test-drb

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

101090 discussions

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

Fred writes: > In terms of being noticably more primitive, let me offer a hypothesis of > an honest way that Dan could be mistaken: It is not at all uncommon for > universities to proudly use software, including compilers, that were > written by students there. Such student written materials may be quite a > bit cruder, and lacking many refinements. Did your first attempt at > writing a C compiler include floating point? It may not always be > feasable to differentiate between earlier software V modern early efforts > by talented programming students. After all, that seems to be how we > ended up with the UCSD Pascal and P-System, in which certain > characteristics are noticably more primitive than much of the commercial > software of the time, while certain other characteristics may be novel and > innovative. Many languages of the 60's and 70's were horribly over-specified and the "full language" in fact had a lot of features that were not desirable. Some of these were developed at schools as local products that were never released, and others did become products with a life outside the school. Others were developed by minicomputer companies because the "full mainframe language" was not practicable on the mini. e.g. WATFIV was like FORTRAN but eliminated the separate complie/link/execute phases and could collapse them. It extended the language in some directions while collapsing it in others. Later on came RATFOR which went in a different direction, adding structured elements onto FORTRAN. e.g. BASIC was supposed to be a simplified version of FORTRAN or ALGOL, but in fact it was simplified even further into things like PILOT. e.g. COBOL is, even today, cantankerous but some concepts from it went into the much streamlined DIBOL. (I hava a sweet spot for DIBOL.) I think a very important concept, is that having more features in a language, especially when those features were specified by a committee, results in an overly complicated overly large cantankerous language. Too bad most people still get sold on features :-(. It's like the DVD players with 141 buttons on the remote - people buy it because it has more buttons or functions, to the point where putting more buttons on becomes a marketing function, not a usability function. Tim.

15 years, 11 months

Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN

by cisin＠xenosoft.com

On Fri, 7 May 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I can't say I have ever heard of Valtrep before and my attempts at searching > the web do not reveal any definitive information. The only immediate hits that came up on GOOGLE were somebody named Dan, in one place identified as "Transnet" mentioning that he used Valtrep on Stride-70 in 1986 and that it was the predecessor to FORTRAN. Dan says that he has no idea who that is. > What definitive information do you have on Valtrep to say that it > predates FORTRAN? FORTRAN dates back to the 1950s. 1954 Backus at IBM if I recall correctly. Google doesn't show any mention by Backus "written from scratch" of Valtrep, and, in fact NO mention of Valtrep by anybody not named "Dan". There were some HLLs before FORTRAN, but FORTRAN was the first "successful" one, and Backus did not give credit to Valtrep. > PS I think personal attacks have no place on this list. If someone has > misinterpreted what you say, then explain what you meant, because it is > always possible that you might not have been clear the first time. I can understand that it gets frustrating when people misinterpret ambiguous statements. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

15 years, 11 months

Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN

by dgahling＠hotmail.com

In this case, Fred's just, ok, can't say anything nice, don't say anything, he's gone to my ignore list, it's better this way... as for Valtrep, a lot just personal experience, remember I worked on it, in the 80s and before in the 70s. it's interesting even info on the old "Sentry-70" computer system can't be found online, at least, I can't find any. The Sentry-70 is as it suggests, the last model, and numbered by year. that would be 1970. It predates the Cyber/Prime system, as much as memory recalls anyhow. They had the Sentry-70 at the university I happened to be at, at the time. I started there in 1976, yeah I know, it's still late for the time periods we're talking about. However, the systems and languages had been there for a long time before I started. There are a few things that lend evidence to these statements, none of which are likely verifiable... 1. that is how Valtrep was introduced to me (ok, so it's hearsay) 2. more importantly - the structure of the language - and this is more telling. It's quite easy to identify a more primitive version of a language when compared to a more modern one. Syntax, functions, scope, definitions, everything about it. Do I have any sample code of Valtrep still around? That's a tough question. I'm going to guess "NO", however, it is certainly possible. I will definitely look. There are a few people who were at the same university with me at the same time, I can also consult with them and perhaps get some of their memories, one of them may even have sample code, if only on punch-card or whatever. It might be easier [sic] to find info on the computer "Sentry-70", but all my searches thus far have come up blank on any useful information anyhow. I'm willing to cede the argument that Valtrep was the predecessor to Fortran if anyone can offer any evidence to support that. Perhaps it's an odd claim to make without any backup, but then, I was there, so.... Valtrep was very "Fortran-ish" however it didn't have all the functions or capabilities, it was more rudimentary. Dan. > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:57:32 +0100 > > I can't say I have ever heard of Valtrep before and my attempts at searching > the web do not reveal any definitive information. What definitive > information do you have on Valtrep to say that it predates FORTRAN? FORTRAN > dates back to the 1950s. > > Regards > > Rob > > PS I think personal attacks have no place on this list. If someone has > misinterpreted what you say, then explain what you meant, because it is > always possible that you might not have been clear the first time. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gahlinger > > Sent: 07 May 2010 21:53 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > > > If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks, > > maybe you'd learn something. > > > > I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or > > even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible). > > Don't make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage. > > > > You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was > > well established and into the decline? > > Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!? > > > > oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the > > original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid. > > > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so > > you could understand that. Guess not. > > > > Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's > > probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever), > > but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that. > > > > Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't > > make it newer you know. > > Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been > > developed or wide use in decades... > > > > I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe > > he'll be nicer than I am. > > > > In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such > > technology has survived. > > Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime, > > but we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished... > > > > Dan. > > > > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700 > > > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > > > > > WOW! > > > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa > > FORTRAN? > > > > > > > > > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > > > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active > > use > > > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > > > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were > > never > > > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. > > > > > > > > > > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the > > 80s > > > > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > > > > > > Yes, RATHER. > > > > > > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > > > > > > > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do > > valtrep. > > > > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it > > seems... > > > > > > Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-) > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707= > _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708

15 years, 11 months

Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN)

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

Al wrote: > On 5/7/10 1:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran > Would you please point me to documentation for this language prior to the > Fortran document of November, 1954 > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/ Al - I'm beginning to think that Dan Gahlinger is like Andy Kaufman creating the character Tony Clifton. He creates Valtrep on the Sentry-70, he creates OS/2 for the PDP-11, just to get us to kick. Actually, OS/2 for the PDP-11, that is so Tony Clifton. It is funny in retrospect :-) Eric had a real funny retort on a NetBSD list, something to do with buying the first sneaker for sneakernet :-), I think the Valtrep ruse, I first saw in 2006. Tim.

15 years, 11 months

AlphaServer 1000A not booting

by pcoghlan+cctech＠vms.eurokom.ie

> >> I have an AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 that is not booting. When I power it up, >> nothing shows up on the control panel LCD and there are no beep codes. I >> know that the motherboard is receiving power because the "link active" light >> on the Ethernet adapter comes on. Is there anything that I can do to fix it, >> or should I just try to find another Alpha (I don't seem to have much luck >> with Alphas - I have a DEC 3000/300X with a bad RAM slot). >> > > >There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a console >connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful POST, >first machine to do that was the DS20. > My AlphaServer 1000A 5/333 and 5/400 both beep during or after the POST. > >The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked >fine the previous time I turned it on. > I also have a number of DEC machines that failed after sitting for a few months. I posted about them around the time of the "Leaving computers on..." thread about a month ago but I never saw my mail make it to the list for some reason. > >Does the floppy drive light come on? I'm wondering if the SROM has gone bad >and it needs a Failsafe Load, but I guess before that point you should at >least get the POST displaying on the LCD. Do the PSU fans start up? I'm not >near a 1000A till tomorrow so I won't mention reseating the CPU module until >I know it has a removeable one :) > The CPU module is removable and I have had trouble with one of my machines fixed by reseating it. However, the symptoms were different - there was activity on the display and there were beeps giving error codes. I have also had a problem with a failed Bcache on the CPU module (it seems this can be a weak point on the AS1000A) and I had memory failures. However, neither stopped the POST displaying on the LCD nor the graphics console from working. I would suggest reseating the CPU module and removing any PCI cards present. (I have an Alphaserver 800 which became a complete brick while a combination of PCI cards were present that it didn't like.) If there are any EISA cards present, I would leave them in place because there may be issues with the config utility that has to be run when the EISA bus configuration is modified. Other than that, I suggest trying the system with just the bare essentials present and seeing what happens. It would be useful to know if the fans start. Fan problems on some alphas cause the whole thing to shut down. Also, there is an interlock microswitch to prevent power up when the cover is open. This is probably not the problem here though as the symptoms are as if the front panel power switch is off. Regards, Peter Coghlan.

15 years, 11 months

Drive recovery

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Just my luck! I'm making the final backup copy of my old Mac G3, and one of the drives dies, and my other backup wasn't. I take it apart - it's a 20 gig IBM Deskstar DTLA-305020, just old enough for the (cough) ten-year-rule, and well-known prone to two modes of failure, click of death and NVRAM failure. I'm hearing the NVRAM failure sound as shown at: http://www.dataclinic.co.uk/ibm-deskstar-hard-disk-drive-data-loss.htm In googling, I saw one reference to someone replacing the 8-pin NVRAM themselves from a donor drive, but that seems risky to me. I think I'll send it to Gillware.com, a Madison, WI-based recovery place. They offer $400-700 Windows recovery but charge a premium for Mac recovery ($700-$1000) and Linux ($800-1000), with the higher price for "clean room recovery". (Hmm, I thought bits were bits.) Any other advice - besides a better backup strategy? - John

15 years, 11 months

Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof

by roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk

On 7 May 2010, at 08:25, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 02:15:49 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4BE3B015.7070107 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 5/7/10 2:08 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit >>>> product, so that's an obvious difference. >> >> So, therefore, we all agree that the 8080 is NOT a 32-bit processor! > > Right. But is it 8 or 16? > >>> See, it's not all that cut-and-dried. I think we need to defer to >>> what is "commonly accepted" amongst the learned. Everyone knows the >> >> Who are the "learned"? > > Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how computers work. > >> Are the registers 16 bit registers that can be split into two 8 bit? >> or are they pairs of 8 bit registers that can be used together for 16 bit >> values? >> >> Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? >> (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the >> processor!) >> >> The software of an 8088 looks like 16 bit; the hardware of an 8088 looks >> an awful lot like 8 bit. There are people who consider the 8088 to be an >> 8-bit and consider the 8086 to be 15 bit, in spite of their >> "similarities". > > Yes, agreed 100% all around. > >> What do you consider 80386 to be? > > By what measure? ;) > >> how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; what is >> THAT? > > Well that's an 80386 with a half-width data bus, much like the 8088 > is an 8086 with a half-width data bus. So...by what measure? ;) > >> What the hell is a "Celeron"? or a "Dragonball"? or an "Atom"? > > Well the Celeron being a Pentium, conventional wisdom says "32-bit". > Dragonball is a CPU32-core processor, whose ALU is 32-bits wide. But > the Dragonball (at least the 68EZ328 variant, the last one I designed > with) has a 16-bit data bus! So...which is it? 16 or 32? > > (sorry, I know zero about the Atom, can't comment there but would > welcome some knowledge) When I did my computer science degree (1971-4) it was the largest addressable item of main storage (core back then). By that definition the early IBM PC was 8 bit and so were machines like the Victor. Personally I don't really care as long as you compare like with like. What rankled with me back in the 80s was that machines with 8 bit data busses and 16 bit registers were being described as 16 bit when at the same time the 16 bit data bus machines with 32 bit registers like the Lisa and Mac were also being described as 16 bit. Apple played by the rules when every one else's marketing people lied their heads off.

15 years, 11 months

seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL

by nigel.d.williams＠gmail.com

for a DEC GIGI (VK100) I recently acquired. Many of the keycaps on the GIGI pull off very easily so little surprise it is missing a couple. http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/Bdb1fRKIjtP6Q0CebliU-g?feat=directl… (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts for the PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store).

15 years, 11 months

Viewpoint or Globalview for x86?

by mross666＠hotmail.com

> Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 14:03:19 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Re: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4BDF3A17.1090900 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 5/3/10 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/3/10 1:20 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 box. > >> > > > > There is a simulation of Viewpoint under Windows written by Don Woodward > > called Dawn. > > > http://www.woodward.org/mps/index.html Or, you could pick up the real thing: http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip Or, if you want to try the X version - runs on Solaris 1.x I believe: http://www.corestore.org/GVX_1.05.iso.zip http://www.corestore.org/GVXv1_0.zip A long time since I've played with these; supplied as-is, no warranty, worth what you're paying for them, may cause confusion and visual disturbance. Enjoy. Mike _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28…

15 years, 11 months

Anyone ever heard of a Canon BX-1?

by info＠emanuelegabellini.it

Dear Greg, i'm a little too late about BX-1!!! No, do you still have the computer? How it doing? Let me know please, thanks Emanuele

15 years, 11 months

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