Hello Tony: In a message dated 6/30/99 2:31:07 PM EST, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: << Actually a ZX80. The 4K ROM is the clue - the ZX81 has an 8K ROM with a floating point BASIC. >> Well, duh on me -- I must have written that post in my sleep ;>) << I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by the Macintosh. >> Can't argue with that. So the PERQ is to blame for Windows, right? ;>) << For better or worse, the GUI (in particular MS Windows) has a major influence on today's computing. More so than (IMHO) the influence of cheap home computers. In other words, had the ZX80, etc never existed (but keeping the IBM PC etc), then computing today wouldn't be that different. Had the PERQ/Dmachines, etc never existed, then things would most likely have been somewhat different. >> I largely agree with this statement. I think, though, that programmers such as myself who cut their teeth on 1K/2K machines learned to squeeze the maximum performance out a system, whereas folks who learned to program on a PC, using the flabby and bloated DOS & Windows platforms, generally don't care about conservation of system resources ("stuff some more RAM in it"), tightening up code ("use a faster processor"), etc. << Are you suggesting that if there hadn't been cheap home computers, then there wouldn't have been IBM PCs? I am not sure I can agree with that. >> Not for a moment -- I _am_ suggesting, however, that lots of people who couldn't afford a $5000 PC in 1982, or who didn't want to spend that much to "find out about computers," were able to have a usable computer at home years before most people. This allowed us to become familiar with computer concepts and programming without formal training. Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler and machine code -- at home? << I am not convinced that it has 10 times the importance of the PERQ. And yet I see the (much more common) ZX81 selling for \pounds 50, and the ZX80 selling for \pounds 200. I've never heard of a PERQ sell for anything like that figure. >> If you know of anyone interested in a ZX81 for GBP 50, please let me know -- I can supply several hundred at this price -- assembled and tested. ;>) << The other point is that the PERQ had features which a lot of people don't believe existed in 1980. Things like a high-resolution bitmapped display. Like a pointing device. These, I agree, didn't exist on home computers of the time. So if home computers are all that's seriously collected, then history is being distorted because many such features will appear far too late. >> On the other hand, if tons of people suddenly decide they want to collect PERQs (PDPs, ancient IBMs, or whatever), then the price goes way up and that diminishes the opportunities for folks like yourself to obtain one. << I would seriously argue that you'll learn a lot more about CPU opertion from a minicomputer processor (or a PERQ :-)) than you ever will from a micro.... >> No doubt about it, Tony, but in 1982 I couldn't buy a PERQ or a mini for $100!!! My choice at the time was a crap little computer -- or no computer at all! << Machine A : PERQ 1a , second version of first commercial workstation, typical price <\pounds 10.00 >> Seriously? GBP 10 ???? Hmm, maybe it's not too late for me to see the error of my ways . . . ;>) << Machine B : Sinclair ZX80, 1st machine < \pounds 100 when it came out, typical price >\pounds 100 now. I am not going to mention which I consider to be the techincally better machine, or which I'd rather own. >> Of course you're not -- the ZXs rule! ;>) << I am still convinced, though that the PERQ, and other workstations, have a more important influence on today's computers than the cheap home micros do >> Perhaps, but for 1000s of us the Timex/Sinclairs kick-started our careers and our interest in computers in general. There are 1000s of _active_ users of these machines still out there today. If you doubt it, do web a search on "ZX81" or "ZX Spectrum." Regards, & thanks for your insight, Glen Goodwin 0/0