[...]
> I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives.
Aha... That makes a lot more sense, and I hope I can make some useful comments.
>
> For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have
> a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home
> computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was
> anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too.
> But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if
> being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program
> it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most
> of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of
> having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the
> trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user
> community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI
> computer.
>
> In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the
> community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats
> abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will
> waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in
> exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a
> simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing
> tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do.
I hate to say this here, but I would _not_ recomend a classic computer (any
classic computer) as the only system for a non-computer-literate user. IMHO
such a user will quickly become disapointed when they find that the things that
_they_ can do with the machine are somewhat limited, and that nothing from the
local computer store will be of any use to them.
I can have advanced video on one of my older machines because I am prepared to
write drivers, solder up interfaces, read technical manuals, patch existing
programs, etc. OK, I enjoy it. But to suggest that a PERQ 2 driving an I2S
image processor and a homebrew GPIB -SCSI interface would be a good machine
for the average home user to view his photo-CDs on would be nothing short of
insane. Yes, it _could_ be done, but for such a user, a normal, boring,
PC-clone would be much more suitable.
Even I don't use a classic machine (or at least, what _I_ consider classic) all
the time. Earlier this week I needed to write some letters. I could have used
a classic-PERQ and printed the results on a Versatec V80. I could have used the
paper tape editor on my PDP8/e to punch a tape containing the correct postscript
commands and then printed it to my laserprinter using a serial-interfaces paper
tape reader. In fact I used something non-classic - a much hacked PC/AT running
Linux. I used LaTeX to format the text, and then printed it on said (fairly
modern) laserprinter. There are plenty of other things that would have been just
as good, but that's the one I chose.
The people who (IMHO) we should be trying to attract to classic computers -- and
in fact the ones I've had some success in attracting -- are those who are
already computer literate to some extent. People who already can write simple
programs and want to understand exactly how a system operates. I think it's a
lot easier to understand many classic computers (minis and micros) than modern
PCs, and the educational value of such machines should not be overlooked.
There are (IMHO) at least 4 different types of tasks that can be done with
computers :
1) A standard application for which software (commercial, GPL'd, freeware,
shareware, whatever) already exists. In which case you pick whatever machine
the software runs on. If it runs on more than one system, you choose between
them using whatever criteria matter _to you_ (hence me picking a classic
computer for its better documentation over a modern PC since both can carry out
the tasks I want to do)
2) An existing embedded system. Although it's possible (and sometimes common) to
'modernise', say, a control system based on a minicomputer, there are still a
lot of PDP8's and PDP11's running machinery, etc. Provided the old machine works
reliably and support/spares are available, it's fine to keep on using it.
3) A new 'embedded' system. Although my example of the I2C chip tester was, I
agree, slightly contrived, I was simply pointing out that if you are making a
single-purpose machine _for youself (so you can maintain it)_ there's no reason
not to use a classic. There's probably no reason not to use something modern
either.
4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding how
computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use of
classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll attract
more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more about
processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CPU, the
schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture courses on
the subject.
And, I can fully understand the joy that comes from getting a computer to do
something that is widely claimed to be 'impossible'. When the CoCo was current,
it was normally claimed that you couldn't have PMODE 4 graphics and Semigraphics
4 blocks on the screen at once. I did it, and totally amazed the staff in the
local Tandy store. Since it's easy to do most things on a fast PC (you don't
really have to save every last cycle, etc), it's more of a challenge to do them
on an old home micro. Again, we may be able to attract people because of that.
It may be worth looking at how (say) classic car clubs keep their membership.
They may well have similar problems - why would you drive (say) a pre-war car
when you could have a modern one. Rationally it probably makes very little
sense...
> My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying
> that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view
> (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs,
> CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in
> K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user
> community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User
> Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the
> PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus
> computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I
I will have to disagree with you there. The larger machines that I am involved
with have very active user comunities who offer a lot of help and support to
newcomers. To give a couple of examples :
PERQ : When I was trying to add a printer to my PERQ, I had a few questions. The
result was that other owners dismantled their own machines, 'buzzed out' cables,
e-mailed me wirelists, and talked me through the whole thing. That's not an
isolated incident - a person who was having monitor problems got other owners
to pull the covers off their monitors and measure voltages, etc. This is just
about the only machine where this level of support still occurs over 10 years
after the entire line was discontinued.
PDP11. The user community here is split (IMHO) into the professional users who
need to keep the machine running, and who can afford DEC diagnostics,
replacement boards, etc, and the home hackers who debug everything with a logic
probe and printset, rebuild modules and even repair dead fans. I am certainly in
the latter category here. But again, questions get answered. People will dig out
manuals for obscure hardware and look up pinouts and jumper settings. Newcomers
will get answers to introductory questions.
BTW, I'm not flaming the support that other user communities give. I'm sure it's
excellent, but I've never experienced it, since I don't (in the main) use those
machines.
> do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for
> PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like
> DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that
The UK chapter of DECUS is pretty useless for home hackers. I am told that other
chapters are a lot better in this respect.
> * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers *
-tony
In a message dated 97-07-03 05:38:55 EDT, you write:
<< Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part
numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a
little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing
would be very handy.
>>
I have access to all IBM FRU numbers, which will always tell you what you
have; NNLNNNN where n=number and l=letter but that four digit number means
nothing AFAIK.
david
>Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can
>be writing million dollar peecee games.
I know you can get some classic stuff for free, but unfortunatly, as with
every hobby we love, it costs money. and here is an interesting idea- to
beat microsnuff, write as many competeing programs that work BETTER than
billy's ( not hard to do), and sell them. and with that cash, you can get
more machines! <G> and remember, billy also writes MAC software, that for
some reason are worse than you can get for IBM... so we support IBM and MAC,
as well as your favorite classic, the more platforms supported, the better
it is for everyone! :)
Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers"
(versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a
"home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about
putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging
words, too.
I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives.
For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have
a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home
computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was
anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too.
But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if
being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program
it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most
of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of
having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the
trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user
community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI
computer.
In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the
community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats
abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will
waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in
exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a
simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing
tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do.
Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize all
the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was
hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to
attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern
applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and
another could use.
So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this
List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it
even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the
abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill
or recyclers?
My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying
that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view
(and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs,
CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in
K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user
community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User
Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the
PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus
computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I
do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for
PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like
DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that
these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no
means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home
computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from
participating.
--
**********************************************
* David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers *
* dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona *
**************************** TMS9900 Lives! *
*** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote:
CLASSICCMP Digest 101
*:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000
*:From: jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca
*:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
*:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX
*:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789(a)mail.cgocable.net>
*:MIME-Version: 1.0
*:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
*:Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
*:
*:Jeff,
*:
*:> I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't
*:> handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy
*:> drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out
*:> behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post.
*:Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use
*:those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's
*:in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that
*:in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new
*:20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0
*:and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer
*:pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but
*:the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore
*:any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k
*:drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra
*:sensor put in to support the 18 sectors.
*:
*:BIG snap!
*:
*:> Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I
*:> believe. One needs the
*:> PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two
*:> additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about
*:> the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into
*:> one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the
*:> drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power
*:> through the ribbon cable.
*:Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz.
*:If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings
*:that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as
*:720k drives to put in your HX machine.
*:---
*:
*:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
*:From: Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.bothell.washington.edu>
*:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
*:Subject: FAQ Bonanza
*:Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91a.970701212249.14727D-100000(a)booster.bothell.washington.edu>
*:Mime-Version: 1.0
*:Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
*:
*:=============================================================================
*: DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW
*: YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE
*: THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF
*:=============================================================================
*:ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List
*:Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy
*:Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2
*:Last Update: 7/01/97
*:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*:This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available
*:answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is
*:Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor-
*:mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but,
*:in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain-
*:ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible
*:and often failed ;).
*:
*:This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented
*:deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools.
*:
*:If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please
*:contact me at the address above.
*:
*:A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u.
*:washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the
*:directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq.
*:----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*:Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1
*:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*:1. Mailing Lists
*:----------------
*:1.1 Mailing List Basics
*:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot
*: How to set to Digest
*: How to Subscribe
*: How to Unsubscribe
*:
*:2. FTP
*:------
*:2.1 FTP Basics
*:
*:3. World Wide Web
*:-----------------
*:3.1 WWW Basics
*:
*:=============================================================================
*:1.1 Mailing List Basics
*:
*:A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it
*:to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the
*:distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message
*:to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it
*:to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc).
*:If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution
*:list.
*:
*:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot
*:
*:There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To
*:send a command to the list processor, write a message to
*: listproc(a)u.washington.edu
*:(Do NOT send the message to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). In the body of
*:the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following
*:commands, then send the message.
*:
*:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK
*:
*: Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you
*: write to the list. This is the default.
*:
*:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK
*:
*: Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages
*: you write to the list. I don't recommend this.
*:
*:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST
*:
*: Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages
*: rather than each as it is posted. With this option
*: you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep
*: a nice, tidy in-box.
*:
*:SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address
*:
*: Subscribes you to the list.
*:
*:UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address
*:
*: Removes you from the list.
*:
*:[][][][][][][][][][]
*:
*:2.1 FTP Basics
*:
*:FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet.
*:You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The
*:commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general
*:you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a
*:program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file
*:is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually
*:termed PUT.
*:
*:Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the
*:ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27.
*:
*:You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an
*:anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked
*:for a password enter your internet e-mail address.
*:
*:[][][][][][][][][][]
*:
*:3.1 WWW Basics
*:
*:The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells
*:and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to
*:know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is
*:all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest
*:Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it.
*:
*:The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html.
*:---
*:Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:36:55 -0500
*:From: Allen Underdown <wbrco(a)valuenet.net>
*:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
*:Subject: Re: Flex for 6809/6800
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
*:Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A(a)valuenet.net>
*:MIME-Version: 1.0
*:Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
*:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
*:
*:Benedict Chong wrote:
*:> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800?
*:> There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to
*:> let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur.
*:>
*:> Ben
*:
*:Don't worry, I have several copys...
*:--
*:| Allen Underdown - wbrco(a)valuenet.net |
*:| Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, |
*:| homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! |
*:| http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn |
*:
*:---
Greetings:
I am wondering if any of you out there could help me out. I am looking to
acquire an old educational computer that I had years ago called the Laser
50 personal computer. What it was is an old educational computer (for
kids basically) produced by V-Tech, or Video Technologies, Ltd. around
the mid 1980s. This machine was the size of a regular laptop computer and
allowed small BASIC programs to be saved internally, and also had built
in educational software, calculator, etc. The manual I still have for it
says an additional cassette recorder could be purchased to save programs
on, as well as printers, and a 16k expansion unit.
Please let me know if you might have any information on this computer....
I would really like to find one for my kids. I am also looking to find
the address for the manufacturer. I know V Tech still makes computer-like
educational machines for youngsters today.
I would appreciate your help.
Thanks in advance,
CORD COSLOR
PO Box 308
Peru, NE 68421-0308
(402) 872- 3272
coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu
Hi all.
OK - here's the scoop so far on the Archival of
classic computer stuff. Please give your input
so that we can get the standards settled.
The UW has graciously given me permission to
attach a personal server to the network full
time for ClassicCmp, so the underwork for the
project is pretty well taken care of.
I have a system that I'm working on setting up
for the job - it will be a 486/66 with 32 MB
of RAM and 3 GB of disk space. I am currently
planning to set it up with linux. As you all
know I am terribly slow about getting things
done so it will probably be a couple weeks
before it goes online. In the meantime we will
continue to use the current FTP site which has
plenty of space available.
The particulars for how things will be stored
are listed below for your review.
Remember that the primary purpose of the
archive is to store these items so that
_someone_ can access them and make them
available. It's probably not possible to
always find a format that everyone can use,
but if the data is here you can be pretty
sure that you will be able to get it one way
or another.
System Software
System software will be stored in a variety
of formats. The preferred format will be
disk images for those machines for which
the means to create such an image has been
developed. Examples are the Apple II/III
(.dsk, .do, .po files) and C64 (.dsk files).
The alternate format will be disk images
created with a Central Point Option Board [1]
which will read almost any 5.25" or 3.5"
diskette. Those with such a board will be
able to simply download and use the images.
Those without will need to arrange to get
a copy through regular mail. It's not a
perfect solution but I can't come up with
anything better. This will not cover 8"
disks and I don't know how to deal with them
as yet.
General Software
Non-booting software will be stored in the
preferred compressed archival format for
each machine (GZip where available).
Firmware (ROMS, PROMS, PALS(?), etc...)
I still don't know what a standard format
for this should be. Anything which can be
dumped to a file I'm willing to go with.
My (limited) gizmo calls the format that it
dumps to my PC "RAW". I assume that this is
just the contents bit-for-bit. If anyone
can read/write in raw format I'd recommend
going with that.
Documentation/Books/Magazines
Text: Text should be presented in plain text,
RTF, or PostScript. I will convernt submis-
sions to conform to all three formats.
Line Drawings: Should be formatted in either
TIFF or PostScript format.
Images: Should be formatted as either JPEG
or PNG (Portable Network Graphic). I will
convert PNG to JPEG on submission.
Tag Files
Each item will require a tag file to cover
it's identification. This file is currently
DS-form.txt located in the docs directory on
the FTP site. It is probably not yet specific
enough on the technical details - I will need
recommendations on what to add. It does cover
all the legal issues I wanted to address.
Retrieving Files
These files will be made available by FTP.
Most will be easily downloadable by anyone.
Some (Firmware, System Software) will be
more difficult and will require physical
assistance. I will generally be willing
to create and mail disks for those who need
them and can provide the media. I am poorly
equipped to take care of firmware. Those
without the neccesary gizmos will need to
rely on the kindness of the group.
[1] The Central Point Option Board is a
device for an ISA bus PC that will read
almost any standard floppy. They are still
fairly commonly available for $20 or so.
Bill Whitson
I have a couple for sale/trade, but I'm afraid my valuation would be
somewhat higher than that :( I'd buy several more for $20 apiece if
they could be found.
If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board
boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and
get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with
software & cable at more like $50 or trade.
I'd trade one for a properly constructed/tested 34-50pin
CompatiCard-to-8"-drive cable, OR a CompatiCard IV to replace my CC II.
Kai
> ----------
> From: Richard A. Cini, Jr.
> Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 8:09 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Archiving
>
> >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a
> device for an ISA bus PC that will read
> almost any standard floppy. They are still
> fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>>
>
> I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it
> anymore.
> You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you
> recommend that
> I start looking??
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Rich Cini/WUGNET
> - ClubWin Charter Member (6)
> - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking
>
I have to get this off my chest.
Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I
had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s
I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious
each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try
the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet
ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2
worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed
were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad
luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired,
the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have
been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain
that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have
worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap!
There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them
on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first
C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all
of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's
got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there
must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how
unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap.
Aye.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
