- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

GET JOKE is here

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

And all this trouble because someone did not read the entire joke. It was only two lines... -- Will

16 years

1
0
0 0

Bigots & Fanatics - final round

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here >> Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly >> devoted >> to his or her own opinions and prejudices." >A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill >. . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line ------------ Guilty as charged; sorry, I just really enjoy yanking Dave's 'M$ fanboy' chain... But all good things must end, alas... m

16 years

2
1
0 0

GET LAMP is here

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On 8/11/10 12:28 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >>> we both seem to be known, [...] >> >> Actually its just you. > Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining >about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. > But hey, it's all in good fun. > -Dave ------------------ Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." Gotta admit, that sounds like you all right, at least in this context. So, in your view someone who objects to bigotry is also a bigot? Interesting logic... @ Richard: Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. We know who *really* "gets" more, MS or 'nix types, don't we...? But hey, it's all in good fun. mike

16 years

3
2
0 0

VAX on a cell phone

by pat＠computer-refuge.org

On Wednesday, August 11, 2010, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more > computing power than that. For a cellphone ... In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running SIMH. http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- android.html And then using a VT125 for its console: http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html Enjoy the insanity! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org

16 years

6
8
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3270 Personal Computer

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

Further from the details of the OP, but a little closer to the spirit of the OP and more DECish: I remember students calling up when they had trouble running their Fortran homework programs through the compiler on the "VT100 computer running VMS". Even today the computer hardware on the desk is often blamed when it's really really some backend website that's FUBAR or Microsoft's Windows getting infected by spyware. And as long as we're talking about people who get confused by the label on the computer devices in front of them, where's the guy who swears up and down that he has OS/2 for the PDP-11 and that he was using the predecessor to Fortran in 1982? None of the above people are evil, just misguided and in need of some nudges. But it's sad that the computer industry is so confusing that the nudges are needed, and that the folks who decide what brand gets buys are so often swayed by the brandname of something on their desk rather than reality. Tim.

16 years

1
0
0 0

GET LAMP is here

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see <URL>' is > impossible. I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to figure out what is being talked about. "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. If we could scan the entire existing collection, then the effort probably would be worthwhile. I'm on dial-up right now. A URL with no explanation just seems rather inconsiderate. Oh, well. But, it's not just here. The college adminiatrators tend to send a 4 line paragraph as a MICROS~1 WEIRD attachment with no explanation other than "FYI" or "read the attachment". Meanwhile, the "Help Desk" sends out several announcements per week saying, "Please stop opening attachments that come with email, and please stop replying to messages that ask what your password is!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -----------------------Reply: I'm with Tony and Fred on this one: a hint of what a URL is about would be nice and show a little consideration. I'm on dial-up as well, often incurring per-minute long distance charges, and read my email off-line; if there's no clue what a link is about then I just treat it as spam no matter where it's from instead of investing time and money looking at something that probably won't interest me (especially when some sites take 3 or 4 minutes at 56K just to open the page). mike

16 years

5
4
0 0

Speaking of Bernoullis...

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

I'd love to use 5.25" Bernoullis as removable storage on a PDP-11 via a Qbus SCSI host adapter. Does anyone know offhand if any of the common boards, like the CMD CQD-223, will properly handle a drive with 256 bytes per sector? I know it's a bit odd to think about, but it seems like a good idea to me, if it'll work. If nobody pipes up and says it definitely won't work, perhaps I'll dig up a Bernoulli drive and try it at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

16 years

1
0
0 0

Serial interfaces

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/20/10, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> With a serial port, you can turn an old machine with two serial >> interfaces into a snooper... > > RS-232 is such a pain, I just had some problems recently. I had never > thought of using my PC as a way of snooping serial traffic. I have two > serial ports on my machine. Does anyone know of any good software to do > this? I could always write it myself, but it would be nice if there was > already something there. Here are several: http://freshmeat.net/projects/linuxserialsniffer/ http://freshmeat.net/projects/serlook/ http://www.serialmon.com/ http://www.gumbley.me.uk/scope.html Some of these use one port and a special sniffer cable, some use two ports. There are other sniffers out there, I'm sure, but these were the ones that took less than two minutes to find. I haven't used any of them, so I can't recommend one vs another. I have commercial-grade gear for this (HP4951), but with all the options out there, you should be able to find a PC-based one that does what you need. -ethan

16 years

2
1
0 0

M51976FP pinout?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

I am looking for a pinout or datasheet for a chip labelled M51976FP. It appears to be made by Mitsubishi, it's a SMPSU controller in a 20 pin SOIC package. I have the data on the M51977, which is similar (I think), but some pins are clearly different. Looking on datasheetarchiver and digchip didn't find anything. And a google search (as ever) found plenty of people who sould sell me 100000 of them, but nothing else). [It's uised in a PSU modile in an HP tape drive that I am working on, so it does have som relevance to classic computers0. Thanks in advance for any help -tony

16 years

2
2
0 0

Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston

by kelly＠catcorner.org

> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston > > > > I would expect no more than $5/lb (probably less) for that > era of board > or about $5 or less per board in scrap value. The rest of > the chassis, > maybe $5 in value without spending a lot in labor to separate > the metals > out. In North West New Jersey scrap high density circuit boards are $0.70 per pound. Steel is about $200 per ton.

16 years

7
13
0 0

retr0brite not so right?

by feedle＠feedle.net

Depends. I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: >What is worth more, an Apple I motherboard with all original chips but maybe >non functional, and an Apple I motherboard that has been reworked to >function with later date coded chips and other parts. I would bet it is the >all original unit, and few if any collectors would even try to turn it on >anyway. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "A. C. Baumann" <feedle at feedle.net> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:06 AM >Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right? > > >It is sensible to me that limited modification to maintain an operational >state wouldn't affect the collectible value much, especially compared to >"not working at all." >

16 years

13
26
0 0

does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge)

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_… the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that it's tested and working. I seem to have a vague recollection of what this is, but actually I'm not totally sure.

16 years

3
2
0 0

That darned PDP font

by silent700＠gmail.com

This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this one: http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-… There are many similar round fonts out there, and one could make the pdp11 logo out of them, but the other characters fail. Has this mystery been solved? Internal font? All hand drawn? -- jht

16 years

4
4
0 0

Anyone got a GRiDlite 1040, Sharp MZ-200?

by bdamer＠digitalspace.com

Anyone here have a GRiDlite 1040 I could acquire or borrow for a project here at the Digibarn? Also anyone got documents for a Sharp laptop (MZ-200) which I cannot find in my mountain of documentation. Bruce

16 years

1
0
0 0

Todd Fishcer's IMSAI 8048 Doll House up for sale on eBay

by mardy＠pernetics.com

I hope that this ends up on display in a museum and not sitting in some collectors basement... Item number: 230508849284 -Mardy

16 years

2
1
0 0

BC19V-02

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

Anyone need a BC19V-02 cable? I believe it's a modem cable for a microVAX option, and I have no idea why I have it. 50-pin female D connector one end, DB25M the other (not all pin positions populated). Free for cost of postage from York, UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

16 years

1
0
0 0

Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/30/10, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> One of my "hobbies" (some >> might call it an obsession) is figuring a way to pronounce any given >> acronym as a word.... > > :-) > > I've been know to refer to the 5150 as the 'I-Bum Puck' :-). The first > 'I' is short --'e' not 'eye' as I pronounce it... Here, I've heard "Ih-bem Peck" (same 'i' sound you describe), but it was usually used in a less-than-flattering context. The most gratuitous example of this I can recall is the Sesame Street character Big Bird attempting to pronounce the 26-letter Western alphabet as a single word ("ab-cer-def-gee-jeckle-mernop-kur-stoov-wik-siz" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC%E2%80%93DEF%E2%80%93GHI) -ethan

16 years

24
60
0 0

HP Omnibook 425 available

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Forwarded from email: At 05:09 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote: >Hi my name is Eli Yarborough and I have an old HP Omnibook 425. I cannot find any place online that buys or sells this type of computer. I saw your website and thought you could help. I don't know if my Omnibook is the type of computer you would want or collect but I was wondering if you could provide me with some general insight about it. I'm not necessarily trying to sell it but I want to know if a computer like this is in demand and whether or not it's worth anything. It still works like new and comes with Microsoft Word and Excel along with a few other features. I still have all the accessories that came with the computer (the manuals and charger) along with external memory cards and other add-ons. I would just like to know if you or anyone you know is looking to add this to their collection. It would be a huge help if you could provide me with any information you have about this computer. It certainly was a great computer in its day and a fascinating example of the rap! id cha nges in technology. Thanks for your time and help! > >Eli Yarborough > >NC Tech Sales ><mailto:carolinatechsales at gmail.com>carolinatechsales at gmail.com

16 years

1
0
0 0

P112 board edits

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

I'm almost ready to start taking orders for P112 kits now. Before that I need some help from someone who knows how to edit gerbers. The edits are pretty minor, but I lack the appropriate software. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

16 years

1
0
0 0

FS local pickup only-Kansas City, MO area-OSI C1P, C4P, SuperPET, PET 4016, DEC VT-180, TRS-80 4 and 4P

by michael.passer＠gmail.com

Greetings, all. Have the following for sale--need to move these quickly and they are priced as such. I am in Greenwood, Missouri (a few blocks east of Lee's Summit along Missouri 150). I am not looking for eBay prices but am also not looking for eBay-level hassle--I just don't have time to pack and ship these systems anywhere; they would have to be picked up locally and paid for with cash. I would of course be happy to allow prospective buyers to power up each machine and verify its operation to his satisfaction before paying. Ohio Scientific C1P with disk drive - $125 Ohio Scientific C4P with disk drive - $150 Commodore SuperPET with 8050 (one drive needs a part for the door) - $90 Commodore PET 4016 - $50 DEC VT-180 - $50 TRS-80 Model 4 - $20 TRS-80 Model 4P - $30 I additionally have several VIC-20s, C-64s, a C-128 or two, disk drives, Atari 8-bit machines, an Atari ST, monitors, and software for those interested in things along those lines as well. That said, I will listen to and consider any reasonable offer. Thank you for taking a moment to read this! Michael Passer michael.passer at gmail.com

16 years

1
1
0 0

ANN: liblpfk (IBM LPFK driver library), tumble-0.33-philpem1

by classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk

Hi guys, A few of you might remember the IBM LPFK bulk-order a couple of years back, and the ensuing chaos of figuring out the control protocol (which was eventually resolved when Michael Brutman found some old IBM protocol docs which covered the LPFK). I figure I've been sitting on the code for long enough: it's time to make a proper release! Anyone who wants to have a play with this is welcome to do so: the code is on my website, under "Code :: liblpfk", or if you'd prefer a direct link: http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/liblpfk/ I've also uploaded my fork of Eric Smith's "tumble" utility, a TIFF-to-PDF converter. I found a couple of bugs (which haven't been fixed seven months later) and figured it was a shame not to share the patches. After all, it is open-source :) URL for that is http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/ -- click "Tumble". At some point I'll give this a separate page instead of just linking to the version-control repository, and may well document the control file format (which IIRC isn't documented at the moment). Somewhat offtopic, but I've also released a driver for one of the Brother P-touch label printers. I needed labels for my spare parts boxes and really didn't feel like making them with a Dymo gun when I had a perfectly good stock database (which is next on the 'stuff to release' list) which I could use as a data source for said labels. Work smarter not harder and all that ;) These were written for Linux, but should work decently well on BSD too. Forget running them on Windows unless you want to port the serial-line (liblpfk) and/or usb-lp (libptouch) stuff across... I didn't (this be a Linux-only ship, yarrr!) Comments, criticism and so on should be sent to the address below. Sensible patches are, as always, gratefully received 8^) FYI: I'm working on getting a copyright release from university for the DiscFerret software. At the moment most of the Department of Computer Science is on holiday so this is proving somewhat difficult... PCB design is still ongoing, though a lack of funds means it might be a while before I get prototype PCBs made. I'm hoping to release the firmware, microcode and decoder engine under the GPL or LGPL, and the hardware access library will most likely be distributed under a "BSD-with-attribution" type license (I forget, is that 3-clause or 4-clause?). Either way, it'll be GPL-compatible (for obvious reasons!) and commercial-use-allowed. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

16 years

3
2
0 0

To scrap or not to scrap?

by hachti＠hachti.de

Hi, just followed the thread about ENIAC pieces and went to the website announcing a VCF southeast. There I saw announced sales of Arcnet and Token Ring adapters. That was the inspiration for this posting. * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. Mostly NICs. * IBM PC AT and around * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be of sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a dedicated flea market event? Opinions very welcome. And btw I'm talking about stuff in Northern Germany... Regards, Philipp

16 years

8
9
0 0

Data General 6050 Disk Drive

by marvin＠west.net

Oops, I guess everyones esp is not working so well having to ask where this unit is :). It is located in Santa Barbara, CA. I received an email almost immediately from someone interested. If he ends up not taking it, I'll repost to the list. Thanks! Marvin

16 years

1
0
0 0

Data General 6050 Disk Drive

by marvin＠west.net

A friend of mine has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears to be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it looks like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. I think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. Thanks! Marvin

16 years

4
3
0 0

PDP-11/44 mystery card

by pontus＠Update.UU.SE

Hi I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt Nothing special, I've used the field guide to identify most cards. I've only marked one card of each kind. There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. They are made by Data Management Labs in San Jose and are labled DML 750 Board A and Board B. There are some numbers as well (in no particular order) 980-8043 710-1921-001 There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that rings a bell with anyone? Also I wonder what the "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" are used for? Cheers, Pontus

16 years

3
4
0 0

Intel RMX 86/330 system & 380 startup questions

by neal.filla＠delta.com

Looking for a intel 310 computer. Know of any ??? to run rmx86. Neal Filla PH - (612) 726-8612 Fax - (612) 726-0163 neal.filla at Delta.com<mailto:neal.filla at Delta.com>

16 years

1
0
0 0

OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0)

by classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk

Hi guys, I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many I/O pins). On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

16 years

5
6
0 0

test to see if messages ares are being posed or seen

by halarewich＠gmail.com

hello all Nerver mind the waste of bandwidth just trying to see if gmails sending my messages right i sent one a couple days ago with no responses so far and when u post a single messes and if no one respondes gmail does not post it on your main inbox chris

16 years

1
0
0 0

DG 800/1200 questions

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far to get me started down the path: 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely identical parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping someone had been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, etc. 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these special tapes can be purchased new? 3) With these machines I got a very large (several crates) library of cassette tapes as well as paper tapes, most appeared to be DG software rather than user data/backups. Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to have them read and saved for posterity before I put them in a questionable drive? As old as these tapes are, I wouldn't be suprised if one read was all they will allow. 4) Like #3 above, I have maybe 8 or 10 accounting storage boxes full of schematics & docs for all the circuit cards for the cpu's, interfaces, and peripherals mentioned above. I don't know what the current state of the DG archival project is. Is it likely that all these docs are already archived somewhere? Thanks in advance for any sage advice! Best, J

16 years

18
30
0 0

Mispronouncing acronyms

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

Mark wrote: > At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >> Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >> approved" Shoppa. > Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" Of course the Blues Brothers had their own computer acronym: SCMODS = State County and Municipal Offender Data System pronounced Skamods with a distinct tone of disdain by Elwood IIRC. The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile PLATO terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories in Skokie. Tim.

16 years

4
3
0 0

Maker Faire review

by jfoust＠threedee.com

I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! Amazing and inspirational geekdom. A combination computer show, robot demo, tech consciousness raising, Scout jamboree and university recruiting fair. Vehicles with real flames. The crowd? Mom, Dad and the kids, regular geeks, geeks with tats and corsets. Cast your own cannonballs from scrap iron. Life-size Mouse Trap game. Guitars. Marshmallow guns. For a buck, you could buy a kit and sit down at a station to solder your own blinking LED merit badge, and dozens were doing that continuously. EepyBird did their Coke and Mentos show. Quite a few Arduino-powered gizmos. MakerBots with various heads like 3D printing with melted ABS plastic. There was one guy who'd made his own CPU from the ground up, with an Altair-era style front panel. About 250 booths, I believe. Overall, I thought it was quite inspirational. A wide range of ages and abilities in play, all enthusiastic about making things, learning to repair things, hacking in a playful way. I think any classic computer exhibit would be well-received. I don't think Detroit was as funky as it gets when the MF is in San Francisco. On the other hand, it took place in the parking lots of the Henry Ford Museum / Greenfield Village, so there was plenty to see in terms of old machinery. By some great coincidence, the kids watched a special on Nikola Tesla on the History Channel shortly before we went to Greenfield Village, so they could see through the endless pro-Edison material. While admiring the steam locomotive roundhouse, Air Force One flew overhead. Being in Detroit also gave me a chance to spend a little time with my old friend Sheldon Leemon ("Mapping the Commodore 64") and his wife. - John

16 years

4
4
0 0

scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it...

16 years

2
2
0 0

Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched.

by c.murray.mccullough＠gmail.com

I remember the days after quite well. Being from Canada it wasn't available here right away. I went to Rochester, N.Y. to see it at a computer store. Boy, did this computer geeks eyes light up! I did eventually get one that summer. Murray--

16 years

2
1
0 0

Electronic Design article on CRTs

by cclist＠sydex.com

Mentions the Tek 4051 among other things: http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed- signal/farewell_crts.aspx?nl=1 --Chuck

16 years

1
0
0 0

Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

After a long hiatus from the hobby, I'm making some attempts to get back into it. Even though I've been away from the hobby, several listmembers have my other (work) email addresses and have always called my attention to things when needed. My jwest at classiccmp.org email address went unopened though, and I've just started plowing through 22K (that's a count, not a size) of email. I am going to try to keep current on this address again, but to those who have my other email addresses by all means feel free to use them if something comes up and I don't respond quickly on this one. I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate all the sites & list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll keep the list posted when I start down that path. I haven't touched anything classiccmp related in eons. While my beloved HP 21MX systems and DEC systems are all still pristine, categorized, and running - I have fallen fall short in the other areas of my collection (mostly lots of DG and one Microdata). I hope to focus on the DG side of my collection for a while and will no doubt be asking for help here as that's a completely new area for me. As always, if anyone needs any help with HP 21MX related items I'd be glad to help (as much as my rusty memory will allow). I've also just skimmed back over the past couple months of the list traffic, and it's so good to still see all the familiar faces. Best, Jay West

16 years

12
16
0 0

Looking for a RK05F faceplate

by quapla＠xs4all.nl

Hello All, I'm looking for an RK05F faceplate. Anyone able to help me with one? Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.

16 years

1
0
0 0

Xyplex 1600 config software

by silent700＠gmail.com

I am getting deep into the mysterious config of this terminal server, googling and banging the desk, and I find out that there is a Windows (or possibly others OSes?) GUI config tool out there somewhere for it, know as "Focalpoint" (or "Focal Point.") Anyone know if it's available any more? Also, anyone expert in the configuration of this beast and wouldn't mind some n00b questions via direct email, I'd be much obliged to hear >from you. -- jht

16 years

2
2
0 0

Perot collection?

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

I received an email about VCFSW 1.0 on the ClassicMainframes list (the most dead list I am on, at about a message a month), and it talks about the collection of the Perot Group, down in Texas, possibly part of a tour. Does anyone know much about this collection? Supposedly it has some large IBMs. -- Will

16 years

13
31
0 0

intel MSD-720

by shumaker＠att.net

can anyone shed some light on what this might be: Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially unchanged for months attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than successful. the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. thoughts welcome.... Steve

16 years

4
7
0 0

Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 03 August 2010 23:15 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s > > I have 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s given to me by someone who is leaving > the > country and could not take them with him. I took them rather than see > them > discarded. They each have 8Mb onboard memory. They do not have any > disks and > the cover on the storage bay is missing. One of them has a little bit > of > damage to the rear plastic panel. > > I cleaned out all the dust and powered them up, they all booted to the > console prompt just fine. > > They are in Greater Manchester, England. > > Regards > > Rob And I forgot to say, they are of course free. Regards Rob

16 years

1
0
0 0

Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

I have 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s given to me by someone who is leaving the country and could not take them with him. I took them rather than see them discarded. They each have 8Mb onboard memory. They do not have any disks and the cover on the storage bay is missing. One of them has a little bit of damage to the rear plastic panel. I cleaned out all the dust and powered them up, they all booted to the console prompt just fine. They are in Greater Manchester, England. Regards Rob

16 years

1
0
0 0

Mispronouncing acronyms

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

>> And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw >> References to the ASC2 character set. > Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". Typical usage of that from the 70's onward: "You're still using asskey? We're using asskey-2. You should upgrade." Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been approved" Shoppa.

16 years

6
5
0 0

retr0brite not so right?

by spectre＠floodgap.com

This appeared on the cbm-hackers list today. Anyone have a thought on it? Addresses redacted. ----- Forwarded message from William Levak ----- Subject: re: Anyone know what type of plastic Commodore computers are manufactured from? I have looked at the retr0brite website, and gone throgh all the information there. It is my opinion that this procedure has not been adequately tested, and there is a possibility that this procedure may cause long term damage to the plastic. I am a chemist and have some experience testing resins. The retr0brite information mentions a white "bloom" on the plastic from over treatment. This condition is permanent. It also represents chemical damage to the plastic. A common procedure to determine the chemical resistance of polymers, is to put various reactive chemicals on the surface and determine whether, and how much time it takes for noticeable chemical damage to occur. This usually shows up as a white "bloom", but this is not the only damage. Polymers can also suffer damage that is not visible, but causes the polymer to lose its strength and prematurely "age". The retr0brite information says that you should be careful not to over use the chemicals so that the white "bloom" does not occur. But this does not necessarily mean that chemical damage has not occured. If it takes x amount of time to create the white "bloom", then using it for half that time probably means that half the damage has occured. Whether the damage is visible is not the real question here. It would take aging tests to determine whether the plastic is damaged from the retr0brite procedure. I do not see any indication that retr0brite treated plastics have been subjected to aging tests. -------- Original Message -------- >> From: "Stingray" >> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 10:37 PM >> Subject: Anyone know what type of plastic Commodore computers are > manufactured from? >> >> Anyone know specifically what plastic the C64 and C64C are manufactured > from? >> >> I have been wondering how to stop plastic Commodore gear from fading. >> I found a really good link on this (also explains why some of the keys >> on your C64C are faded and some aren't). >> http://www.vintagecomputing.co...chives/189 [ this was truncated in the original message for some reason ] >> >> Does anyone have any of their own tips on maintaining plastic >> Commodore equipment? >> >> Regards, >> Stingray >> Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list ----- End of forwarded message from William Levak ----- -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We shoulda bought a squirrel. -- "Rat Race" --------------------------------

16 years

21
65
0 0

Mispronouncing acronyms

by thomas.gardner＠sbcglobal.net

... > > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > > the two cultures could be very confusing. > > I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? BTW, did anyone else use CKD (other than PCMs), perhaps RCA (who arguably was a PCM+)? And was the 3390-3 the last CKD DASD? Tom

16 years

3
2
0 0

yet another pdp-11 in fpga

by W.F.J.Mueller＠gsi.de

Walter F.J. Mueller <W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de> wrote on 21 Jun 2010 21:02:18 +0200 > I'm in the middle of homogenizing some internal interfaces and of some > code cleanup, also the backend handler needs a re-write in C++ (currently > perl). When that's done I'll make the whole package (VHDL sources, test > benches, backend) available on 'OpenCores'. The PDP-11/70 core is now available at OpenCores, see http://opencores.org/project,w11 The documentation is admittedly still rudimentary. The backend handler is still in perl. This and many other things on the TODO list for the future. Walter

16 years

2
1
0 0

Mispronouncing acronyms

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 07:48 PM 8/2/2010, Jason T wrote: >On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith ><afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Really? How could you be sure? Once they're on the screen, don't they look the same? >When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them >where the silicon-based ones are... In the same aisle as the organic mineral supplements. - John

16 years

3
2
0 0

Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...

by clay＠ArcherServices.com

I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently. I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about building an archive of software for the 4051. I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a software library for this fantastic system. Thanks, C. Archer

16 years

17
47
0 0

Mispronouncing acronyms

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >approved" Shoppa. Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" :-) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.

16 years

1
0
0 0

OT: The last roll of Kodachrome

by cclist＠sydex.com

Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more than a couple of photography aficionados on the list: http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/08/Offbeat-News-What-s-On-The- Last-Roll-Of-Kodachrome/ Cheers, Chuck

16 years

3
2
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 84, Issue 5

by bqt＠softjar.se

Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, > and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making > it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, > except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many > I/O pins). > > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a > decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix > 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie > Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. xterm -e kermit However, this also begs the question, what is plotting the the data, if you just output debug information? Some application I would assume...? Why not have that application written on your linux system, and run it inside an xterm, and have the application read the data from the serial port, and then output the approriate stuff to control the window? > There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just > grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything > useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just > can't find anything similar on Linux... tip probably don't exist on Linux, but all you need to know is that tip is a program to connect yourself out on a serial port. Any other program that do the same thing works equally well. And I have yet to see any program that works better for this kind of thing than kermit. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

16 years

1
0
0 0

Mispronouncing acronyms

by bqt＠softjar.se

Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote: > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > > SQL. > > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. Nowadays, with wikipedia and all, one would think that people would actually check things up... :-) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sql, under the history section... I'd say "sequel" is almost more correct than "ess kyu ell". :-) But of course everyone is free to pronounce it any way they see fit. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

16 years

1
0
0 0

Apple/Mac floppy questions

by trag＠io.com

> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:28:27 -0700 > From: Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> > Tony wrote: >>> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that >>> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in >>> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so >>> those >>> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of >>> odd >>> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) >>> >>> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided >>> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac >>> enthusiast may know more. >>> > Jeff wrote: >> I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable >> with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a >> red stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether >> it's red for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run >> continuously. >> >> It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few >> seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. >> > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause > the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The > internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. > > The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive > enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable > the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. Hmmm. I may be remembering what happens when one tries to install an auto-inject floppy drive into a later model Mac which expects a manual inject drive. In which case it has nothing to do with the cable, although I have seen both red and yellow striped. Anyway, I know I was building a system out of bits and pieces and saw that behaviour from the floppy, but maybe it was auto-inject in later model Mac rather than wrong cable. I hadn't started keeping a lab notebook yet, at the time. I know I've built floppy cables for PCI PowerMacs and manual inject floppies using standard ribbon cable and crimp on IDCs (connectors, is that redundant with IDC?). Jeff Walther

16 years

1
0
0 0

preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?)

by jlobocki＠gmail.com

so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? On 7/31/10, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> So, everything needs to be in a vacuum in the dark? > > I would think a vacuum would be a very bad idea. Plenty of things will > outgass (and thus change their properties) in a moderate vacuum. > > -tony >

16 years

4
3
0 0

tek and other scopes avail

by halarewich＠gmail.com

hello all for all the oscilloscope lovers out there this stuff is avail from bc govt surplus website it is not mine http://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/welcome click brouse auctions then scientific / testing equip individ auctions are as follows tek d541 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&di… one lot of 3 bk presision 2120a https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&di… 1 spectrum anyliser hp model 8558b https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&di… lot of 2 kikusui model 5020 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&di… one lot of 6 hitachi model v-212 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&di… this is a bc govt surplus website these are not mine if u bid on the items they can ither be shipped or picked up- location surrey bc canada Chris

16 years

1
0
0 0

IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces)

by bqt＠softjar.se

Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote: > If you have a KA655 VAX CPU, or the SIMH version, you can run the > configure utility to calculate what the CSR address and vector > assignments should be for the set of devices you have. Good tip. Another is that SYSGEN under VMS can also do this. Check the HELP if you are curious. Yet another is FLOAT.CMD, which comes with the DECnet distribution of RSX. And I also have a program written in C from I don't remember where, which allows you to figure out the same information. > For example: > > VAX simulator V3.8-1 > sim> load -r ka655x.bin > sim> boot cpu > KA655-B V5.3, VMB 2.7 > Performing normal system tests. > 40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25.. > 24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09.. > 08..07..06..05..04..03.. > Tests completed. >>>> >>>configure > Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT > Device,Number? help > Devices: > LPV11 KXJ11 DLV11J DZQ11 DZV11 DFA01 > RLV12 TSV05 RXV21 DRV11W DRV11B DPV11 > DMV11 DELQA DEQNA DESQA RQDX3 KDA50 > RRD50 RQC25 KFQSA-DISK TQK50 TQK70 TU81E > RV20 KFQSA-TAPE KMV11 IEQ11 DHQ11 DHV11 > CXA16 CXB16 CXY08 VCB01 QVSS LNV11 > LNV21 QPSS DSV11 ADV11C AAV11C AXV11C > KWV11C ADV11D AAV11D VCB02 QDSS DRV11J > DRQ3B VSV21 IBQ01 IDV11A IDV11B IDV11C > IDV11D IAV11A IAV11B MIRA ADQ32 DTC04 > DESNA IGQ11 > Numbers: > 1 to 255, default is 1 > Device,Number? rqdx3,2 > Device,Number? delqa,1 > Device,Number? tqk50,1 > Device,Number? dhq11,1 > Device,Number? exit > > Address/Vector Assignments > -774440/120 DELQA > -772150/154 RQDX3 > -760334/300 RQDX3 > -774500/260 TQK50 > -760500/310 DHQ11 >>>> >>> And for the curious of mind, the same from FLOAT.CMD: . at du:[200,200]float Determine the floating CSR addresses for your UNIBUS or Q-BUS machine. Type in the number (0 to 16) of devices for each device on the system (<RET> = 0). After you have typed in the number for the device you are interested in, type <ESC> to avoid having to go through the rest of the list. Q-BUS machine? y Number of DUV11s on system: Number of DZV11s on system: Number of VMV21s on system: Number of VMV31s on system: Number of RLV11s on system: Number of RXV11s on system: Number of DPV11s on system: Number of DMV11s on system: Number of RQDX1s on system: 2 Number of KMV11s on system: Number of DHV11s on system: 1 RQDX1 172150 (Fixed CSR) RQDX1 160334 DHV11 160500 (It's obviously missing the DELQA and TQK50) And from SYSGEN.C: .run sysgen Type device names one per line, optionally followed by a comma and a repeat count. Finish with EOF. rqdx3,2 delqa tqk50 dhq11 sysgen: DHQ11: unrecognized device name; ignored dhv11 Table of standard DEC assignments for configuration: DEVICE CSR VECTOR ------------------------- RQDX3 772150 0154 RQDX3 760334* 0300* DELQA 774440 0120 TQK50 774500 0260 DHV11 760500* 0310* CSRs and vectors marked '*' are in floating space. Johnny

16 years

2
1
0 0

S100 omninet driver

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

I seem to recall some talk about omninet. I found a disk labeled "S100 Omninet drivers for CP/M 2.2". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

16 years

3
2
0 0

Apple/Mac floppy questions

by trag＠io.com

> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:39:37 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that > link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in > particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those > pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd > things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) > > I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided > and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac > enthusiast may know more. I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run continuously. It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. Jeff Walther

16 years

3
2
0 0

OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0)

by philpem＠philpem.me.uk

Hi guys, I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many I/O pins). On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

16 years

1
0
0 0

Free empty TI 960B

by richardlynch4＠tx.rr.com

If anyone is interested in an empty TI 960B chassis for the cost of shipping, please contact me offlist. Includes only the frame, motherboard and power supply - no front panel or boards. Even so, it's still big and heavy so local pickup (near Dallas Texas) will save some money. Richard Lynch

16 years

1
1
0 0

wall of sgi photos

by legalize＠xmission.com

I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. <http://picasaweb.google.com/legalize.slc/Warehouse#> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

16 years

4
5
0 0

DEC equipment available, UK (Cheltenham)

by fryers＠gmail.com

All, I have a DECStation 5000/240 and a couple of Storage Expansion boxes I would like to pass on to someone with more time and space than I have. The equipment is currently in Cheltenham, UK. I do a fair bit of driving around the country so I *may* be able to deliver. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh

16 years

2
2
0 0

Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Two PDP-11/03s available

by legalize＠xmission.com

This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:49:19 -0500 Groups: comp.sys.dec From: Jim Haynes <jhaynes at alumni.uark.edu> Reply: jhaynes at alumni.uark.edu Org: University of Arkansas Alumni Subject: Two PDP-11/03s available Id: <kc2dnZs2T-Sy7cnRnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d at earthlink.com> ======== Free if picked up in Northwest Arkansas. These came out of VAX-11/780 systems, so have the 11-03 in its little box and the floppy drive in its awkward mounting and the terminator and boot ROM is on a big VAX board. jhhaynes at earthlink dot net

16 years

2
1
0 0

IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces)

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Brian L. Stuart" <blstuart at bellsouth.net> wrote: >> > There was/is a definitive schema for in which order vectors >> > should be assigned, but it is more or less not used since >> > all the OSes that atleast I have tried actually probe what >> > vector each card uses, and use that vector instead of having >> > some fixed scheme. >> > All that is required is that no two devices use the same >> > vector, because that would be bad. > > This is coming from 25 year old memories, but I seem > to recall there being some that didn't. Back in college > we had an 11/34 that we ran RSTS, RT-11 and 6th edition > UNIX on. IIRC we had to follow the scheme exactly for > all three to work. For one system, I seem to remember > telling it the addresses and it found the vectors. On > another, we told it the vectors and it found the addresses. > On the third, we told it both. We found this out when > we didn't follow the scheme for a 3rd party serial card, > and any deviation would break one or the other. The scheme as such is never needed for any of them. You need to decide somehow on how you want to assign CSRs, and then you need to set those switches or jumpers accordingly on each card. When you build, generate, or set up the system, you need to tell the system exactly which devices you have, and at which CSRs. For some systems, there is a program that can autoprobe and tell you what you have, but you don't have to use that, and once the configuration is done, you don't have to do it again. When the system boots, it uses the information that has been configured into the system previously. So, following DECs scheme can help you, but it is not neccesary to follow it. And for all systems, the CSR *must* be told somehow. Either you can let some auto-detection system do it if you follow the DEC scheme, or you have some config that sets it up. As far as I know, in RT-11 you have a SYSGEN that collects this, and then builds the device drivers with that information. (I think it can do a scan of the system according to the DEC scheme if you want it to.) RSTS/E also use a SYSGEN phase if I remember correctly, but my memory is a bit vague. I've never used Unix 6th ed., but in 2.11BSD you have a config file, which tells both the CSR and the vector. 2.11BSD does not have a mechanism for autodetecting the vector, unless my memory fails me, In RSX, you give all this information in the SYSGEN phase, but you can get default values to be suggested from running the autoconfig program that exist. But having just the vector and not the CSR isn't going to allow you to detect the CSR. From the CSR you can trick out the vector (and for some controllers even program the vector), but the other way just isn't possible. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

16 years

2
1
0 0

I am looking for a power supply of PDP11/44 for donation or to BUY. URGENT

by curador＠museudocomputador.com.br

Jose Carlos Valle curator of Computer Museum Brazil -- * Jos? Carlos Valle - * *S?MENTE PARA DOADORES:* Por favor, preencha o formulario e nos devolva. O recibo deixe junto com a doa??o. Temos v?rios postos em S?o Paulo, Rio de Janeiro etc. Encontre um posto perto de voce para entregar, se n?o, conseguir nos AVISE. via email: curador at museudocomputador.com.br Recolhemos s?mente as quartas feiras. Leia com aten??o o formul?rio. *PS: Assistam os links abaixo e divulguem para empresas, amigos/as. Aten??o: O Museu recolhe o lixo eletronico desde 1998. Quando ninguem pensava e manter o meio ambiente politicamente correto.* * OBS: O Museu do Computador ? uma ONG. * SIGA O MUSEU NO TWITTER: http://twitter.com/curadordomuseu Eventos do Museu assistam os videos http://www.orkut.com.br/Main#FavoriteVideos?uid=4556187644461453698&sm=add O Curador no Jornal Nacional. agosto 2009. Assista agora no link abaixo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJEIuMcYtzA O Curador no Antena Paulista: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO_JFfNiGlE O atual Museu no SPTV maio 2010 http://video.globo.com/Videos/Player/Noticias/0,,GIM1268168-7823-MUSEU+DO+C… Museu na UOL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yz0XtCox2g O Museu no Olhar Digital na Rede TV, maio 2010. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yLggafyqkk NOVO LOCAL DO MUSEU DO COMPUTADOR. www.museudocomputador.com.br Rua dos andradas, 237 - Galeria Continental - lojas 507,508,509. CEP 1212-010 Telefone - (11) 4666-7545 - . Contato: Jos? Carlos Valle ? Curador E-mail: para agendamento e doa??o: curador at museudocomputador.com.br -

16 years

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Apple/Mac floppy questions

by brianlanning＠gmail.com

A couple questions... Are there any differences between the double density and high density auto inject floppy drives? That is, could I put a high density drive in an older classic mac and expect it to work? It would be nice to get a hold of three or so extra auto-inject floppy drives for some vintage macs. But they seem to be expensive and hard to find. I noticed that the external 3.5" floppy drives for the 2gs seem to be plentiful. Are they the same mechanism? brian

16 years

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retr0brite not so right?

by feedle＠feedle.net

I think people are kind-of forgetting something in this discussion: "value" is set by the people that are buying, and for every collectable there are probably different rules. We can look to the classic car collectors for guidance here. With some cars (say, like the Model T) there are still tons of old-stock parts out there, so for a Model T to have extraordinary value requires that it has all OEM parts. Contrast that to a Tucker, where even the OEM used weird parts on some cars given the prototype nature.. however, documentation is always key. An excellent contra-example is in cameras. You could have a pristeen in-the-box Polaroid camera and a barely working similar vintage TLR.. guess what's worth more? It isn't the Polaroid. The TLR likely still is a functional camera (film is available). Polaroid film by in large is not available. It is sensible to me that limited modification to maintain an operational state wouldn't affect the collectible value much, especially compared to "not working at all."

16 years

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Question on DG/Walkabout/One Sharp models

by bdamer＠digitalspace.com

Say does anyone on this list know if the Data General Walkabout was ever released to the public (ie used outside of DG corporation) and what year/month that would have been. The SX model was released but what year too? Also was the DG/One released in 1984 and what month then too? Lastly does anyone know when the Sharp MZ-200 was released? bruce

16 years

2
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IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces)

by bqt＠update.uu.se

Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > Older cards usually use DIP-switches, while modern cards usually are >> > programmed. (And as others mentioned, it could also be jumpers, which works the same way as dip-switches, but might take some soldering to reconnect... :-) ) >> > Remember that you don't need the interrupt vector to talk with the card >> > in polled mode, so you can talk with the card, and set up stuff before >> > you allow it to start generating interrupts... >> > >> > What you drift into, Ethan, is then the question of deciding what >> > interrupt vector to actually set on the card. This is also an >> > interesting topic. >> > >> > Very few devices have more than one reserved vector. That is, if we talk >> > of one vector as assigned to one card. Some cards had more than one >> > vector because of the nature of the card, such as a terminal interface >> > which actually use two vectors. One vector for receiving characters, and >> > one vector for transmitting characters. I can only remember one device >> > where more than one set of vectors were reserved, and I think it ran to >> > eight for that one. I'd have to look in a processor book to check the >> > actual name of that device, though. >> > >> > For all other devices, vectors are allocated from the "floating" vector >> > space, which is everything from 300(8) to 774(8). >> > Each vector takes two words, the the lowest two bits of a vector is >> > always 0, and are usually not even available on the switch pack, or >> > register where you program the vector. > I'm guessing/assuming a "word" is 16-bits, so a vector is 32-bits in > all. (Snipped from my original question is my admission that I know > absolutely nothing about DEC gear.) Yes. A word is 16 bits on a PDP-11. The device presents a 16-bit vector on the bus when the interrupt is acknowledged by the CPU. This 16-bit vector from the device is then used to read the interrupt vector table in memory, where each entry consist of two 16-bit words. One is the new PC to be used, and the other is the new PSW. So, when a device fields an interrupt, and it get's processed, the current PC and PSW (processor status word, which holds condition codes, current interrupt level, and some other stuff) gets pushed on the stack, and a new PC and PSW is loaded, and the processor continues from there. Already running in the interrupt handler from instruction one. The reverse is the RETI or RETN instructions, which pops a PC and PSW >from the stack and puts them in the processor registers again. >> > For a device like a terminal interface, the next bit was also reserved, >> > since it was used to differentiate between transmit and receive, so two >> > vectors were programmed with one switch pack. >> > >> > There was/is a definitive schema for in which order vectors should be >> > assigned, but it is more or less not used since all the OSes that >> > atleast I have tried actually probe what vector each card uses, and use >> > that vector instead of having some fixed scheme. > I'm guessing again that you stimulate the card in some fashion, the card > generates an interrupt, and you check to see which interrupt was > received. I suppose if the card has no such facility you just have to > know from a configuration file or something. Correct. You set up a "fake" PC/PSW pair for all vectors, with some variation, which makes it possible to see in that interrupt handler exactly which vector that we got the interrupt through, and then we can change that vector to point to the correct interrupt handler. And we get the card to generate the interrupt so that we can do the whole detection thing. >> > All that is required is that no two devices use the same vector, because >> > that would be bad. > I imagine that would be *very* bad. :-( Indeed. I guess that in theory you could have an interrupt handler that then tried to figure out which device was generating the interrupt, but that kindof defeats the whole idea of having each device present a interrupt vector. >>> >> In practice, there weren't as many kinds of interfaces for the Unibus >>> >> as there ended up being for the ISA bus, so it may sound like anarchy, >>> >> but it wasn't. I think in 20-ish years of the hey-day of the Unibus, >>> >> they only ever reassigned CSR addresses once or twice, but it was >>> >> extremely unlikely that you'd have a particular obscure peripheral >>> >> from 1970, literally, on the same bus as a stack of c. 1990 disk >>> >> controllers and Ethernet interfaces. Electrically, they would work >>> >> together, but logically, a user would have no need to use 20-year-old >>> >> devices. The only "old" device we ever used on our VAX-11/750 was an >>> >> LP11, an original line-printer interface. The rest of the cards in >>> >> our machine were manufactured 10-15 years later. Some of our devices, >>> >> then, had a DIP switch for CSR assignment, but not for vector >>> >> assignment. Something older, like a PDP-11/34, was probably a >>> >> different story. >> > >> > No, it's just the same for any PDP-11, just as for VAXen with Unibuses. >> > >> > You *must* use dip-switches for CSRs, or possibly accept that it is at a >> > fixed address, which is a very bad idea. > That does indeed seem like a very bad idea. That would limit us to only having one controller of that type, ever, on that bus. Not a limitation some would be happy with. >> > Vectors are either set with DIP switches, or programmed into the card at >> > initialization time. >> > >> > But vectors are the simple part of the Unibus. The fact that it's easy >> > to autodetect the vector makes it even simpler. All you need to make >> > sure is that you don't have a conflict, and your vector issues are done. >> > >> > The interesting part of the Unibus is actually the CSRs. As the I/O >> > address page is only 8K, and some devices use quite a few registers in >> > that area, this is a short resource, so you cannot in general make a >> > permanent allocation in the I/O page for all possible combination of >> > devices you might have. > I assume that is 8K bytes, so only 4K CSRs. But maybe they are not all > words, I dunno. For all I know, some are 32 bits... No, that is correct. Since the PDP-11 access things as 8 or 16 bits, you could in theory have 8K registers. But registers are normally 16 bits, or atleast addressed on even addresses, which limits it to 4K registers. No registers are actually 32 bits, although most devices have more than one register, and some controllers actually combine registers to manage quantities larger than 16 bits (such as physical addresses, which can be 18 bits, or 22 bits, depending on system and controller). >> > So DEC designed a scheme for automatically detecting and configuring >> > devices on the Unibus. (Plug and play long before the PC saw the light >> > of day.) This do, however, require you to change the CSR address of >> > devices way more often than you might think. >> > >> > The general idea runs like this. For most of the common devices, *one* >> > CSR address is reserved. So, for the first device, you know which >> > address to set it to. Any additional devices of that type goes into the >> > floating address space. >> > >> > Each device additionally have a priority, size and modulo number. This >> > is all on paper. For autoconfiguration to work, you then start with the >> > highest priority device, and starts assigning CSRs to the devices you >> > actually have of that type. When you are done, you go on to the next >> > device, and repeat the exercise. Repeat until you've run through the >> > whole list of device types, and by then you will have the CSR address of >> > all the devices you have in your machine. >> > Now, if you add one additional device of some type, it will probably >> > affect the CSR address of all devices you have which have a lower >> > priority, moving them in the floating address space. The same is true if >> > you remove some device from the machine, which were located in the >> > floating address space. >> > >> > More specifically the algorithm goes like this. >> > (In pseudo-code, all numbers octal) >> > >> > CSR=160010 >> > DEV_PRIO=1 >> > >> > while (! end_of_devices_you_have) >> > CSR = round_up(CSR, device_modulo(DEV_PRIO)) >> > for (number_of_devices(DEV_PRIO)) do >> > this_device_csr = CSR >> > CSR = round_up(CSR+device_size(DEV_PRIO), device_modulo(DEV_PRIO)) >> > next >> > CSR += 2 >> > next >> > >> > >> > Worth pointing out: >> > Floating address space starts at 160010, and goes up. Preallocated CSR >> > addresses are usually very high up in this space, and were allocated >> > downwards. They "end" up somewhere around 174xxx space or so. I'm sure >> > someone could locate the lowest pre-allocated CSR address that DEC >> > assigned by looking in some processor book. > Hmmm. I get about 6KB decimal in all. I can see where you could run > out if you have many cards. Just thinking about a typical UART has 8 > each and ISTR a floppy controller has about that many too. About 6KB is left after the "reserved" addresses are accounted for, yes. But no, the typical serial interface on a PDP-11 uses two registers for transmit, and two registers for receive, although they are 16 bits. One for data, and one for control. And actually, when we talk about serial ports, we should remember that usually you had cards that controlled maybe 8 or 16 ports, using just maybe eight registers. The floppy controllers depend, but for the 8" floppy, which is the most primitive (thus using the most registers), it's still only like six registers or so. The modern floppy controllers use only two registers. >> > Between each device type, one CSR address is reserved. This means that >> > when you scan for devices, you'll run through one type at a time, and >> > stop when you hit an address where there is nothing responding. You then >> > go on to the next type. >> > It's important to understand that the space after this non-existant >> > address do not need to be the same size as that of the actual devices >> > for that prio. That would be wasteful of address space. Once you hit the >> > non-existant address, you start scanning for the next device type, using >> > the modulo of that device type instead. So if you have one device type >> > which uses 20 registers, and you don't have any of that type, you'll >> > only waste one register, plus the modulo of the next device type. >> > >> > Once all the CSRs have been figured out, the DEC official scheme for >> > vector allocation was basically to just allocate all vectors, starting >> > at 300, for all the devices you have, packed together as closely as >> > possible. No need for unused spaces, or anything else here. >> > >> > But this is all about the scheme for actually deciding what to use. The >> > actual method of getting the card to know this info was switchpacks, or >> > for vectors, programming a register. >> > >> > Johnny >> > > That's a lot of info. I think I'll save a copy in my DEC subfolder for > later reference. Feel free to ask if there is anything more you wonder about... :-) Johnny

16 years

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FPGA-Elf

by eric＠brouhaha.com

I finished my RetroChallenge entry with one day to spare. FPGA-Elf is the COSMAC Elf reimplemented using an FPGA with an 1802 soft core. Video of demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IhDMDVBYio Blog entries: http://whats.all.this.brouhaha.com/category/computing/retrocomputing/retroc… RetroChallenge site: http://retrochallenge.net/ Thanks to Jim Donnelly, Richard Ottosen, and Jim Phillips for help assembling the front panel.

16 years

1
0
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N8VEM project with my son?

by tom.manos＠gmail.com

Hi, I'm about to embark on building a single board computer (an N8VEM) as a project with my 15yo son. My son is a typical gamer kid who spends most of his waking moments either in front of a computer playing WOW, or reading SF and fantasy. I'm trying to find something a bit more positive about technology for him to enjoy. The operative word is enjoy. Anyway, he's agreed to give it a shot, and I'm thinking through how to make this a great experience for him. I've got a fair amount of background (BSEE and MSCS), and understand the technology, at least theoretically, from bare silicon to flip flops, to computer block diagrams. I'm reasonably well versed in Z80 assembly language programming and the CP/M operating system, which is what the N8VEM runs. I've got the equipment (electronics soldering station, good DMM, logic probe, bench power supply, etc) and have access to an OScope if I need one. And I actually sort of remember how to use them :) My question for you folks is: At what level, and in what order should I try to teach some theory to my son? Should I do some background before we start soldering sockets and ICs to boards and wiring things up, or just jump right in to building? I've been thinking jump in and fill in the theory as I can as we go along. In the end we should have something that looks like an Altair with more modern HW: solid state drives, and maybe IDE, but still has a front panel and which runs traditional CP/M 2.2. I have lots of old software to run there, languages, editors, games, etc. Have any of you tried something like this with your children? Experiences and wisdom gratefully accepted! Cheers, Tom

16 years

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N8VEM project with my son?

by gerhard.kreuzer＠liftoff.at

Hi Tom, Nice idea. Now lets think a moment, that your son fell in love with writing software during your project. You teach him pretty old stuff, so he find himself back in the 80's, and his friend calling him 'grandpa'..... Maybe it's a better approach to start out with modern equipment, I will give you a link. This is modern hardware, like boards built in the smartphones, you can create pretty little apps and you almost learn something about hardware step by step. After that, your son finds himself in 2011 and if he look around for some job, he will be welcome to companies. I think, he isn't that interesting for companies, when he notes down 'Skills in Z80 Assembler and CP/M'. Maybe the people there didn't know what he talking about .... On the other hand, I grow up with pdp8, Z80 and CP/M, we build the very first microprocessor based systems here in Austria as a very small company, which I founded with a friend during my studies at university, so I like this old stuff and I am a collector too and I also think, thats fine if there were young people knowing to use this stuff, but as a jump start for a main carrier, ....?? Look at: Hardware, especially look for 'development systems' <http://www.antratek.com/EmbeddedMaster.html> http://www.antratek.com/EmbeddedMaster.html <http://www.ghielectronics.com/> http://www.ghielectronics.com/ Software: <http://www.microsoft.com/netmf/default.mspx> http://www.microsoft.com/netmf/default.mspx With best regards Gerhard OE3GKC

16 years

6
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Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/19/10, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote: > I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything > in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional > sync of my Psion 7book... I use serial ports every week. > I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind > on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy > and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with > baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful > 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have > to refresh it. It may be hateful 1960s nonsense, but if you know how it works, presuming you have the ability to control all the parameters of one end of a connection (software-controlled params, jumpers, straps, solder bumps, etc), you can still take something made in 1968 and attach it to something made in 2008. One recent case in point - After a couple of nights studying the schematics and the present state of the wiring (they mostly matched, after a fashion) of a 1970s Bridgeport Series II CNC mill (that has an embedded LSI-11 CPU!), I was able to build a round-8-pin-connector to DE-9 serial cable and interface the Bridgeport to a modern Dell that was also being used to drive a Shopbot. One thing relevant to this discussion about it was that we struggled with verifying that it worked when we tried to talk to it via a handy Thinkpad with a USB serial adapter (communication worked from the Bridgeport, but not to it). On a hunch, once we located a 6' extender cable, it worked on the Dell the first try. I'm reasonably certain the voltages on the USB serial adapter were out of spec for "true" RS-232 - the Bridgeport uses 1488s and 1489s, not modernish MAX232 drivers or other wiildly-forgiving line drivers/recievers. So for wiring up a passive cable, I was able to breathe life into a 30+ year old three ton machine. I was possible because I had a machine with a proper RS-232 port that stepped in where a machine that only had USB failed. > Apple did serial ports right on the Mac. You plugged things in, they > worked, thankyou and goodnight. Mac-designed things, sure, but Apple didn't make it easy to talk to the world full of "standard" serial devices (of which there were *lots* in the 1980s). > But try interfacing non-Apple kit to > Macs, or to anything else, and the horror-story of RS232 dropped you > into the nightmare of RS423 and so on. I shudder to recall. Exactly. Around the time the Mac switched from DE-9s to DIN8s, I was in the business of manufacturing serial interfaces for DEC hosts. I worked with sync and async RS-232 cables and ports and drivers and application code every day. I still found it to be a pain to get the right arrangement to hook a Mac up to some foreign device. It got easier later when you could just buy a suitable cable off the shelf, but for a time, it was difficult. > I really like USB. I really do not like USB. It takes hundreds of cycles and more to move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. The host-based aspect of it is probably my biggest peeve - with a serial port, it's just TxD, RxD and perhaps some handshaking lines (more likely in the past, but sometimes supported in recent products). What that means to me is that I can buy a device that might be intended as a client (a Palm Pilot, to give a specific and handy example) and by dropping an app on it, turn what was manufactured to be a "receptive" device into an "active" device - such as use it as a VT100 replacement for configuring Cisco routers (boy my boss's eyes bugged out when I pulled a Palm out of my pocket, clicked in a serial cable and fixed something in seconds instead of leaving the room, retrieving a laptop, setting it up, etc., etc.) A USB-equipped Palm is meant to be addressed as a 'peripheral' and cannot be a 'host' - that limits its usefulness to me. > For storage, I preferred Firewire, but that's going away now, sadly. I will agree with you there. Just last night, I was helping a friend with a dying LaCie drive on a Macbook and I was happy we had a Firewire 800 cable that walked into the door at the right moment - it turned a 55 hour copy job via USB into a 31 hour copy job (dd to a container file - hopefully there's enough left of the old drive to extract enough files from to make the exercise worthwhile). > But USB works, is wonderfully versatile, fairly > idiot-proof and does everything I want or need: keyboard, mice, > scanners, printers, storage, modems and networking once in a blue > moon... It's terrific. It has some advantages - power for light-duty peripherals is great, simple connectors is great, not having to worry about DCE and DTE orientation is handy. It's great for mice and keyboards, sure, but I'm less convinced about higher-bandwidth uses. And lest you think this is all some sort of neo-luddite rant, I've built and programmed USB-based peripherals like the USB4LCD. I participate (occasionally in recent years) on the libusb developers' mailing list. I've written user-mode USB drivers with libusb. I've debugged USB command packets and initialization code. I'm using a USB mouse right now. USB still drives me nuts. I'm hardly advocating the death of USB (though I don't think I'd shed a lone tear over it). What disappoints me is the loss of a "real" serial port on portable hardware (starting with old Macbooks, but now across the Intel world as well) and the massive overhead that comes with using a "USB serial port" (like the well-documented problems that Makerbot folks have with FTDI driver issues - things work better when you don't have a USB physical layer between your application code and your Makerbot, but few people run that way, in part because for many bot owners, their Netbooks or Macbooks or whatever have any sort of way to talk to the outside world except WiFi, Ethernet or USB). I also do a lot with microcontrollers, MCS51-family and Atmel AVR, mostly. You _can_ make an 8MHz Atmel do USB in software (cf USB4LCD), but it's a whole lot easier to tell that same chip that there's someone connected on its UART and speaking async at 9600 8N1 - you get lots more of your ROM available for application code, and you can attach that MCU to a much larger field of devices with a simple serial port. -ethan P.S. - I know USB is "consumer-friendly" and I know I fall far, far outside the definition of a "consumer", but that doesn't change the fact that ubiquitous RS-232 ports make my life easier and USB comes with a bag of hassles.

16 years

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AW: N8VEM project with my son?

by gerhard.kreuzer＠liftoff.at

Hi Tom, Nice idea. Now lets think a moment, that your son fell in love with writing software during your project. You teach him pretty old stuff, so he find himself back in the 80's, and his friend calling him 'grandpa'..... Maybe it's a better approach to start out with modern equipment, I will give you a link. This is modern hardware, like boards built in the smartphones, you can create pretty little apps and you almost learn something about hardware step by step. After that, your son finds himself in 2011 and if he look around for some job, he will be welcome to companies. I think, he isn't that interesting for companies, when he notes down 'Skills in Z80 Assembler and CP/M'. Maybe the people there didn't know what he talking about .... On the other hand, I grow up with pdp8, Z80 and CP/M, we build the very first microprocessor based systems here in Austria as a very small company, which I founded with a friend during my studies at university, so I like this old stuff and I am a collector too and I also think, thats fine if there were young people knowing to use this stuff, but as a jump start for a main carrier, ....?? Look at: Hardware, especially look for 'development systems' http://www.antratek.com/EmbeddedMaster.html http://www.ghielectronics.com/ Software: http://www.microsoft.com/netmf/default.mspx With best regards Gerhard OE3GKC -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Juli 2010 07:04 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 83, Issue 48 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. AT&T Eo (was Re: Before the iPad, there was the Newton) (Ray Arachelian) 2. M68000 ASM to machine code table (Andrew Burton) 3. RE: M68000 ASM to machine code table (dwight elvey) 4. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Ray Arachelian) 5. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Ray Arachelian) 6. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Dennis Boone) 7. RE: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Rob Jarratt) 8. Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table (Andrew Burton) 9. Re: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) (Tony Duell) 10. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Richard) 11. Osborne HD distro floppy? (Chuck Guzis) 12. Re: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... (Jacob Dahl Pind) 13. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Dave McGuire) 14. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Dave McGuire) 15. X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login) (Ethan Dicks) 16. Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login) (Pete Turnbull) 17. Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login (Sridhar Ayengar) 18. Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login) (Dave McGuire) 19. RE: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? (Erik Klein) 20. Re: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? (Evan Koblentz) 21. Re: retr0brite not so right? (Martin Goldberg) 22. N8VEM project with my son? (The Pitlog) 23. Re: RTEM-11 (Johnny Billquist) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:45:20 -0400 From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> Subject: AT&T Eo (was Re: Before the iPad, there was the Newton) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C506CB0.4070300 at arachelian.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 07/28/2010 03:40 AM, Adrian Burgess wrote: > Admission : I have an EO 440... and I've still not got it working, it > came with batteries (long exhausted, obviously), and I don't have a PSU. > You can easily replace the batteries in that with standard NiCAD C cells (I think). I suppose in a pinch you could just replace it with regular alkaline C cells just to get it to power on - but obviously NEVER try to plug in a charger. The battery pack is just a heat sensor + all of the C cells wired together in series held together by shrinkwrapped plastic. Not sure about the power supply (don't have it infront of me, but if I remember, I can lookup the specs when I get home.) The Eo 880 has completely different sized NiCAD batteries, I'm not sure you can easily make replacements. Might be A or B cells. The 880 has a scsi port and a completely different internal hard drive - not sure what kind either are, but they don't look like anything standard. The 440 and 880 aren't that different otherwise, the 880's slightly faster and might have a larger hard disk, plus the scsi port. I vaguely remember them having a floppy port, but not sure which machine (or maybe both) had it. They also might have had parallel ports. My 880 came with a dead ROM, but I was able to get it to work using the ROM board from a 440 - I hope there's no extras on the 880 ROM card. The ROM card looks sort of like a PCMCIA card, but with a different connector. The dead ROM looked like it had a manufacturing defect, as if there was extra paint that prevented the soldering from working. They were awesome machines, and the Penpoint OS was quite nifty. Looked like a tabbed notebook, with each tab being a different application. I recall there was a tab UI for Windows 3.1 that resembled it. Penpoint's HWR sucked when compared to even an original Newton - you had to write each letter in a specific box, and even that didn't work right. Of course Newton Intelligence 2.0's HWR killed everything else's hand writing recognition, too bad the ipad doesn't use that. Rumor has it it's still (or was?) part of OS X, but I've no idea how to enable it, or use it. There was a copy of PenPoint for a specific black and white IBM Thinkpad (TP730?) which had an intel 386SX chip that ran at a faster clock rate, but was of course much slower than the Eo's Hobbit CPU. That Thinkpad could run a Pen version of Windows 95 as well. The magnetic pen from this machine could work on an Eo, but had a button that acted as the right click mouse button. I think there was some issue with the sensitivity of this pen when used with Eo's - if you got too close to the Eo's screen it would misread the location. Both sets of machines used a magnetic digitizer, so a regular stylus wouldn't work. If you don't have that specific pen, or one similar to it, your Eo is going to be unusable. Maybe some early Wacom (or other) tablets use this, not sure. The Hobbit CPU is an interesting beast. Not quite CISC, not quite RISC, they called it a CRISP processor I think. It's actually a stack based CPU that uses the stack (and of course the cache) instead of registers. Beautiful assembly on this beast... The only other machine that uses it AFIK was the original pre-release BeBox. This was originally designed to be friendly to C and C++, but of course Apple went with ARM instead for the Newts... If you had the cellular module you'd know it. It adds quite a lot of extra plastic to the bottom and has a desk phone handset on top. It's completely worthless now - at least in the US as analog cell service has been shut off. see: http://www.pcworld.com/article/188228/atandt_eo_440_personal_communicator_19 93.html AT&T even had a data service for it (beyond the fax application) that was based on the uucp commands. Was probably just email. Not sure. If you do manage to power it up, see if there's any interesting software on the hard drive (if it has one). I think there was a spreadsheet and some other office software for it. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:39:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <760226.31289.qm at web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something along the lines of: move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78 Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often (always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need the machine code references to start with! Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I have started, but having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l instruction I feel that this could be another long project.... Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:49:08 -0700 From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> Subject: RE: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <SNT129-W53B323B806EEA4E6A32A07A3A80 at phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi I have code in Forth that will assemble 68K code. Dwight > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:39:40 +0000 > From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > Subject: M68000 ASM to machine code table > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Hi, > > I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something along the lines of: > > move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78 > > > Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often (always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need the machine code references to start with! > Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I have started, but having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l instruction I feel that this could be another long project.... > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:55:45 -0400 From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C508B41.1070802 at arachelian.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 07/28/2010 03:39 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, > > I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something along the lines of: > > move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78 > > > Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often (always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need the machine code references to start with! > Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I have started, but having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l instruction I feel that this could be another long project.... > See if you can grab it out of gas or as sources. as can be found here: http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/ or this: http://www.easy68k.com/ Generator ( http://squish.net/generator ) has these as well, plus a disassembler, but the above links are probably easier. Generator code is part of LisaEm, so grabbing LisaEm source would get you this too. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:58:06 -0400 From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C508BCE.5090201 at arachelian.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 actually this is probably exactly what you're after: http://goldencrystal.free.fr/M68kOpcodes.pdf ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:01:17 -0400 From: Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20100728200117.74956DA6001 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something > along the lines of: > move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78 It appears the reason this doesn't exist in the form you describe is because of a somewhat bit-by-bit encoding. You already stumbled over this. But googling (hint) finds: http://goldencrystal.free.fr/M68kOpcodes.pdf http://www.ticalc.org/pub/text/68k/68kpm.zip De ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:24:07 +0100 From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> Subject: RE: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009501cb2e92$d5fad6c0$81f08440$@jarratt at ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 28 July 2010 00:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login > > On 7/27/10 6:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I would agree that it sounds odd, but the person telling me knows his > stuff > > and this has been his experience. > > I'm sorry for how terrible this will sound, but I don't know how else > to say it...Where X is concerned, I know my stuff as well, and it > really > doesn't sound like your friend does. I mean no disrespect either to > you > or to him by that statement. I have an X11 window directly to the > right > of the window I'm typing this message in, it's showing colors, and it's > being displayed here from another system on the network. I run like > this all day, every day. I'm not running Exceed, but a different > (current technology) X server, but the concepts and protocol are the > same. > > > I suspect the SHM thing could be why it works on a real workstation, > > Nope. SHM (more properly "MIT-SHM") is only used for images. > (XImage > objects in particular, and sometimes pixmaps) Background colors or > drawn objects don't use SHM. It's used where image transfer speed is > important, like video and animations. > > > or perhaps it is some DEC-specific thing? > > Nope. I've run color X terminals (which is essentially what you're > doing with Exceed) from DEC X implementations, and they work fine. > This > is where it call came from, after all: DEC was a member of MIT's > Project > Athena, where X originated. I've never seen anything DEC specific > there > with the exception of DDX (device-dependent) code and their window > manager. The former is almost by definition vendor-specific, and the > latter is too, but perhaps less so depending on your point of view. > > Some background: An X client program (which includes your login > window, it's an X client too) initiates a connection to the X server > and > does a few things, including optionally making a call to > XGetVisualInfo() to get the list of "visuals" that the server supports. > A "visual" is basically a target display type that specifies the color > depth of the display, and might be something like "monochrome", "8-bit > greyscale", "8-bit pseudocolor", "true color", etc. Most X servers > support many different visuals simultaneously. The X client then > selects the visual it wants to use. (a note for the pedantic: yes, > I've > skipped many Xlib calls and details here for brevity) > > It's possible that Exceed does not have any color visuals that the > login window X client supports or wants to select. > > Note that I typed "OPTIONALLY makes a call to XGetVisualInfo()" > above. > It's possible for an X client to just use the "default" visual, and > that is server-specific, and usually configurable. On most X servers, > the default visual (actually visual "class") is set on the command line > when the server is started. I have no idea of how to set the default > visual for Exceed. > > We can drill down a bit further if you'll log into the machine via > Exceed, and run "xdpyinfo" and look at the output. Pay attention to > the > visual names and IDs that it reports as being available. Are there any > color visuals present? Also, look at the default visual ID for the > first "screen" entry. See if that visual ID is that of a color visual. > If it isn't, but if there are in fact color visuals present, it's > possible that the login window X client was written to only use the > default visual, which may not be a color visual under Exceed, but might > be a color visual on the workstation. It's also possible that the > login > window X client is configurable via its app-defaults file. We can > check > on that if you strike out with the visuals described above. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X. I don't have xdpyinfo as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am running VMS 5.4). Exceed offers the following settings for the server visual: Auto Select GrayScale PseudoColor StaticColor StaticGray StaticGray (Depth 1) TrueColor I got Exceed to create a trace file, this is what it showed after I started the login program: Exceed for Win32 Version 11.0.0.0 Transports DLL For Network And Local Loopback Copyright C 1991-2005 Hummingbird Ltd. All Rights Reserved. 8:21pm Wed, Jul 28, 2010 Windows XP Version: 6.1 CJK installed Machine Class: 686 Model 23 Stepping 6 Num. of Processors: 1 Computer Name: WIN7TEST User Name: RobAdmin User Path: C:\Users\RobAdmin\AppData\Roaming\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\ Keyboard File: uk102.kbf Alternate Keyboard: us.kbf Imm32.dll status: Loadable CJK Input: Available. RENDER: Enabled Trace Initially On: Yes PC Address: 192.168.0.11:0 (TCP/IP) PC Address: fe80::1cba:bfa:3f57:fff4:0 (TCP/IP6) -1 > Set Font Path: default Load FDB report: Screen 0: Physical Monitor 1 (RDPDD Chained DD) - Video Capabilities: Primary Monitor : TRUE Depth : 32 Palette Manager : Not present Server Class : TrueColor Screen 0 Dimensions: top:0, left:0, width:1024, height:728. -1 > OpenFont: fixed -1 < C:\Program Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\6x13.fon -1 > OpenFont: cursor -1 < C:\Program Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\cursor.wff 3 > OpenFont: -*-menu-medium-r-normal--*-120-*-*-p-*-iso8859-1 3 < C:\Program Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\dec100\menu12.fon Connection read error at 41988 3:Window (login_db) Cannot find color 'decwblue' Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I found a definition of decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour logo. However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here: http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem to be any errors related to that though. There is also an error in the log above reading a font, is the font supposed to be on the X server or downloaded from the client? After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in the log too: 3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor 3 < C:\Program Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in Xconfig. Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in Xconfig. Connection read error at 144525 Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are. Anyway I have some colour now and it looks more like I would like it. Thanks Rob ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:32:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <732996.66171.qm at web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes, that's exactly what I'm after. Thank you (and everyone else) for the help. I did try googling, but my choice of keywords kept sending me to wikipedia and various sites containing just assembler information. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 28/7/10, Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> wrote: From: Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> Subject: Re: M68000 ASM to machine code table To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Wednesday, 28 July, 2010, 20:58 actually this is probably exactly what you're after: http://goldencrystal.free.fr/M68kOpcodes.pdf ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:55:26 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <m1OeCj0-000J1sC at p850ug1> Content-Type: text/plain > > On 7/27/10, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > Goin back ot the very early Unibus devices, there were 3 cards -- the > > device controlelr itself, an M105 address selector (which had jumpers to > > set the device address) and an M782/M7820/M7821 Interrupt card which had > > the jumpers to set the vector. > > Good point. I had forgotten about those - all of my comments apply to > SPCs (Small Peripheral Controllers), not backplane-sized devices > (there were a few SPCs even in the earliest days, like the LP11 I > mentioned). > Actually, the original SPCs were 3 boards. A dual-height board containing the specific device control/interface circuity that went in connectors C and D of the SPC slot, an M105 address selector module in connector E and a M782 (or M7820, M7821) interrupt logic module in connector F. That's why there are connections betweeen the various connectos on the SPC slot. I hae a DR11-A that's like that, and I think I have a KL11 (current loop only console port) done that way too. And possibly some others. Even when everything went on one quad-height SPC card, some devices still consisted of 3 independant circuits on that card, connected via the backplane connecotrs only, In other words there would be an address selector circuit on the quad card conencted to connector E only. It would output the approrpiate eanble signals on fingers of connector E, they would then be routed to connector C/D via the backplane and thus to the device logic. My PC11 is built that way. I also have some 3rd party dual height cards that combine the functions of the address sekector and interrupt logic and which go in connectors E?F, along with a dual-height SPC card in C/D -tony ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:35:55 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <E1OeDM3-0001bS-Od at shell.xmission.com> In article <009501cb2e92$d5fad6c0$81f08440$@jarratt at ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> writes: > Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X. I don't have xdpyinfo > as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am running VMS 5.4). Exceed > offers the following settings for the server visual: xdpyinfo is a standard X11 client. I would be very surprised if it wasn't on VMS, assuming you have the X11 client programs built for VMS and installed. > Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I found a definition of > decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour > logo. However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern > for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here: > http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when > you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem > to be any errors related to that though. Usually this stuff is configurable with scripts. Last time I ran X11 regularly in the early 90s I had scripts that changed the background of the login screen. DEC has probably customized their standard login screen in a similar fashion. > There is also an error in the log above reading a font, is the font supposed > to be on the X server or downloaded from the client? The font database is maintained by the server. In X11, fonts are never on the client. > > After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in > the log too: > > 3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor > 3 < C:\Program > Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > Connection read error at 144525 > > Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are. It looks like your initialization script is attempting to do xhost to add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See <http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a public/private key pair based way of doing things. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:40:00 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Osborne HD distro floppy? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4C503330.3210.CF636E at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've been asked by a collector not on this list if anyone has a copy of the floppy " "Drive C for the Osborne Computer" kicking around. Let me know and I'll pass it on. Thanks, Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:05:20 +0200 From: Jacob Dahl Pind <rachael at telefisk.org> Subject: Re: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4C50A9A0.8030309 at telefisk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 07/26/2010 08:03 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The servers out there now typically either use a bespoke implementation, > since the protocol is so simple to implement (I believe Jacob's is written > in Rexx), or Bucktooth (my Perl implementation) or pygopherd (John > Goerzen's python implementation). I imagine also there are a few forgotten > sites out there still running UMN gopherd. John did some work on updating > the UMN gopher distribution and you can get it from > have actual been using UMN with my own patches here, have changed to gophernicus yesterday, after I had changed the code a bit to use loging to a file instead of syslog, and changed the logging format somewhat. I looked at bucktooth and had actual wanted to use the same format, but I couldnt find any descript of it. The one I wrote in arexx was mostly used to handle local transfers between machines here. -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:55:49 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C50A765.5000307 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 7/28/10 4:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X. I don't have xdpyinfo > as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am running VMS 5.4). Ahh, for some reason I assumed you were running Ultrix. The xdpyinfo program is a fairly standard part of the X distributions, though, and it's likely there somewhere. > Exceed offers the following settings for the server visual: > > Auto Select > GrayScale > PseudoColor > StaticColor > StaticGray > StaticGray (Depth 1) > TrueColor Ok, that's a good selection that should support pretty much any client. > I got Exceed to create a trace file, this is what it showed after I started > the login program: ... > Cannot find color 'decwblue' Ah-HA! > Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I found a definition of > decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour > logo. Excellent! Good sleuthing! > However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern > for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here: > http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when > you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem > to be any errors related to that though. Yes, that's the default X backround pattern. The default background for xdm should be settable in its resources via its app-defaults file. But...does DECwindows use something other than ordinary xdm by default? Do SHOW PROCESS and find out; I don't recall. > There is also an error in the log above reading a font, is the font supposed > to be on the X server or downloaded from the client? Standard X fonts reside on the server. I say "standard X fonts" because there's a trend in current X development to do font handling on the client side. That won't be happening here, though. > After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in > the log too: > > 3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor > 3 < C:\Program > Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > Connection read error at 144525 > > Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are. I'm not sure what that is either; I've never seen a message like that. I'm betting it's Exceed-specific. > Anyway I have some colour now and it looks more like I would like it. Excellent! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:55:51 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C50A767.6060201 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 7/28/10 4:35 PM, Richard wrote: > The font database is maintained by the server. In X11, fonts are > never on the client. This (unfortunately) isn't the case anymore. There's a big trend nowadays toward moving font handling into the client. This is a bad idea for a bunch of reasons, but there's just no convincing the GTK crowd of anything. The results are gorgeous, but heaven help you if you try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida...thank heaven that stuff isn't using client-side font handling! > It looks like your initialization script is attempting to do xhost to > add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See > <http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old > school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a > public/private key pair based way of doing things. Yes, xauth. Xauth has been around for about twenty years, though; it's just that it's sometimes not used because it's a pain in the butt. There's also a standardized method to use Kerberos 5 to authenticate clients to X servers, believe it or not! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:00:38 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> Subject: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTikz3RxyEhdwjYFmAW-t6wBLkU2=y5XuEWxn0gYx at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 7/28/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > ... heaven help you if you > try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I > regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida... I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and display them at Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it would usually (eventually) work. -ethan ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 23:16:37 +0100 From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> Subject: Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C50AC45.1020405 at dunnington.plus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 28/07/2010 23:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and display them at > Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it > would usually (eventually) work. I didn't have quite that time problem, but I sometimes used to test external connectivity and do offsite troubleshooting from my desk at work by connecting to my SGI machine at home over dialup, or later over ISDN (one channel into home, one channel out from there to my ISP). That's when you realise how much Netscape is doing :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:39:51 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C50B1B7.1010604 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dave McGuire wrote: >> It looks like your initialization script is attempting to do xhost to >> add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See >> <http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old >> school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a >> public/private key pair based way of doing things. > > Yes, xauth. Xauth has been around for about twenty years, though; > it's just that it's sometimes not used because it's a pain in the butt. > There's also a standardized method to use Kerberos 5 to authenticate > clients to X servers, believe it or not! Let's also not forget about "ssh -X". Peace... Sridhar ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:44:18 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C50C0D2.7020007 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 7/28/10 6:00 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... heaven help you if you >> try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I >> regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida... > > I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and display them at > Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it > would usually (eventually) work. <keanu> Whoa. </keanu> -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:10:00 -0700 From: "Erik Klein" <classiccmp at vintage-computer.com> Subject: RE: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <065f01cb2eba$c6aca8b0$5405fa10$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've displayed vintage computers at 3 of the last 4 West Coast Maker Fairs and it has gone very, very well. This year a number of CHM docent trainees "worked" the booth with me and had a blast. We got a fairly large display space (3 tables in a big booth) and we were packed open to close both days. I had folks playing with machines during setup and teardown! You are well within the spirit of the Maker Faire even if you aren't actually "making" things. You are still keeping them alive and happy and the attendees love the nostalgia vintage machines offer. I've gone totally hands-on with each display and made sure to include as many familiar machines as I can since the audience isn't quite as geeky as we are. So, for me anyway, lots of Apples, Atari's and Commodores and fewer Northstars, Eagles and IBM 5100s. That said, I did have people switching in programs on an Altair 8800 this year, alongside the Apple ][e, C-64, IBM PCjr and Atari 800. (Sorry so slow with a reply, but I'm still recovering from my vacation.) ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 7:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OT: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? Hi all -- My club (MARCH) is scheduled to exhibit at the inaugural Maker Faire NYC. I'm starting to have second thoughts because we don't "make" anything, we just make old things work again. Who here has been to a Maker Faire event, and if so, would a vintage computers exhibit be well received by the audience? ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:09:45 -0400 From: Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> Subject: Re: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C50FF09.3070705 at snarc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > I've displayed vintage computers at 3 of the last 4 West Coast Maker Fairs and it has gone very, very well. Thanks Erik. Of all the people who replied, you're the only one who answered the actual question that I asked! :) ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:13:59 -0500 From: Martin Goldberg <wgungfu at gmail.com> Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTimGPnpM3wmG+8AJzQWgFBhjqJFsXtrd-kZJ3Dze at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, the process was first introduced in January of '09, so the year test would have been passed on those done in the first six months. The only thing that's been reported so far is in some cases is a reversal of the whitening process, with some of the treatments starting to yellow again. Merlin (the originator) said: "Retr0bright reverses the yellowing process, it's not a permanent cure. If the surface of the plastic is still open to the air, it will yellow again, as the bromine free radical reaction is reversible. The permanent fix it is to coat it with clear satin acrylic lacquer to seal the surface off from the air. No oxygen, no oxidation; simple, really." It's available in hobby shops (in spray form) and usually used my modelers and the like to protect paint, it's not a heavy varnish or something similar. As far as blooming, that usually occurs in areas where the spreadable version of the mixture was left on for to long or allowed to dry. I have not heard of it happening when submerging in the pure liquid version. In other cases, some people have decided not to use the actual mixture and simply use the peroxide portion as a shortcut which has caused blooming. The process will also caused blooming on dark colored plastic, and as such is only for white/tan colored plastics. I've personally used it on an Apple III, and white Bally Computer case with stellar results, which you can see here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/138244-how-to-remove-yellowing-from-an- old-atari-case/page__view__findpost__p__1912172 That entire thread is also full of further discussion, testimony (and pictures) as well as comments by some who have had blooming as result of one of the reasons mentioned above. Marty On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:09 PM > Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right? > > >>> This appeared on the cbm-hackers list today. Anyone have a thought on it? >> >> The fact that too much will cause damage does NOT mean that half as much >> causes half the damage. ?It is far from linear, and there may be >> thresholds. >> >> >> To quote Paracelsus: >> Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes >> it either a poison or a remedy. >> >> Admittedly, Paracelsus was expert on neither computers nor plastics. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred ? ? cisin at xenosoft.com >> > > Depends on what you are talking about. > > If the concentrations are enough to cause visible damage in 2 hours then I > would think that 1 hours use would cause some damage that might take a while > to show up. You also have to assume that the chemicals are being used up as > the process is going meaning the concentration is slowly dropping while it > is sitting, so damage can be going on the second the plastic is being > dropped in. Plastic soaks up chemicals that stay even when you rinse them > out (I can smell pineapple in a plastic container long after it has been > washed and dried), which is why you never store water in anything that seen > chemicals. So I can see some reactions still going on inside the plastic > (depending on its density) even after you have cleaned it off. > > If you mean X concentration will cause damage then .5X concentration will > cause half that damage, then no. > > Long term damage could be as simple as the plastic decaying from UV ?light > after you leached the UV inhibitor from the surface using retro-bright. > Since everyone mixes up a slightly different batch of > chemicals/concentrations, does different prep work, ?and uses it for varying > lengths of time in different sunlight and heat conditions on all kinds of > plastics (which might have UV inhibitors or none at all depending on the age > and manufacturer) who knows if there will be damage or not either short term > or long term. > > Personally if the item is rare and would be worth more "whiter" for a quick > sell, then clean it up. If you are going to keep that same item as a > permanent part of the collection then you might as well wait a few years and > see how this all pans out. > > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:58:01 -0400 From: The Pitlog <tom.manos at gmail.com> Subject: N8VEM project with my son? To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <10C9B55E-86C1-4081-98DC-4A78F38F5B59 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I'm about to embark on building a single board computer (an N8VEM) as a project with my 15yo son. My son is a typical gamer kid who spends most of his waking moments either in front of a computer playing WOW, or reading SF and fantasy. I'm trying to find something a bit more positive about technology for him to enjoy. The operative word is enjoy. Anyway, he's agreed to give it a shot, and I'm thinking through how to make this a great experience for him. I've got a fair amount of background (BSEE and MSCS), and understand the technology, at least theoretically, from bare silicon to flip flops, to computer block diagrams. I'm reasonably well versed in Z80 assembly language programming and the CP/M operating system, which is what the N8VEM runs. I've got the equipment (electronics soldering station, good DMM, logic probe, bench power supply, etc) and have access to an OScope if I need one. And I actually sort of remember how to use them :) My question for you folks is: At what level, and in what order should I try to teach some theory to my son? Should I do some background before we start soldering sockets and ICs to boards and wiring things up, or just jump right in to building? I've been thinking jump in and fill in the theory as I can as we go along. In the end we should have something that looks like an Altair with more modern HW: solid state drives, and maybe IDE, but still has a front panel and which runs traditional CP/M 2.2. I have lots of old software to run there, languages, editors, games, etc. Have any of you tried something like this with your children? Experiences and wisdom gratefully accepted! Cheers, Tom ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:06:05 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> Subject: Re: RTEM-11 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4C50556D.8060605 at softjar.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: >Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> Agreed! The problem is that I have been unable to locate any >>> >> documentation for which RT-11 EMT requests are handled by >>> >> the RTEM-11 RTS along with the differences between RT-11 >>> >> and the RTEM-11 RTS. >> > >> > *sigh* Still not an RTS... RTEM-11 is a program, not an RTS. There is >> > no RTS concept in RSX. > > I agree. I forget to use the correct terminology. If you can indulge me > now that I have turned 72 years old, that would be appreciated. I'll try. But please try to read, understand, and apply what I write, or else we'll not get anywhere. >>> >> But for RTEM-11, I don't have any documentation at all. >> > >> > The obvious answer is that this is documented in the manual that came >> > with RTEM-11. Now, you just need to find someone who has it... (not me) > > Well, since we both agree that it is extremely unlikely that RTEM-11 will > ever be used, ... > >>> >> I have access to both V7 and V10.1 or RSTS/E. However, I have not >>> >> found the >>> >> program in V10.1 which copies files from RT-11 files structures to >>> >> RSTS/E file >>> >> structures. >> > >> > And this has just about nothing to do with the question on how RSTS/E >> > determines which RTS a program runs under, but anyway... > > Obviously, but it is difficult to test a program when I can't even "RUN" > it. Yes, but don't mix questions. Keep the thread of each question intact, and start a new question when you have something else you wonder about, or use whatever thread already exists that deal with that specific topic. And I use "thread" very loosely here. This mail have several different threads dealing with different topics related to RT-11, RSTS/E, RTEM and various other issues. So, for the question on how RSTS/E figures out which RTS a program should run under should not suddenly be the question on how to copy a file from an RT-11 media into RSTS/E V10. >> > As I've said before, I know about FIT. If DEC replaced FIT with >> > something else in RSTS/E V10, then you just have to search around in >> > the system. Look at the help files. That's usually a good place to >> > start searching. Read the manuals. I think the V10 manuals are online >> > somewhere as well. > > The work around that I use is to MOUNT DL0: which already has > the files (Having been copied by FIT from DY0: to DL0:). Yes. You have a working work-around. Which is good. > If anyone else is reading this, can you suggest anything? I did suggest how you should go about finding the answer yourself. You are of course free to keep asking if someone else already have the answer for you, but noone have responded yet... >> > And is still done to this day in RSTS/E and RSX. And while exactly the >> > same, something similar is done in Unix systems, Windows systems, VMS >> > systems, and any other system I can think of. >> > The reason being that for debugging you don't want a compiler to >> > optimize things, and you want to include symbol tables in the compiled >> > image for debugging purposes, while you do not want that stuff for the >> > finished program, since it takes space and makes the program slower >> > (symbol table and non-optimization). > > Actually, for VMS systems, if my faulty memory is able to remember > correctly, the > compiler builds symbol tables outside of the code and data in a manner which > does not impact at all on the program when debugging is NOT taking place. Well, not entirely true. You will still take up a lot more space on disk for the image. And the symbol table is still around in memory even when not needed. It is true that it does not impact on the speed, nor the actual physical memory used by the program, since pages are only mapped in when needed, but there is (as always) more to it than that. In a way, the same is always true. The symbol table is always outside of the actual image. Be it in a separate section of the binary, or a separate file (RSX places the information in a separate file, which is only created if you ask for it). But for the optimization, that you cannot avoid. When you want to debug a program, you do not want the compiler to optimize the code, because that can, and normally will produce code that is very different from what you wrote. > From what I remember, the FORTRAN compiler set up the symbol tables for > debugging so that there was no impact on the code when debugging was not > active. Your view of "impact" is way to narrow. >> > Modern systems however, usually allows the debugger to be dynamically >> > attached to a running program so you don't have to include that bit >> > already at the link stage. > > Under RT-11, the SD(X).SYS device driver traps the BPT instruction when > it is executed no matter what state the hardware is in. Of course, this > also > STOPS ALL other code from executing as well. This is not considered a > problem under RT-11. No, but it would be a major problem under RSX and RSTS/E, which is why a similar solution cannot exist for them, despite what you think you read in the sources of the SD(X).SYS driver for RT-11. > Under TSX-Plus, the debugger STOPS only the code for that job on that > terminal from running. There is also a separate debugger for the TSX-Plus > operating system which does stop everything in the system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't TSX more or less provide like a virtual PDP-11 for each user, so that it appears as if they have all of a machine for them self, so in essence, it would work just as fine as on a real RT-11 system? >>> >> However, by V05.04 of RT-11, DEC developed the SD(X).SYS device >>> >> driver which allowed a program to have a BPT instruction without the >>> >> requirement to include ODT as part of the code. If the user LOADed >>> >> SDX.SYS prior to executing the program with the BPT, but without >>> >> ODT included, the code in SDX.SYS initialized the required VECTOR >>> >> to trap the BPT instruction when SDX.SYS was LOADed. The code >>> >> in SDX.SYS then performed all of the functions that ODT supported >>> >> (and a few others as well) without adding any extra code to the program >>> >> being tested. It is even possible to place a BPT in the monitor code >>> >> and test those instructions as well. >> > >> > Ok. So, no symbol table stuff, and no possibility to add breakpoints, >> > watchpoints and other stuff in the program until you hit atleast one >> > BPT in the code which cause the code in SDX to be called? > > Actually, no! A symbol table is allowed, but I normally never use one > since the listing of the program has always been sufficient. Also, if the > code is already loaded into a known location in memory (e.g. the RT-11 > Resident Monitor), it is possible to place a BPT in the desired instruction. How does the device driver know what symbol table to load? Or is it just that you can load a symbol table when you are in the debugger, if you want to? And hopefully you will load the right symbol table at that point, if you are interested? >> > RT11 is a single user system, where the OS do so much less for you >> > that this concept is even possible. For more complex systems, you >> > cannot do things this way. > > AGREED!! Good. So then we can perhaps lay the idea of this SD(X).SYS driver in any form being available, or even possible, under RSTS/E or RSX to rest. :-) Johnny End of cctalk Digest, Vol 83, Issue 48 **************************************

16 years

2
1
0 0

IBM RS6000 ( Power Server 520) parts

by dm561＠torfree.net

A while back I offered a '92 vintage RS6000 (Power Server 520, Type 7013, Model 26-10855); as expected there was no interest considering the weight, so it was scrapped (as well as the x-series 205 eServers also mentioned). However, I did keep some cards and a few parts in case someone needs one some day, including the following RS6000 cards: 4 - Memory cards (53F3091, 8 x 68X6271 modules on each card); AFAIK these are 4M x 40 bits. 2 - 16 port RS-232 cards (59F3824) and one matching 16 port distribution panel and cable. 1 - SCSI I/F card (31G9729). mike (in Toronto)

16 years

1
0
0 0

Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 7/29/10 5:46 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Usually this stuff is configurable with scripts. Last time I ran X11 >> regularly in the early 90s I had scripts that changed the background >> of the login screen. DEC has probably customized their standard login >> screen in a similar fashion. > > Someone else has made a similar suggestion. I will have a hunt round, but > again, because this is an old version of VMS it may not have this. The program you're looking for there is "xsetroot". It's a very old program and a standard part of the X Consortium's distribution, so it was likely included in your DECwindows distribution. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

16 years

1
0
0 0

Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by legalize＠xmission.com

In article <00ba01cb2f67$90c5f320$b251d960$@jarratt at ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> writes: > > xdpyinfo is a standard X11 client. I would be very surprised if it > > wasn't on VMS, assuming you have the X11 client programs built for VMS > > and installed. > > This is a pretty old version of VMS and I can't find that utility. An old version of VMS most likely won't install these utilities by default. I believe there are optional packages you can apply to VMS on top of the base installation. Chances are you'll find an optional package of X11 client programs. Do you have xterm? If you don't have xterm, then it sounds like its the optional package thing. (Pretty much *everyone* needs xterm.) If you do have xterm, then it sounds like they opted not to install xdpyinfo for VMS, or its still an optional package of "less used utilities for X11" that you have to find. Or you could just compile it :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

16 years

2
1
0 0

PC Tech Journals to go

by dave＠mitton.com

I offered these twice before, but arrangements fell through. I have the following collection of magazines to give for the cost of shipping. USPS Media Mail works best (source zip code 01845) or pickup in Lawrence MA area. PC Tech Journal 1984 - 1988 1984 V1 n: 8/May,9/Jun 1984 V2 n: 1/Jul,6/Dec 1985 V3 n: 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 1986 V4 n: 1-13 1987 V5 n: 1-13 1988 V6 n: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,11,12 1989 V7 n: 1,2,3,4 Extras: PC Products: Jan 84, Jan 85, Feb 85, Jul 85 The volumes fill a typical printing paper carton. ---- Dave.

16 years

1
0
0 0

Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by legalize＠xmission.com

In article <009501cb2e92$d5fad6c0$81f08440$@jarratt at ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> writes: > Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X. I don't have xdpyinfo > as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am running VMS 5.4). Exceed > offers the following settings for the server visual: xdpyinfo is a standard X11 client. I would be very surprised if it wasn't on VMS, assuming you have the X11 client programs built for VMS and installed. > Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I found a definition of > decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour > logo. However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern > for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here: > http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when > you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem > to be any errors related to that though. Usually this stuff is configurable with scripts. Last time I ran X11 regularly in the early 90s I had scripts that changed the background of the login screen. DEC has probably customized their standard login screen in a similar fashion. > There is also an error in the log above reading a font, is the font supposed > to be on the X server or downloaded from the client? The font database is maintained by the server. In X11, fonts are never on the client. > > After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in > the log too: > > 3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor > 3 < C:\Program > Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > Connection read error at 144525 > > Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are. It looks like your initialization script is attempting to do xhost to add hosts to the list of hosts to be trusted by this X server. See <http://www.netadmintools.com/html/xhost.man.html> This is the "old school" way of doing security with X11; I think they now have a public/private key pair based way of doing things. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

16 years

4
3
0 0

wanted, item or pattern/wiring info for sunn 100u disk/tape bulkhead

by curtis＠hawkmountain.net

Anyone have an extra (yeah right) sun 100U disk/tape bulkhead/connectors/wiring ? (see http://picasaweb.google.com/ducktime2010/MartyComputerStuff#548191063618978…) If not, anyone have a means of making me an accurate patern/scan/etc of the plate(s) and detailing out the ribbon wiring ? (as if I can't find one, maybe I can make one). Thanks, -- Curt

16 years, 1 month

1
0
0 0

IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces)

by bqt＠softjar.se

Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On 7/27/10, Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: >> > Tony Duell wrote: >>> >> All decent buses allow you to share interrupts -- the ''design' of the >>> >> interrupt suystem on the ISA bus is one reason to hate that bus.. >>> >> >>> >> Very well designed buses (Unibus :-)) have each card send an interrupt >>> >> vector which directs the CPU to the right ISR. >> > >> > ... I'm just curious as to how each card knows what interrupt >> > vector value to send? Jumpers/switches on each card? > > Can be done that way... > >> > A "Unibus Interrupt Vector Value Guru" somewhere who assigns the values? > > In a sense, yes.... > > All the way back to 1970, DEC published lists in various system > handbooks about their own breakdown of assigned CSRs (Control Status > Register - typically the first I/O address that the card responds do, > though there's no way to magically know how many addresses a card will > answer at) an interrupt vectors for disk controllers, comms > controllers, etc. For older devices, DEC would reserve up to four > locations for a given interface, allowing for primary through > quaternary cards to be installed on the same bus. Later, there was > typically a primary address given, then a scheme to calculate a > non-conflicting "floating" address, but by then folks were rarely > installing four of anything except perhaps serial interfaces or MSCP > disk interfaces. You drift from the question, Ethan... :-) To answer the original question, it was done in one of two ways. Either you set a bunch of DIP-switches to the value that should be sent as the interrupt vector, or else you programmed the card with the interrupt vector it should send. Older cards usually use DIP-switches, while modern cards usually are programmed. Remember that you don't need the interrupt vector to talk with the card in polled mode, so you can talk with the card, and set up stuff before you allow it to start generating interrupts... What you drift into, Ethan, is then the question of deciding what interrupt vector to actually set on the card. This is also an interesting topic. Very few devices have more than one reserved vector. That is, if we talk of one vector as assigned to one card. Some cards had more than one vector because of the nature of the card, such as a terminal interface which actually use two vectors. One vector for receiving characters, and one vector for transmitting characters. I can only remember one device where more than one set of vectors were reserved, and I think it ran to eight for that one. I'd have to look in a processor book to check the actual name of that device, though. For all other devices, vectors are allocated from the "floating" vector space, which is everything from 300(8) to 774(8). Each vector takes two words, the the lowest two bits of a vector is always 0, and are usually not even available on the switch pack, or register where you program the vector. For a device like a terminal interface, the next bit was also reserved, since it was used to differentiate between transmit and receive, so two vectors were programmed with one switch pack. There was/is a definitive schema for in which order vectors should be assigned, but it is more or less not used since all the OSes that atleast I have tried actually probe what vector each card uses, and use that vector instead of having some fixed scheme. All that is required is that no two devices use the same vector, because that would be bad. > I can give an example of how this worked in practice by describing a > 3rd-party device I used to make and maintain, the COMBOARD. It wasn't > on DEC's list, so we picked an arbitrary CSR up in "unassigned" space. > We gave our customers a list of eight preferred CSR addresses to use, > though any address in the I/O page would work. The user set the CSR > address on a 10-position DIP switch, then, once the machine was > powered on and running, would load the driver and tell it, via setup > files, what CSR the card(s) will respond at. Our product had a 16-bit > double-one-way register we called "the window". If the PDP-11/VAX > wrote a value, the 68000 on the card could read it, and if the 68000 > wrote a value, the PDP-11/VAX could read it (a processor could never > read back the value that it just wrote). One of the values passed > during initialization was the vector to use (as stated in a config > file that was written by the user, or by us as a factory default). > The board would retain that value and drop it on the bus during an > interrupt request. > > So for our product, the CSR was set by switches that were not meant to > be changed, but the interrupt vector could be changed at every reboot. > Real DEC devices did a number of different things, the older ones > typically relying on jumpers or switches, the newer devices relying on > some mechanism to assign or calculate the values dynamically. Well, there are really only two ways. Either dip switches, or programmed. :-) > In practice, there weren't as many kinds of interfaces for the Unibus > as there ended up being for the ISA bus, so it may sound like anarchy, > but it wasn't. I think in 20-ish years of the hey-day of the Unibus, > they only ever reassigned CSR addresses once or twice, but it was > extremely unlikely that you'd have a particular obscure peripheral > from 1970, literally, on the same bus as a stack of c. 1990 disk > controllers and Ethernet interfaces. Electrically, they would work > together, but logically, a user would have no need to use 20-year-old > devices. The only "old" device we ever used on our VAX-11/750 was an > LP11, an original line-printer interface. The rest of the cards in > our machine were manufactured 10-15 years later. Some of our devices, > then, had a DIP switch for CSR assignment, but not for vector > assignment. Something older, like a PDP-11/34, was probably a > different story. No, it's just the same for any PDP-11, just as for VAXen with Unibuses. You *must* use dip-switches for CSRs, or possibly accept that it is at a fixed address, which is a very bad idea. Vectors are either set with DIP switches, or programmed into the card at initialization time. But vectors are the simple part of the Unibus. The fact that it's easy to autodetect the vector makes it even simpler. All you need to make sure is that you don't have a conflict, and your vector issues are done. The interesting part of the Unibus is actually the CSRs. As the I/O address page is only 8K, and some devices use quite a few registers in that area, this is a short resource, so you cannot in general make a permanent allocation in the I/O page for all possible combination of devices you might have. So DEC designed a scheme for automatically detecting and configuring devices on the Unibus. (Plug and play long before the PC saw the light of day.) This do, however, require you to change the CSR address of devices way more often than you might think. The general idea runs like this. For most of the common devices, *one* CSR address is reserved. So, for the first device, you know which address to set it to. Any additional devices of that type goes into the floating address space. Each device additionally have a priority, size and modulo number. This is all on paper. For autoconfiguration to work, you then start with the highest priority device, and starts assigning CSRs to the devices you actually have of that type. When you are done, you go on to the next device, and repeat the exercise. Repeat until you've run through the whole list of device types, and by then you will have the CSR address of all the devices you have in your machine. Now, if you add one additional device of some type, it will probably affect the CSR address of all devices you have which have a lower priority, moving them in the floating address space. The same is true if you remove some device from the machine, which were located in the floating address space. More specifically the algorithm goes like this. (In pseudo-code, all numbers octal) CSR=160010 DEV_PRIO=1 while (! end_of_devices_you_have) CSR = round_up(CSR, device_modulo(DEV_PRIO)) for (number_of_devices(DEV_PRIO)) do this_device_csr = CSR CSR = round_up(CSR+device_size(DEV_PRIO), device_modulo(DEV_PRIO)) next CSR += 2 next Worth pointing out: Floating address space starts at 160010, and goes up. Preallocated CSR addresses are usually very high up in this space, and were allocated downwards. They "end" up somewhere around 174xxx space or so. I'm sure someone could locate the lowest pre-allocated CSR address that DEC assigned by looking in some processor book. Between each device type, one CSR address is reserved. This means that when you scan for devices, you'll run through one type at a time, and stop when you hit an address where there is nothing responding. You then go on to the next type. It's important to understand that the space after this non-existant address do not need to be the same size as that of the actual devices for that prio. That would be wasteful of address space. Once you hit the non-existant address, you start scanning for the next device type, using the modulo of that device type instead. So if you have one device type which uses 20 registers, and you don't have any of that type, you'll only waste one register, plus the modulo of the next device type. Once all the CSRs have been figured out, the DEC official scheme for vector allocation was basically to just allocate all vectors, starting at 300, for all the devices you have, packed together as closely as possible. No need for unused spaces, or anything else here. But this is all about the scheme for actually deciding what to use. The actual method of getting the card to know this info was switchpacks, or for vectors, programming a register. Johnny

16 years, 1 month

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Before the iPad, there was the Newton • The Register

by woyciesjes＠sbcglobal.net

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/26/newton_messagepad_120/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss

16 years, 1 month

5
10
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old transistor datasheets

by dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu

Does anyone here have PDF datasheets for Motorola mpsu05 and mpsu55 transistors? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

16 years, 1 month

2
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OT? Scrapping electrionics (was Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston)

by kelly＠catcorner.org

>>> In North West New Jersey scrap high density circuit boards are $0.70 >>> per pound. Steel is about $200 per ton. >> >> After processing fees, I got $3.40/lb for my last load of junk (which >> was based on the actual content). Whoever is paying $0.70 is making a >> boatload of money. >> >> Pat >> > >I got about $1.50 a lb for circuit boards a few weeks back (stuff that was >under 5 years old). The older boards (80's or earlier) should be worth much >more. I hate the thought of scrapping, but my basement was full of old systems that I couldn't give away. So I've been trying to find an inexpensive means of doing so. Either New Jersey is special or I'm asking the wrong people. Most places CHARGE to take populated circut boards here. These are PII and PIII motherboards without CPU. Some even require special universal waste forms, fees and tracking be used. The highest quote I've gotten is paying $0.70 per pound (down 0.05). The lowest that has quoted so far charges $5.00 per pound for motherboards and $10 per monitor. I'd love to find someone paying $1.50 per pound. I've tried all my google-fu and can't find anyone. Here is the site with the highest rate so far: www.rockawayrecycling.com Kelly

16 years, 1 month

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wild and wooly Canon Cat prototype on eBay

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/Collectible-Swyft-prototype-Canon-Cat-Works-clean-/1705… item #170516611792 for those that hate me for posting eBay auctions...stop hating, stop guzzling the haterade. Bye bye.

16 years, 1 month

5
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X from a distance (was Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/28/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > ... heaven help you if you > try to run an X client from a few hundred network-milliseconds away. I > regularly run X clients in Wisconsin and display them in Florida... I used to occasionally run X clients in Wisconsin and display them at Pole via ~1mbps sat link (1200-1600ms RTT). It was painful but it would usually (eventually) work. -ethan

16 years, 1 month

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Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 7/28/10 4:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Well I definitely know very little when it comes to X. I don't have xdpyinfo > as far as I know (it seems to be a Unix thing, I am running VMS 5.4). Ahh, for some reason I assumed you were running Ultrix. The xdpyinfo program is a fairly standard part of the X distributions, though, and it's likely there somewhere. > Exceed offers the following settings for the server visual: > > Auto Select > GrayScale > PseudoColor > StaticColor > StaticGray > StaticGray (Depth 1) > TrueColor Ok, that's a good selection that should support pretty much any client. > I got Exceed to create a trace file, this is what it showed after I started > the login program: ... > Cannot find color 'decwblue' Ah-HA! > Clearly that last entry is of some significance! I found a definition of > decwblue and added it to the Exceed rgb.txt file. With that I got a colour > logo. Excellent! Good sleuthing! > However I still get a horrible fine-grained black and white pattern > for the background, rather than a smooth colour as shown here: > http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif. It is the background you get when > you start the X server and before a client has connected. There don't seem > to be any errors related to that though. Yes, that's the default X backround pattern. The default background for xdm should be settable in its resources via its app-defaults file. But...does DECwindows use something other than ordinary xdm by default? Do SHOW PROCESS and find out; I don't recall. > There is also an error in the log above reading a font, is the font supposed > to be on the X server or downloaded from the client? Standard X fonts reside on the server. I say "standard X fonts" because there's a trend in current X development to do font handling on the client side. That won't be happening here, though. > After I got the colour logo, I then logged in and got some other errors in > the log too: > > 3 > OpenFont: decw$cursor > 3 < C:\Program > Files\Hummingbird\Connectivity\11.00\Exceed\Font\misc\deccurs.wff > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > > Warning: Access refused on ChangeHosts request based on security setting in > Xconfig. > Connection read error at 144525 > > Not sure what ChangeHosts means and what the implications are. I'm not sure what that is either; I've never seen a message like that. I'm betting it's Exceed-specific. > Anyway I have some colour now and it looks more like I would like it. Excellent! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

16 years, 1 month

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Osborne HD distro floppy?

by cclist＠sydex.com

I've been asked by a collector not on this list if anyone has a copy of the floppy " "Drive C for the Osborne Computer" kicking around. Let me know and I'll pass it on. Thanks, Chuck

16 years, 1 month

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M68000 ASM to machine code table

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

Hi, I am attempting to create an assembler to machine code table, something along the lines of: move.l a3,$12345678 -> $23 $CB $12 $34 $56 $78 Has anyone already done this? I don't mind whether the machine code is referenced in hexadecimal, octal or binary. I just need this to help me out with something - I have tried some disassemblers, but since they often (always?) turn data/text into ASM instructions and create false jumps etc. I am attempting to do it by hand. But before I can do that, I of course need the machine code references to start with! Failing that I will just have to create it myself - I have started, but having realised the number of possibilities for just the move.l instruction I feel that this could be another long project.... Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

16 years, 1 month

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Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 7/27/10 6:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would agree that it sounds odd, but the person telling me knows his stuff > and this has been his experience. I'm sorry for how terrible this will sound, but I don't know how else to say it...Where X is concerned, I know my stuff as well, and it really doesn't sound like your friend does. I mean no disrespect either to you or to him by that statement. I have an X11 window directly to the right of the window I'm typing this message in, it's showing colors, and it's being displayed here from another system on the network. I run like this all day, every day. I'm not running Exceed, but a different (current technology) X server, but the concepts and protocol are the same. > I suspect the SHM thing could be why it works on a real workstation, Nope. SHM (more properly "MIT-SHM") is only used for images. (XImage objects in particular, and sometimes pixmaps) Background colors or drawn objects don't use SHM. It's used where image transfer speed is important, like video and animations. > or perhaps it is some DEC-specific thing? Nope. I've run color X terminals (which is essentially what you're doing with Exceed) from DEC X implementations, and they work fine. This is where it call came from, after all: DEC was a member of MIT's Project Athena, where X originated. I've never seen anything DEC specific there with the exception of DDX (device-dependent) code and their window manager. The former is almost by definition vendor-specific, and the latter is too, but perhaps less so depending on your point of view. Some background: An X client program (which includes your login window, it's an X client too) initiates a connection to the X server and does a few things, including optionally making a call to XGetVisualInfo() to get the list of "visuals" that the server supports. A "visual" is basically a target display type that specifies the color depth of the display, and might be something like "monochrome", "8-bit greyscale", "8-bit pseudocolor", "true color", etc. Most X servers support many different visuals simultaneously. The X client then selects the visual it wants to use. (a note for the pedantic: yes, I've skipped many Xlib calls and details here for brevity) It's possible that Exceed does not have any color visuals that the login window X client supports or wants to select. Note that I typed "OPTIONALLY makes a call to XGetVisualInfo()" above. It's possible for an X client to just use the "default" visual, and that is server-specific, and usually configurable. On most X servers, the default visual (actually visual "class") is set on the command line when the server is started. I have no idea of how to set the default visual for Exceed. We can drill down a bit further if you'll log into the machine via Exceed, and run "xdpyinfo" and look at the output. Pay attention to the visual names and IDs that it reports as being available. Are there any color visuals present? Also, look at the default visual ID for the first "screen" entry. See if that visual ID is that of a color visual. If it isn't, but if there are in fact color visuals present, it's possible that the login window X client was written to only use the default visual, which may not be a color visual under Exceed, but might be a color visual on the workstation. It's also possible that the login window X client is configurable via its app-defaults file. We can check on that if you strike out with the visuals described above. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

16 years, 1 month

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ANN: liblpfk (IBM LPFK driver library), tumble-0.33-philpem1

by philpem＠philpem.me.uk

Hi guys, A few of you might remember the IBM LPFK bulk-order a couple of years back, and the ensuing chaos of figuring out the control protocol (which was eventually resolved when Michael Brutman found some old IBM protocol docs which covered the LPFK). I figure I've been sitting on the code for long enough: it's time to make a proper release! Anyone who wants to have a play with this is welcome to do so: the code is on my website, under "Code :: liblpfk", or if you'd prefer a direct link: http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/liblpfk/ I've also uploaded my fork of Eric Smith's "tumble" utility, a TIFF-to-PDF converter. I found a couple of bugs (which haven't been fixed seven months later) and figured it was a shame not to share the patches. After all, it is open-source :) URL for that is http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/ -- click "Tumble". At some point I'll give this a separate page instead of just linking to the version-control repository, and may well document the control file format (which IIRC isn't documented at the moment). Somewhat offtopic, but I've also released a driver for one of the Brother P-touch label printers. I needed labels for my spare parts boxes and really didn't feel like making them with a Dymo gun when I had a perfectly good stock database (which is next on the 'stuff to release' list) which I could use as a data source for said labels. Work smarter not harder and all that ;) These were written for Linux, but should work decently well on BSD too. Forget running them on Windows unless you want to port the serial-line (liblpfk) and/or usb-lp (libptouch) stuff across... I didn't (this be a Linux-only ship, yarrr!) Comments, criticism and so on should be sent to the address below. Sensible patches are, as always, gratefully received 8^) FYI: I'm working on getting a copyright release from university for the DiscFerret software. At the moment half the Department of Computer Science is on holiday so this is proving somewhat difficult... PCB design is still ongoing, though a lack of funds means it might be a while before I get prototype PCBs made. I'm hoping to release the firmware, microcode and decoder engine under the GPL or LGPL, and the hardware access library will most likely be distributed under a "BSD-with-attribution" type license (I forget, is that 3-clause or 4-clause?). Either way, it'll be GPL-compatible (for obvious reasons!) and commercial-use-allowed. Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

16 years, 1 month

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RTEM-11

by bqt＠softjar.se

"Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: >Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> Agreed! The problem is that I have been unable to locate any >>> >> documentation for which RT-11 EMT requests are handled by >>> >> the RTEM-11 RTS along with the differences between RT-11 >>> >> and the RTEM-11 RTS. >> > >> > *sigh* Still not an RTS... RTEM-11 is a program, not an RTS. There is >> > no RTS concept in RSX. > > I agree. I forget to use the correct terminology. If you can indulge me > now that I have turned 72 years old, that would be appreciated. I'll try. But please try to read, understand, and apply what I write, or else we'll not get anywhere. >>> >> But for RTEM-11, I don't have any documentation at all. >> > >> > The obvious answer is that this is documented in the manual that came >> > with RTEM-11. Now, you just need to find someone who has it... (not me) > > Well, since we both agree that it is extremely unlikely that RTEM-11 will > ever be used, ... > >>> >> I have access to both V7 and V10.1 or RSTS/E. However, I have not >>> >> found the >>> >> program in V10.1 which copies files from RT-11 files structures to >>> >> RSTS/E file >>> >> structures. >> > >> > And this has just about nothing to do with the question on how RSTS/E >> > determines which RTS a program runs under, but anyway... > > Obviously, but it is difficult to test a program when I can't even "RUN" > it. Yes, but don't mix questions. Keep the thread of each question intact, and start a new question when you have something else you wonder about, or use whatever thread already exists that deal with that specific topic. And I use "thread" very loosely here. This mail have several different threads dealing with different topics related to RT-11, RSTS/E, RTEM and various other issues. So, for the question on how RSTS/E figures out which RTS a program should run under should not suddenly be the question on how to copy a file from an RT-11 media into RSTS/E V10. >> > As I've said before, I know about FIT. If DEC replaced FIT with >> > something else in RSTS/E V10, then you just have to search around in >> > the system. Look at the help files. That's usually a good place to >> > start searching. Read the manuals. I think the V10 manuals are online >> > somewhere as well. > > The work around that I use is to MOUNT DL0: which already has > the files (Having been copied by FIT from DY0: to DL0:). Yes. You have a working work-around. Which is good. > If anyone else is reading this, can you suggest anything? I did suggest how you should go about finding the answer yourself. You are of course free to keep asking if someone else already have the answer for you, but noone have responded yet... >> > And is still done to this day in RSTS/E and RSX. And while exactly the >> > same, something similar is done in Unix systems, Windows systems, VMS >> > systems, and any other system I can think of. >> > The reason being that for debugging you don't want a compiler to >> > optimize things, and you want to include symbol tables in the compiled >> > image for debugging purposes, while you do not want that stuff for the >> > finished program, since it takes space and makes the program slower >> > (symbol table and non-optimization). > > Actually, for VMS systems, if my faulty memory is able to remember > correctly, the > compiler builds symbol tables outside of the code and data in a manner which > does not impact at all on the program when debugging is NOT taking place. Well, not entirely true. You will still take up a lot more space on disk for the image. And the symbol table is still around in memory even when not needed. It is true that it does not impact on the speed, nor the actual physical memory used by the program, since pages are only mapped in when needed, but there is (as always) more to it than that. In a way, the same is always true. The symbol table is always outside of the actual image. Be it in a separate section of the binary, or a separate file (RSX places the information in a separate file, which is only created if you ask for it). But for the optimization, that you cannot avoid. When you want to debug a program, you do not want the compiler to optimize the code, because that can, and normally will produce code that is very different from what you wrote. > From what I remember, the FORTRAN compiler set up the symbol tables for > debugging so that there was no impact on the code when debugging was not > active. Your view of "impact" is way to narrow. >> > Modern systems however, usually allows the debugger to be dynamically >> > attached to a running program so you don't have to include that bit >> > already at the link stage. > > Under RT-11, the SD(X).SYS device driver traps the BPT instruction when > it is executed no matter what state the hardware is in. Of course, this > also > STOPS ALL other code from executing as well. This is not considered a > problem under RT-11. No, but it would be a major problem under RSX and RSTS/E, which is why a similar solution cannot exist for them, despite what you think you read in the sources of the SD(X).SYS driver for RT-11. > Under TSX-Plus, the debugger STOPS only the code for that job on that > terminal from running. There is also a separate debugger for the TSX-Plus > operating system which does stop everything in the system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't TSX more or less provide like a virtual PDP-11 for each user, so that it appears as if they have all of a machine for them self, so in essence, it would work just as fine as on a real RT-11 system? >>> >> However, by V05.04 of RT-11, DEC developed the SD(X).SYS device >>> >> driver which allowed a program to have a BPT instruction without the >>> >> requirement to include ODT as part of the code. If the user LOADed >>> >> SDX.SYS prior to executing the program with the BPT, but without >>> >> ODT included, the code in SDX.SYS initialized the required VECTOR >>> >> to trap the BPT instruction when SDX.SYS was LOADed. The code >>> >> in SDX.SYS then performed all of the functions that ODT supported >>> >> (and a few others as well) without adding any extra code to the program >>> >> being tested. It is even possible to place a BPT in the monitor code >>> >> and test those instructions as well. >> > >> > Ok. So, no symbol table stuff, and no possibility to add breakpoints, >> > watchpoints and other stuff in the program until you hit atleast one >> > BPT in the code which cause the code in SDX to be called? > > Actually, no! A symbol table is allowed, but I normally never use one > since the listing of the program has always been sufficient. Also, if the > code is already loaded into a known location in memory (e.g. the RT-11 > Resident Monitor), it is possible to place a BPT in the desired instruction. How does the device driver know what symbol table to load? Or is it just that you can load a symbol table when you are in the debugger, if you want to? And hopefully you will load the right symbol table at that point, if you are interested? >> > RT11 is a single user system, where the OS do so much less for you >> > that this concept is even possible. For more complex systems, you >> > cannot do things this way. > > AGREED!! Good. So then we can perhaps lay the idea of this SD(X).SYS driver in any form being available, or even possible, under RSTS/E or RSX to rest. :-) Johnny

16 years, 1 month

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Original Commodore64 boxes

by jplist2008＠kiwigeek.com

Hey; I was going to bin these, but I thought I'd ask just in case anyone placed any value on them (I can't imagine it, but you never know). I have three or four Commodore64 boxes, including packing foam (I think), three breadbox style, one C64c. I do -not- have the Commodores that match the serial numbers on the box, so they're of no interest to me. Free for pickup or shipping. I'll wait until the weekend and then ceremonially burn them while reading excerpts from my Technical Reference Manual and sprinkling the ground with Jolt Cola. - JP Hampton, Iowa (50441)

16 years, 1 month

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Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by legalize＠xmission.com

In article <004d01cb2e20$b68016b0$23804410$@jarratt at ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> writes: > What I neglected to say was that I *do* get colour, but only after logging > in. Sorry I forgot to mention that, I realise it is probably quite an > important detail. It is only the login screen that is monochrome. Are you using xdm? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_display_manager_(program_type)> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

16 years, 1 month

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IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 7/27/10, Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> All decent buses allow you to share interrupts -- the ''design' of the >> interrupt suystem on the ISA bus is one reason to hate that bus.. >> >> Very well designed buses (Unibus :-)) have each card send an interrupt >> vector which directs the CPU to the right ISR. > > ... I'm just curious as to how each card knows what interrupt > vector value to send? Jumpers/switches on each card? Can be done that way... > A "Unibus Interrupt Vector Value Guru" somewhere who assigns the values? In a sense, yes.... All the way back to 1970, DEC published lists in various system handbooks about their own breakdown of assigned CSRs (Control Status Register - typically the first I/O address that the card responds do, though there's no way to magically know how many addresses a card will answer at) an interrupt vectors for disk controllers, comms controllers, etc. For older devices, DEC would reserve up to four locations for a given interface, allowing for primary through quaternary cards to be installed on the same bus. Later, there was typically a primary address given, then a scheme to calculate a non-conflicting "floating" address, but by then folks were rarely installing four of anything except perhaps serial interfaces or MSCP disk interfaces. I can give an example of how this worked in practice by describing a 3rd-party device I used to make and maintain, the COMBOARD. It wasn't on DEC's list, so we picked an arbitrary CSR up in "unassigned" space. We gave our customers a list of eight preferred CSR addresses to use, though any address in the I/O page would work. The user set the CSR address on a 10-position DIP switch, then, once the machine was powered on and running, would load the driver and tell it, via setup files, what CSR the card(s) will respond at. Our product had a 16-bit double-one-way register we called "the window". If the PDP-11/VAX wrote a value, the 68000 on the card could read it, and if the 68000 wrote a value, the PDP-11/VAX could read it (a processor could never read back the value that it just wrote). One of the values passed during initialization was the vector to use (as stated in a config file that was written by the user, or by us as a factory default). The board would retain that value and drop it on the bus during an interrupt request. So for our product, the CSR was set by switches that were not meant to be changed, but the interrupt vector could be changed at every reboot. Real DEC devices did a number of different things, the older ones typically relying on jumpers or switches, the newer devices relying on some mechanism to assign or calculate the values dynamically. In practice, there weren't as many kinds of interfaces for the Unibus as there ended up being for the ISA bus, so it may sound like anarchy, but it wasn't. I think in 20-ish years of the hey-day of the Unibus, they only ever reassigned CSR addresses once or twice, but it was extremely unlikely that you'd have a particular obscure peripheral >from 1970, literally, on the same bus as a stack of c. 1990 disk controllers and Ethernet interfaces. Electrically, they would work together, but logically, a user would have no need to use 20-year-old devices. The only "old" device we ever used on our VAX-11/750 was an LP11, an original line-printer interface. The rest of the cards in our machine were manufactured 10-15 years later. Some of our devices, then, had a DIP switch for CSR assignment, but not for vector assignment. Something older, like a PDP-11/34, was probably a different story. -ethan

16 years, 1 month

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Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by mdavidson1963＠gmail.com

That is indeed odd. I have a DEC PWS running OpenVM S8.3 with DecWindows and Motif... I've been meaning to get it finished and wired into the home network. As it just so happens, I just won a sealed copy of Exceed on EBay, which I could try out... This won't happen immediately (large to-do list, plus I need to run to Fry's for a network switch and some cable), but I'll give it a shot... I've already warned my very-tolerant girlfriend that there's going to be an ethernet cable running from the office down the hall to the wireless router at the TV (I have U-Verse, so it has to be that way). Mark On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > I would agree that it sounds odd, but the person telling me knows his stuff > and this has been his experience. I suspect the SHM thing could be why it > works on a real workstation, or perhaps it is some DEC-specific thing? I > have a real workstation to try this on, I will have to dig it out and give > it a go myself. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> Sent: 27 July 2010 22:34 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login >> >> On 7/27/10 5:27 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> > I am using Exceed to run an X server on my PC. I would like it to >> show a >> > colour logo like in this screenshot: : >> > http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif but all I get is monochrome on >> the >> > login screen. A friend has suggested that you only get colour on real >> > workstations. Does anyone know how to get the colour login on Exceed? >> >> ? I don't know anything about Exceed so I can't answer your specific >> question, but your friend doesn't know jack squat about X. ;) ?X >> doesn't >> "know" whether it's on a "real workstation" (whatever that is!) or not. >> ?I've run dozens upon dozens of color X terminals. >> >> ? X clients (programs that interact with the user) connect to X servers >> (that control keyboards/mice/video hardware) over TCP connections, >> DECnet connections, or local sockets. ?The stuff on each end is fully >> abstracted and has no idea of how the actual protocol data is getting >> from place to place. ?The only time this changes that I'm aware of is >> when the SHM (SHared Memory) extension is present and in use. ?With >> SHM, >> clients can pass "big" data (images and such) to the X server in a much >> faster way. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL > >

16 years, 1 month

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Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 7/27/10 5:27 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am using Exceed to run an X server on my PC. I would like it to show a > colour logo like in this screenshot: : > http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif but all I get is monochrome on the > login screen. A friend has suggested that you only get colour on real > workstations. Does anyone know how to get the colour login on Exceed? I don't know anything about Exceed so I can't answer your specific question, but your friend doesn't know jack squat about X. ;) X doesn't "know" whether it's on a "real workstation" (whatever that is!) or not. I've run dozens upon dozens of color X terminals. X clients (programs that interact with the user) connect to X servers (that control keyboards/mice/video hardware) over TCP connections, DECnet connections, or local sockets. The stuff on each end is fully abstracted and has no idea of how the actual protocol data is getting >from place to place. The only time this changes that I'm aware of is when the SHM (SHared Memory) extension is present and in use. With SHM, clients can pass "big" data (images and such) to the X server in a much faster way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

16 years, 1 month

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Colour Digital Logo on DECwindows Login

by robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com

I am using Exceed to run an X server on my PC. I would like it to show a colour logo like in this screenshot: : http://toastytech.com/guis/DWlogin.gif but all I get is monochrome on the login screen. A friend has suggested that you only get colour on real workstations. Does anyone know how to get the colour login on Exceed? Incidentally, I am also trying to use Xming as my X server (the last version in the public domain), but I am having pretty limited success in getting that to work with DECwindows. Does anyone have this working with DECwindows at all? Regards Rob

16 years, 1 month

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Fwd: [rescue] Sun Systems Free for pickup in 27518

by silent700＠gmail.com

Not my stuff; forwarded from [rescue.] Too much good stuff to get trashed, tho: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tom "spot" Callaway <tcallawa at redhat.com> Date: Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 2:04 PM Subject: [rescue] Sun Systems Free for pickup in 27518 To: The Rescue List <rescue at sunhelp.org> A friend of mine, knowing my interest in SPARCs, mentioned that his company was about to throw away all of their SPARC systems, and asked if I wanted them. Sadly, he's in North Carolina, and I can't justify paying shipping on any of these, but I'd prefer to see them find good homes than end up in a dumpster. Here's what he's got: 1 Sparcstation 5 1 Sparcstation 20 1 Sun Ultra 5 1 Sunblade 100 2 Sun Ultra 30 ("creator") 1 Sun Ultra 60 ("creator3D") 4 Sun Ultra 10 (3 are "creator3D", 1 is "elite3D") 1 Sun Ultra 1 ("creator") 1 Sun Enterprise 220R 1 Sun Ultra Enterprise 150 These systems will likely end up in the trash in the next 24 hours unless they're claimed. If you're interested, email Tanner <clubjuggler at gmail.com>. They're in Cary, NC (27518). He will not ship them, you have to pick them up. First come, first serve.

16 years, 1 month

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