken but the insulation wasn't, and it was done so
neatly, I couldn't initially believe it was a user-installed jumper wire.
Now that that's done, I can put it in the "works" box . . .
Thanks for the help.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: VECTOR GRAPHICS 64K DRAM Card - switch settings?
> Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> Would anyone be able to help me with this VECTOR GRAPHICS 64K DRAM BOARD's
> switch settings? The signals seem to be OK, but no data propagates from
> the thing. I'm not anxious to count through the combinations of
> settings.
According to the schematics for the Rev-3 board, S1 is the Bank Select with
positions 0 - 7 (or probably labeled 1 - 8) corresponding to D0 - D7. D0 -
D7 go through 74175 Quad D latches and come out on the Not Q outputs. These
are then all anded together (U41 - 74ls30) to output the Bank Select signal.
Hmmm, interesting, it looks like the inputs are left floating when the
switch is open, and I have a hard time believing that with LS type
circuitry.
There is a note indicating:
Jumper Memory Enabled
1 to 3 0000h - FFFFh
5 to 3 0000h - DFFFh
4 to 3 0000h - BFFFh, E000h - FFFFh
2 to 3 0000h - BFFFh
Would anyone be able to help me with this VECTOR GRAPHICS 64K DRAM BOARD's switch settings? The signals seem to be OK, but no data propagates from the thing. I'm not anxious to count through the combinations of settings.
thanx
Dick
Well . . . I'm going through all these piles of S-100 boards, see, and I put
the working ones in that box over there, see, and then I put the ones that
don't over in this box.
I've got this Jade Memory Bank and don't seem to have the doc's for it any
more either. . . and it has THREE switch blocks along with over a dozen
jumpers . . . it even seems to have an IC missing. . . .
Does anyone of you guys have any detailed doc's on this one?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Brens <ebrens(a)dds.nl>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: DEC pdp11/70 console docs
>
>> documentation for the console board was not included :/
>
> ^^
>Hello again,
>
>by "console board", I actually meant the front console panel (the thing
>with the switches on it).
>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Erikb.
>>
>
I have a friend (Yes, Virginia, I have two friends) who's been a DEC
repairman for many years. He now wants to get rid of the accumulated a lot
of stuff in his barn, and has asked me to help get rid of it.
I'm not sure I have the time to make a complete catalogue of all his stuff.
Anyway, I know squat about big iron, and therefore don't know what's
valuable to people.
Please, therefore, email me with your wants -- anything from, "I'll take
anything" to "keep an eye out for this widget". I have no idea what he wants
for all of this, bit I doubt he's out to gouge.
manney(a)hmcltd.net
pgphoto(a)ragemail.com
P Manney
"Y1K caused the Dark Ages."
Thousands of discounted photo items at http://www.hmcltd.net/pgphoto
-----Original Message-----
From: Colan Mitchell <cdrmool(a)interlog.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:37 PM
Subject: confidential info on old harddrives.
>
>If this is a ? thats been dealt with before I joined the list my
>apologies.
> I repeatedly come across personal and confidential information on
>discarded computers. I sit and shake my head in shock. Lawyers seem to
>be the worst. I have considered contacting the original owners and
>educating them about practicing safe hex but, especially in the case of
>lawyers and women, don't want to have them freak out and think I'm being
>weird and calling the police. On the other hand I feel that I should do
>something. In the end I just format the drives and forget about it.
> Has anyone experienced contacting an original owner? What was the
>response. This is something that I've not read about in the media as Y2K
>and Hackers get all the press but I suspect this is a bigger potential
>problem.
>
>
>Colan
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi
> > Let me see, that is 384 machine pin sockets in 2102's alone.
> > Do you have a special discount that you might share?
>
Sorry to butt in, but I have a suggestion.
I use collet pin carries, these are metal carriers with machined
pins attached to them. You solder them on the board, remove the carrier,
then you have 16 nicely placed machined pins free standing. This allows much
easier inspection of the final solder joint since you don't have a plastic
dip case in the way, I buy them by the 1000 at about 5 cents each (14 pin
carriers, but you can get them any size) and that satifies all my socket
needs. If I need 16 pin,20 pin or 40 pin (rare) sockets I simply remove the
pins from a couple carriers and manually solder them. Also works well for
transistors, caps, resistors or what have you.
steve
>
> What percentage of your space is taken up by the hardware and how much
> by everything else? What is the ratio of actual computers to all the
other
> stuff that goes along with them? Please tell me the catagory(s) of
computer(s)
> you collect (mainframe, etc.), and what your percentages are.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
.
Kevin,
I collect both micros and minis.
I'd estimate that a microcomputer constitutes about 40% of the bulk. The
documentation, software, and other pieces would account for the remaining
60%.
For a mini, the computer with necessary peripherals (drives, etc...)
probably account for about 80% of the bulk. Documentation, backup media,
and other stuff taking the remaining 20%. Often times, the "other stuff"
can be kept on top of the mini without impairing it's function. That
generally doesn't work with a micro.
Of course, I don't have the original shipping containers, pallets or
packing material for a mini. That would skew the numbers a LOT! :-)
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
If this is a ? thats been dealt with before I joined the list my
apologies.
I repeatedly come across personal and confidential information on
discarded computers. I sit and shake my head in shock. Lawyers seem to
be the worst. I have considered contacting the original owners and
educating them about practicing safe hex but, especially in the case of
lawyers and women, don't want to have them freak out and think I'm being
weird and calling the police. On the other hand I feel that I should do
something. In the end I just format the drives and forget about it.
Has anyone experienced contacting an original owner? What was the
response. This is something that I've not read about in the media as Y2K
and Hackers get all the press but I suspect this is a bigger potential
problem.
Colan
Has anyone ever tried ProComm?
It's a DOS terminal emulator that I use on an old Zenith SupersPORT 8088.
Here's the different terminal that it can emulate:
VT-100
TVI 920
TVI 950
VT-52
LS ADM5
HEATH 19
ANSI-BBS
ADDS VP
WYSE 100
IBM 3101
It's a pretty useful program, and doesn't take up too much space. I have it
on all of my old laptops.
///--->>>
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
I find myself without the necessary doc's to rewrite the BIOS for a system
using a small in capacity but 8" in size HDD. Would any of you kind and
resourceful souls have the necessary data on hand to help me out with this
task?
Thanx
Dick
The point about the "best piece of equipment" is perhaps the thing I like
best about using a logic analyzer for a difficult problem. It's such a pain
to set up, it forces you to think through the analysis before making any
measurements . . . or assumptions. Another nice feature is that you can
rearrange the displayed waveforms without rearranging the probes. If you
choose to see a signal set differently than you previously did, you don't
necessarily have to redefine your trigger equations or any such fun.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re[6]: More Bringing up a CPM
>> On the subject of LA/scope/logic probe/voltmeter. I personally
>> consider a LA as the shot gun approach. It will often find
>> problems when one has no idea where to look. The only problem
>
>I can't agree with that. OK, so a logic analyser will monitor a lot of
>points at once, so you can test unrelated sections in the hope of finding
>the fault. But when you've got 64 or 128 or whatever traces, you still
>have to think about the fault.
>
>> is that someone with an oscilloscope can often have the
>> machine repaired by the time one gets the leads connected
>
>I've found that a small logic analyser (say about 3-4 channels),
>intellegently used, is very useful. It doesn't take long to connect it
>up. And it will tell you a lot about the circuit you're investigating.
>
>> I rarely use a logic probe because I don't have one. I
>> can use an oscilloscope just as well with the additional
>> features that an oscilloscope can provide when needed.
>> It is like a logic probe with more added.
>
>You _need_ a LogicDart :-)
>
>> Still the best overall trouble shooting tool I have is
>> an analog voltmeter. I can move quicker with one of these
>
>I agree. I use my old analogue meter a lot more than a digital one. It's
>a lot quicker to read an analogue meter for one thing.
>
>> than many can with other tools. As far as I'm concerned,
>> DVM's are only good for setting power supply voltages.
>
>Oh, they are also useful for setting voltage references on analogue
>subsystems. And checking the exact setting of a variable resistor (when
>you want to change it to (say) 3 time the value as an inital point in a
>modification).
>
>> I have one ( an accurate 5 digit unit ) but the analog meter
>> is still the first thing I reach for.
>
>There are 4 instruments that get most of the use on my bench. In order :
>
>An analogue VOM.
>The LogicDart
>A good bench PSU (30V, 10A). Useful for powering up subsystems
independantly
>A cheap handheld 'scope, audio band only. Useful for checking for PSU
>ripple, looking at motor drive waveforms, SMPSU waveforms, etc.
>
>
>> I find that most don't know how to trouble shoot. The
>> sequence is simple but many still don't get it:
>>
>> 1. Observe symptoms
>> 2. Make predictions
>> 3. validate predictions
>> 4. If predictions do not pan out add this
>> to the observed symptoms and go back to step 2 or 1.
>> 5. Repair bad part.
>>
>> I find that most don't understand the importance of steps
>> 2 and 3. They try to go from 1 to 5 and usually it doesn't
>> work. Step 2 does require that you understand what to
>> expect from each kind of failure.
>
>My method is related to that...
>
>1) Look for silly faults (cables fallen out, etc). Check fuses, etc
>2) Unless there's a very good reason, power up and observe the fault
>3) Do some standard checks. Check PSU rails, master clock, etc
>4) Think of possible causes for the observed symptoms
>5) Do tests (either execute commands or make measurements) to check out
>each possible cause.
>6) If no possible cause is the cause of the fault, you've missed one of
>the possible causes.
>7) You now know the bad part.
>
>The best piece of 'test equipment' you can have is a brain. _Always_
>think about the fault before trying to cure it. Often I make some intial
>measurements and then sit and think for maybe an hour before doing
>anything else.
>
>-tony
>
please see embedded comments below:
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 5:18 PM
Subject: Re[2]: More Bringing up a CPM
>"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
>--snip--
>> The logic analyzer won't hide significant information about the logic and
>> timing. If you sample at twice the frequency of the fastest harmonic you
>> want to observe, you won't miss a thing.
>
> It is not just frequency issues. Levels can be a problem as
>well. I've seen circuits with mixed HC, LS, 4000 and other.
>You set the input for one and the other is wrong. Also,
>your 2X has to be twice the frequency of the response
>of the IC circuit and not just twice the clock speed.
>Also, the 2X sampling rule is only true for repetitive
>signals. This is a basic sampling law thing.
>100 Mhz isn't really fast enough to truly see what is
>going on in even an old 8080 processor board. Glitch
>catching helps but can still hide correct operation.
> Where I currently work, we are completely out of the
>ball park were current day LA's are of much use but
>that is another problem. We still have them and can,
>under limited conditions, use them.
>
I can assure you that you won't run into much CMOS circuitry in the old
IMSAI and Altair stuff. You're right, of course, if your instrument can't
be programmed to handle different thresholds then you could be persuaded you
see something you really don't, or perhaps be swindled out of seeing what's
really there. I remember looking at some new CMOS circuitry about 15 years
ago when the high-speed CMOS stuff was still new. It appeared, for all the
world, as though the outputs preceded the inputs of a series of gates by
quite a difference. I had set my 2467 display to the lower threshold of a
cmos schmidt trigger and displayed a couple of other signals with respect to
that, including the clock which triggered a sequence. It appeared that the
'Q' of a flipflop preceded the clock by quite a margin, perhaps 3-4 ns. We
quickly concluded that a sufficiently long chain would easily allow us to
read tomorrow's stock quotations today, thereby making us all rich. - - -
it didn't work that way!
The way I get around the random sampling error in observing a crystal driven
microprocessor circuit is that I use a little PLL to multiply the clock on
the board by some constant, say 4, 10, 16 or some such, and sample at that
rate as opposed to what the LA wants to use. That makes similarly long
pulses look similarly long as opposed to suffering from the temporal
distortion introduced by the asynchronism between the LA sampling clock and
the circuit on the board under observation.
Of course, like a 'scope or signal generator, you have to know how to drive
them, just as you must know how to interpret the results. The LA often
points up where to hook the 'scope. If it cuts my search through 60-70
signals down to half a dozen, it's made itself worthwhile.
I find the LA really handy for MCU-driven cirtuitry, since I can use the LA
to take a picture and then spiff it up and print it in the O&M manual.
What's more, with easily simulated FPLD's, it's really handy to compare the
simulation with what the LA sees. It's often quite heartening to see what
you thought you ought to see after working on one of those babies for a
couple of weeks.
In any case, I've troubleshot dozens of DRAM circuits with either the little
front-end sampling mux or a real LA, and have found them to be invaluable in
finding component failures, incorrenct jumpering, wrong delay lines, etc.
What's more, if I didn't make the mistake, I can prove it. If I did, I can
prove I fixed it. That's worth quite a bit of setup.
As far as frequency is concerned, the only problem I've encountered which
doesn't quickly show up on a LA display is metastability. As fast as things
run these days, and with the widespread use of fully synchronous circuitry,
almost everything goes into a device through a two-bit shift register stage
to mitigate metastability. I find that if I sample at twice or quadruple
the clock which drives the pipeline registers, I can catch everything I
need.
Those old circuits like the IMSAI and ALTAIR CPU circuits relied quite a bit
on circuits' propagation delays to build events. Races were common, and
that's why folks used to tack 20-400 pf caps all over those boards in hopes
of making them work better.
Like I wrote before, setup and interpretation is slow, painstaking, and
laborious. It's often wrong the first time. Unless you have half-a-dozen
similar boards to work on, it's hardly worth the trouble.
--- I8ABoogar(a)aol.com wrote:
> I have Two in great condition
What's the microprocessor? I used to have one of those when I was a kid. My
father might still have it in the attic (I know he has a box of those sorts of
things, but I don't know the exact contents, and he's several states away).
I recently saw a Mattel Baseball game at a Hamfest, but I've never seen the
Football for sale.
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
<I can't agree with that. OK, so a logic analyser will monitor a lot of
<points at once, so you can test unrelated sections in the hope of finding
<the fault. But when you've got 64 or 128 or whatever traces, you still
<have to think about the fault.
I'd also point out that if the LA in not connected into the system
correctly it can by virtue of ground loops and other things like the leads
actually induce problems. Seen that occur to people. same for scopes too!
I'm not saying they are bad but for some stuff you can end up looking for
the forest between the trees. the best example was a multibus design bring
up another engineer was doing and the board didn't do what was predicted
and of course it was surrounded with scopes LAs and even probes... the
problem...
8086 asm
MOV AH,Ah ( was supposed to move the immediate value x0A to
register A high byte!)
Them trees can hurt when the land of you.
Allison
<A Z80 will give useful patterns executing continual 00 (NOP, so the
<address bus cycles through all of memory) or FF (RST 38, so the stack
<builds down to fill all off memory). Both should provide useful patterns
<on DRAM control lines.
Indeed they do. If you want to force a pattern, the inbound bus buffer can
have pins lifted (if socketed). There are pleny of tricks before getting
out the "big guns".
For the cannons for ants set I do have a S100 Bus debugger that was use use
the phrase purpose built. It's a Logic analyser that has 4 leads floating
and 32 (address and datain plus data out) and a riot of controls so that
it's possible to do a bus level logic analysis and it has 16kx40bits of
2167 55ns ram to take a extended picture of things. I built it to deal
with the quad processor system as there were a lot of signals running.
<Like Allison I used to work almost entirely with a logic probe and a VOM
<(and a brain, which is the most important 'instrument' of all :-)). I had
<a good logic analyser, which saved me a lot of time on occasions, but it
<wasn't that convenient to use.
I have a 16 channel LA and two good scopes but often as not if I poke and
think as Dwight sugggested I rarely need to drag them out and set them up.
The most common use for the LA is craking "black box" devices and chips.
<I rarely use a 'scope for computer (digital) repairs. It's essential for
<analogue work, fixing SMPSUs, etc. But I don't find it _that_ useful on
<typical non-repetitive digital signals.
Depends, very handy for looking at some timing problems and general bus
havoc.
<Don't bet on it. I've lost count of the number of misdesigned (often
<subtly - like marginal timing or ground bounce problems) DRAM cards that
<I've had to sort out.
Those cards never worked, as in they often were unreliable or at best a
question. S100 cards generally were either solid or sick to my expereince.
It may have required running them for a day or two to see that they were
not good 24x7 designs.
<Also, a logic probe won't detect _some_ chip failures. You've got a 2
<input NAND gate. The logic probe shows nice pulse trains on all 3
<connections. You think it's OK and move on. What it hasn't told you is
<that one input does nothing, and the gate is a simple inverter on the
<other input. Yes, I've seen exactly that fault.
Same here, bad inputs are tough to shoot, though a chip clip (16pins 16
leds) does help here.
Allison