- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

Commodore C64 confuses Austrian police (OT)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

John opined >More like, if you don't want to spend the money to have some >obscure data recovered, give it to a criminal who's about to be busted. So the US people should watch out - law enforcement will just grep the list for the equipment they want, and threaten prosecution under the copyright or terrorism laws "unless you want to cooperate".

19 years, 12 months

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DecServer 700 - WWENG2.SYS image

by pjchsmit＠gmail.com

Hello, While browsing the classiccmp archives I found an email from Fred van Kempen about the boot images for DECserver 700-16 terminal servers (wweng1.sys wweng2.sys) and this email address in it. I'm not sure if I'm going the right way here, so please excuse me if I'm wrong. I just got my hands on DECserver 700-16 but I don't have the boot image and I was hoping you could maybe forward me a copy of the image! Thanks a lot!! Best regards, Peter Smit

20 years

2
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Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police

by tpeters＠mixcom.com

Commodore 64 Confuses Austrian Police From slashdot.org article http://slashdot.org/articles/06/09/05/2028258.shtml [Reproduced entirely below] Posted by kdawson on Tuesday September 05, @07:59PM >from the at-least-it-wasn't-a-trash-80 dept. It's funny. Laugh. toomanyairmiles writes, "It seems that Wolfgang Priklopil, the communications technician who kidnapped Austrian pre-teen Natascha Kampusch, relied on a Commodore 64 as his primary machine. Interestingly this is presenting some problems to the Austrian computer forensics people. Major General Gerhard Lang of the Federal Criminal Investigations Bureau told reporters it would 'complicate investigators' efforts' and would be difficult to transfer the files to modern computers 'without loss.' Could this be the latest in the criminal world's security strategy? Can we expect to see Spectrums, Archimedes, and Atari STs turning up in police investigations soon?" [Several hundred clueless and a few clueful comments follow-- see the article on slashdot.org, op. cit.] [SF] Laws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice.--Odo (A Man Alone) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531

20 years

3
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PDP-8m Console Switch Problems

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: PDP-8m Console Switch Problems > From: Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com> > Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:11:51 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > *****some snippage done.... >Of the front panel switches, DEPOSIT, EXAM, CONT all work fine. >The CLEAR, EXTD ADDR LOAD, and LOAD ADDR switches are nonfunctional. > >What I see is strange behavior in the debounce circuit, and in fact >the debounce circuit itself is one I have never seen before (and IMHO >the designer should be hung by his entrails). > >In ASCII art, here is a synopsis of the circuit: > > +5V +5V 1/6*7404 > | 1/4*74S175 | |\ > / +-----+-----+ | \ to > 470 \ GND--| Dn Qn |------| >O-----9318 > ohm / | | | / priority > \ GND--|>Clk QBn |O--+ |/ encoder > | | | | > +-------------o| MR~ | | > | +-----+-----+ | > | | | > __O ADDR GND | > O-/ LOAD | > | O------------------------------+ > | > +----+ > | > __O XTND > O-/ LOAD > | O---------->QBn... > | > +----+ > ... > | > __O > O-/ DEPOSIT > | O---------->QBn... >GND If you understand TTL and specifically TTL FFs then this is both logical and sane. Most NON-BUFFERED (74x74, 74x174, 74x175) D-FFs the output is fed back to the opposites input so any overload or transient to ground or Vcc (not safe for device) at the output will affect the devices state. Obviously if either output is "forced" to a state the other will follow inverted. The caveat is if either input cannot change due to internal failure or external logic failure the state will not change but you may see pulses when it tries to change. Pulling to ground is is safe as the output current (top transistor) is limited where the lower transistor can conduct hard. Unorthodox looking but, completely legit. You would get the same effect using a pair of (two from) inverters (7404 for example) cross coupling them and putting a switch across the outputs to debounce the switch. Bottom line is it worked for 30+ years and something else is broken. Now one of the things I've seen with older TTL is inputs that are stuck (likely ESD or other on die failure) to either Vcc or Ground. This could be either the '174 or the gate/inverter they drive is failed this way. >I've replaced the top 74S175 device (originally a Signetics 74S175 >date code 1970) with a socket, and have tried other 74x175 parts >but none work at all (NAT 74LS175 1983, TI 74AS175 1986, SIG 74S175 >1984, TI 74175 1974). Even on the bench in a proto board I can't >get any of these devices to behave like the original. Yanking the >QB~ output to hard ground does not force the Q output high. So >was DEC relying on the aberrant behavior of a 1970 Signetics 74S175? No, I've done this with TI, Signetics, National and others. >I'm about ready to rip out the two bogus '175s and replace them with >some other logic (three '00s if I calculate correctly). > >Anybody have any other ideas on what to look for or at? Check the down stream logic for stuck inputs. When I repaired my 8f (1973 manufacture date) I had several gates with the inputs stuck (the driving gate was ok) where the input was hard high or hard low at the pin and it was the gate itself not driving logic at fault. A milliampmeter confirmed one gate (7400) with pin 1 hard to VCC (Iol was >100ma). Drove me nuts as the first part replaced was a 7474 driving that gate with no fix! I'd give the 7404 the hairy eyeball! A quick test is socket a '175 with the Q and /Q output pins floating and using a jumper to ground make it flip [It WILL NOT IF MR/ is asserted, you can bend out the MR/ pin to avoid that.]. Then test the '04 for input changes output. Allison

20 years

2
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F/S HP 9830A system

by halarewich＠gmail.com

Hello I have for sale a hp9830 calculator/computer system wich includes the hp9830A with some extras from infotek(not sure what), a infotek fd-30 mass memory unit, a hp9862A calc plotter, a hp9866A thermal printer, a hp9869A card reader, all the cables, extra paper for the printer box of extra cards for the reader some cassette tapes for the 9830 hp sys test cassette a hp math pac vol 1 cassette ) all the io hookups 4 the printer plotter card reader and the infotek mass memory unit. plus the following manuals sys test instruction manual dated may 8th 1975, quick ref tp 9830Abasic july 1 1975, plotter control rom manual, printer manual, hp9830A 11272Bextended i/o rom manual, plotter pac, 11274B string variables Rom manual, 11270B matrix operations rom manual, 11278Bbatch basic rom manual, math pac manual, 11279B Advanced programming I rom manual, 11289B Advanced programming II rom manual, 11202A I/O interface Instalationb and service manual. If anybody wants any of this let me know if not clamed in a couple weeks its going to E-bay pictures will be up soon Chris Halarewich

20 years

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Anyone have a datasheet for a Mostek MK5002 4-digit counter/display driver?

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

I have a couple of ancient modules on the shelf here - they are the size of an old 3.5 digit DVM module with 4 MAN71 7-segment displays - I have figured out that the main chip is a Mostek MK5002 counter/display driver, but I can't find any data sheets on Google (just auctions for the chip). I'm guessing that it might have been used in some sort of pinball or arcade machine because of some of the hits I've gotten, but I'd just like to be able to reverse-engineer the pinout of the edge connector on this module. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan

20 years

2
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SGI -> Mips/Irix EOP'd

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Joost wrote >They're a storage company now, IIRC. SGI's going to be adding some machines that are unlikely to be ontopic for many years yet in partenership with BOXX. Not a complete repeat of the VW series, these run Linux. Whee. Here's hoping they get enough back on their feet to get something interesting out again.

20 years

1
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Wilmington, Delaware USA Vintage Swap Meet - Oct 7th 2006

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

Only one month away! 2800 square feet of hard-to-find "classic" computers (pre-internet age), gaming, test equipment, parts and supplies, software, electronics, manuals, and more! DATE: October 7 WHERE: 504 Market Street 2nd floor / Copeland Room Wilmington, Delaware 19801 EVENT STARTS: 10AM EVENT ENDS: 4PM Details: http://marchclub.org/swapmeet.cfm http://marchclub.org/swapmeet_listing.cfm

20 years

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Heathkit H27

by Gary＠realtimecomp.com

Hey! Finally a question I can answer! > Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that > strictly an H11-only device? No, the H-27 was strictly for the H-11. I believe it has a built-in controller (Z-80 based, if I remember correctly) inside the H-27 unit itself. The controller card for the H-11 (or PDP) was a glorified parallel interface. > > Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? > You could always by-pass the built-in controller in the H-27 box, and just interface to the bare drives. Gary

20 years

2
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Transformer question (only slightly OT)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Transformer question (only slightly OT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 00:07:10 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >As a result, I feel wall-warts are dangerous in the UK. They do not >contain na internal fuse, so could in theory draw nearly 30A from the >mains before the circuit fuse failed. The mains transformer primaty of >the wall-wart is supposed to burn out in a safe way, my experience >suggests this is not always the case. Wall warts, least here in USA must be fused internally or have a thermal interupter (usually the blow open). I've forcably opened a number of warts to replace protective devices. For many projects I use a standard 12V regulated DC wart and if higher voltages are required a simple multivibrator or switching regulator driving a suitable hunk of ferrite does nicely. It allows me to work inside without scary high potentials floating around and also solves the problem of "the right transformer". If warrented I bury the HV system in a seperate enclosure on the chassis and bypass the leads so the switching noise is hidden and in the case of tube (valve) designs keeps it looking "correct" while saving the annoying and sometimes messy job of winding a custom mains transformer. >I _never_ use wall-wards plugged straiht into the wall. Putting them on a >fuesed extension lead is somwhat safer. Altough personally I prefer a >decent transformer with fuses in both priamry and secondary circuits. Not a bad thing to do even here. Though I do it to assure all the warts are powered OFF when not in use not so much for safety but wasted power (electric bill). >> Another thing to have on your shop outlets is GFI protection. It could >> save your life. > >It can also be a right royal pain when a main filter has enough >unbalanced current to trip it. Ad it won't protect you if you're >relatively well insulated from ground but manage to connect yourself >between live and neutral or equivalent. Still it's some assistance for some cases. Perfection is a goal. >I use a GFI (RCCD, whatever it's called this week) in placees where there >could be dangerous leakage (sockets for outdoor appliances, in the >darkroom (a mixture of electrics and water, after all :-)), and so on. >But I don't have one on my workbence, nor do I want one. I have a mix of outlets on the bench some GFI protected some not. When I'm testing and working on line powered gear I used the GFI protected. Items that are known and in use I use the direct. Never hurts to have a good isolation transformer too. A recent addition to the bench power is a BIG RED BUTTON for those times when an unambigious off NOW is desired. Power safety is a good thing. Allison

20 years

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Heathkit H27

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Heathkit H27 > From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> > Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 12:30:11 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On 9/7/06, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that >> strictly an H11-only device? > >Dunno about the H8. > >> Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? Yes, if you have the heath interface card as well. If memory serves the standard RT-11 DX.sys was compatable. > >My recollection of debugging some H27 issues a couple of years back is >that there's a boot prom on the Qbus card for the H27. If that's the >case, then as long as it isn't stomping on a bootstrap ROM somewhere >else on the bus, then you should have no problems. Heath's card should >be register-level compatible with either the RXV11 or the RXV21 (can't >remember which one right now). The prom on card can be disabled. It worked well with 11/2 and KDF-11A cpus. The card is RXV-11 compatable. The big upside with the H27 is it would format 8" (RX01) disks. The downside is the drives, the spindle clamp was plastic and would dryout and crack. >My H-11 came with a KDF-11, DEC memory, pretty much DEC >everything; just the Heath backplane and PSU and floppy controller. >The previous owner never booted from floppy, though; he hacked the >case and added an off-to-the-side CD-interconnect and used an RLV11. Thats a ugly hack. Many were upgraded to 11/23 cpu, Q18 ram and some times DLV11j for more IO with fewer boards. >It took a bit of work to get it all back together. I'll bet. Test the PS well, the LVSMPS was not every reliable. Allison

20 years

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Heathkit H27

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Can the H27 (dual 8" floppy drive) be hooked up to an H8? Or was that strictly an H11-only device? Of for that matter, can an H27 be hooked up to a non-heath Micro PDP11? Thanks for any advice! Jay West

20 years

2
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Help ID-ing DOS backup format

by cclist＠sydex.com

Folks, I received a couple of DC6250 backup tapes this morning. While writing a program to unravel the backup format looks to be pretty simple, I'd like to know what created these beasts. They're from a Windoze box circa 1995. The "GENERATION" right at the start might be a hint. Here's a dump of the first few bytes of a tape, hex on the left, ASCII on the right: 000000 47 45 4E 45 52 41 54 49-4F 4E 20 EC E9 C6 F3 F4 GENERATION 8T?=( 000010 F4 E5 C2 20 20 70 6F 73-5F 62 61 63 6B 75 70 5F (s- pos_backup_ 000020 32 39 30 38 39 35 20 20-20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 290895 000030 20 20 20 20 20 20 31 30-3A 32 30 3A 30 31 20 33 10:20:01 3 000040 30 2F 30 38 2F 31 39 39-35 20 4E 20 20 20 0A 31 0/08/1995 N ?1 000050 30 20 31 20 20 20 20 20-20 20 20 30 30 30 30 20 0 1 0000 000060 30 30 30 30 20 43 3A 5C-0A 32 37 20 30 30 30 30 0000 C:\?27 0000 000070 39 46 34 36 20 33 32 43-30 20 31 43 42 46 20 49 9F46 32C0 1CBF I 000080 4F 2E 53 59 53 0A 32 37-20 30 30 30 30 39 34 46 O.SYS?27 000094F 000090 41 20 33 32 43 30 20 31-43 42 46 20 4D 53 44 4F A 32C0 1CBF MSDO 0000A0 53 2E 53 59 53 0A 32 30-20 30 30 30 30 44 35 37 S.SYS?20 0000D57 Anyone got an idea? It's not MSBACKUP, nor SYTOS. Thanks, Chuck

20 years

9
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Vintage Computer Festival 9.0

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

TEN YEARS AGO, a typical home computer system might have been a box with an Intel processor inside running a Microsoft operating system. And there were a few Macs. Today, a typical home computer system might be a box with an Intel processor inside running a Microsoft operating system. And there are a few Macs. What a crock. Give me them old timey computers, damn it! VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 9.0 November 4-5, 2006 Computer History Museum Mountain View, California http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/ Make an entry in your PDA! It is time once again to shun your modern day computing monstrosity and spend a weekend with its venerable ancestors at the ninth annual Vintage Computer Festival. VCF 9.0 takes place on the weekend of November 4-5 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Highlights of this VCF event include: * A celebration of the 30th anniversary of Apple Computer Apple didn't want to do it, so we will! Hosted by Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn, this gala event will feature a bevy of early Apple founders, including the big man himself, Woz! * A reprise of the original Sol-20 prototype Nine years ago, at the very first Vintage Computer Festival, Lee Felsenstein and Bob Marsh reunited after many years to jointly present the original prototype of the Sol-20, which hadn't been seen in public for over 20 years. This year, Lee and a gaggle of Processor Technology alumni will bring back the venerable grand- daddy of all Sol-20s to celebrate this ground-breaking personal computer. By the way, coverage of the first Sol-20 reunion can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/vcf98/vcfpics3.htm * The first Vintage Computer Film Festival That's right, a film festival dedicated to movies and documentaries that have a vintage computing theme! At the past two VCF events we've screened Jason Scott's "BBS Documentary" and Greg Maletic's "The Future of Pinball", as well as "Walking Rainbow", a remembrance of Homebrew Computer Club co-founder Fred Moore. We've decided to take these screenings a step further and turn them into a full-blown film festival to coincide with the VCF. Film buffs will definitely want to take note and stay tuned for further announcements. * Hands-on Build-It-Yourself workshops The VCF is proud to debut the first Build-It-Yourself workshops, featuring the hottest retro-computing and retro-gaming kits out there, including Andre' LaMothe's XGameStation Pico Edition and Bob Armstrong's Cosmac ELF. More details to come soon. * Speakers, Exhibits, and the VCF Marketplace Of course, no VCF would be complete without a terrific line-up of amazing and interesting speakers. This year's bunch includes Paul Saffo of the Institute for the Future, microcomputer historian C. Murray McCullough, Archaeologist and VCF Fellow Christine Finn, and more to come with new speakers being added weekly. We're also receiving submissions for some phenomenal and exciting exhibits. Perhaps you've got a computer you'd like to bring along to show to the world? Sign up to be an exhibitor! Go here: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/exhibit.php And of course we have the ever-fabulous VCF Marketplace featuring hard-to-find items that will start your adrenaline pumping. Bring cash. Lots of cash. * more, More, MORE! Another fantastic celebration is in the works, and I don't think we're done just yet, so watch for upcoming announcements to litter your inbox and check the website for more exciting details to be revealed in the coming hours, days and weeks! Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ P.S. The Macs were then, and are now, much cooler than the PCs ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

20 years

2
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Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? )

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > At 5:13 PM -0700 9/5/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Do the Amiga CD32 pads work? I simply *ASSUMED* > they would be wired > >differently, I didn't bother to try to plug it in . > There was actually one > > I found indication online that the CD32 pads shoul d > work, however, I > can't get any of the fire buttons on the one I hav e > to work. The > directional part seems to sort of work, but I had to > use the space > bar to fire in the game I was playing. > > Zane > I have gotten CD32 pads to work on my Amiga. The red button can be used a a joystick fire button, and one other can *sometimes* be used for games that detect 2 joystick fire buttons. It was only a theory that they might work on other computers. Lke I said in my original mail, some of the wires *may* need swapping to get it to fully work. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

2
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portable printing terminals

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone here aware of one that does do lowercase? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

20 years

5
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SGI -> Mips/Irix EOP'd

by dholland＠woh.rr.com

bye-bye... http://www.sgi.com/support/mips_irix.html Not unsurprising, but I don't think it leaves SGI with much of a product... What's left their Linux Altix's? David

20 years

2
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Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986

by Watzman＠neo.rr.com

Re: "I wouldn't scan (especially post!) them as JPEG images. I'd suggest that you do this the way that Al Kossow does with Bitsavers docs - scan as a 1bpp TIFF" I absolutely disagree with this. These are not product manuals. They are magazines. Much of the interest is in the advertisements. Photos in the magazine are in color. I've been doing a lot of exactly this type of work (40,000+ pages worth) and the right way to do it is to create an Adobe Acrobat PDF file, but the scans should, in my opinion, be color JPEGs for pages with color, and 256 shades of gray grayscale for pages that have no color at all. All scanned at 300 dpi, unless there is a specific reason to scan at a higher resolution. As to the original post, I don't think it's inherently wrong to destroy the magazines for scanning, and they are not all that rare, but neither are they all that commonplace (I have a complete set from the first issue to sometime in the mid 1980's). As to copyrights, they are copyrighted, the copyrights are still valid, the owner (McGraw Hill) still exists and might or might not object (much depends on what is done with them). However, the most likely outcome even if they do object is that they send you a letter asking you to take them down and cease distribution. I can't imagine an actual action against anyone who complies with such a request. By the way, if you do scan them, I'd like very much to have them. -Barry Watzman

20 years

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Nixies, was Re: Octal

by marvin＠rain.org

> From: "Roy J. Tellason" > I wouldn't mind getting some nixies to play with at some point, but it's not > a real high priority item on my list. I did have one assembly that I picked I've found that nixies are not very hard to find; just check out older test equipment. I picked three pieces of test equipment a couple of weeks ago for basically nothing, each of which was working and used nixies for the displays.

20 years

8
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DEC SC008 Star Coupler for trade

by bob＠jfcl.com

I've got a DEC SC008 star coupler, complete with rack, doors, and everything that I'm never going to use. There's no way I'm going to ship it (it's a complete short corporate rack, after all!) so anybody who wants it would have to live within driving distance of Milpitas CA. I'd really like to trade it for an H967 "short" traditional rack. Note that the 967 is neither the taller H960 traditional rack, nor is it the shorter new "corporate" style rack - the 967 is about 50" tall (with casters) and holds 24U. I'd be happy with just the bare rack; I don't need doors or side panels. H967s aren't that common, though, so it's a long shot that I'll find one. Let me know if you're interested in the SC008, even if you don't have one. Thanks, Bob Armstrong

20 years

4
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Recommendations for operating system

by evan＠snarc.net

>>> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. Granted, this is the on- and off-topic list, vs. cctech as frequently (and recently!) noted here. But having said that, and at the risk of starting the you-know-what conversation, I * strongly * disagree with putting "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) into the on-topicness of classiccmp. I know this is supposed to be a vaguely family-friendly list and all, but as for the fucking 10-year-rule, I say let's fucking throw it away and never fucking bring it up again. Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law.

20 years

40
184
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SunOS install docs

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

There are two different "M" files: there's the miniroot, which must be copied to the swap before it's booted with the -sw flag. The other file is MUNIX, which is M(emory resident)UNIX, and fits entirely in RAM with a RAMDISK filesystem. It is what is used to label a disk when the disk is blank and can't be used for the miniroot.

20 years

2
1
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portable printing terminals

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: portable printing terminals > From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> > Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm aware of the TRS-80 PT210 and the TI Silent 700 line of portable >> printing terminals. All are incapable of printing lowercase. Is anyone >> here aware of one that does do lowercase? > >There was an accessory ROM for the Silent 700 series for lower case. >It was not a very nice font. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com What about the DEC LA12, it was a complete KSR printing terminal with/WO modem. Allison

20 years

2
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Joysticks (was Re: Advice on old C64 floppies? )

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote: > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > On Tuesday 05 September 2006 02:56 am, Zane H. > Healy wrote: > > > Still can't find a Joystick (found Joysticks f or > literally every > > > other system today, and I know I have 4+ 2600 > joysticks), > > > > They're the same... > > I know that Commodore made their own joysticks, bu t > everyone I knew during > the C64's heyday simply used Atari 2600 sticks. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > Can't you use Spectrum joysticks too?? Or how about Sega Megadrive or Amiga CD32 pads?? I know it would depend on which pins were used for button and direction detection but they might work... I hate using joysticks these days. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

2
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free HeathKit based systems - CA USA pickup; call by 10-6 or they go.

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

Passing along a Pls. call this guy directly. WILLIAM WEAVER wrote: > Hi > HeathKit based systems > I have some old cpm systems and 1 cpm/dos hybrid s100 bus system. > 8" floppy drives w/floppys, corvus 10meg hard drive, > 5.25" 90k hard sectored drives & floppys. > 5.25" 720k soft sectoreddrives and floppy's > Most documentation/manuals available. > tons of cpm software and very early ibmdos zdos msdos > programs & ops systems. > > any takers > getting ready to dump it all soon one way or another > so please respond by or b4 6 SEPT 06 > > email back or > ask for will 415-468-0960 leave message ok > san fran, ca

20 years

1
0
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Transformer question (only slightly OT)

by cclist＠sydex.com

I have a power transformer that I scavenged out of a 15-year old UPS, so it's probably pretty close to being on-topic. At any rate, I want to use this transformer in a DC power supply. I have three sets of windings: two sets are 120/240v "universal" series/parallel type and the third is 24-0-24v center-tapped. I want to run this from 120vac. Is there any benefit to paralleling the two sets of 120/240v main windings (i.e. 4 120v windings in parallel)? Will it increase the power rating of the unit or is that mostly a function of the secondary winding? Suppose instead of 24-0-24 on the secondary, I'd like 12-0-12. Obviously, one way to get this is to hook the primary (-ies) up as 240v. Is there any benefit to be gained in parallelling the two 240v primaries? Thanks, Chuck

20 years

7
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sunos install docs?

by brad＠heeltoe.com

Does anyone have sunos install docs for 2.0, 3.5 or 4.0 on a sun2? for grins I tried the sun2 emulator with the sun2 tape images I found. I made some guesses about copying the miniroot to the swap parition but could find no joy. (that's a joke, heh, with appologies to bill) I could get the 2.0 tape diags to run and put a label on the disk but running the standalone copy to copy the miniroot to the swap (which I assume is sd(0,0,1)) did not allow to boot - it just took an exception. none of the other tape images (3.5, 4.0) seemed to work. the boot would run but the standalone copy an diags would crash. -brad

20 years

2
1
0 0

z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? > From: "e.stiebler" <emu at e-bbes.com> > Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:13:48 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: >> The Z280 was used on the YASBEC (Yet Another Single Board Computer) and a few >> others that slip my mind. >Pictures I found, show an z180 on the YASBEC :( >The comp.os.cpm FAQ says it is a hd64180 ... >(which we used here to drive a 82768 intel graphics processor) >Was there a z280 version too ? There were really many Yasbc(s). ;) Yes, it was described in TCJ years ago. It was on eurocard with their nice connectors. I have one I did using a section ISA16 bus and ISA 16 for IO, DISK and herc mono video. It was a hexperiment. ;) Allison

20 years

1
0
0 0

Siemens-Nixdorf S400 diskpack, info request

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> I need information about a disk unit Siemens-Nixdorf S400. To what level of detail do you need? The early S400 series were rebadged RCA Spectra 70's It is probably similar to either IBM 2311 or 2314.

20 years

2
1
0 0

Minimal KDJ11 system

by dbetz＠xlisper.com

I am about to drastically cut back on my collection of PDP-11 hardware. After giving away everything on the list posted in another message, I will have the following QBus boards left: M8192 (KDJ11-A) M8059KF (128KW RAM, two) M8047CA (boot, serial, RAM) What I'd like to do is find a small QBus backplane and power supply that will accept these four cards and then use the TU58 emulation software to boot RT-11 over a serial link to a PC. I understand that this will be slow but most of my work with PDP-11s so far has been with the PDT-11/150 and its floppy drives are very slow. Maybe I'll feel right at home! In any case, does anyone have a small QBus backplane and power supply that they are willing to sell or trade?

20 years

2
1
0 0

OT/OT Software??

by jim.isbell＠gmail.com

I am cleaning up and found some old software on 5 1/4" floppies. I was going to put it on Ebay but occured to me maybe someone on this list would be interested in it. But I am almost afraid to speak since it may be Off Topic? Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space."

20 years

2
2
0 0

Cops need C64 help?

by mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA

Friend of mine tossed this URL my way. > http://www.guardian.co.uk/austria/article/0,,1865500,00.html Any C64 people in Austria who may be able to help? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

20 years

1
0
0 0

Data General AV/10000 worth saving ?

by dm.hunt＠ntlworld.com

I've heard from an NHS (UK public health) source that a Data General AV/10000 is to be scrapped sometime in the next six months. The guy laughed and choked at the list price, ?795,000 ... As far as I can ascertain, it has 32 x Motorola 88000 processors, a huge SCSI disc array and a lot of RAM (could mean anything) and runs a flavour of UNIX. But the whole thing has gone cranky (a technical term ?) and with NPFIT (National Programme For Information Technology) (a ?37 billion government IT project looked set to replace all IT in the NHS) the DG box will become redundant next year anyway. Is it worth rescuing ? Bear in mind I would probably have to pay the equivalent scrap value. It also sounds quite big too, I can't find any idea of the size on Google... There is also a AV/25000 going end of next year, I think that is too new for this list though (PIII Xeon), plus it's probably outside of my price range... Dave ;)

20 years

3
2
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[Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion]

by bqt＠softjar.se

joe heck <trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu> wrote: > Folks, I asked similar questions directly and got the following answers. > So, don't know if it is RT, RSX, or RSTS, or even a flavor of Unix. > > Joe Heck Hmm. Noone seem to ask the most obvious questions... The original poster said it was a HP PDP 11/64. Now, HP never made any computers with a PDP moniker, Digital did. And Digital never made a PDP computer with the 11/64 designation. I would suggest that we start at that end. What machine is this *really*? As for questions about transferring the data... Is the machine still functional or not? If it is, then it would obviously be easiest to just type the file out (it's a text file after all). Size of disks (someone asked). If we're talking MSCP disks, the largest I know of is the RA73, which weights in at 2 GB. (Unless you want to count SCSI drives...) Copying to a Linux system? Sure you can do that, but I wouldn't. VMS would probably be way better if it's actually from some PDP system, since VMS can actually read some of the file systems it might be in then. But this might be something not at all related to DEC equipment after all... Johnny

20 years

3
2
0 0

PDP8 and Z-machine engine

by bqt＠softjar.se

woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> However, have you ever programmed on a PDP-8? >>> If so, you would realize that it really requires you to do things a bit >>> different from what people nowadays do. >>> You have 4K word pages. One word is 12 bits. The addressing style of >>> instructions really limit most routines to what you can fit into 128 >>> words. No stack... > > >Well 12 bits holds 2 6 bit chars nicely :) >I suspect the best way to do this is to convert Z-machine >data into something better suited for 12/24 bit processing. Hmm, I'm not sure how easy it would be to convert the game files in a way that would be good here... Text data would be nice to change, but other stuff you'd want to keep the way it is. But this would cause stuff to move around, so you'd really get into trouble. Nah, I suspect you'll want to leave the game files as they are... >>> Well, there are a lot of things to play around with. >>> Like I said, it wouldn't be difficult to write a Z-machine interpreter >>> for the PDP-8, but you'd better not base it on something written in C. >>> You might pick an idea or two from Frotz, for instance, but you'd have >>> to rewrite that as well to fit with the PDP-8. > > >Well the PDP-8 is easy to program in -- 8 instructions types. :) Depending on how you look at it, yes. You have six instructions that have an address argument, one I/O instruction, and one operator instruction. But the IOT leaves most of the bits free for interpretation by the device, and the OPR instruction is bit-coded, so it's really a lot of instructions. >>> And you have almost no OS to support you either, so you'd have to >>> implement the I/O as well, and figure out which, if any, clock you have, >>> if you want to implement timed input. > > >Oddly you have better OS support now with the emulators and >some new-ish hardware that uses ide drives. Huh? What are you talking about? You'll still have the emulator running OS/8, and nothing else. (Well, you could write it for RTS-8 for a different environment with support for more hardware, but I doubt anyone would to that.) OS/8 is a very limited OS. Whatever underlying hardware you use is irrelevant. It's all a question of what you're emulating, and I would recommend that your code works on atleast a few different combinations of hardware. Johnny

20 years

2
1
0 0

Resistors

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

I have a vaguely sorted pile of 1/4 and 1/8 watt carbon comp and metal film resistors available for postage plus a token amount for my time. The pile is about two pounds. Any interest? Replies off list, please... -- Will

20 years

1
0
0 0

SunOS Install docs

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Brad asked about SunOS2. I have no documents for that release, but SunOS 4s recommended install proceedure bypasses standalone copy in favor of MUNIX and dd. To load MUNIX you run >bst() Boot: st(,,4) which loads MUNIX into ram. From there, you make devices, if necessary, run format to label your disks, and then dd the miniroot off with mt -f /dev/nrst0 fsf3 dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=/dev/rsd0b bs=48k you boot the miniroot with b sd(,,1) -sw Standalone copy syntax is >b st() Boot: st(,,2) Copy from: st(,,3) Copy to: st(,,1) then reset and boot miniroot.

20 years

2
1
0 0

HP 2934A Printer Manual Needed

by technobug＠comcast.net

Cleaning house and came across said printer. Appears to work great and has an RS232 interface. However I really need the owners/ programming manual to make use of it. CRC

20 years

2
1
0 0

Stuff available in NH

by dbetz＠xlisper.com

I'm cleaning out my basement and am finally admitting to myself that I'm not going to have enough spare time to make use of all of the equipment I've accumulated over the years. I would like to offer the following list of equipment to the list. Some of the items are too large to pack and ship. I would like them picked up in Bedford, NH 03110. This includes all of the PDP-11 equipment and the Sun 386i workstation. Some of the other stuff could be packed shipped at the new owner's expense. I'm basically offering this stuff for free to anyone who wants it. The only thing I would be interested in acquiring in trade is an LK201 keyboard and a VR201 monitor to use with my DECmate III+. Even that might be available after I've had a change to play with it a little. Anyway, here is the list. Please contact me at dbetz at xlisper.com if you are interested in any of this equipment. Thanks, David Betz

20 years

1
0
0 0

z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? > From: "e.stiebler" <emu at e-bbes.com> > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:38:17 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >David Griffith wrote: >> I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a >> "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: >> >> P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs >> ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. > >Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? >A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of >any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? Never saw a real Z380. However I have several Jrev Z280s in CP/M based projects. The Z280 was used on the YASBEC (Yet Another Single Board Computer) and a few others that slip my mind. Allison

20 years

2
1
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Modern CP/M machine classic?

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. Replica I: An Apple I clone with modern parts replacing the discontinued parts of the original SBC1620: Uses the Harris 1620 CPU to create something roughly equivalent to a PDP8e. An optional near clone of the PDP8e front panel is/was also available. Has an IDE port to use modern hard drives or CF cards for storage. Other machines to consider are completely new, but are designed and built with classic computing in mind. Specifically I mean the half-dozen or so machines built from discrete TTL chips. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

20 years

5
8
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z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: z180, z2780, z380 was: Re: Modern CP/M machine classic? > From: David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 17:03:50 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Mon, 4 Sep 2006, e.stiebler wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >> > I was wondering if a recently made machine intended to be used as a >> > "classic" computer qualifies as a "classic" here. Here are some examples: >> > >> > P112: A Z180 single board computer still available brand-new which runs >> > ZSDOS and probably straight CP/M too. >> >> Were there any SBCs with the later z280 & z380 chips ? >> A short google search didn't find anything. So, anybody here knows of >> any SBC with the z280, z380 (or similar ?) chips ? > >I've been pondering a redesign of the P112 for a while. I'll probably >investigate using a z280 or z380 for a brand-new design. The biggest problem doing a Z280 design is finding enough late rev Z280s. The z280 in it's early revs had a number of bugs that impacted the MMU and cache. However, if you find enough parts it's a interesting varient of the z80 line with a 16bit wide data bus, 24bit addressing, MMU and I&D space. It's instruction set is enhanced as well. Despite all that it's fully Z80 upward compatable and will run most z80 binaries found in the Z80 CP/M world. FYI: fast parts are in the 12.5 to 16mhz range. Allison

20 years

1
0
0 0

PDP8 and Z-machine engine

by bqt＠softjar.se

Christian Corti <cc at corti-net.de> skrev: On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about that, and > > > doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult either. Given a > > > little time I sure could whip one together, but for now I'll leave the > > > exercise to someone else. > > > I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals with > > > anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no graphics, no > > > mouse...) > > There I completely disagree! I've ported the Z-machine interpreter from > InterTaskForce (written in C, and really good if you want to understand > how the interpreter works) to the IBM 5110 (written in PALM assembler), > including paging etc. But until now nobody else has ever wanted to try it > on his 5110/5120... Seems all 5110 owners don't want to use their machines. :-) However, have you ever programmed on a PDP-8? If so, you would realize that it really requires you to do things a bit different from what people nowadays do. You have 4K word pages. One word is 12 bits. The addressing style of instructions really limit most routines to what you can fit into 128 words. No stack... Well, there are a lot of things to play around with. Like I said, it wouldn't be difficult to write a Z-machine interpreter for the PDP-8, but you'd better not base it on something written in C. You might pick an idea or two from Frotz, for instance, but you'd have to rewrite that as well to fit with the PDP-8. And you have almost no OS to support you either, so you'd have to implement the I/O as well, and figure out which, if any, clock you have, if you want to implement timed input. Johnny

20 years

3
2
0 0

Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule)

by swtpc6800＠comcast.net

I recently got a book titled High-Speed Computing Devices 1st ED. 1950. This is a design survey of how to build an electronic digital computer and has schematics of gates, adders and accumulators done in vacuum tubes. At the time there were around 10 working computer in the U.S. I have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter circuit implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October 1955 Radio & Television News. (50 year rule.) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm It is almost the same circuit Don Lancaster implemented with RTL ICs in the February 1968 issue of Popular Electronics. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1968/PE_Feb1968.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley

20 years

12
28
0 0

Apple SCSI

by THX1138＠dakotacom.net

Hi, I want to move my scanners over to one of these Macs (probably the 840AV since I can also exploit the video capabilities thereof). But, it's got those wacky DB25 SCSI connectors. :-/ I have DB25-Centronics cables. And, DB25-HD50 adapters. The scanners have a hodge-podge of *different* connectors (sheesh! talk about "standards"... :< ). I assume a good goal is to minimize *connections* wherever possible. So, instead of DB25-HD50 adapter to HD50 cable, use DB25-HD50 cable, if possible. But, I'm nervous about the DB25's and their roles in all this. Is this just a regular SCSI (narrow, SE) bus with a few less returns? Or, are there other consequences of this connector choice? E.g., how much grief can I expect going *through* the slide scanner with DB25 coming in and Centronics going out? Is this just effectively a "DB25-Centronics" adapter with a device tap in the middle? Thanks! --don

20 years

7
19
0 0

Stuff available II

by djg＠pdp8.net

Since TI 340 stuff was was people were most interested in there are also some TI 32010/20/C30 manuals in the pile. Those are the earlier DSP chips. Let me know if I should grab them. Same you pay shipping from 20817

20 years

1
0
0 0

Want: Sun-2 System

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> Looking for a Sun-2 system for vintage apps. Someone at MIT wrote a Sun-2 simulator. http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~fredette/tme/

20 years

2
1
0 0

Transformer question (only slightly OT)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > My father built himself a board which was simila r > but more elaborate: > > he could select among (1) a small (7.5W?) light > bulb, (2) a large > > (100W?) light bulb, (3) a high-wattage heating > element that was still > > under the breaker trip current for that mains > circuit (an iron, I > > think), or (4) no limiter at all. > > Another useful limiter (to repleace (3) in your > setup is a 1000W tungsten > halogen bulb (e.g. one of those 'security lamps'. > They're pretty cheap > now). > >> snip << > > -tony > Tungsten bulbs cheap??!!!! The ones we have to buy for equipment at our lab cost like ?500 (GBP). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

2
1
0 0

[Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion]

by brad＠heeltoe.com

If the disk will spin up, and it has a unibus interface, like a UDA-50, then i would move it to a working 11/44, boot up unix and make an image copy of the disk and then copy it over the network to a linux computer. no doubt a skilled vms person could do the same with vms. (because, well, how big could the disk image be? :-) Or you could jam a unibus scsi card in and copy an image of the disk to a JAZZ drive. Once the image is on a linux machine you have (as we all know) a large number of forensic tools... Not the least of which is simh, which you could possible use to boot the original os. Worst case you should be able to extract files from the file system with putr or other tools. heh. send me the disk and I'll take a crack at it. I think we need a picture of the disk drive to identify what it is. (and here's to hoping it's not an RP or RM drive :-) -brad

20 years

1
0
0 0

commodore 64/128 question

by dgreelish＠mac.com

On Sep 1, 2006, at 11:23 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > > My personal advice, get a C64, or maybe a C64c, skip the C128. I'm > saying > this not because I have anything against the C128, but because it > will be > different from what you remember. Plus as has been pointed out, it > does > take up more desktop space. > > My "fondness" for the VIC-20 has been replaced with a "fondness" > for the C64 > (a machine I hated when I was using the VIC-20, which was through > mid-1986). > I really want to setup my one nice C64 system, I mean I *REALLY* > want to set > it up. Unfortunatly I don't have the space, and truth be told, the > time. I > also really want to setup an Apple // of some sort, most likely a // > gs, but > there is the same problem. > > I need to find a really good excuse to set up one or the other, and > so far I > haven't found one. > > Zane I agree with this, the C64 or a 64C (I had both) represent the height of Commodore 8-bit, though I have always wanted a 128D. There are supposedly "mint" in box examples of these on eBay right now. VIC-20 too. The 128 does have the Z-80 for CP/M though, if that interests you. David DavidGreelish classiccomputing.com The Home of Classic Computing Podcast and Computer History Nostalgia

20 years

6
9
0 0

[Fwd: Re: 11/64 conversion]

by trash3＠splab.cas.neu.edu

Folks, I asked similar questions directly and got the following answers. So, don't know if it is RT, RSX, or RSTS, or even a flavor of Unix. Joe Heck -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: 11/64 conversion Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 12:57:43 -0400 From: Shreekrishna <skrishna at ncsu.edu> To: joe heck <trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <44FC51AB.1020600 at splab.cas.neu.edu> Hello, I have only small information. My advisor was using the computer long back. Now the computer is in University of Texas austin. He said that the data is in PDP computer and our research group need the data . SO we need to convert the data. It is in some ASCII format though I dont know the type. So i need to ask .can the data be converted to recent file formats. File type is some ascii format. It was read from a machine. so they are basically read from the machines. compueter boot and we have the hard disc and floopy in which the data is stored. So tell me...how shall i go about...do reply thanks shree. joe heck wrote: > What is the operating system? > What are the file types or extensions? > What program created them? > What peripherals are on the PDP computer? > Does the computer boot? > How much data are you talking about? > > You need to post the answers as best as you can to these questions > before most people will even try to help. > > Joe

20 years

1
0
0 0

Want: Sun-2 System

by steve＠radiorobots.com

Hi, Looking for a Sun-2 system for vintage apps. Please contact me off-list if you know of any for sale. Thanks, Steve Boston

20 years

2
1
0 0

Apple power supply

by nico＠farumdata.dk

During an inexplicable urge to do some cleaning up, I found a powersupply for which I have no need. I believe it comes from an Apple (GS II?), and is identified as ASTEC, model AA13591 Input : 230V at 63W, 50/60 Hz. Output : V1 : +5VDC at 4.0Amp; V2 : +12VDC at 2.5Amp; V3 : -5VDC at 0.25Amp; V4 : -12VDC at 0.25Amp. It worked when I dismembered the system it came from. You can have it for P&P ; net weight 1250g Nico

20 years

1
0
0 0

PDP8 and Z-machine engine

by bqt＠softjar.se

David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> skrev: > On Sun, 3 Sep 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote: > > > > > > Frotz??? > > > Why on earth base it on Frotz? Frotz is written in C. You'll never get > > > anything meaningful written in C to run on a PDP-8. > > > Something written in Z80 assembly is just about equally meaningless. > > I mentioned Frotz because it seems to be used as a base for all sorts of > strange ports. The Z80 reference was part generalization and part wishful > thinking. You might be right there. :-) > > > No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about > > > that, and doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult > > > either. Given a little time I sure could whip one together, but for now > > > I'll leave the exercise to someone else. > > > I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals > > > with anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no > > > graphics, no mouse...) > > Where can I find this MACRO-11 interpreter? ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/zemu.tar Johnny

20 years

1
0
0 0

commodore 64/128 question

by dougcoward＠hotmail.com

Jay, I don't see any record of your original post of this question in the cctalk digest, so I'm switching over to the cctech list. The only post on this subject is Ray's reply today. In reply to your question, I worked on the software for the Quantum Link online service including fast loader disk routines. We gave the C64 a pretty good work out, and the software ran just fine on the C128/1571. The only machine we had problems with was the SX64 where the fast loader would hang shortly after starting a disk load. They hadn't terminated the serial bus correctly which caused some ringing in the lines. But by pressing your finger against the serial bus port connector or by connecting a serial bus cable to the serial port the load would continue and finish. Remember that many pieces of C64 software back then used unimplemented opcodes in their protection schemes. I don't believe that the C128 had any problem with this software. --Doug >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 12:29:13 -0400 >From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> >Subject: Re: commodore 64/128 question >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Message-ID: <44F9B159.3030204 at arachelian.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >By all means, go for the C128. They're a lot better. >....................... >

20 years

9
27
0 0

PDP8 and Z-machine engine

by bqt＠softjar.se

David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote: > On Sat, 2 Sep 2006, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >>Interesting. Looking (very quickly) at the Z-machine spec, it seems >>fairly simple. This gives me a good excuse to start on my PDP-8 >>emulator again - at least that way if I need more core, I just need to >>change a #define instead of starting a big long thread about >>semiconductor memory ;-) > > I don't mean to discourage you, but you might be in for more challenge > than you bargained for. I asked Brian Moriarty about the feasability of > porting a modern Z-machine emulator to 6502 machines such as the Commodore > 64 and Apple IIe. He replied that past V3, the abilities of these > machines were seriously taxed and that's why Infocom abandoned that class > of machines for their later work. The full discussion can be found in the > Frotz documentation. Based on this, I don't recommend using Frotz as a > starting point. > > Look instead at ZXZVM, a Z-machine emulator written in Z80 assembly for > PCW machines. It should be reasonably easy to port to CP/M and/or ZSDOS. > I'd love to see that one for my P112. Doing that may provide enough > insight to port it to the PDP8. Frotz??? Why on earth base it on Frotz? Frotz is written in C. You'll never get anything meaningful written in C to run on a PDP-8. Something written in Z80 assembly is just about equally meaningless. No, you'd just have to write it from scratch. Nothing strange about that, and doing something about V4 and V5 games isn't that difficult either. Given a little time I sure could whip one together, but for now I'll leave the exercise to someone else. I've already written one Z-machine interpreter in MACRO-11. It deals with anything V1 to V8, except for obvious limitations (no sounds, no graphics, no mouse...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years

3
2
0 0

C128-1571 questions

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

>From out in left field.. Questions and opinions solicited on Commodore C128/1571. In my ecelectic collection of machines I generally have either DEC hardware, single board computers (IMSAI IMP48, KIM-1, SC/MP, Moto6800d1, NEC TK80 and others) and CP/M machines (S100, Ampro, SB180, Kaypro, Epson, Osborne). Also the occasional oddball like the TI99/4, TRS80 and a C128. What I'm up to is why have a C128 amoung all that? It's not a great CP/M machine. It's not very representitive of most CP/M machines and from using it it's an afterthought that primary to design. So I'm considering why I should keep it or unload it. I have no real exposure to the 6502 side of the system and the Commodore side of the world so there are gaps there. So I'm trying to figure out if there is something to explore and use or it's a "collection" item. The latter being something I have, keep operational but rarely if ever use for much. Flames not desired but opinions are. Allison

20 years

2
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Apple SCSI

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

I had heard that Apple did the DB-25 thing because the HD-50 hadn't been standardized yet and they didn't have enough back-panel real estate on the Plus for a 50-pin ribbon/Centronics type. Better Apple SCSI cables have enough girth to where I think they have the grounds internally, but they are wired in the connectors up to fewer pins, or the shield, or somesuch hack. For simple scanner use, a well-shielded (thick-girth) everyhing-connected DB-25 to DB-25 is something that I've used in the past. The Apple SCSI implementation is not pushing the performance boundary at all on the external port, I think it's asynchronous SCSI-1. Q950s and many PowerMacs have dual-SCSI, so your scanner can be on "substandard" wiring without messing up your drive chain, not sure about the 800 or 840. I have an interesting SCSI cable - its a ribbon/pin-header but has shields for "external" use. I think it might have gone with the ComputerVision CADDstation that I gave away (that had all pin-header connections with some sort of funky ground wipe that would connect the shield on this cable.) Was this ever something approaching standard, or was this CV proprietary (or was it not CV SCSI and just looks like it)?

20 years

4
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Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrot e: > > Yeah, but it's often hidden. > > Not by default. > If it has been hidden, it is because somebody > explicitly and deliberately > was trying to keep you away from it. > Without user intervention Win2K installations will > have it in accessories. > I had another search for "calculator" today to find out what directory it was stored in. In the same directory I also found a Paint program and one other program, which I can understand why they would hide them >from us. But we work in a lab and do calculations on a *daily* basis. Most of them are done by the computers (special program made by Scibertec), but some calc's we do manually. >> snip << > > > Now whenever I need it and it's not listed > > under applications (we move about alot in the > > lab and use diff computers each week), I just > > do a quick filesearch, dump it on the desktop > > and on the main drop-up (?) menu that appears > > when you click on the Start button, incase > > I have a screen full of windows. > > Now almost everyone uses it (largely because > > calc's are so hard to find in the lab). > WHY BOTHER?? > Go to Start/Run and type Calc. Didn't know you could do that. > or > Go to the command line, and type Calc. > Not sure we have permission [1] to go into the CLI mode, and perhaps we might get suspicious looks if we did. > > The "scientific" mode includes binary, octal, > > hex and decimal, aswell as proper maths > > functions. > > Yes, but it refuses to do anything but integers in > anything other than > decimal! > > 3.0h/2.0h gives 1.8h, NOT 1.0 > 11 binary/10 binary is 1.1 binary, NOT 1 > 3.14159decimal is NOT 3h. > No offense intended, but are you sure it's not set up for no decimal places, or perhaps it's just MS's programmers being lazy? :) I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... do they exist and/or serve a purpose, or was it just a demonstrate your point? [1] We don't have permission to alter the computers time, as it's part of a very large network. Certain drives (eg. drive M: ) are also locked away (not even displayed on "My Computer"). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

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Bugs T-shirt

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Hey, I've got an old T-shirt that doesn't fit me a nd > is destined to hit the > rag pile. It's a "Getting out the last bugs" shir t > with "SunStruck 4.1.89 > (Wanda)" on the back. Is this of any historical > value or is it better used to wax the Volvo? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Any chance of a pic? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

1
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Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128question)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Commodore hacking and hardware tricks (was Re: commodore 64/128question) > From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> > Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 13:32:51 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >At 12:55 PM -0700 9/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 9/3/2006 at 8:42 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> What's a good substitute drive mechanism for the 1541/71? The drives >>>that >>>> come as factory original are pretty chintzy. Funny, I was just looking at the 1571 and it's a Newtronics/Mitsumi 48TPI two sided unit. The 1541 is from what I read a different beast. >>>I'm not sure you'd be able to swap it out - isn't the head preamp on the >>>1541 >>>motherboard, not a separate drive interface board? >>> >>Indeed it is. I hoped that perhaps generations of C128 hackers had found a >>way around this by now. Silly me. > >I think it's called hooking your C64/128 up to a PC via a X1541 (or >newer) cable, and using the PC as a drive via the appropriate >software. This is one of the solutions I'm thinking of trying. >Apparently it allows you to use the PC as a 1541, and to use emulator >images. Must be images as the '41 is GCR, the 1571 does do GCR and regualar soft sector. Allison

20 years

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Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > We have a winner! (very nicely done!) > It shall be your responsibility to answer for > Andrew B <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> 's > next query topic, and seeing to it that he follows > this. Hehe, I was gonna try and answer the first question, but I admit I had no clue about q's 2 or 3. I don't no what the IEEE format is, but I'd guess it would be Integer, Exponent, Exponent, Exponent? Besides, without a computer (or appropriate calculator) it would have taken ages to work out the binary for question 1 (the initial few bits would have been easy but the rest... urgh!). Also.... in binary with binary points what would the bits be known as that were below the binary point? If we have a value of say 11.111 which would be the first bit (bit 0)? The 2nd one (reading left to right) or the 5th one (far right)? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

8
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Scanning "Results"

by THX1138＠dakotacom.net

Hi, I spent a few hours last night playing with different scanning options and figured I would share my observations. Definitely not a "scientific experiment" but, rather, "just tinkering". Image in question was just a page of text -- probably 8-10pt. Laid out in two columns, quite a bit of whitespace. The original image dimensions are about 8.5x12" (yes, 12, not 11). [Sorry, in retrospect I should have used an 8.5x11 image as this would be easier for most folks to relate to :< Instead, I just set the scanner to scan half the available area (it's a B-size scanner)] First, I did a monochrome scan at 400dpi (which is where I tend to do most of my scans). The resulting TIFF file was 2MB. When viewed "on screen", the TIFF file (i.e., eliminating any effects of the scanner software) was quite readable. No signs of jaggies, etc. I ran that image through various compressors (still sticking with TIFF). "Packed bits" yielded a file size of 360K -- as did Huffman encoding. LZW dropped this to 220K. CCITT3-1D encoding dropped it to 217K while CCITT3-2D brought it down to 131K. And, CCITT4 brought it down to 100K. I then ran the same image at 800dpi (what the heck, let's live dangerously!!). As expected, the original TIFF grew to 8M. The CCITT4 variant grew to 250K. (I didn't bother with all the other encodings as these two represent the aparent extremes of monochrome representations *EASILY* AVAILABLE TO ME). Next, I scanned the same image at 400dpi in *color*. A 24 bit TIFF took a whopping 55MB. (can you say, "Sorry, but we don't got no bananas..."). I then tried to save the image as a JPEG -- *guessing* at appropriate compression/smoothing factors to get the resulting image size down to ~1MB. (for reference, ASSUMING THESE "settings" ARE PORTABLE, 4:2:2, 77 compression, 10 smoothing, optimized but NOT progressive). I got lucky (?) and this first pass gave me a 530K image. With the 250KB *800*dpi B&W C4 TIFF in mind, I decided to push the file size even smaller. (compression increased to 90) This resulted in a 360K image. Even more squeezing (compr = 95) got this down to 250K. However, the *quality* of the image was very disappointing! The 530KB version was quite "fuzzy" (not "jaggies", since JPEGs are more continuous tone than a B&W TIFF, but, rather, "blurry"). The 360KB version began introducing noticeable artifacts that were clearly not present in the original image. This got worse in the 250K version. Bottom line: the 100KB B&W TIFF was much better looking than even the 530KB JPEG. And the 250KB B&W TIFF was so "fine" that I suspect it is overkill (I doubt anyone or anyTHING -- i.e. software -- could discriminate between that at 800dpi and the 400dpi version). I had earlier tried some gr[ea]y scale scans and convinced myself I must be doing something wrong (as the sizes were just so much larger) so I didn't pursue them. In hindsight, a more scientific approach would try to JPEG encode those monochrome representations as well. (I'm through experimenting as I have the answer *I* want/need) Somehow, I doubt they will prove to be more economical than the C4 TIFFs. [N.B. the gr[ea]yscale scans are much "softer" on the eyes (no doubt due to the continuum of "value")] So, to answer *my* initial question (ages ago), 400dpi C4 TIFFs are definitely "adequate". 800dpi are overkill. And, at ~100KB per page, they are quite "affordable". We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

20 years

5
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System 96 (Measurement Systems Ltd.)

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

In dropping off some loaned manuals to someone earlier, I came away with a System 96 box by mistake :-) It's a nice STE bus crate (approx 16-way, without going back downstairs to count) using 3U Eurocards - the nice thing about this one being that it runs OS-9 rather than some proprietary OS/application (as is often the case with Eurocard boxes that are generally aimed at the industrial control market) As well as a 5.25" floppy drive, the machine has a small ST506 hard disk in it running via a SASI bridge (I can only see the underside at the moment, but judging by the connector pin locations it's probably an Emulex) I've got the following boards: 6809 CPU + control ROM SASI HBA + parallel + 2 x serial (for internal disk via bridge) SASI HBA + parallel + 2 x serial (for external SASI devices) FDC Memory (128KB) Memory (128KB) Memory (128KB) Memory (128KB) It was working when last used (which wasn't that long ago; it belonged to someone who still got occasional support jobs for STE bus equipment, and was their backup OS-9 box). I've got various floppies for it, but at present no documentation - that's currently packed up many miles away at the chap's other premises. Which begs the question - anyone have one of these systems with the docs, and can tell me: a) DIP switch settings for the serial lines, so I know which is the console and what line settings to use. b) DIP switch settings for the memory boards. One switch on one of the boards is jammed halfway between open and closed, so needs putting right before I try and get some life out of the machine. cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw

20 years

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IBM AS400 Backup Docs

by Steve＠oceanrobots.net

Hi, Can anyone point me to a copy of "/IBM AS400 Programming: Backup and Recovery Guide/", IBM Form # SC21-8079-0 from June 1988 ? Have tried all the obvious; told that "things don't go back that far". Not exactly a personal machine, but it quals under the 10 year rule. Thanks, Steve

20 years

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A/UX 1.0

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Gordon wrote: >will any version of A/UX run on a Powerbook 180? Nope, no Powerbooks, no LCs (including Classics), no 68LC040 machines, no IIs without PMMUs, no AV Macs. Will run on SE/30, II+68851, II(c,f)x, IIci, IIsi, Quadra {700, 800, 900, 950, 650, 610+FPU} Not sure about IIvx, IIvi, Performa 600. Later models needed later versions, 1.x was only II+851, IIx, IIcx, 2.x ran on almost all the IIs (you need the latest 2.x for the fx), 3.x runs on the IIs and Quadras.

20 years

3
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commodore 64/128 question

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

<snip> > So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a > > C64, > will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a > 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to > play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd best > just stick with getting a C64. > > Advice? > > Jay For all intents and purposes the 128 will work as a 64 without incident. What you get with the 128 is faster file processing when used in conjuntion with a RAM expansion and 1571/1581 drives. THe OS is newer so you get BASIC 4 in 128 mode which I find useful. I switch to 64 mode only to play games. The C 128 is the most-used computer in my old computer work. For example, I can use it as a bridge between the B-128 world and the PC world. B128-->IEEE-->sfd-1001-->IEEE/serial adapter-->C128-->1571-->1581- ->720K drive PC-->Internet Bill D

20 years

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commodore 64/128 question

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

I was an avid C64 user, ran a C64 bbs for years, etc. etc. But when I got rid of it years ago, one never made it back in to my collection as I focus more on mini's than micros'. I find myself wanting to acquire a C64 for my collection and gaming fun, as that was the system I had. However, as I understand it, the C128 has a C64 emulation mode which allows it to run C64 software. I never had a C128 and don't know anything about it. So, my question is - for the c128 people... if I really just want a C64, will the C128's C64 emulation be 100% and make me happy? If so I'd like a 128 as long as I'm going for a C64 so I have some extra functionality to play with. But if the C128 won't run 100% of the C64 software, then I'd best just stick with getting a C64. Advice? Jay

20 years

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Inside my A600

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > >> snip << > > Missing item from XU1 - there is an outline (in > white) clearly visible, with small circular metal > marks above and below where the component > should be. The outline looks a bit like this: > ______________________ > |_ | > _) | > |______________________| > > > Anyone have any idea whether this should be > missing or not? Is it possible to get my hands > on the plans (schematics?) for the PCB? > I have since discovered that the component at XU1 was apparently used to correct a timing bug with earlier Gayle revisions, ergo there is no need for it on my PCB. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

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Another C64 Question

by billdeg＠degnanco.com

Zane, wcopy+ by CMD is very easy to use. The package containing the program wcopy+ is called "CMD Utilities" WCOPY+ alows me to copy files from the 1571 (as drive 9) to a 720K PC-formatted diskette on a 1581 (as drive 10). I load wcopy+ on drive 8 first, write to a 720K PC formatted diskette in drive 10 (1581 drive). From the 720K disk you can move files to modern computer. WCOPY+ can take advantage of the extra memory of the c128 to do the copy operations faster than a c64. If you have a RAM expansion all the better. Bill D >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 11:03:37 -0700 >From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> >Subject: Another C64 Question >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Message-ID: <a06200727c11f6f6c247a(a)[192.168.1.199]> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >What solutions are people using to get data on and off of their C64's? > >In the past I was able to use my old 486 with a X1541 cable and a >dedicated 1541 drive. I also had a Catweasel in my Amiga (still have >both, but the A3000 is back in its original case with no room for a 5 >1/4" drive, and up in storage), but found it to be less than a >perfect solution, at least at that time. > >I really like the look of a MMC64 (MMC adapter for the 64), but they >seem to be sold out. > > Zane

20 years

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Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote : > > Hehe, I was gonna try and answer the first > > question, but I admit I had no clue about q's > > 2 or 3. I don't no what the IEEE format is, > > but I'd guess it would be Integer, Exponent, > > Exponent, Exponent? > > I think that you would enjoy: > Schaum's Outline Series : Essential Computer > Mathematics by Seymour > Lipschutz ISBN:0-07-037990-4 > It's a much more comfortable casual read than Rose n, > etc. > Thanks. I'll see if I can find that. > > Do you understand 2's complement notation? > > IEEE floating point has > 1 bit for sign (an actual sign bit!, rather than 2 's > complement), > 8 bits for exponent (power of TWO to be multiplied > to the mantissa, > stored as a "biased" number, NOT sign bit, nor 2's > complement) > 23 bits for 24 bit mantissa (when normalized, the > high order bit is known, > and doesn't need to be stored) (Lipschutz has a > minor error on that!) > Well, I already new about signed and unsigned bytes/numbers. But the rest I don't follow 100% (not sure what mantissa is). I have learnt alot in recent years, some from groups/email lists like this and other stuff >from my recently acquired collection of 80 Microcomputing (aka 80 Micro) - I now have issues 1 to 60 (just got the last 40 to get) ;) > > Besides, without a computer (or appropriate > > calculator) it would have taken ages to > > work out the binary for question 1 (the initial > > few bits would have been easy but the rest... > > urgh!). > > with practice, it gets easier, like any other bina ry > conversion > Like lot's of things in life, the more you do it the better/quicker you are a it. > > > > Also.... in binary with binary points what would > > the bits be known as that were below the > > binary point? > > If we have a value of say 11.111 which would > 3.875 3 7/8 > If you have CARPENTRY experience, then making .875 > out of one half, plus > one quarter, plus one eighth becomes more obvious > > be the first bit (bit 0)? The 2nd one (reading > > left to right) or the 5th one (far right)? > > There isn't a fixed standard for naming them. > Some people use 0 through 7 (or whatever) for the > bits to the left of the > binary point, and use NEGATIVE numbers for the bit s > to the right, which > keeps the bit "name" matching the power of two. > But, not everybody likes to do it that way. > That sounds like a sensible way to me. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

2
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Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal)

by rickb＠bensene.com

My idea of the best calculator on the desktop is an HP 9100A/B or 9810, 9820, or 9830, Wang 720C, IME-86S, or a Tektronix 31. No native octal, but they can be programmed to do octal math. It's on-topic, these things are over 30 years old. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com

20 years

3
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A/UX 1.0

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> just curious on what 1.0 looks like http://www.aux-penelope.com/AUX_1.0.htm This pre-dates the MAE.

20 years

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Livermore Swapmeet

by marvin＠rain.org

Tomorrow (Sunday) is the monthly Livermore swapmeet, and I'll again be going up there to drop stuff off. I'll have a spot there to get rid of jun^h^h^h stuff and will be in a white Dodge van this time. If you've bought stuff on VCM and will be there, let me know (if you haven't already) and we'll both save the bother and expense of shipping :).

20 years

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age cutoff

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

I'm not entirely sure of the best way to phrase it. But for what it's worth, I personally think the cutoff for OS's should be win95, exclusive. In other words, win95, 98, 98SE, NT, 2000, and XP are off-topic. However, Windows up to 3.x, and Windows for workgroups are on-topic. You really must separate hardware from software. The above is my feelings for software. For hardware, I think 386 and 486 architecture is on-topic. Pentium 4 certainly isn't on-topic. But what about P1,2,3? I don't know. If the discussion is just the hardware, I certianly don't think there's a problem with talk of P1 and 2 anyways. Unfortunately, the above comes across as being windows bigoted. It most certainly isn't. My criteria is more what I posted on the list a year ago. It's kinda like... when I tell non-computer people what kind of computers I'm interested in. I usually tell them "systems with blinking lights" because that's the EASY way to say it. In fact, it has nothing to do with blinking lights. It just so happens that most of the systems I want HAPPEN (unrelated) to have blinking lights. So, the above looks like I'm anti-windows, that's not the case. But it is the outward result of other criteria. Which is also why I don't favor a specific list of systems/environments. I'd rather "teach a man to fish", than give him a list of what varieties of fish there are. So I'd rather come up with a rule that can be applied by anyone to get a reasonable determination. That may be impossible, I'm open to ideas. One list thing.... as a note about my future thoughts - I firmly believe that whatever the final "rule" is, it will eventually have to be changed. Again, that's why I don't like a "hardware list". What is off-topic today may well be on-topic tomorrow. So the rule will have to be changed in the future, OR, it will have to be defined in such a way that its application is sound for future systems. Please take the above as just my own personal thoughts, and not some edict >from the list admin :) Jay

20 years

3
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OCR software

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be > pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has > picked it up and started working on it. classiccmp list member James Markevitch has been working on an OCR program as well, optimized for column formated input, like listings. I was just talking to Doron Swade (the person responsible for the Difference Engine at the British Science Museum) and he is interested in OCR of mathematical tables (also column-oriented like listings).

20 years

3
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Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest)

by ken＠seefried.com

From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> Sean wrote.... > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > > little I recall (many CPUs). >Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? Nope. Connection Machines were made by Thinking Machines, Inc., and they don't use Pentiums. They use gobs (up to something like 16k) of proprietary processors. The ASCI Red supercomputer built by Intel used PPros; see http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/aries/course/notes/ascii_red.pdf. I think the compute nodes were pretty off-the-shelf SMP PPro designs, so some might consider it off-topic.

20 years

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Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal)

by technobug＠comcast.net

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 23:45:47 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse <mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> wrote: >>> I have never seen a hex number with a decimal point anyway... > > Nor will you; as Fred already pointed out, it's a hexadecimal point. > That aside, they do exist, though they're rare. While practically > everything these days uses IEEE floating-point, which is binary-based, > there have been machines with floating-point arithmetic that worked in > other bases, like octal or hex. For them, speaking of the "decimal" > point in a number printed in hex notation makes perfect sense. In the embedded world, the use of fixed point arithmetic is rampant. If you use a fixed point DSP, the use of pointed hexadecimal makes life infinitely easier than having to continually convert between decimal and hex. The issues of underflow/overflow are immediately obvious. The last time I checked, those little buggers outnumber the number of IEEE floating-point PCs of all flavors ever made. >> As quick exercises, 1) what is the binary fraction for PI? By way of trusty Mathematica: Pi to 1000 decimal places converted to base 2: In[1]:= BaseForm[N[Pi,1000],2] Out[1]//BaseForm= " 11.001001000011111101101010100010001000010110100011000010001101001100010 01\ 100011001100010100010111000000011011100000111001101000100101001000000100 100111\ 000001000100010100110011111001100011101000000001000001011101111101010011 000111\ 011000100111001101100100010010100010100101000001000011110011000111000110 100000\ 001001101110111101111100101010001100110110011110011010011101001000011000 110110\ 011000000101011000010100110110111110010010111110001010000110111010011111 110000\ 100110101011011010110110101010001110000100100010111100100100001011011010 101110\ 110011000100101111001111110110001101111010001001100010000101110100110100 110001\ 101111110110101101011000010111111111101011100101101101111010000000110101 101111\ 110110111101110001110000110101111111011010110101000100110011111101001011 010111\ 010011111001001000001000101111100010010110001111111100110010010010010100 001100\ 110010100011110110011100100010110110011110111000010000000000111110010111 000101\ 000010110001110111111000001011001100011011010010010000011011000011100010 101011\ 101001110011010011010010001011000111111101010001111110100100100110011110 101111\ 110000011011001010101110100100011110111001010001110101101100101100001110 001100\ 010111100110101011000100000100001010101001010111011100111101101010100101 001000\ 001110111000010010110100101100110110101100111000011000011010101001110010 010101\ 011110010011000000001001111000101110100011011000000100011001010000110000 010000\ 101111100001100101001000001011110010001100010111000110110110011100011101 111100\ 011100111100111011100101100000110000000111010000110000000111001101100100 111100\ 000111010001011101100000001111010001010001111101101011100010101011101111 100000\ 110111101001100010100101100100111011110001010111100101111110110100101010 101100\ 000010111000110000011100110010101010010010111110011101010100101010110101 011100\ 101000101011101001000100110000110001001100011111010000001010001000000010 101011\ 100101000111001011010100010101010101011000100001011011010110100110011000 101110\ 000110100000100010100000111101000110011101010000101010100100001101010111 101111\ 100011100101110100110010011101100111110111000010100000100010110001101101 111101\ 111000010101000101011101010011100010101011101011101000001100000110001111 101101\ 100111001011100001111100001011010011011100001111001001100011110101011111 101011\ 010111010001100110110110000100100110011110101110001111010001100100101001 110000\ 001001010001001010110000110011101110011101110001111010010001001100001101 011010\ 010111011100110101111110001001011111111101000000110110110011000101000001 000011\ 001001101100001110110000000100111001100111110110010000110101001100100010 100100\ 001111100101011000110000001011101111011001000000000110010111011111000010 001011\ 101010111011110100110000101011101011011000111011100001001100010001100000 010111\ 010110110010100011011100010000010001110001001001111101000000111010011100 101101\ 010110011000101000011110110110101101111111100111000001111110100010000100 011100\ 100101110000010110100010010000010101001001000010000100000000001000110100 111001\ 000111100000100101010011110000111111001101101011110001000011100011001101 000010\ 000101111011011101001011011001001101001100111000011001001110001100001101 010111\ 101001110001000111100000110101001010001101000001101001011011000010101000 010111\ 101101000100101100000111110100111001010001010101101010001001100111010001 101101\ 110111011110000101101101100000100110111101000111100"\_2\) CRC

20 years

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Reviving VAXstation 3100-m38, was Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives

by oldcpu＠rogerwilco.org

Paul Thompson wrote: >I have a mips ultrix machine so my console doesn't work the same, but google around some. It >would be BOOT/R5:00000001 DKAxxx or something similar. I have a boot manual around >somewhere if google isn't forthcoming. I used your suggested boot command, but still got the same experience with the hang after the failed chdir's. I did try a whole sequence of things, though, based on your model: I eventually found a combination that worked: BOOT/R5:00000002 DKA300. I tried /R2:00000001, /R3:00000001, and /R4:00000001, which don't work, before hitting on this. Later, while doing some more scanning of my looks-pretty-complete ULTRIX docset, I learned that the correct command for single-user boot is: BOOT/R2 DKAxxx. BOOT/R3 DKAxxx is the multi-user boot string. I found this in the _Guide to System Shutdown and Startup_ section. > /etc/fstab would probably be the spot to get rid of the nfs mounts, > once single user mode is accomplished. I'll double check the /etc/fstab and modify it perhaps. In the end, though, looks like this system was setup with an extremely minimalist install of ULTRIX. There are a few commands in /bin, but almost every other useful tool is a slink to something on /usr, which itself is an NFS mount to some unknown box, long gone to me. I think I'll just install NetBSD (if I can get a larger drive!), use it as a MOP server to revive the other uVAXen, and finally get their disks imaged, which was the original goal. Of course, I do have a couple of Debian boxes that could serve the MOP stuff, but I'll still need to figure out what image I can use, probably a NetBSD. The only real trouble is that one or two of the other VAXen don't have ethernet installed. I do have a spare DEQNA, so I'll try that. Well, off to the lab! > > I have a 5400 with a R215F and a DECstation 5000/260. > I can provide some help with those for sure. > > Super! I'll no doubt lean on you extensively when I get to that system. Gotta get these VAXen imaged first, then I'll work on that system. With it's DSSI drives, it should be interesting to get them imaged. Given that there's not a xBSD port for this system, I can only hope that there is a working ULTRIX set up on it. Thanks. Jared

20 years

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Ontopic vs offtopic (WAS Re: Modern CP/M machine classic?)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

OK guys, I've been trying to stay out of this thread but I'm getting tired of it. It seems to be generally accepted that emulations and reimplementations of classic architectures are on topic. Can we please stop asking about everyone's pet implementation or remake? I'm sorry about creating noise with the pickle thread - let's get over it.

20 years

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looking for Darwin USIIi module (pushing OT)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

O.K. - this is pushing it alot, but I'd rather buy from someone I know than an e-bay unknown. I'm looking for an UltraSPARC IIi module for Sun Darwin boards (Ultra 5/10), 333MHz or 360MHz. Thought someone might have upgraded and have one in their junk box. $9+ shipping for 333, perhaps more for a 360? Scott

20 years

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QIC 80 drive needed

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Bear writes: >On Aug 31, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > >>I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so >>it's >>not very interesting. > >I think you'd find there to be more than a few folks on this list who >would find it quite interesting, myself included. Yes, and wouldn't you know it, I passed up a bunch of Spocks (IIx Macs) a few months ago because I didn't know what I'd do with them. Arrgh.

20 years

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Octal

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Tony Duell wrote: You only need the digits 0-7. At one time there was considerable resistance to using letters as digits, a second-hand book I bought last week thinkks it's most unsatisfactory to do this. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Billy: This brings up a question I had for the group. In the early '60's, hex was not very popular. And it hadn't become a standard to use A-F. I worked on one hex machine that used lower case i,j,k,l,m,n and another that used upper case U, V, W, X, Y, and Z. Does anyone remember using any other notations? There must have been many more. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tony Duell wrote: Word lengths tend not to be multiples of 3 bits. This means, for example you can't easily split 16 bit word into bytes, or combine 2 bytes into a word when you write them in Octal. In hex it's trivial. There were various split octal notations where you convert each part separately, but they get confusing fast. But basically it's just another way of writing numbers which is useful sometiimes (particularly if 'you're misisng 2 fingers' as Tom Lehrer put it. -tony ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- Billy: I took a C class many years back where the instructor started out with the statement that all computers use word sizes that are multiples of 8 bits. I couldn't help laughing. After class, I explained to her why and described the G-15, RPC-4000, etc. I feel a little that way now on the discussion of octal - how soon we forget. I want to mention to Tony that I've worked on computers for 40+ years that were multiples of 3. And at one time, they were the biggest and the fastest in the world. The CDC 1604, and 3400, 3600, and 3800 were 48 bits. The 924, 3100, 3200, 3300, and 3500 were 24 bits. The 140, 160, 160-A and 8090 were 12 bits. (The 160-G was 13 bits, but every family has one. Besides it was still an octal machine.) And of course, all the 6600 and 7600 machines were 60 bits. For 20 years, these machines dominated the large computer market place. All of these systems were octal oriented. Hex was never brought up in polite company. Then there's the DEC systems of 12 and 18 bits. And many others (3x bit) among the "7 Dwarves". Octal was widely used for the first two generations of computing. Hex is a Johnny-come-lately, with the prime populizar being the IBM 360. I've often wondered why dentists didn't use octal/hex to number teeth? 32 for a complete set, divided into 4 quadrants of 8. Billy

20 years

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cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 5

by dm561＠torfree.net

I really don't get what all this fuss is about; the 10 year rule has apparently not been in effect for some time and I haven't noticed any sudden flood of questions about WinXP, so why suddenly these demands to have it or some other rule (re-)instated? Seems to me until this present time-waster things were going along pretty well. When I tell my "normal" friends about the current discussion here and show them some of the messages, they can't believe they're meant seriously; talk about confirming the stereotype of computer geeks with too much time on their hands. Even though much of the traffic was of little or no direct relevance to me, I've enjoyed this list for five years or so because for the most part it was informative and interesting; any chance we could get back to talking about computers instead of rules any time soon? mike

20 years

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A little bit OT: an interesting POP

by spectre＠floodgap.com

It's a little bit ON-topic because I would never have discovered this if I wasn't playing with my C64's modem. Btw, for 6551 ACIA hackers, I seem to be having some trouble detecting carrier with my SwiftLink. I know that in the cartridge it is always tied on with pull-ups so that the 6551's receiver stays on, and so Dr Evil Labs/CMD directed DCD to come over DSR instead (this is internal to the cartridge). But all I get is the DCD "phantom" always-on bit when I check the register, even if I get a successful connect -- I never see the DCR line come up. Are there DB-25 to DE-9 cables that just don't connect DCD? While I was testing this out, I dialed the local AOL access number just to get something with a carrier so that I could watch the 6551 status register when it connected. Besides the DCD/DSR chachacha above, I got an interesting prompt (X'ed out the naughty bits) Level 3 Comm nasXX.XXXX UQKT2 Username:/login:/Login: Not your typical POP. I know who Level 3 is, and I do have an AOL login. It's interesting, however -- I was just expecting 8-bit "garbage" and not an actual prompt. I disconnected immediately since I wasn't interested in raising anyone's blood pressure at Level 3's security centre. What kind of protocol might this use (besides AOL's internal one, of course)? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Excellent guess, Kreskin. Wrong, but excellent. -- Space Quest 6 -----------

20 years

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Octal

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

Hi, Someones signiture (the "real programmers get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded me about Octal. I have heard of it, and know it's still used on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could be used for, and why it would still be used today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

20 years

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Octal

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Octal > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2006 00:36:59 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Seven segment displays are also ergonomic disasters - the military >> found it is far easier to read a seven segment display incorrectly >> than just about every other method. > >Does anyone else remmeber the 8 and 9 segment displays used by (IIRC) >Sharp in the early 1970s. They were vacuum flourescnet, single digit to >an envelope, made by Itron (IIRC). The segments were curved, and you got >much more natural-looking digits than from a 7 segment straight-bar >display. Of course the problem that 2 rapidly alternating digits can look >like something totally different remains. > >-tony I have two 12 digit bottles, 4 individual digits and a 40x2 bottle of the VF type and a working Sharp calc that uses said VF disply. Allison

20 years

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cctalk Digest, Vol 37, Issue 4

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 15:34 -0500 9/1/06, Evan wrote: > >>>> So how about, "If it's a computing device of some sort that isn't made >anymore, nor is there any commercial support to be had for it. Oh, and if >the computing device is capable of running Windows 95 or better, it's still >off topic." > >>>>> -spc (I would think that would cover most of the complaints) > >Perfect! It shall be known as Conner's Law and supplants the 10-year-rule. > >Oops, that is for Jay to say. But I like it. :) As the new owner (well, I'm actually over 40, but you know what I mean :-) ) of a CoCo3, and being in possession of the Cloud-9 Website URL http://www.cloud9tech.com/ I'm not so sure I like this proposal. Granted, Cloud-9 is not fulfilling orders at the moment, but previously and in the future (I hope!) they sold systems, repairs, upgrades, and software for the Tandy Color Computer. Likewise, for my NeXT, there are http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/Black/ and http://www.blackholeinc.com/ At the very least, I propose the modification, "...nor is there any commercial support *other than third-party* to be had for it..." (satisfied customer of all of the above, no other relation) -- - Mark Cell Phone: 210-379-4635 office: 210-522-6025

20 years

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Octal

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

woodelf wrote: Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. > Cheers, > Chuck I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display device? --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, virtually all the Control Data systems displayed octal. The devices were varied, from projection displays (1604) to CRT vector drawn (6600). Some, such as the 8090 and 8092 had optional front panels to display either binary or octal. Octal use continued at CDC up through the 1700 machine, which was hex. Seymour finally went to hex on the Cray series. Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Billy

20 years

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Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

Hans wrote: > Well, yes, you got me nailed down there. I was only thinking > in the area of low volume embedded system - classic machinery [ ... ] > Would it be better phrased if I said: Pentums and alikes are > by now the majority of new x86 based embedded systems? LOL! Yes, I couldn't fault you for that :-) Tek scopes and ATMs come to mind, but there are others, I know. -- Pete

20 years

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OCR software

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> I've never actually met Doron, although his name tends to crop up an awful > lot. I think he's possibly up at our museum next Friday He's in California right now, spending some time with us at CHM. Very nice guy, who is excited about my work in software preservation.

20 years

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OCR software

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

This isn't strictly on-topic, but I believe it's important to many people here. I just learned about this on another list. HP developed an OCR engine called Tesseract that is supposed to be pretty good. They released it to the open-source world, and Google has picked it up and started working on it. The code itself is available via SourceForge. Here is the announcement: http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/08/announcing-tesseract- ocr.html With all the document preservation activities going on these days, in our circles as well as others, this may be a significant development. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL

20 years

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more found boards

by rtellason＠verizon.net

Well, I didn't find the 8-bit VGA card that another list member was looking for, but did find some other stuff. Maybe some of you folks could help me figure out what I have here and what it might be good for, or even help relieve me of some of it... Got one 8-bit card here that also has an internal edge connector and I'm guessing it's a floppy interface -- there's a crystal, one big chip labeled Zilog Z765APS and what I'm guessing is a data separator chip socketed, looks like UM8326, and a bunch of LSTTL glue logic. Got one which is an 8-bit card only there's a little sticker near the card edge connector that says "pls plug into the 16 bits slot only" -- why would they do that? This one has a DB25M on the metal bracket, which is also labeled "Scanner Interface", is this supposed to be some kind of crude SCSI? There are a couple of chips labeled "SPOT" (a logo actually), and silkscreened on the board it says "SPOT Fototak 2E-Card". The note on the bag says "Parallel port" but I'm not sure that means anything. About four chips on the board (2 of which look like RAM) and a jumper block, 2x3 with 2 on there. The next one is labeled (in the foil) "ICS2110 Demo Board Rev. A" and sure enough there seems to be a square socketed chip labeled ICS2110 in there. An array of eight of what I'm guessing are RAM, some LSTTL, two 8-pole DIP switches, and four jumper blocks with one jumper on each. A TDA1545 ("Stereo Continuous Calibration DAC"), a couple of NE5532 op amp chips, a whole mess of capacitors, two trimpots (?) and two of what appear to be audio jacks at the metal bracket. This one's a 16-bit card. The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin connector (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the opposite end is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to apparently be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 ohm 10W (!) power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on "PC" hardware. This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode and a rather long number on it. Anybody know what these are, any of them? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

20 years

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Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986

by maynard＠jmg.com

Hello, I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order to get a completely flat scan of each page. Questions: - Is it wrong to destroy these magazines in order to scan them in for posterity? - Are they as rare as I think? That is, are there plenty of copies around such that historians and others interested in classic computing would not find this project of interest? - Is the copyright violation involved (on 25 - 30 year old magazines) really an issue? Thanks, --M

20 years

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Octal

by dm561＠torfree.net

-----------Original Message Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:37:30 -0700 From: "Billy Pettit" <Billy.Pettit at wdc.com> Subject: Octal Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Billy ----------Reply: By coincidence, I just happen to have my TI Programmer in front of me, in the process of replacing its NiCds. I used to use my Casio fx-451 (the solar powered one) a fair bit (easier than the TI to read & doesn't need an AC adapter), but lately I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). mike

20 years

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Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Aug 31 2006, 12:34, Hans Franke wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to > > that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek > > scope has an 8088 in it... > > After all, it doesn't doesn't realy matter what CPU is used, as > long as it does it's job as a black box controll system. > > But yeah, Pentiums (and alikes) are already the base for most new > embedded developments. "Most"? I don't think so. 2 billion ARM/XScale cores licensed in the last 12 months, and about a quarter that number of MIPS chips/cores. Pentiums don't even come close. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years

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Fluke TK80A

by river＠zip.com.au

Hi, I'm checking through some of my old stuff and I have a Fluke TK80A, which appears to be a single board computer or training system. It has an 8080 CPU, 1K of RAM (2114), an EPROM and a membrane keypad, some 7-seg LEDs and a few switches. Other than the power connector it has no external connecters or sockets - so I assume it's a standalone system. Some of the LEDs and switches are stamped "ADDR 10000 Output Port" and other addresses that are over 10000 (ie 100F9)- which has me perplexed as the address limit of the 8080 is FFFF and the IO range only goes to FF? I'm going to check it over and apply some power to see what it does (if anything). However, if anyone has heard of this board or know something about it could you please illuminate me to its purpose? river -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/435 - Release Date: 31/08/2006

20 years

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Question about Z80 ISA bus board

by bob099＠centurytel.net

Hope to generate less heat this time. Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" Anyone have an ideal what it could be? Betronix made circuit board layout software.

20 years

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Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Aug 31 2006, 19:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 2) The matter of musical copying has cost many universities so much money > to settle, that several have the policy that illegal copying of music (and > for all I know, other materials) is grounds for dismissal (faculty) or > expulsion (students). It's similar here in the UK. Moreover, every photocopier in our University, and in others I've seen, has a notice beside it stating the rules, and spelling out what the allowed "fair use" exceptions are. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

20 years

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Octal

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:19:07 -0400 From: Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Octal >Lesse, While the calc on my NT4 box has most of the right stuff it >doesn't do logic (AND, OR, XOR, NOT) and if I ask for a "tape" the >printer is at the other side of the room. Feh! -------------------------- No problem; just move the printer! ;-> The Windows Calculator (am I breaking any rules here? :) does indeed have shortcomings, but there are some pretty useful others out there with all your logic functions, 4/8/16/32 bit modes, ASCII and unit conversions, etc. And for accounting stuff, a printing calc is indeed useful; use one myself for certain things. I was just musing that in general people seem to be more comfortable with calculators (even non-printing ones) than computer versions. (And looking for and correcting errors in long columns of figures is a lot more convenient in a spreadsheet.) >Often I need the result when NOT at a PC. Aw, c'mon Allison (and Tony); someone asked whether anyone still had a TI Programmer and I replied, yes, I do but generally use the Windows calculator instead (because of some of the same shortcomings you yourself mentioned); aside from the obligatory "*I* don't _use_ Winblows" replies there were one or two saying that it and computer calcs in general were "a pain" ("can't see the point") and I asked why. I didn't say that they were "better" or that you should throw your pocket calc away and use a laptop when you're away from your desk. Just that for the usual _programming_ stuff, converting bases & doing hex/octal/binary arithmetic, it's convenient to have a calculator right there on the same keyboard that you're programming on (and perhaps one or two people weren't aware that the Win Calc has hex & binary (and octal, the thread of this discussion) modes; I know that I didn't realize it until well into W98). Sheesh... mike

20 years

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