- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi william: In a message dated 7/2/99 11:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aw288(a)osfn.org writes: > As one who has spend quite a bit of time in industrial environments, I > would say that MIS department was a bunch of Bozos for not getting > industrial machines. Basically ANY floppy that spends its life at a > loading dock is going to die very quickly, followed in short order by the > power supply and keyboard. Bozos, to say the least. But do you think that a bunch of mainframe guys in 1988 would listen to a lowly PC person? Besides, the IBM guys told them the PCs would be okay, and they had already spent $20 per unit on those plastic prophylactic keyboard skins . . . ;>) After IBM replaced the drives with units which had the flap, they only croaked once a year instead of every three months . . . and always in the middle of reading disk three of a five disk software upgrade which I had sent them . . My most entertaining project ever. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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DC Power supply question...duh...

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 7/2/99 6:47:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Actually, a Williamson is a single-channel amplifier Man, I've _got_ to stop posting messages in the middle of the night, when I'm half asleep (as I am now ;>) A lot of Taiwanese jive, is what it boils down to. After playing around with a pair of "200W" speakers today, I'd estimate about 2.5W RMS per channel. > I don't own any such speakers, or indeed, a soundcard. Never seen the need for > > one... Me neither, except that I use the soundcard to transfer programs to cassette for use on my Timex/Sinclairs. > What I am asking for is _any_ kind of justification for the modern kind > of watt... The modern watts sell speakers. Our customers like to hear "big numbers," and don't have a clue as to what those numbers mean or how to verify them, whether it's in reference to watts, MHz, bps, RAM, cache, or disk storage. The box says 200 watts, and people like the look of them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ;>) Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:50:16 +0100 (BST) ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >Please remember that this list is international. And that not all of >us have well payed jobs, or even jobs at all. I couldn't consider >spending twice my _annual_ income on an Altair. Heck, I have to stop >and think before I spend my weekly income on common 8-bit micro. It won't belong before this condition will exist in the States as well. >> > IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the >> > equation. Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic >> > tools, and a little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm >> > upset that the 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >I think what a lot of us are saying is : > >At one time classic computers were cheap. Anyone could buy them _and_ >they weren't worth buying as an 'investment'. The only reason to buy >them was because you were seriously interested in the machines. Thank You. I *knew* there had to someone out there who actually understood my point. It dosen't surprise me it was someone outside the US. >> Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >> collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have >> seen it happen in two related instances. > >As I have said before, Valve radio/audio was ruined for me when I >could no longer get an old set for a few _pence_ at a jumble sale. The same fate awaits many of us here in the Classic Computing community. Since many of you seem convinced that there is nothing that can be done, I shall publicly discuss this issue no further. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 10 months

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pdp11 schematics

by jbcqc＠qcunix1.acc.qc.edu

Do these exist, and if so, where can I get a copy (buy or xerox)? -- joe comunale /url> www.qc.edu/~hn8qc Queens College/OIT /off> 718-997-5919 unix/asst Sys Mgr /fax> 718-997-5678

25 years, 10 months

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OT: A call to arms (sort of)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<What we need is the "Open Hardware" movement. What is Open Hardware? It is <a set of specifications for a computer and an interface system that anyone <can build processors, I/O, or accessories for without owing any taxes to <anyone. Or an older SS50, s100, Multibus, STDbus, Qbus, unibus, Omnibus, eurobus... system. < <However, ideally, this "open architecture" needs a bit of software already <available for it to get the movement off the ground. I suggest that the <PDP-11 could be that architecture for several reasons: < 1) It has lots of software available for it. < 2) It can be expressed in a single modern FPGA so processors < can be "home built" < 3) It has some pretty easy to use busses defined for it (Q-Bus, Unibus) Why roll your own when there are plenty of them cheap to free. Special hardware could be handy like a good IDEinterface or a really cheap SCSI. <Alternatively one could go with something like SPARC (which Sun alleges is <open but I have my doubts) Too highend. Allison

25 years, 10 months

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OT: A call to arms (sort of)

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Q: Name the one thing that Classic Computers have that modern computers lack? A: Adequate documentation to write your own system level software on them! What we need is the "Open Hardware" movement. What is Open Hardware? It is a set of specifications for a computer and an interface system that anyone can build processors, I/O, or accessories for without owing any taxes to anyone. However, ideally, this "open architecture" needs a bit of software already available for it to get the movement off the ground. I suggest that the PDP-11 could be that architecture for several reasons: 1) It has lots of software available for it. 2) It can be expressed in a single modern FPGA so processors can be "home built" 3) It has some pretty easy to use busses defined for it (Q-Bus, Unibus) Alternatively one could go with something like SPARC (which Sun alleges is open but I have my doubts) Comments? --Chuck

25 years, 10 months

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PC form factor

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<>As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, <>orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. < <That makes sense, except for the board mounted vertical. Why that? If the fan fails convection flow is helpful. Actually vertical with airflow from bottom to top works well. Allison

25 years, 10 months

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Fwd: Dec DELNI, and doc's

by Mzthompson＠aol.com

Anybody interested in these, please respond to him directly. Mike >Subject: Dec DELNI, and doc's >From: John Isenhour <isenhour(a)uiuc.edu> >Date: Fri, 02 July 1999 09:50 AM EDT >I have a DEC DELNI that I no longer need, if this is something you could >use make an offer. >Also new set of VMS manuals (not the grey wall but the newer one's that >fit it a box - I'll have to look at version) free to good home for >shipping.

25 years, 10 months

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Local bus schedule

by mranalog＠home.com

A couple of people mentioned the SS50 bus, but they should have also mentioned the SS30 bus because they go together. Other well known micro buses not mentioned would include the TRS-80 Model 1 expansion bus and the 50 pin Sorcerer S-100 expansion bus. Some of these micro buses also have different versions. The S-100 bus was used (and IMHO abused :) for about 7 years before it was locked down to a standard. There is an extended Benton Harbor Bus which is easily identified as a double row of pins, instead a single row of pins. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog(a)home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ====================================================

25 years, 10 months

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Surplus finds

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Today, having the day off, I went Surplus crawling, over to a place I used to work at in the late 70's. It has shrunk from those wonderful days, but a lot of Stuff remains nonetheless. I found a Teletype 33ASR with a full roll of paper tape left in it, and a Wilson Labs MWX-1000 SMD disk tester/execiser. I had to pay more than I thought the Wilson box was worth, because it 'looks cool' and they thought it would make a nice movie prop... which I guess it would. *I*, on the other hand, think it would make an even nicer SMD disk tester, so I rescued it. Aside from some bits and pieces, I saw nothing worth taking home, save for a DEC Punch/Reader in a rack that got smashed, wedging the unit so I couldn't get to it, though it looked to be in good shape other than the rack rails being bent. I know where it is, if someone is looking for one, I could go back and pry it out of it's nest. Now to blow the warehouse dust out of the Teletype and get it working... Cheers John

25 years, 10 months

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PC form factor

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear <right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they <borrow this design from someone else? I don't think it was borrowed as much as there are few choices when you put most of the meat on one card. Packaging hardware is an older art than the PC. Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling. Allison

25 years, 10 months

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Keyboard repair parts?

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? Any good mail-order stores? Anyone remember the makers of the keyboards, switches, and/or key caps and color names? (I remember that Cherry made the TRS-80s keyboards.) ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

25 years, 10 months

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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

Those perforations which many people ended up using for an additional speaker were actually intended as a feeble attempt at encouraging airflow through the vertically mounted cards. Those, if you remember, were full-length back in those days, and because of that fact would have benefitted had there actually been enough pressure difference between outside and inside to cause the air to flow substantially. IBM had people who were really worried about noise, hence wouldn't put a meaningful fan in the box. That little thing in the PSU (which dies more often than any other single component in any PC) won't move enough air to cool things much. It will move enough air to load everything in the box with dust, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 2:36 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor >> Ah, yes, the airflow issue again. What would you change to improve >> airflow? > >As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, >orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. > >Allison >

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 5:07:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Admission time... I have quite a collection of home computers as well, Ha! I _knew_ it!! ;>) >> Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? > No idea. In fact I didn't know we did Must just be the ZX Brits I usually hang around with . . . > Hmm... Unix came out first on a PDP7, but later versions ran on the > PDP11. I am not sure where C came in all this, but there are certainly > PDP11 versions. > I've never heard of either fitting on a PDP8. See -- I told you I was ignorant of these machines . . . > BTW, you can get a license from SCO for the old PDP11 unices (source code > :-)) for $100 for home use only. Nice to know they're still available. $100 seems fair. Anyway, thanks for all the great information re large computers. For years I've read about them and used code which was developed on them, but I've never seen or touched one. Any tips on where to stumble onto some of this gear, other than just hanging around universities, waiting for them to throw something out? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. The concept of easily installable expansion cards on an open bus with I/O connectors in the rear did evolve there, though not in Apple's products. Several companies saw the light and put connectors on the back of their Apple computers using a separate bracket. IBM saw the problem that caused once your computer got rather full, since each card so equipped would require, essentially, two slots. The Apple-][ had its supply on the left and had no internal drives. I don't remember whether the Apple III had internal drives. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: PC form factor >Hi, >I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear >right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they >borrow this design from someone else? > >--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power >

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

I agree with this one! There's no need for a "starter-outer" regardless of his/her current station in life to go after an Imsai or (much worse) an ALTAIR, when those machines weren't that well designed and weren't that well supported. If one wants to start out with an S-100, he should get hold of a widely used, common and therefore likely to be inexpensive, mainframe, or at least backplane, then do the same for known-to-be-compatible memory, CPU, and controller cards, a power supply, and a terminal or PC with a working terminal program and a couple of 8" floppy disk drives. Unfortunately, the presence of the PC with its virtually plug-and-play (chuckle) readily available boards and the MAC with it's even less difficult to set up peripherals, have led the world to believe that devices should just naturally play together. Anyone who's worked with DEC equipment knows that isn't true. Once upon a time, I worked for a DEC-addicted client whose system required redundant PDP11-44's. The DEC folks would deliver the hardware on one day, set up the first rack the second day, get the basic hardware to run on the third, and then one or two days at a time, get the rest to work together. Then there was the second rack . . . Now, even though the two machines had been specifically ordered to be "identical in every way" at a considerable premium, it was not unusual for the DEC folks to have to swap each rack in its entirety several times before they actually had two from which you could extract a board and exchange it with the corresponding board in the other and not have both machines fall apart. Usually, while this was happening, the other 30 or so of us were in day-for-day schedule slip. On the S-100 bus, there were lots of board which worked just fine together. Unfortunately, there were others which did not. The earlier the vintage, the less likely that they'd be particularly interoperable with other manufacturers' equipment. This applied as much to backplanes and serial port boards as to CPU's, memory and FDC's. If a beginner has a few fairly widely used boards, it's likely he can get some help from the guys on this list or from the fellows in the CP/M newsgroup. If he has an Altair, that number is greatly reduced. Nonetheless, if a fellow has an Altair, that's normally the one he wants to get running, irrespective of the associated problems. Suggestions abound, of course, but solid help from experienced users is scarce because there weren't many. What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he used the stuff when he was a pup, or if his father had one. What I read here, however, is mostly stuff from people who have gotten a few pieces of gear for next to no money and expect that since they've got the "big" bits they won't need to spend much more. Unfortunately, that's seldom the case. I read lots of prose from people who've got lots of pieces of lots of systems but haven't a clue what, exactly, is necessary in order to make any of the stuff "do something." Why do you suppose this is? Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things >> cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for >> most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > >It may be alot for someone starting out, sure, but then someone starting >out might not want to go for the cream. That might be aiming just a bit >too high. > >> As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this >> hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's >> starting to change. > >For starting? No. Despite all of the talk about the $510 Mac, there are >bushels of machines that are in the under $50 category - some pretty darn >nice ones, too. This seems to be like the press reporting about >multi-million dollar personal injury lawsuits - they really are rarer >than hens teeth, but the newspeople make it sound like it happens all of >the time. There will always be very affordable classic computers - only >the creme will go ballistic. > >William Donzelli >aw288(a)osfn.org

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi, >> P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) > >You should be. It's an interesting machine. Just be warned that >microcoding is addictive... You've certainly piqued my interest.... :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

25 years, 10 months

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Keyboard repair parts?

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 7/2/99 8:07:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, arfonrg(a)texas.net writes: > > Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? > Any good mail-order stores? > I have some old keyboards. What are you looking for? Paxton

25 years, 10 months

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subscribe

by estechmann＠abivest.com

-- Eric Stechmann Direct: +1 (651) 234-1217 Software Critter Fax: +1 (651) 490-1484 American Biosystems, Inc. E-mail: estechmann(a)abivest.com 20 Yorkton Court URL: www.abivest.com St.Paul MN 55117 The program said "Requires Windows 9* or better" so I bought a Macintosh.

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Scott: In a message dated 6/30/99 7:04:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scott(a)saskatoon.com writes: > > Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was > > available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler and > > machine code -- at home? > > VIC-20. I bought mine for $600CDN in either 1981 or 1982 (not sure) My point exactly -- in '82 $100 US was no sweat, but $500 US was more than I could afford. So, my choice, again, was crap computer or no computer. > I hope this doesn't really sway the argument either way. I'm really > neutral on the subject. Some people collect PDP-8s, some people collect > what's 'popular', as for me, I'm still looking for a VIC-1540 because I > could never afford one back in the early 80s. And some of us are sentimental old fools who just collect for purely sappy reasons. In Feb '99, I hadn't seen or thought about a Timex/Sinclair for 13 years. One day I found the manual while cleaning out a closet (computer long since lost or given away). I did a web search and was _floored_ to find an intensely active international user community still supporting these critters. This led me to another discovery: development of the ZX81 platform continues. Examples are: bumping the tape transfer rate from native 300 bps to 4800 bps _using_software_. Efficient BASIC and FORTH compilers. Hi-res graphics utilizing non-volatile memory (the ZX81 inventor, Sir Clive Sinclair, repeatedly stated that this was impossible). IDE hard drive and floppy drive i/fs. RAM expansion to 1 MB. I.e., developments by users which go completely beyond what was originally imagined by the makers of the ZX81. Sincere question: is this also the case with the larger machines which are being collected/restored? Has anyone figured out how to connect (for example) a Snappy to a PERQ? No disrespect intended, as I have nothing but admiration for folks who take the huge amount of time & trouble to revive a PDP-8 or 370, but it appears to me (and I'm new here, so don't clobber me too badly) that "big" classic computer collectors take pride in returning a machine to its original condition, whereas the ZX81 crowd is by and large more interested in "how can I make this thing act more like a 'real' computer." Anyway, when I began to collect them, I had no idea they were "popular." > Also, back to the question above, I think by 1982 we might also have had > the Atari400. The C64 must have been around this time too. Probably the > Coco as well. Really, 1982 is pretty close to the start of the 8bit > explosion. CoCo I'm not sure of (without checking), 400 & C64 yes. But, all of these sold for many times the cost of a ZX81. Additionally, none of the above have that perfect wedge shape, which really does make a perfect door-stop. ;>) Regards & thanks for your input, Glen Goodwin A Fledgling Collector 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Commodore Equipment Available

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Thanks Dallas, I have forwarded this to the classiccmp mailing list, for those Commodore enthusiasts. Anyone interested, get back to me or Dallas and we will hook you up with the originator, Otto Brandt. Kevin At 07:33 PM 99/07/01 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Kevin .. a forwarded message which you might be interested in: > > >>From : Otto Brandt >To : Dallas Hinton >Subj : Log-off comment > >Would you or anyone you know be interested in Commodore equipt, eg >1571, 1581 floppies, wide carriage printer, CBM 128, color monitor mostly >working (some keys and contacts might have oxide problems due to lack of use) >I am asking for a friend >Cheers, Dallas > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

25 years, 10 months

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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's quite correct. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID plan exhausting air >from the PC and drawing air through all the front-loading devices, e.g disk drives, etc. That prevented a nice sensible filtering scheme like many people have implemented by adding a fan to the PSU after reversing the fan that's in there. They sandwich a filter between the fans to offset the head loss due to the filter. This keeps the power supply components much cleaner, as well as keeping the dust from settling so quickly on internal components. The cooling is substantially improved and the dust accumulation is decimated. All this extends the life of not only the power supply, but the active components in the PC as well, as the heat transfer is more efficient when laminar flow at the component surfaces isn't hampered by dust most of the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor ><I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear ><right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they ><borrow this design from someone else? > >I don't think it was borrowed as much as there are few choices when >you put most of the meat on one card. Packaging hardware is an >older art than the PC. > >Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling. > >Allison >

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<get running, irrespective of the associated problems. Suggestions abound, <of course, but solid help from experienced users is scarce because there <weren't many. Even then the suggestions would involve mods that some may be too timid to undertake. Altair in the s100 realm is the worst first machine to tackle. The IMSAI is a stable machine next to it. <What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he <doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of <hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he It's called clue impaired, they assembled a PC and they like you said think S100 or maybe a Straight -8 should be trivial as it's from the dark ages when they didn't have complicated stuff. <Why do you suppose this is? If you have a good answer, write a book. ;) Personally I believe it's a total lack of knowledge and therefore they don't have the first clue many of the early hobby machines of the altair ilk were "engineers toys" or at least damm sharp techie types that werent afraid to read a few books. Look at COMP.OS.CPM and you have someone looking for z80 data in electronic form, one wonders if a library is near his home. I will not speak of the damage done by the unknowing that cant solder either or think a hotter iron will help the solder stick. Allison

25 years, 10 months

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FW: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170)

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

If anyone feels like helping this fellow out, please reply directly. Thanks! -=-=- <break> -=-=- On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote: >>From: Dennis Mulleneers <dennis.mulleneers(a)wxs.nl> >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc >>Subject: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170) >>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200 >>Organization: Planet Internet >>Lines: 20 >>Message-ID: <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC(a)wxs.nl> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: mt0385-2.dial.wxs.nl >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Trace: reader3.wxs.nl 930860130 3815417 195.121.189.129 (1 Jul 1999 20:15:30 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: abuse(a)wxs.nl >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 1999 20:15:30 GMT >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i686) >>X-Accept-Language: en >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-ge.switch.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.unisource.nl!gate.news.unisource.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:436 >> >>Hi there, >> >>I'm looking for some parts to restore some old IBM PC's (for my >>collection)... >> >>IBM 5155: >>- original screws (those blue colored internal screws) >>- original backplates (6 pcs, to cover the holes of the exp. slots) >>- TWO ORIGINAL 5.25" inch diskdrives (360Kb Half Height. I tink they're >>black) >> >>IBM 5170: >>- original screws to close the case (the five big hexheaded ones) >>- original cork "feet" for the case >>- also about 7 pcs of the backplates to cover the holes of the exp. >>slots >> >>I hope someone can get me these things.....TIA >> >>Dennis :-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hey Hans! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:56:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes: > P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside > technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained, > but cheap C-5 You really know your Sinclairs! A C5? Really??? I'm too old to push the pedals when going uphill . . . BTW, thanks for the nice defense of the Sinclair line and its international clones. Did you know that a Spectrum clone is still being manufactured in Russia? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by edick＠idcomm.com

sounds like a quote from me . . . the mouse I got back in '82 or so was, in fact a SUN mouse. It used TTL levels rather than RS-232, but the optical pad was the same I was later used to seeing at the SUN workstations. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:25 PM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# > > >Glenatacme(a)aol.com wrote: >> >> > I was given my first Mouse Systems >> > Optical Mouse back in '82. >> >> That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it >> on Ebay: >> >> Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse > >I understand the optical pads for the Sun Mouse Systems mice are somewhat >difficult to find. Is it possible the pads are the same?

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PC form factor

by edick＠idcomm.com

I was acquainted with a couple of guys from the Niwot plant (IBM) who were temporarily assigned to BOCA for the PC development effort. The company actually gathered quite a number of hobbyists to see what information they could get from them. Apparently they didn't listen too well. Back in '81, when the PC came out, it was pretty widely believed that IBM had gotten the form factor for its cards and the notion of packaging for I/O in the way they used from the Apple-][. It (Apple) was, after all, the most successful single company in the personal computer market and seizing a major share of the desktop market. Their approach wasn't a bad one from the I/O convenience standpoint. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 9:09 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty >> > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the >> > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. >> >> I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty >> much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance >> since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it >> does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind. > >Acually, there are rumors abound that IBM modeled the PC after the >successful Apple ][. But, rhey are just rumors and anecdotes passed >around like those in Dick's message. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] >

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Richard: In a message dated 7/1/99 7:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com writes: > I was given my first Mouse Systems > Optical Mouse back in '82. That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it on Ebay: Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hey Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 5:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > I started on an MK14. It took me many years to figure out that darn > manual. And the hardware design was somewhat clueless (hint : A 74157 is > a multiplexer. A 74175 is a latch. Using the former as a latch is > possible, but not a good idea if you want to avoid timing problems. Guess > what this machine did...) What's really amazing about the MK14 design is that the original, which Clive bought from one of his buddies, was never used. Your MK14 was in fact designed by National Semi. They convinced Clive that it would be cheaper and more efficient if the kit used more NS components, and they offered to provide the design free, if he signed an exclusive contract. Glen Goodwin 0/0

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IBM 5150 XT

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation Yes, a hell of a lot more than current hardware does. < 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is <compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? likely. < 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess <EGA, but don't know. That would be CGA. Pick up a copy (old one if possible) of the QUE publications _Upgrading and Repairing PCs. Most of the editions were very IBM centric and useful as reference. I keep a 3rd ed. for looking up connectors, drives and the like. You have better luck fining it in a library or used book shop than on the WWW. Allison

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State of the Hobby

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off a <> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that wa Aas someone that placed that order asap back when, that was several months savings! the new ford truck (F250 4x4 pickup) was only $2700. and it would take weeks to make it do something. later more money to replace the damm S4Ks with 88MCDs and again with seals 8k static. <Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are <not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. or worse they havent a clue what is important save for a few names. <> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. Th <> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a <> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, an <> terminal cost $750. When? In 1977 it's was more like(8080 or z80/2mhz) $399 by 1979 it was 299 and 4mhz z80, 81 a cpu board had z80b ram, rom serial and floppy at $599. hard to compare apples and oranges. <Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is <faster, for $35. I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less <than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for <under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? cost of technology has dropped without question. My first SRAM was 1uS 1101 part (256x1) at $9.95, a bargan then. Later it would be 2102 at $16.00 a pop. Now 16mb is $16! the funny twist is if I wasted to make a s100 card around said 16mb dram it would still cost $$$. Allison

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

See embedded comments below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:08 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. >> >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for >> considerably less than it cost when new. > >It's called "inflation". Look it up. > Nope, Sam, once again you demonstrate your proclivity to yack before you look. Inflation would make the current price HIGHER. That's why a $1 item, so priced in 1967, costs over $3 today, and, in some cases, >$4. Perhaps you need to look it up. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, >> even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for >> significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even >> on eBay! > >Would you buy a 1967 model Beetle for what a 1999 model costs? > If, as is the case with many "antique" computers, it is, in fact in better condition than when it was new, having been properly assembled, all the routing errors on the PCB corrected, and proved running. If it had been as well preserved as may computers I've seen dating back to then, I'd probably say "yes." Naturally, the fact that nothing built in Mexico with the shoddy quality control standards they must have to use to get anything from their assembly lines approved at all, makes me wonder whether I'd want one of the new ones at all. In '67, I bought a VW beetle for just under $1300. They cost significantly more than that here in the US, but I was in Germany. If I encountered one in like-new condition, in like-new state of wear, with all the features intact, it would probably never be offered for anything nearly so low as the '99's. > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >> in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm >> presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, >> functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and >> shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, >> estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and >> shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost >> of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. > >Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are >not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. > >Still, your price comparisons are nonsense. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The >> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a >> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a >> terminal cost $750. > >Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is >faster, for $35. > I don't doubt that. Most anyone else could buy them for the normal market price of $22. Nevertheless, what would you have to pay to get an 8" drive today? The 3.5" drive may be better, but can't read 32-sector hard-sectored media very well. Nor can it read the venerable IBM 3740-formatted diskettes which were standard distribution media for CP/M. > > I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less >than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for >under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? > >P.S. It would be nice if you'd edit the superfluous quoted reply out of >your message before sending it. Bandwidth is a precious commodity in >third world countries. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] >

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for a given item. To them, I sell what I can. In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a terminal cost $750. If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >This will draw alot of flames, and may upset certain people. >Please send personal attacks to me directly. > >On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:38 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> >writes: >> Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in >> so many senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals >those >> of much more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the > >> hobby begins to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our >fundamentals. > >But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >of the science. > >> Lately, there has been a disturbing trend towards isolationism and >> elitism among our flock, up to and including outright hostility. This >has >> got to stop. > >Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >'marketplace' >is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >of the computing hobby. > >> Now, as Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here. >> As much as anyone else, I'd like a world full of retired aerospace >> engineers with garages full of free Altairs. I'd also like the IRS >> to abolish my income taxes and give me a free Ferrari. It's just not >> going to work that way, folks. > >You hit a raw nerve here, buddy boy. I don't *want* garages of free >Altairs (or whatever). All I want is to be able to purchase the material > >that is of interest to me at a *reasonable* price. Now the retired >Aerospace >Engineer thinks he can make a fortune off his old computers. Piss. > >> Lashing out at people who want to publicize our hobby is like >> sitting in the nosebleed section of your hometown baseball stadium >> and hoping to god that your team loses big so you can afford better >> tickets next year. > >This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >>From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > > >> Get OVER it. Nobody understands our hobby, it's next to impossible to >> properly insure, > >Insure. Huh, yeah right. Why would you want to insure something unless >you spent BIG BUCK$ on it? > >> there's far too little real museum space devoted to >> classic computers, > >Whaddaya mean by 'real museum space'?!? You mean like in the Deutsche >Museum? The LA Museum of Sci & Ind.? The Guggenheim?!?! Tell ya what. >When these 'heavies' get real serious about computing engines built >during *my* lifetime, I'm outta here. No way I'll be able to afford it >then. > >> hundreds of historic pieces are being tossed in the >> dumpster every day, > >As tragic as this situation is, ss long as the possibility for this >exists, there will be hope for the hobbyist with little or no money >(this includes *most* of our young people). > >> and you want to keep the whole thing a big in-clique secret. >> Does this make any freaking sense to you? > >Yes. This hobby is what it is because it was populated almost >exclusively >by what I will refer to as 'true believers': Guys with little (or no) >money but alot of patience and a solid *commitment* to make the machines >live. > >Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >> Every time I hear somebody say something like, "Are you going to >> sell that to a REAL collector at a decent price or are you going to >> WHORE it on EBAY?" I just want to gag. > >I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >> Amazing as this may seem, the people on eBay deserve this stuff as >> much as you do, mr. nose-in-the-air elitist. > >Maybe they do. But they have the money; many of us 'tribesmen' don't. >It seems you've mis-applied the 'eliteist' label, in this case. > >> Oh sure, who wouldn't want to buy the thing at a token "collector >price" >> and save a bunch of money, but don't make the seller feel like an ass >> because he wants to participate in a free-market economy. > >We can't stop folks from auctioning off stuff on e-bay; that's their >right. ALl I know is, is that prices are going up, and e-bay isn't >helping the matter. As far as I'm concerned, E-Bay is hurting our >hobbyist 'way of life', not enhancing it. > >> And quit calling the people on eBay "morons". OK, sure, the guy who >> bid $510 for the "signature Macintosh" was a few cans short of a >> six-pack, but if you bothered to follow up on the auction, you'd notice > >> that most of the bidders pulled out once they caught a clue. And > >I try to ignore some of the stupidity on this planet. Fortunately, >there are still (for the moment) plenty of cheap MAC's to go around. > >> everybody who pays what YOU consider a high price for a genuinely >> interesting piece of hardware is not an idiot. People pay money for >> something because they want it. So, you're basically upset that >> somebody wants it more than you do? > >SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >like that. > >IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >> And while we're at it, what's with all this "some rich bastard >> overbid me" crap. If I went through all the classiccmp posts about >rich >> executives, rich internet IPO participants, rich employees of big >computer >> companies, and replaced all the occurrences of "rich" with "black" or >> "hispanic", the vintage computer festival would look like a Klan rally. > > >What can I say? This used to be a 'poor mans' hobby. I'm seeing one >segment being displaced and disenfranchised by another. Yep. > > "I'm the *angriest* computer nerd in America!" > >> America has always stood for a place where anybody can get rich if they > >> work hard enough. Are you upset that somebody else got there first? > >No, I'm upset that there is the pretense of a level playing field. >It *was* nearly level at one time. It isn't anymore. > >> There is a lot of assumption that, when someone pays a high price for >> a classic computer, that they A) don't know as much about it as you >> do, and B) don't care as much about it as you do, when the reverse is >> probably the case. Look, just because you refused that job opportunity > >> at Apple in 1983 because you thought the Lisa was a bomb and your >> business selling print drivers for daisywheels was doing so well, >> DOESN'T mean you're an idealist. > >All it means is that you were a little short-sighted. > >> Because somebody outbid you doesn't mean they deserve it less than >> you do. Maybe they have more cash, maybe they were just willing to bid >a >> higher perecentage of their income than you were. Heck, somebody with >cash >> probably is going to care for the item better. A good percentage of >> the purported idealists complaining about high classic computer prices >> have an Altair on their kitchen table with coffee mug rings on the top. > > >Gosh darnit, you got us there. Us pore folk generally don't have the >the fancy display and storage facilities as do our more well-heeled >bretheren. But then again, for us, these are objects of affection; we >like to keep them close to us (the kitchen or livingroom seems >appropriate). > >> Look, I'm impressed that you're reading this post through a custom >TCP/IP >> stack that you wrote for a Kaypro II. If you did that for the fun of >it, more >> power to you. If you think that doing your daily correspondence on a >dot >> matrix printer makes you a better classic computer collector than the >rest >> of us, that's something else. > >It doesn't make us better, just more joyful. > >> It's like that guy who coated the entire exterior of his 1952 >Oldsmobile >> with tiny rhinestones over a grueling 5-year period -- impressive, but >> the man obviously had too much time on his hands. > >But if it's something special to *him* isn't that part of what this hobby > >was (is) all about? > >> It is NOT necessary to have a Wozniak beard, live in a geodesic dome >> house, and drive a Volkswagen Thing to appreciate classic computers. > >Maybe not, but the way it's going, you'll have to be able to afford >the aforementioned house, and a *mint* example of the aforementioned >car before you can even *consider* having a classic computer for your >yourself. > >> Wake up, open up, embrace the world's coming to know our hobby. > >True believers only. Sorry. Greed and commercialism are threatening to >corrupt our 'society'. Maybe there's nothing we can do about it, >but we won't go quietly. . . > >> Because otherwise, one day you're going to wake up and find that not a >> single schoolchildren remembers any of this history, because somebody >> started making 6800 assembler coding an entrance requirement to the >museums. > >True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Peter: In a message dated 7/1/99 10:58:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk writes: > Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused > by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. Sorry to hear it. 95 OSR2.x is actually a bit more stable than the earlier versions, so if you're running something prior to 2.0 you may want to upgrade again (can't believe I'm saying this . . .) People with (relatively) stable Win 95 PCs come into our shop every day wanting to move to 98, and when we ask them why they don't have an answer . . . this is a good indication of the mindset of the average PC user . . . > I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software > I > need to use for it. They'll be here soon, we hope . . . Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Megan: Thanks for the note. I've written tons of code to interface PCs with "big" computers, but I've never had the opportunity to see any of them. Cool site! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:26:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mbg(a)world.std.com writes: > Check out the -8s on my collection page to get an idea of size (of > systems with peripherals -- remember, the cabs are 6' high). > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html Glen Goodwin 0/0

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Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy.

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Hello all, Goodwill had a $20.00 grab fest yesterday and I snagged a haul including a bunch of Apple //e's, IBM Xstation 120, Atari 800 and a TRS-80 M4. Problem: A //e, Trs-80 M4: some of the key caps are broken on these, anyone know where I can find replacement parts? Atari 800: not broken, just missing the #8 keycap. Any clues for replacement? IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? The Socrates toy: I found one... I vaguely remember it from some years back... I gave it to a couple that seemed to want it badly. What is it's collectable significance? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

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PC form factor

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they borrow this design from someone else? --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't expect sympathy from any evolutionists . . . the inability to continue in life or in any other pursuit is simply a response to the need for certain characteristics. In this case, income. If your income fails to keep up with the cost of your hobby, you have little choice but to get another hobby . . . or perhaps a job which pays better so you can forestall the same extinction event a bit. It's not fair to expect the universe to look out for you personally. It's not the way of things that YOU or I, for that matter, get to set the price of commodities on the market, else I'd set the price of gold really low when I planned on buying and really high when I planned on selling. It won't be long before you, like others on this list expect not only to get things for no cost, but you'll soon want to be paid for taking them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:23 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >> its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >> No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >> of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >> of the science. > >I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on >this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as >a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly >everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least. > >> Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >> 'marketplace' >> is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >> of the computing hobby. > >Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles". > >See below for the explanation... > >> This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >> >From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >> who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >> lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >> accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > >[...] > >> Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >> they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >> know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >> a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us >actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather >open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what >they have for sale. It is basically advertising. > >> I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >> of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >> soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix >G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just >about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost >four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books, >clocks, whatever. > >Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are >buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making >good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be >making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good >like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are, >a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about >for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's >face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry. > >> SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >> a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >> It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >> like that. > >This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead >of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that >make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets >decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted >something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse. > >> IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >> Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >> little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >> 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it >happen in two related instances. > >Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested >in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military >radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but >the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can >back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric >205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well, >free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets >started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you >about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these >price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how >collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics >took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept >thru in school. > >There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that >many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick >money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The >dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand >good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money >because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a >big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F >warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead? > >In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people >that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of >collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their >artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun" >and having a super collection is that people expect them to be >authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge >increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets >more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that >the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare is >basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or computers. Most like >to "show off" more than just what they purchased. > >In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes, >and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes >you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate. > >> True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >> committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >> make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >> of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > >Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get >to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? > >*no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians. > >William Donzelli >aw288(a)osfn.org >

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: > This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. PLease, hear me out on this . . . > I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer > hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is > generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled > and functional) condition for significantly less than what it > cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and 'hopelessly out of reach'. > The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group > were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated > dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not be in the future . . . > Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may > seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for > a given item. To them, I sell what I can. No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby afterall; so . . . > In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned > off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and > that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy > bar. As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's starting to change. > I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of > packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the > alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for > the shipping. Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. > The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, > a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the > same, and a terminal cost $750. Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they > were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could > understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at > auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component > are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 > Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go the same way. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 10 months

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DC Power supply question...duh...

by af-list＠lafleur.wfi-inc.com

I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a fool..." I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? Aaron

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

see below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero(a)cgocable.net <jpero(a)cgocable.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:08:44 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > >> Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and >> get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 >> including a nice 17" monitor. >> >> Dick > >Please snip off excess text while replying. BTW whoops 256K for a >PII? U mean 256MB? > I do indeed! Sorry . . . rented fingers (lame excuse) . . . > >:-) > >Wizard

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#

by edick＠idcomm.com

I just have to be contrary, here. I was given my first Mouse Systems Optical Mouse back in '82. That was before either the Lisa or the Mac. I don't exactly know what the giver thought/wished I would do with it, but there it was. I was using CP/M at home and office though we did have an MS-DOS machine. If attention hadn't been called to the mouse by that time, I doubt someone would have given me one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# >> > I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the >> > Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by >> > the Macintosh. >> >> Objections! >> IMHO Windows was _not_ influenced by the mac - at least not >> at all before 3.x, and not heavyly before 9x. Let me explain: > >I wasn't implying a technical influence. Just that the Mac brought the >mouse to the public's attention. And thus PCs had to get some kind of >mouse/GUI. After all, the GUI on the Alto is very different from that on >the Lisa, which is very different from that on the Mac (at least as I >remember them). > >In any case, Windows 3.x was an important step. There were _very few_ >(that I remember) third party applications for Windows 1.x or 2.x. In >fact those versions of Windows tended to come bundled with whatever >applications needed them (I remember installing Excel on a PC in about >1988 and it came with a run-time Windows 2.x IIRC). > >But Windows 3.0 appeared (to the user) as a different PC operating system >(yes, _I_ know it was built on top of MS-DOS, but...). Now you could get >point-n-drool programs for this OS on a PC. > > >> The picture might look like: >> >> The Mouse ------------------------------; >> | SideKick -'-> Windows 1.x/2.x -;-> MS Win 3.x -;-> MS Win 9x >> | ,-> GEM -' | >> Alto -+-> D machines -> Apple Lisa -> Original Mac -'----------> MacOS >7.0 -'-> ... >> | | Close similarities >> +-> PERQ > > >OK, I can certainly accept that. > >All I was really commenting on was the fact that the Lisa attracts a >price out of all proportion with it's significance. The PERQ and >D-machines are important as well, but those don't tend to sell for $5000 >or whatever. > >> No, me'n either, but maybe the impact of the PC had been different - >> these computers did pave the road to use other systems more willingly >> not just by order of ones boss. > >I would be _very_ supprised if most of today's PC _users_ (as opposed to >programmers, hackers, etc) started out building a ZX80 19 years ago.. > >> P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) > >You should be. It's an interesting machine. Just be warned that >microcoding is addictive... > >-tony >

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

The phrase "prices...out of reach of people who can handle these machines" sounds like you don't consider anyone with money to be technically competent. I'm sure that's not what you meant... right? Kai -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin [mailto:max82@surfree.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 3:10 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: State of the Hobby I agree that this is not a legitimate thing over which to become angry, but there is an issue that this is driving the prices up, out of reach of people who can handle these machines, and into the reach of people who want to encase them in plastic and put them into their 500 sq.ft. living room. This is causing some hostility. --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

25 years, 10 months

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Free Stuff! Xerox Printer/Terminal Manuals

by rigdonj＠mailhost.intellistar.net

Hi, Does anyone want a copy of the Operator's Guide for the XEROX 630 API/API ECS Printer/Terminal? I also have a orignal Operator's Guide for the XEROX D 25 Printer. Joe

25 years, 10 months

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Data General/NeXT/Philips

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Can anyone point me at some sources of information on Data General, NeXT and/or Philips (minis). I'm looking to round off my collection by adding something from one or more of these product lines but know little about them so I don't really know what to look out for. In particular I've heard mention of a DG MicroNOVA which sounds like it might fit the bill in terms of size. TIA. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 6/29/99 6:14:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tony Duell writes: > This means the history of computing is being distorted. Truely important > machines are being forgotten. Other machines, much less significant, are > being remembered. This is not a good thing. > > OK, let me ask a very simple question. I will give below the > specification of 2 machines, both from around 1980. The questions are : > Which do you think is the more historically important, and which one > would fetch a higher price (Oh, and would anyone care to name the 2 > machines :-)) > > OK. Machine A : > > Processor : Custom 16/20 bit CPU. Graphics processor. Z80-A for I/O > > RAM : 1Mbyte > > Storage : 8" floppy disk, 24Mbyte hard disk > > Keyboard : Full QWERTY keyboard, Keytronics > > Display : Bitmapped display, 768*1024 pixels (portrait monitor) > > Mouse : Sumagraphics Bit Pad 1 > > Languages : Pascal, LISP, etc > > Comments : Version of the first commercially-sold graphics workstation > > > Machine B : > > Processor : Z80A > > RAM : 1Kbyte > > Storage : Sockets to connect optional audio cassette recorder > > Keyboard : QWERTY membrane keyboaard > > Display : Text (22*23 or something like that), block graphics. Disappears > when program running > > Mouse : You must be joking > > Languages : 4K ROM containing strange (integer only?) BASIC. > > Comments : Very inexpensive home computer Machine B is very obviously a Sinclair ZX80 or ZX81. Pardon my confusion, but are you saying that the ZX80/81 was "much less significant?" Perhaps I misunderstand. Millions of people worldwide were introduced to computers by these machines (and their Timex cousins). Because of the low price, people bought them to see if they "liked computing" -- if not, they could throw them away and only be out $100 or so. On the other hand, many, like myself, found they had a small talent for working with computers -- in whatever capacity -- and thus found employment, careers, and satisfaction because of their initial experience with Timex/Sinclair computers. > I think that if you own a classic computer you should learn how it works, > how to use it, how to repair it, etc. Note, I am _NOT_ saying that you > have to be qualified (after all, I'm not). I am not saying that you have > to know everything before you start. I am saying, though, that you should > want to learn. The TS computers' simple but clever architecture encouraged learning all the "how to's" you mention above. But, perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying . . . So: what are these two computers? Which is the most historically important, and, in your opinion, which would fetch a higher price? BTW, I use my Timex/Sinclair computers for some purpose at least five days out of seven. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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DC Power supply question...duh...

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

A well designed PSU will go into "thermal" shutdown, where the heat produced by the pass transistors is detected and the PSU shuts down until they cool off. A poorly designed PSU will go into "smoke" shutdown, where the transistors release their blue smoke and then never work again. The worst thing about the latter case is that when the transistors go into thermal avalanche mode they cease operating according to specification and the output of the supply could literally become nearly anything up to and including the unregulated DC input from the rectifier (probably 23 volts in this case) --Chuck At 02:03 PM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >Just out of curiosity, what >could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the >load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type...

25 years, 10 months

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What is a Sirius?

by peter＠joules.enterprise-plc.com

Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? Regards Pete

25 years, 10 months

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DC Power supply question...duh...

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, first of all, the linear type in that range aren't inexpensive . . . Switchers are cheaper. That's why the use them so much. All that would happen is that your voltage would drop out of regulation because the ripple would cause the input voltage to be too low. I'd be not the least bit afraid to try it. It probably won't break anything except maybe the fuse on the supply. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)lafleur.wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: DC Power supply question...duh... >Thanks, everyone who answered. I think I'm going to spring for another PS >that I know is rated for the full 12 amps. Just out of curiosity, what >could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the >load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type... > >Thanks again, > >Aaron > >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a >> > fool..." >> > >> > I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than >> > 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple >> > math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this >> > PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? >> >> In theory, yes. >> >> DC power = I.V. So 180W at 15V is, indeed, 12A. >> >> However, that is taking the '180W' to be the output power of the supply. >> In many cases, the 180W is the maximum power it will consume from the >> mains. And as power supplies are not 100% efficient, you don't get out >> all the power you put in. In fact, the efficiency might only be 50% >> (particularly if it's a linear PSU), so you could only draw 6A from it. >> >> I'd probably not take more than that from it, unless I _knew_ it was >> designed to stand it. >> >> -tony >> >

25 years, 10 months

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1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I think you have that backwards, sir. The present value of the 1975 dollar is $2.95, not the other way around. This is clearly just a misstatement, as you've interpreted it correctly in the subsequent statements of present value. This implies that when eBay facilitates an auction of an old Altair for $3000 it's $2500 lower than what a new one cost. That's not so bad, considering that the original was probably not built up and not functional. I note that the last one I saw for sale there hadn't even gotten a bid from $3k to start after 4 or 5 days. It would appear the guys who buy these aren't all totally stupid out there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, >and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. > >One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration >years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) > >Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, >cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent >of $5546 today. > >An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 >today. > >Kai > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:45 AM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: State of the Hobby > >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the >intervening years. > >Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to >fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. > >>I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 >each, > >Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to >remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer >equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows >how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes >a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of >resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the >"nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping >and packing seems to exceed the street price. > >- John

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote: > At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 > each, Hmm... Whatcha got? I'm looking for an 8" drive that I can attach to a PeeCee to read/write my old disks. I do have a 1/2-height drive that came with a DataRAM PDP-11 clone (along with an ST506 interface that emulates an RL02, but with no docs). Do you have any +12v/+5v 8" floppies, or only 24v-motor ones? > Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to > remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer > equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows > how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes > a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of > resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the > "nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping > and packing seems to exceed the street price. The general trend I've seen is 10% of MSRP at five years old, 1% at ten years old. There are exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb (Think about what was new and selling for big bucks in 1989, then figure out what Goodwill is getting for it right now, for a comparison). In 1984-1985, a PC-AT was (decked out with 40Mb disk and a meg or two of RAM) $5K. Ten years later, they were well below $100 and frequently spotted at $50. There's the 1%. It's not absolute, but it gives me an idea about what to pay for an item, Altairs and Apple I's notwithstanding. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 including a nice 17" monitor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:24 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >writes: >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. > >PLease, hear me out on this . . . > >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer >> hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. > >OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things >cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for >most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is >> generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled >> and functional) condition for significantly less than what it >> cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! > >But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and >'hopelessly out of reach'. > >> The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group >> were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated >> dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. > >The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not >be in the future . . . > >> Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may >> seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for >> a given item. To them, I sell what I can. > >No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby >afterall; so . . . > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned >> off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, >and >> that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a >candy >> bar. > >As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this >hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's >starting to change. > >> I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > >> $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of >> packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the >> alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > >> have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > >> as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for >> the shipping. > >Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce >commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. >You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. >> The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to >me, >> a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the >> same, and a terminal cost $750. > >Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 >though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could >persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > >> If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they >> were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I >could >> understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being >paid at >> auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or >component >> are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 >> Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it >cost new. > >Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which >sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go >the same way. > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 10 months

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1
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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi Glen, >I _will_ name them -- I work with Windows 9x every day, and it's a >horrible travesty, a poor excuse for an operating system.... Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. >....It saddens me to see that people accept this crap.... Quite, I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software I need to use for it. >Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? Didn't know we did....I love the machine. My favourite after the Atari 8-bits, great for hacking around on and devoid of the major design compromises that made hacking my old ZX-81 such a pain in the butt (I wouldn't care if I never saw another Sinclair machine as long as I live). <Minis> > Please advise, as this may be my next foray into collecting, if I can find >one and move it without a forklift . . . Minis come in all shapes and sizes, I'm concentrating on minis and workstations myself now (getting rid of just about all of my micros save for the Ataris, a BBC Master, a CBM P-500, a CBM 8296-D and an HP-150). You can get nice compact systems if you look around, especially when it comes to PDP-11s and (Micro)VAXen. In fact I picked up an IBM mini last week, though it's probably too new to be on topic in here, an AS/400 model 9404 which is not too much bigger than a pair of PCs in full tower cases.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

25 years, 10 months

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What is a Sirius?

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi Pete, > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what >it is? Lovely old machine, designed by Chuck Peddle IIRC. It's also known as the "Victor 9000". Usually runs MS-Dos, though CP/M-86 was also available. Supplied with either 128K or 256K RAM on the motherboard and expandable to 768K via a plug in card. The floppy only model had twin 5.25" floppy drives. They used standard 360K floppies but could write up to 1.2Mb to each disc (GCR encoding and variable rotational speed), there may have been a model which used 600K single sided drives too but don't quote me. The HD model had one of the floppies replaced by an internal hard drive. I think 10Mb was the biggest they were ever shipped with but, IIRC, the controller would handle a 20Mb drive. Interestingly the machine used an MFM drive, connected to a SASI to MFM bridge card, in turn connected to a SASI interface card which sat in one of the expansion slots. It had lots of neat features, such as the built in CODEC (great sound for it's day) and the ability to adjust the display's contrast and brightness directly >from the keyboard. Yeah....I've got one, but without a version of DOS that will see the hard drive it's just sat in a corner right now. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

25 years, 10 months

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What is a Sirius?

by Anthony.Eros＠COMPAQ.com

It was also marketed as the Victor 9000. It was an 8086-based box which ran DOS and CP/M, but wasn't really IBM-compatible. Hi-res, monochrome graphics and a (usually) 10 mb hard drive. The system was designed by Chuck Peddle, who I think was involved with the design of the 6800 and 6502 microprocessors. -- Tony > ---------- > From: Pete Joules[SMTP:peter@joules.enterprise-plc.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:25 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What is a Sirius? > > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? > > Regards > Pete >

25 years, 10 months

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LSI-11

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

Does anyone have any info concerning LSI-11 cards? It seems they are single-board versions of the PDP-11 CPU. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Teaching Assistant and MSc. Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, Portugal *** PGP Public Key available on my homepage: *** http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Key fingerprint = 0C 0A 25 58 46 CF 14 99 CF 9C AF 9E 10 02 BB 2A

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Tony: In a message dated 6/30/99 10:34:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > There's little point in working out how to link > a modern laser printer to a PERQ when you can get the original Canon > interface card and hook up a CX-VDO. Good point -- why reinvent the wheel? The thrill for many ZX81ers is sticking wings on an oxcart and watching it fly (erratically, and for a short time . . .) > And other peripherals do get designed. Like a chording keyboard, a way to > boot PERQ microcode from a PC (I _must_ find time to finish that!), etc > > Trivial hacks, like replacing 8" drives with 5.25"(1.2M) or 3.5" (1.44M) > drives are common. Great! IMHO, advancement of a platform is as important as preservation of that platform. > \begin{tongue-in-cheek} > Of course if you start out with a real computer... > \end{tongue-in-cheek} Yeah, I know, but it was my first computer, and I still love the damn thing. If it weren't for my exposure to the ZX81 (having no college education) I'd probably be managing a burger stand somewhere, instead of maintaining my lofty position as a _highly_paid_computer_professional_ and _independant_small_business_owner_. Thanks for all of your help, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Strange PDP card available

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

This is an adac corp. model 1664ATTL double-wide board. I have no idea what buss this is for, but I think it is some kind of data aquisition thingie. Have no idea if it works; anybody want it? $3 plus postage. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello William: In a message dated 6/30/99 10:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aw288(a)osfn.org writes: > With big machines, tinkering was generally frowned upon, especially with > the hardware. I'll bet it was! I once caused an uproar at BP's MIS Dept. over some code I wrote to batch transaction records from PCs to VAXen via ATT Mail ... nobody told me the VAX would puke if it encountered a null in a data record . . . and that was just _software_ . . . taught me a lesson: never rock the "big iron" . . . But nowadays, do those members of the group who have "big" computers out in their barns experiment with them? Or just try to restore and preserve them? After all, nothing (probably) really depends on the machine in your basement . . . so no real chance of a summary execution . . . just curious . . . Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Tony: In a message dated 6/30/99 8:32:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Well, the PERQ was a sideline of the main development, it's true. But > yes, alas.... > > Of course a PERQ is (IMHO) a lot more pleasant to use and a lot more > stable than some modern OSes I could name... I _will_ name them -- I work with Windows 9x every day, and it's a horrible travesty, a poor excuse for an operating system. It saddens me to see that people accept this crap. I get better error report codes from my ZX81. "Illegal operation," indeed! > But for graphics operations, it's painful. You start in sync. After that > you have to count every microcycle so that you know exactly when a memory > address or control word has to be generated. There is no synchronisation > logic here. ] Whew! And I thought counting Z80 t-states was bad . . . > I've long been of the belief > that software developers should be forced to use a machine at least one > 'generation' behind that in normal use at the time. If their code is > useable on that, it should be useable on the public's machines :-) Right on! Those clowns in Redmond are using 550 MHz P-IIIs with 256 MB RAM, you can count on it! Ever try loading Win 95 on a 25 MHz 386 with a 17 ms hard drive and 4 MB RAM? > I think the PC would have hit the workplace anyway, and > most of the mainstream applications would be much the same. Without a doubt. > I don't want to belittle the cheap home computers and their place in > computer history. But equally I don't want other machines to be forgotten > either. Likewise. > In other words the local-ish second-hand computer shop tries to sell that > at that price. Mind you their prices are a little strange - CBM 64 : > \pounds 25.00. CBM P500 : \pounds 10.00. BBC micro : \pounds 1.00. Go figure. Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? > However _now_ you have a lot more choices : > > 'Modern PC, running 'standard' applications'. Not that education _about > computers. Breaks my heart every day to see a 200+ MHz PC turned into a limping dog by what is represented to the unsuspecting public as a "multitasking operating system." I'll never again do any major programming on a PC, unless the OS is non-Windows or I am completely destitute. > 'Early 80's home micro'. As educational as ever. Yes, you can still learn > a lot packing progams into 1K or whatever. I learn from my ZX81 & 2068 every week. > '1970s Minicomputer/Workstation'. Again as educational as ever. The point > is, these machines are now affordable. You can have a real PDP8 on your desk. Now, I have no -- none -- experience with anything bigger than a PC, but IIRC C & Unix were developed on a PDP-8 (or was it an 11???). I _am_ a C fanatic so these have some historical interest for me. Can you really have one on a desktop? Is the CPU smaller than a Toyota? Are 8" floppies still available? Please advise, as this may be my next foray into collecting, if I can find one and move it without a forklift . . . A newbie collector thanks you very much for your help, Glen Goodwin 0/0 P.S.: Isn't it rather sad that a micro-maker (Compaq) wound up buying DEC _and_ Tandem?

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 6/30/99 7:34:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, elvey(a)hal.com writes: > I doubt these people are just buying these things > to spray paint them, green and red, to use as lawn ornaments. Wow! Sounds to me like the perfect application for a C64 ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Data General/NeXT/Philips

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

In terms of pure cool, and collectability, I always felt that the DG AViiON would be a great addition to any collection. Cool Points: 1. The ultimate Orphan. One of a small handfull of machines to use Moto's 88000 CPU chipset. 2. DG's been encouraging its customers to 'upgrade' to their newer Intel offerings, so 'obsolete' hardware can be had fairly cheap. 3. Runs DG/UX (subspecies of UNIX). Can't get much cooler than that. 4. Came in double, and quad CPU configurations. Mondo cool. Caveats: 1. Make sure you get the software with it, as replacements are hard to come by, and ludicrously expensive. 2. Make sure you get the keyboards, mice, crt, etc. These were unique to the AViiON, IIRC. 3. No free operating system available for it (no LINUX or *BSD). Bummer. Just my $.02. Jeff On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:51:46 +0100 "Peter Pachla" <peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk> writes: > Can anyone point me at some sources of information on Data General, > NeXT and/or > Philips (minis). > > I'm looking to round off my collection by adding something from one > or more of > these product lines but know little about them so I don't really > know what to > look out for. > > In particular I've heard mention of a DG MicroNOVA which sounds like > it might > fit the bill in terms of size. > > TIA. > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers > (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | > peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | > peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | > www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk > -- > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: > I'm a little uncertain why it's causing any hostility. As Kai pointed > out, there's thousands of historic and interesting computers and > peripherals hitting the dumpster every day, and if increased public > awareness causes some of these machines to be saved, so much the better. > > Admittedly, most of the machines getting tossed aren't necessarily > in anyone's "top 100 collectible" list, but that doesn't make them any less > interesting IMHO. Case-in-point: just today, a friend is collecting half-a-dozen machines from a local high-school that's closing. He thought they were PS/1's, but from his description, they might be PC-AT's (he's not a collector). He found out about them when he was there to bid on shop equipment. The workmen told him that if someone didn't pick them up today, they were going to "throw them out"... out in this case is literally - out the second story window into an industrial dumpster. I asked him to grab these for me, sight unseen, just because I might be able to scavenge the disk drives (if 360K) for my Kaypro, not because these are likely to be any "Top 100" list. Even commodity hardware is work rescuing if only to keep the older stuff going. I have a small box of 5Mb and 10Mb drives for that same reason. I was amazed/disgusted at the $510 Mac 512K, though, mostly at the seller for not exactly lying, but not fully representing the truth. Caveat Emptor. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

25 years, 10 months

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HP3000

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi, > The second PA-RISC machine from HP. The HP-UX version is >the HP 9000/850. The MPE (not UNIX) version is the HP 3000/950. >So, if it says 950, it started life as an MPE machine.... I don't suppose anyone in the UK is dumping one of these? I used to support several of these machines in a previous job and would love to add one to my collection. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) Not to mention HP certified(!) MPE/ix system operator.... peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

25 years, 10 months

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Strange PDP card available

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 06:41:58 -0400 Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> writes: > Acording to the current ADAC catalog: > > Q-Bus compatible products > > 1664ATTL > > 64 line TTL compatible input/output card. Can provide any > combination of > inputs and outputs in increments of 8 by jumper control. All outputs > latched. Program control interface included. Can drive at least 12' > of > cable. Can sink 20ma on each output. Size 8-1/2 X 5". > > list $515 ^^^ Yeek! Oh well. If anyone needs/wants this, my offer stands, as I sure as hell can't use it; and I'm not in this for the $$$. Jeff > > Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com> > > > jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com wrote: > > > > This is an adac corp. model 1664ATTL double-wide > > board. I have no idea what buss this is for, > > but I think it is some kind of data aquisition > > thingie. > > > > Have no idea if it works; anybody want it? > > $3 plus postage. > > > > Jeff > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>an idiot. People pay money for something because they want it. So, you're >>basically upset that somebody wants it more than you do? > >I agree that this is not a legitimate thing over which to become angry, >but there is an issue that this is driving the prices up, out of reach of >people who can handle these machines, and into the reach of people who >want to encase them in plastic and put them into their 500 sq.ft. living >room. This is causing some hostility. I'm a little uncertain why it's causing any hostility. As Kai pointed out, there's thousands of historic and interesting computers and peripherals hitting the dumpster every day, and if increased public awareness causes some of these machines to be saved, so much the better. Admittedly, most of the machines getting tossed aren't necessarily in anyone's "top 100 collectible" list, but that doesn't make them any less interesting IMHO. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 10 months

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What is a Sirius?

by Anthony.Eros＠COMPAQ.com

It was also marketed as the Victor 9000. > ---------- > From: Pete Joules[SMTP:peter@joules.enterprise-plc.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:25 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What is a Sirius? > > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? > > Regards > Pete >

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Now, I have no -- none -- experience with anything bigger than a PC, but >IIRC C & Unix were developed on a PDP-8 (or was it an 11???). I _am_ a C >fanatic so these have some historical interest for me. Can you really >have one on a desktop? Is the CPU smaller than a Toyota? Are 8" >floppies still available? Almost... C and Unix were originally developed (as far as *I* know) on a pdp-7, and later on a pdp-11. As for size, it depends on model and peripherals... For example, the 8/I I used in high school was one 6' rack and an ASR33 and it had no peripherals other than the ASR33 (we read everything in via low-speed reader and punched tape at the TTY speed). I now have a pdp-8/e (with no peripherals) and it could sit on a desk (though it would take up a significant percentage of the surface). Tomorrow I'll be getting an old DECmate (the one in a VT terminal) and a couple of 8" floppy drives... > Please advise, as this may be my next foray into collecting, if I can >find one and move it without a forklift . . . Check out the -8s on my collection page to get an idea of size (of systems with peripherals -- remember, the cabs are 6' high). http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html >P.S.: Isn't it rather sad that a micro-maker (Compaq) wound up buying >DEC _and_ Tandem? Yes... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer (Formerly with DEC for ~20 years) +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

25 years, 10 months

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DC Power supply question...duh...

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Not exactly. While 12 * 15 is 180, there are heat issues and such that probably limit the supply to 8 to 10 amps with a margin for overload. --Chuck At 09:44 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a >fool..." > >I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than >180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple >math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this >PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? > >Aaron >

25 years, 10 months

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State of the Hobby

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in so many senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals those of much more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the hobby begins to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our fundamentals. Lately, there has been a disturbing trend towards isolationism and elitism among our flock, up to and including outright hostility. This has got to stop. Now, as Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here. As much as anyone else, I'd like a world full of retired aerospace engineers with garages full of free Altairs. I'd also like the IRS to abolish my income taxes and give me a free Ferrari. It's just not going to work that way, folks. Lashing out at people who want to publicize our hobby is like sitting in the nosebleed section of your hometown baseball stadium and hoping to god that your team loses big so you can afford better tickets next year. Get OVER it. Nobody understands our hobby, it's next to impossible to properly insure, there's far too little real museum space devoted to classic computers, hundreds of historic pieces are being tossed in the dumpster every day, and you want to keep the whole thing a big in-clique secret. Does this make any freaking sense to you? Every time I hear somebody say something like, "Are you going to sell that to a REAL collector at a decent price or are you going to WHORE it on EBAY?" I just want to gag. Amazing as this may seem, the people on eBay deserve this stuff as much as you do, mr. nose-in-the-air elitist. Oh sure, who wouldn't want to buy the thing at a token "collector price" and save a bunch of money, but don't make the seller feel like an ass because he wants to participate in a free-market economy. And quit calling the people on eBay "morons". OK, sure, the guy who bid $510 for the "signature Macintosh" was a few cans short of a six-pack, but if you bothered to follow up on the auction, you'd notice that most of the bidders pulled out once they caught a clue. And everybody who pays what YOU consider a high price for a genuinely interesting piece of hardware is not an idiot. People pay money for something because they want it. So, you're basically upset that somebody wants it more than you do? And while we're at it, what's with all this "some rich bastard overbid me" crap. If I went through all the classiccmp posts about rich executives, rich internet IPO participants, rich employees of big computer companies, and replaced all the occurrences of "rich" with "black" or "hispanic", the vintage computer festival would look like a Klan rally. America has always stood for a place where anybody can get rich if they work hard enough. Are you upset that somebody else got there first? There is a lot of assumption that, when someone pays a high price for a classic computer, that they A) don't know as much about it as you do, and B) don't care as much about it as you do, when the reverse is probably the case. Look, just because you refused that job opportunity at Apple in 1983 because you thought the Lisa was a bomb and your business selling print drivers for daisywheels was doing so well, DOESN'T mean you're an idealist. Because somebody outbid you doesn't mean they deserve it less than you do. Maybe they have more cash, maybe they were just willing to bid a higher perecentage of their income than you were. Heck, somebody with cash probably is going to care for the item better. A good percentage of the purported idealists complaining about high classic computer prices have an Altair on their kitchen table with coffee mug rings on the top. Look, I'm impressed that you're reading this post through a custom TCP/IP stack that you wrote for a Kaypro II. If you did that for the fun of it, more power to you. If you think that doing your daily correspondence on a dot matrix printer makes you a better classic computer collector than the rest of us, that's something else. It's like that guy who coated the entire exterior of his 1952 Oldsmobile with tiny rhinestones over a grueling 5-year period -- impressive, but the man obviously had too much time on his hands. It is NOT necessary to have a Wozniak beard, live in a geodesic dome house, and drive a Volkswagen Thing to appreciate classic computers. Wake up, open up, embrace the world's coming to know our hobby. Because otherwise, one day you're going to wake up and find that not a single schoolchildren remembers any of this history, because somebody started making 6800 assembler coding an entrance requirement to the museums. Kai

25 years, 10 months

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Toshiba T1200 laptop battery question

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

I KNOW that this would have been dealt with somewhere but can't find it so standard apologizes are applicable. On the little battery pack on the T1200 laptop, there is a little switch (breaker?) that in one position is read and on the other is closed. What the heck does it mean and what position does it go to for recharging. I've hooked it up to a 12v adapter and the little red light on the upper left hand corner of the laptop blinks which is what my old Sanyo would do on a recharge. Is it the same for the Toshiba? TIA colan

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Lawrence! In a message dated 6/30/99 11:50:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lemay(a)cs.umn.edu writes: > Real rare seems an understatement. You're the first person I've heard of > that even knows what I'm babbling about when I mention my Microace ;) Okay, so I read a lot ... actually fleeting references to this machine pop up >from time to time in ZX81 literature. Let me pore over some old Timex/Sinclair user group mags and contact a few friends . . . give me a couple of days on this one. IIRC this thing is 100% ZX81 compatible -- please share your experience with me. > Sure, I have the whole thing. Original packaging. Board is dated 1980. > I never got around to putting the Microace sticker on the case, or > even putting the case together. Holy cow! You've never spoken with anyone who knew about the MicroACE, and I've never met anyone who ever owned one!! Let alone, still owns one!!! > Know of any web sites or other sources of information about this computer? > Of course I keep thinking I should make a small web page with a few photos > of this thing... That would be cool -- I just took a look at the ZX-TEAM web site, and they mention the MicroACE but have no details -- and these guys are the _world's_biggest_fanatics_ re ZX81 clones . . . Give me a couple of days -- I'll be back in touch. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

In a message dated 6/30/99 10:35:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, museum(a)techniche.com writes: > I bought my first computer (a TI 99/4A) in 1981. > > I am almost certain that the price for the console package at that time was $ > 99. > > The Ed/asm was an available option for an extra charge. You may have gotten a _really_good_deal_. IIRC, the list price for the TI was $299. They were heavily discounted in late '82-'83, to about $149. If you'd like to take a trip back through time, I believe I can refer you to some web sites which have old ads for the TI machines. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Lawrence: In a message dated 6/30/99 7:13:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lemay(a)cs.umn.edu writes: > > Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was > > available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler and > > machine code -- at home? > > The MicroACE. Available in kit form for about $170, that included the > extra 1K of ram ;) for a total of 2K ram. Basic in rom, video modulator > on board, cassette interface. Basically looked like a timex/sinclair > though. I bought mine definitely before 1981, so probably in 79 or maybe 80. Once again, almost twice the price of a ZX81. Historical note -- the MicroACE used Sinclair code without permission (along with a number of Asian and South American knock-offs). Sinclair sued, successfully, and MicroACE production was halted. If you still have it, be advised it's really rare now, and highly sought-after by "real" ZX81ers (non-speculators). Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by museum＠techniche.com

SNIP.... >Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was >available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler and >machine code -- at home? > I bought my first computer (a TI 99/4A) in 1981. I am almost certain that the price for the console package at that time was $99. The Ed/asm was an available option for an extra charge.

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Tony: In a message dated 6/30/99 2:31:07 PM EST, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: << Actually a ZX80. The 4K ROM is the clue - the ZX81 has an 8K ROM with a floating point BASIC. >> Well, duh on me -- I must have written that post in my sleep ;>) << I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by the Macintosh. >> Can't argue with that. So the PERQ is to blame for Windows, right? ;>) << For better or worse, the GUI (in particular MS Windows) has a major influence on today's computing. More so than (IMHO) the influence of cheap home computers. In other words, had the ZX80, etc never existed (but keeping the IBM PC etc), then computing today wouldn't be that different. Had the PERQ/Dmachines, etc never existed, then things would most likely have been somewhat different. >> I largely agree with this statement. I think, though, that programmers such as myself who cut their teeth on 1K/2K machines learned to squeeze the maximum performance out a system, whereas folks who learned to program on a PC, using the flabby and bloated DOS & Windows platforms, generally don't care about conservation of system resources ("stuff some more RAM in it"), tightening up code ("use a faster processor"), etc. << Are you suggesting that if there hadn't been cheap home computers, then there wouldn't have been IBM PCs? I am not sure I can agree with that. >> Not for a moment -- I _am_ suggesting, however, that lots of people who couldn't afford a $5000 PC in 1982, or who didn't want to spend that much to "find out about computers," were able to have a usable computer at home years before most people. This allowed us to become familiar with computer concepts and programming without formal training. Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler and machine code -- at home? << I am not convinced that it has 10 times the importance of the PERQ. And yet I see the (much more common) ZX81 selling for \pounds 50, and the ZX80 selling for \pounds 200. I've never heard of a PERQ sell for anything like that figure. >> If you know of anyone interested in a ZX81 for GBP 50, please let me know -- I can supply several hundred at this price -- assembled and tested. ;>) << The other point is that the PERQ had features which a lot of people don't believe existed in 1980. Things like a high-resolution bitmapped display. Like a pointing device. These, I agree, didn't exist on home computers of the time. So if home computers are all that's seriously collected, then history is being distorted because many such features will appear far too late. >> On the other hand, if tons of people suddenly decide they want to collect PERQs (PDPs, ancient IBMs, or whatever), then the price goes way up and that diminishes the opportunities for folks like yourself to obtain one. << I would seriously argue that you'll learn a lot more about CPU opertion from a minicomputer processor (or a PERQ :-)) than you ever will from a micro.... >> No doubt about it, Tony, but in 1982 I couldn't buy a PERQ or a mini for $100!!! My choice at the time was a crap little computer -- or no computer at all! << Machine A : PERQ 1a , second version of first commercial workstation, typical price <\pounds 10.00 >> Seriously? GBP 10 ???? Hmm, maybe it's not too late for me to see the error of my ways . . . ;>) << Machine B : Sinclair ZX80, 1st machine < \pounds 100 when it came out, typical price >\pounds 100 now. I am not going to mention which I consider to be the techincally better machine, or which I'd rather own. >> Of course you're not -- the ZXs rule! ;>) << I am still convinced, though that the PERQ, and other workstations, have a more important influence on today's computers than the cheap home micros do >> Perhaps, but for 1000s of us the Timex/Sinclairs kick-started our careers and our interest in computers in general. There are 1000s of _active_ users of these machines still out there today. If you doubt it, do web a search on "ZX81" or "ZX Spectrum." Regards, & thanks for your insight, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello Philip: Thanks very much for the explanation. There are certainly a lot of factors involved in determining the "value" and "collectibility" of computers. Target market, production numbers, public perception, etc. I have a sentimental "soft spot" re the Timex/Sinclair machines . . . so I would collect them regardless of perceived "value." In a message dated 6/30/99 4:18:39 AM EST, Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com writes: << But what we observe is that people preserve ZX80s because of their market significance - the first sub-100-pound computer (not that it was, of course), the first home computer for non-enthusiasts (hardly that, for that matter) or whatever. And ignore other machines, simply because they are insufficiently educated. Result, ZX80s fetch premium prices, and Perqs go for a song, thus reinforcing the perceived significance of the former relative to the latter. >> What was the first sub-100-pound computer (MK14??) << Yes, those ZX81 cases make excellent door wedges, don't they ;-) >> Can't beat 'em! Thanks, Glen 0/0

25 years, 10 months

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8T97 == 74367 ??

by bill＠chipware.com

Are these two parts equivalent: 74367AN and N8T97N Thanks, Bill

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> In a message dated 6/29/99 6:14:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tony Duell > writes: > >> This means the history of computing is being distorted. Truely important >> machines are being forgotten. Other machines, much less significant, are >> being remembered. This is not a good thing. >> >> OK, let me ask a very simple question. I will give below the >> specification of 2 machines, both from around 1980. The questions are : >> Which do you think is the more historically important, and which one >> would fetch a higher price (Oh, and would anyone care to name the 2 >> machines :-)) >> >> OK. Machine A : >> >> Processor : Custom 16/20 bit CPU. Graphics processor. Z80-A for I/O >> >> RAM : 1Mbyte >> >> Storage : 8" floppy disk, 24Mbyte hard disk >> >> Keyboard : Full QWERTY keyboard, Keytronics >> >> Display : Bitmapped display, 768*1024 pixels (portrait monitor) >> >> Mouse : Sumagraphics Bit Pad 1 >> >> Languages : Pascal, LISP, etc >> >> Comments : Version of the first commercially-sold graphics workstation >> >> >> Machine B : >> >> Processor : Z80A >> >> RAM : 1Kbyte >> >> Storage : Sockets to connect optional audio cassette recorder >> >> Keyboard : QWERTY membrane keyboaard >> >> Display : Text (22*23 or something like that), block graphics. Disappears >> when program running >> >> Mouse : You must be joking >> >> Languages : 4K ROM containing strange (integer only?) BASIC. >> >> Comments : Very inexpensive home computer > > Machine B is very obviously a Sinclair ZX80 or ZX81. Pardon my confusion, > but are you saying that the ZX80/81 was "much less significant?" Perhaps I > misunderstand. Machine B is a ZX80 from Tony's description. Machine A seems to be a Perq 2T2, but I may be wrong. > Millions of people worldwide were introduced to computers by these machines > (and their Timex cousins). Because of the low price, people bought them to > see if they "liked computing" -- if not, they could throw them away and only > be out $100 or so. > > On the other hand, many, like myself, found they had a small talent for > working with computers -- in whatever capacity -- and thus found employment, > careers, and satisfaction because of their initial experience with > Timex/Sinclair computers. There is significance and significance, unfortunately. Tony seems to be concerned about the distortion of history, and I strongly sympathise. Let me digress by telling you a story. A week or two ago I had a rep call from the bank to advise me about investments (refreshingly candid - "%Bank has a lot of cash at the moment, so you won't get a good rate by putting your money as cash in the bank"). When we sat down at the one free corner of table, he noticed my mechanical calculator (Facit) and asked me what it was. I demonstrated, and he was amazed - he had no idea that any such devices had existed before the electronic pocket calculator. This is the distortion of history. People, used to modern computers with impressive specs and mediocre performance under W*****s, have no idea how much could be done by the technology of even 10 years ago, let alone 19 years ago (the date of those two machines). If they see the ZX80 as typical computers of 1980, they will continue to think that PCs with Windows were the first serious personal computers (by some definition - someone on this list posted a URL the other day that claims personal computer == home computer). If they see Perqs as typical computers of 1980, they will think no wonder nobody had a computer at home 20 years ago! To present a balanced view, we need to preserve both ends of the market. Both are significant, the Perq from a technology point of view and the ZX80 from a market point of view, so from the point of view of significance, one ought to see both attract the same price. The Perq is rarer, so perhaps rarity value would push the Perq up a bit. But what we observe is that people preserve ZX80s because of their market significance - the first sub-100-pound computer (not that it was, of course), the first home computer for non-enthusiasts (hardly that, for that matter) or whatever. And ignore other machines, simply because they are insufficiently educated. Result, ZX80s fetch premium prices, and Perqs go for a song, thus reinforcing the perceived significance of the former relative to the latter. Result: history is distorted, because people see the ZX80 as a typical machine, not as the bottom end of a highly varied market. >> I think that if you own a classic computer you should learn how it works, >> how to use it, how to repair it, etc. Note, I am _NOT_ saying that you >> have to be qualified (after all, I'm not). I am not saying that you have >> to know everything before you start. I am saying, though, that you should >> want to learn. > > The TS computers' simple but clever architecture encouraged learning all the > "how to's" you mention above. Sorry, Tony, I must agree with Glen here. Sinclair did not go to the trouble that Apple and Microsoft have since expended to separate the user from the nitty-gritty of how the machine works. The Sinclair is a far better machine to learn on than a PC clone, say. (Hey, it even has a programming language as standard...) Cheap and nasty, perhaps, but a real computer nonetheless. (Not that I particularly want one...) > > But, perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying . . . > > So: what are these two computers? Which is the most historically important, > and, in your opinion, which would fetch a higher price? Well, you have my opinion - equal on significance, Perq higher priced through rarity value. I will now stand back and let others have their say. > > BTW, I use my Timex/Sinclair computers for some purpose at least five days > out of seven. Yes, those ZX81 cases make excellent door wedges, don't they ;-) Philip.

25 years, 10 months

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HP3000

by ss＠allegro.com

Re: > Here is some more detail on the HP 3000. > > Front panel says its a series 950, about a dozen boxes of manuals (looks > like it may have been running unix), and the salvage guy is looking for at The second PA-RISC machine from HP. The HP-UX version is the HP 9000/850. The MPE (not UNIX) version is the HP 3000/950. So, if it says 950, it started life as an MPE machine. Note, however, that the hardware was basically identical. HP-UX would easily boot and run on the 950. (The opposite wasn't true due to MPE checking to see if the machine was officially capable of running MPE ... shows that HP valued MPE more than HP-UX :) It's a 6.5 MHz machine. Stan

25 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080 (our show so far...)

by bill＠chipware.com

> Also where did you get that one... The description of the hacked front > pannel sounds familiar to two I've seen. I'd rather not say :) But on the hacks note... Digging through the binders I got with it, I have found: 1) Front panel assembly instructions. The 16 pin cable is installed on the correct side of the board (not on the component side). However interpretation of pin one is vague. I quote: CP-A TO MPU-A INSTALLATION 30) Using the 16 conductor ribbon cable with 16 pin 3M dual inline connectr, insert one end into the hole pattern U2 from the back side of the CP-A board so that it can be soldered from the front (component side) of the CP-A board. The cable should be mounted so that it extends upward from the top of the chassis when the board is mounted. End quote. Which end of the cable you choose to solder to the CP-A will changed the orientation of the red (pin 1) stripe. 2) Not schematics, but drawings of the trace layouts, front and back. This allows me to ID the panel as a CPA REV.4. The actual label with the IMS Assoc. etc. is on the component side, hidden under the metal bar that supports the switches. 3) Modification instructions. This allows me to identify two of the modifications: One is a DRAM mod, apparently changing how S-100 pin 71 is interpreted. This mod is given the number: ECN 77-0039. The other is a change to the behavior of the one-shots (74123s) to prevent spurious triggering while in RUN mode. This mod is given the number: ECO 77-0098. There is a third modification to this panel which involves the lower right 7400 when viewed from the component side (labeled U25 in the drawing I have). Thanks, Bill

25 years, 10 months

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New member, New machine

by andyl＠azaal.dircon.co.uk

Hi, I have just rejoined this list (I have joined in the past but somehow I was removed from the list earlier in the week). Anyway the reason I am mailing is that I have just been given the chance to take home a decomissioned Meiko CS2 from work. It wask working upto a couple of weeks ago, but has recently been moved and will not come back up again. The person who supervised the move re-seated all the boards, but did not try and in depth investigation. I am very positive that I will resurrect it. Hopefully I will be able to take it away (software and manuals included). For those who don't know about the Meiko - it is supposed to be a massively parallel architecture based around SPARC processors, and runs a modified version of Solaris. I know that this is probably a bit recent to be classed as a classic at the moment, however I believe it will become one in the future as it is relatively rare, Meiko never produced that many, British, and an interesting machine. BTW the machine I am talking about is mentioned on meiko's website at http://www.meiko.co.uk/info/CorporateOverview.html. Also don't get carried away by the story of the Lawrence Livermore Labs having an 800 module (processor?) system, this is nowhere that size. -- Andy Leighton => andyl(a)azaal.dircon.co.uk "... January is your third most common month for madness" - _Sarah Canary_

25 years, 10 months

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Going out of contact...

by review＠RyansPC.ryanspc.com

Hi. Just to let everyone know, I'll be going out of contact from next Tuesday to sometimne in late July or early August. I'll be unsubscribed to the list, but if there's anything you need to say to me, I can be reached at tim(a)thereviewguide.com. Ciao, Tim

25 years, 10 months

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HP3000

by mikeford＠netwiz.net

>> HP3000 fresh from some local gov agency was sitting in the salvage joint >> yesterday. About the size of a side by side washer and dryer, email me for >> details. Location was Fullerton, CA... Here is some more detail on the HP 3000. Front panel says its a series 950, about a dozen boxes of manuals (looks like it may have been running unix), and the salvage guy is looking for at least a couple hundred bucks. From past experience I know this system won't hang around as soon as the space gets short. I don't really want to be in the middle of the transaction, but the salvage guy doesn't like dealing with end users, has no technical knowledge of the system (hence would only get annoyed with tech questions). Also if a couple people were to call about the system, the price would go up. What is needed are a truck and bucks asap. Whoever can manage those items first and best I will put in direct contact with the salvage guy and then get out of the way.

25 years, 10 months

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FW: Free: Falco serial terminal, IBM network adapters, Touch screen assembly

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Those in the Seattle area may want to check this out. Personally, I've got all the terminals I need. -=-=- <break> -=-=- On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:29:22 GMT, in seattle.forsale.computers you wrote: >>The following hardware is available for anyone that can make use of it. >>Condition unknown, but probably usable. >> >>1 Falco serial terminal - for your linux machine? >> >>5 Never used "IBM network adapters" - these were 1st generation boards, use >>"TV" type cable connections. Other "used" ones are available if you answer >>soon. >> >>1 Touch screen assembly - this is a device which is installed in from of a >>monitor (14 inch?) It scans a beam over the screen using a motorized mirror. >>When your finger breaks the beam, a signal may be timed to determine the >>location. >> >>1 mono monitor >> >>1 fixed frequency 640 X 480 open frame monitor >> >>Next stop - the dump - if no one wants these items. Give me your phone # and >>e-mail address in your reply. >> >>Bob >>trader(a)theheadoffice.com >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

25 years, 10 months

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Toshiba T1200 laptop battery question

by Mark.Ambrose＠RebusGroup.Com

I think it is a manual indicator to help you see which ones you have used, the idea being, if you had several and charged them all, you would flick them all over one way, and as you used them you would flick them over to red.... but I could be wrong! Hi tech or what? Toshibas normally have a constant led when recharging, a flashing led normally indicates that the batttery is knacked, although sometimes if you completely remove the battery and leave it a while it would work.... but I could be wrong! I hope it helps Mark -----Original Message----- From: Colan Mitchell [mailto:cdrmool@interlog.com] Sent: 30 June 1999 11:46 To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Toshiba T1200 laptop battery question I KNOW that this would have been dealt with somewhere but can't find it so standard apologizes are applicable. On the little battery pack on the T1200 laptop, there is a little switch (breaker?) that in one position is read and on the other is closed. What the heck does it mean and what position does it go to for recharging. I've hooked it up to a 12v adapter and the little red light on the upper left hand corner of the laptop blinks which is what my old Sanyo would do on a recharge. Is it the same for the Toshiba? TIA colan

25 years, 10 months

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IBM 5100 sought

by barry＠dobyns.com

I've got a 5110 (the small 5" monitor, no tape drive) w/basic and a 5120 w/Basic and APL (big 10" and 2 8" floppy drives). The 5110 worked last time I tried (about five years ago, now) and the 5120 did not, but the CPU cards from the 5120 could be swapped into the 5110 and I believe I tried it and that worked (giving you APL on the 5110). -b -----Original Message----- From: Eros, Anthony <Anthony.Eros(a)COMPAQ.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 1:55 PM Subject: IBM 5100 sought << Apologies if this was posted twice... >> Gang - I know they're highly sought-after, but I'd really love to snag an APL-capable IBM 5100 and thought I'd throw the question open... There's something about those systems I always liked (even though I didn't use one more than a couple of times in high school.) Is there any chance that I might be able to tempt one of you elusive 5100 owners with some combination of the following? > DEC PDP-8/L > Teletype ASR-33 Apple Macintosh Portable (with case) > NeXTstation Turbo Color (minus monitor and sound box) > HP 85 with a variety of ROM drawers > HP 9825A with 8" floppy drive > There'd be some shipping issues, but I'd even be open to parting with an IBM 1130 (missing keyboard, power supply and drum disk.) Any interest? > -- Tony Eros Mid-Atlantic Computer History Museum

25 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080 (our show so far...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> I've brought it up with the MPU-A installed and I <> get flashing lights. Press the STOP switch and I <> get solid lights. Now the weird part: When I <> toggle the address switches and press EXAMINE, <> here's what I get on the address lights: <> <> Legend: O - light off <> X - light on <> - - switch off <> ^ - switch on <> <> Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO OOOO <> Switches ---- ---- ---- ---- <> <> Lights OOOO OOOO XOOO OOOO <> Switches ---- ---- ---- ---^ Cable may be inverted, may also have a flakey switch. If I remember right it has to have addressable memory there too. Allison

25 years, 10 months

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8T97 == 74367 ??

by edick＠idcomm.com

They're not equivalent, though they share the same pinout and function with the old National Semiconductor 8097. The 8T97 has greater current source/sink capability, hence it is faster in some applications and can drive a pretty stubstantial load. It was very common as a bus driver, which was it's intended purpose. For normal TTL fanout, either part will work. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 12:56 PM Subject: 8T97 == 74367 ?? >Are these two parts equivalent: > >74367AN and N8T97N > >Thanks, >Bill

25 years, 10 months

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IMSAI front panel (7405 == 7406)??

by bill＠chipware.com

I'm suspicious of one of the 7405s (Hex open-collector inverters) driving the data lines to the MPU-A. I don't have any replacements, but I do have a handfull of 7406s (Hex open-collector high-voltage inverters). The pinouts in the Chip Directory look the same, only difference by them is that the 7406 is "Maximum output voltage is 30V". I think I'll try socketing the suspect chip (U1 for anybody keeping score) and putting in a 7406.

25 years, 10 months

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New today

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Picked three systems today for free at an auction, the guy was not after computers and these were in his box of goods. A Eagle Spirit XL luggable missing KB, a UNISYS PW2 Advantage just the box no kb or monitor, and a Tandy 1000 RSX Hard Drive a nice looking unit the kb was damaged so I tossed it. Have not yet powered any these up, will do that this weekend. Keep Computing John

25 years, 10 months

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VCF Computer Faire Online Form

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

If you are planning to exhibit at the VCF, the exhibitor form is now online. Please see http://www.vintage.org/vcf/exhibit.htm. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99]

25 years, 10 months

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Outcome of Today's Apple 1 Auction

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

-----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:dastar@ncal.verio.com] > as far as I know, the first Apple > ]['s serial number was 2001, so where does #2 fit into this?? I believe the machine is known colloquially, rather than literally, as serial #2. Easier than explaining that it's serial # 2002, which is probably the number it carries. > That is in fact the guy. Yup, it's been confirmed to me in private mail. > Did the prototype Lisa sell? Nope. The Apple I by itself was the only one of 5 computer lots that sold. Kai

25 years, 10 months

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Outcome of Today's Apple 1 Auction

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

OK, here's the scoop on the outcome of today's La Salle auction. First off, it turns out there was not one Apple 1 at auction, but two! The lots consisted of the following: Lot: Seller anonymous. Apple 1 computer (no serial #), keyboard, original manual, 2 canceled checks. SOLD for $18,000 to a Captain O'Mahony of London, England. Lot: Seller, Jeff Raskin. 3 computers in lot. Apple 1 computer (serial # 4), Apple II computer (serial # 2), Millionth Macintosh with Plaque (one of 6). UNSOLD at a starting price of $90,000. I believe this is the first verifiable recorded public sale of an Apple 1, with the exception of the old Computer Bowl charity auction, which doesn't really count. PURE SPECULATION: The guy I bought my SWTPC 6800 from at VCF 2.0 said he had an Apple 1 that he was going to have sold at an "auction house in the bay area" in the coming year. I'm willing to bet that the anonymous seller was this guy. I recall that somebody in our core community (Marvin? Doug Coward?) knew this guy and could verify this. Kai

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by edick＠idcomm.com

please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 11:14 AM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. >> In the article I claim collecting computers is like collecting money - >> you don't have to be a banker to collect money and so you don't >> need to be a techie to collect computers. Then I warn would be > >Hmmm... There are 2 ways to collect money (at least). Either you collect >particular coins/banknotes/etc because of their historical significance. >Or you just collect any money you can get, with a view to spending it later. > >In other words you either collect money for its significance or because >you can later exchange it for something else. That's true, but it applies particularly to money because that's why we have it. Even money involves a little speculation. In general, however, the value of money varies very little with fads or changing tastes, and relatively little over time, at least a lifetime. The value of most "collectible" computers is not generally higher than the money it took to buy them when they were new. In fact, I've observed that even the more famous collectible computer stuff sold on the eBay auction doesn't go for more than it cost new. >The same applies (unfortunately) to computers. . . . as it does to all other durable goods. >I am a little concerned that articles like this further distort computer >history by making certain machines 'collectable' (and out of the reach of >people who would truely use them :-(), while other, possibly more >important machines are worth next-to-nothing If you think an eBay IMSAI computer is unreachable now, consider what it cost in "real" money, back in the days when it was on the market, which was back when a dollar was a DOLLAR and not just the price of a candy bar. >You may think I exagerate, but I can get a true descendent of the Xerox >Alto for a few pounds while the illegitimate child (aka Apple Lisa) is >many times that figure. > As for why the Alto costs less than the Lisa, consider how many people have the knowledge and resources to do anything anything even remotely useful, to an average person, i.e. something other than creating software or meaninless calculations. It's not really easy to get software to make the Lisa do anything useful, either, but it's probably billons of times easier (forgive the weak attempt to quantify something unquantifiable) than for the Alto. The difference is between showing off what a LISA is known (to a small but significant few) to be able to do (I even made overhead slides with one, having hooked it to a laser printer myself), and just going in the back room and saying OOh! and AAh! at the computer the capabilities of which are certainly unfamiliar to me. > >-tony >

25 years, 10 months

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70's sheet metal cases

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

By the way, I did some research about this site a while back... this guy Turley is a controversial figure from the old Apple II community. He has a history of grandiose claims (e.g. "I gave Apple the idea for the iMac advertising theme") and has been frequently accused of commercial software piracy & putting his name on code other people have written (e.g. http://www.cyberstation.fr/~zardini/DrTom/). There is no evidence he actually owns the Apple 1 pictured, he simply got the photos from a potential seller. As for the Apple 1 cases, apparently you could order a hand-made one-off case from the Apple guys, but most people either just made a case themselves or bought a case made for an ASCII keyboard and used that (see the BYTE ads for Shugart floppies ca. 1978, they show a guy with a North Star Horizon using a keyboard mounted in a case that looks just like the typical sort of case people put Apple 1's into. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Maginnis [mailto:celt@chisp.net] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 4:43 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: 70's sheet metal cases The case is actually wood, not sheet metal. IIRC, it was one of the handmade Apples in Wozniak's garage (after the operation moved from Job's bedroom in his parents' house). Mike Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Did anyone else follow the link in the WIRED Apple 1 article? > It goes here: > > http://www.grin.net/~cturley/gsezine/GS.WorldView/*APPLE.HISTORY/ > > Does anyone know the origin of this case? The color and > general style of the sheet metal look about right for some > OSI boxes. It also has a SOL-ish quality. > > Were there one or two sheet metal shops doing the cases for > most computers in the mid-to-late 70's? > > I've sent this question off to the ex-OSI engineer I know, but > he will probably take a couple of weeks to respond. > > Bill Sudbrink

25 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080 (our show so far...)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Have you contacted Todd Fisher at www.imsai.com? He might actually know about this type of problem. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 1:19 PM Subject: RE[2]: IMSAI 8080 (our show so far...) >"Bill Sudbrink" <bill(a)chipware.com> wrote: >> Ok. There is a 16 pin ribbon cable between >> the front panel and the MPU-A card. > >Hi Bill > I'm sure there is a scrambling of this connection >someplace. This is the only place that can do the >things you mentioned. The front panel is hard >wired to the S-100 bus. This means that wires can't >get mixed here. The data lines from the CPU board >to the front panel can get swap around. Remember that the >way the front panel does things is by jamming instructions >and data directly onto the CPU's bus through the cable. >The results are read from the S-100 bus. In other words, >when you use a front panel switch, like examine, it >forces a jump instruction into the CPU with >the address you specify with the switches over the cable, >in sequence. A real clever trick I'd say. You'll note that >the C3 bit sequence still works if the data bits 7-0 are mirrored >to 0-7. This is why the panel seems to do anything at all. > If reversing the ribbon connector in the header doesn't >work, try removing the socket from the CPU card or front >panel and installing it on the other side of the PC >board. I would suspect that this was an error in the construction >of the front panel from day one. It is most likely the >front panel that is backwards. Just flipping the IDC header >on the cable won't mirror the wiring to the connector. >Putting the socket on the other side of the board will >mirror things. > At worst, you'll have to hand wire the cable to make up for a >non-standard connector but I'd think it was more likely >just getting the header socket right at both ends. I don't >have a schematic of the panel in front of me but it is a >simple mapping problem. >Dwight >

25 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080 (our show so far...)

by bill＠chipware.com

So far, all of the power in my IMSAI checks out OK. I've brought it up with the MPU-A installed and I get flashing lights. Press the STOP switch and I get solid lights. Now the weird part: When I toggle the address switches and press EXAMINE, here's what I get on the address lights: Legend: O - light off X - light on - - switch off ^ - switch on Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---- ---- ---- ---- Lights OOOO OOOO XOOO OOOO Switches ---- ---- ---- ---^ Lights OOOO OOOO OXOO OOOO Switches ---- ---- ---- --^- Lights OOOO OOOO OOXO OOOO Switches ---- ---- ---- -^-- Lights OOOO OOOO OOOX OOOO Switches ---- ---- ---- ^--- Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO XOOO Switches ---- ---- ---^ ---- Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO OXOO Switches ---- ---- --^- ---- Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO OOXO Switches ---- ---- -^-- ---- Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---- ---- ^--- ---- Lights XOOO OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---- ---^ ---- ---- Lights OXOO OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---- --^- ---- ---- Lights OOXO OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---- -^-- ---- ---- Lights OOOX OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---- ^--- ---- ---- Lights OOOO XOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ---^ ---- ---- ---- Lights OOOO OXOO OOOO OOOO Switches --^- ---- ---- ---- Lights OOOO OOXO OOOO OOOO Switches -^-- ---- ---- ---- Lights OOOO OOOO OOOO OOOO Switches ^--- ---- ---- ---- Lights XXXX XXXO XXXX XXXO Switches ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ If I hit EXAMINE NEXT from the above state, I get: Lights XXXX XXXO XXXX XXXX And, if I hit EXAMINE NEXT again, I get: Lights XXXX XXXX OOOO OOOO So I think the lights are working. I think something is wired strange in the panel? Are there Z80 mods I should look for? Thanks, Bill

25 years, 10 months

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Other list???

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>>In a message dated 6/28/99 11:57:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >>Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk writes: >> >>> Greetings everyone on both lists: >> >>Will some kind denizen of this listserv please enlighten me concerning the >>other list? >>Am I missing half the fun??? >> >>TIA >> >>Glen Goodwin >>0/0 > > Good question, looks like that was targeted at a > 'p850ug-list(a)thingy.zetnet.co.uk' list also. So what is a 'p850ug'? P850UG is the P850 User Group. P850 is an early 1970s mini made by Phillips, one of which Tony Duell acquired when at college, prompting him to found a computer preservation society, the P850 User Group. I joined the following year. Perhaps our founder should take up the story. I shall merely say that the P850UG-list is not open to public subscription. Philip.

25 years, 10 months

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Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by kstumpf＠unusual.on.ca

Dear collecting brethren, after I asked the List for photographs to be used in an article on collecting computers Joe Rigdon asked: "You ARE planning on telling the dealers that antique computers aren't worth bothering with and to promptly give them to their nearest Classic Computer Collector aren't you?" In the article I claim collecting computers is like collecting money - you don't have to be a banker to collect money and so you don't need to be a techie to collect computers. Then I warn would be dealers that in fact computers are much to complex to handle without a great deal of technical expertise. As far as promoting the CCL, I do, but it is up to each collector to work hard and diligently to create their own channels and sources, and to buy and sell with honesty and integrity. Happy collecting. >Kevin, > > You ARE planning on telling the dealers that antique computers aren't >worth bothering with and to promptly give them to their nearest Classic >Computer Collector aren't you? > > Joe > >At 11:22 PM 6/26/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Ladies and gentleman if you have your own photographs of a Poqet >>or a Portfolio, a Hyperion, IMSAI, or of early word processing software >>like Electric Pencil, Wordstar, Samna, Multimate, or scenes from >>a Hamfest and Goodwill-type store that show vintage computer gear >>please contact me privately. I have written an article on collecting >>computers for Antique Trader and we need these photographs to >>go with the article. >> >>You will receive the photograph credit, be mentioned in the caption, >>and receive a copy of the issue the article appears in. >> >>Please contact me privately. >> >>Thank you. >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>------------------------------- >>Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca >>+1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 >> >>Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from >> the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. >> >>Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & >>Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 >>. >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 .

25 years, 10 months

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