In article <06fa01cd1743$79aea9f0$6d0bfdd0$@sudbrink at verizon.net>,
"Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink at verizon.net> writes:
> Interesting that one of your partners goes by Silent700
> but there are no Texas Instruments terminals in your wiki
> yet.
Yes, isn't that interesting?
I'll let him defend himself on that point. :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
----- Original Message:
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 16:18:16 -0400
From: Keith Monahan <keithvz at verizon.net>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Jack Tramiel passed away
Message-ID: <4F834408.8020104 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 4/9/2012 3:35 PM, David Riley wrote:
> On Apr 9, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Keith Monahan wrote:
>
>> On 4/9/2012 2:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> That's a shame. His impact on computing is frequently forgotten these
>>> days.
>>
>> It should probably be noted that Jack was a pretty ruthless business man
----- Reply:
Umm, why "should it be noted," especially a few days after his death?
Whether it's Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Jack Tramiel, why do some people feel
the need to insult and criticize (especially immediately after their death
in the case of the latter two) these people who did what they had to in
order to survive and be competitive and make the huge contributions that
they did to the field which is a hobby and a vocation for most of us?
Being "nice" doesn't usually succeed in a cutthroat field like computer
hardware and software; I don't think I'd call Jack "ruthless" but perhaps
his time in a concentration camp did give him a stronger sense of what it
takes to survive than some people.
>> and made decisions that were contrary to a stable and reliable machine
>> and accessories.
I don't know; all my PETs, VIC20s and all except one C64 are still working
as well as when they were new; other than C64 power packs and PALs
overheating, what decisions resulted in unreliable and unstable machines and
accessories? The drive interface issue you mention was precisely the result
of a compromise to make it reliable and stable (albeit slow).
>> I hope I'm remembering correctly, but I think the 1541 was a victim of
>> Jack Tramiel's rush-to-market engineering.
Again, I don't know if Jack was personally responsible, but yes, getting new
product "out there" before the competition has always been crucially
important and yes, sometimes decisions are made that have repercussions long
afterwards due to backward compatibility issues (640Kb oughta be enough for
everyone...)
In any case, the VIC20/1541 issue created an opportunity for numerous
third-parties to market speed-up solutions.
Let's give Jack the respect and credit he deserves and let him rest in
peace.
m
>
>Ok, THX guys,
>I've managed to get this thing running again, don't ask me how :-)
>
It's hard to know how to advise you where to go next when you don't tell us
where you are now :-)
>
>But my first problem, the cause of the fiddling with the system paramaters
>persists.
>
>This is the VIM73-69 source for VMS:
>
> The adequate command for mmk is:
>
> mmk /descrip=Make_vms.mms
>
> NOTE: Because of empty /auto/config.h (needed for Unix configure)
>build
> will fail with very strange messages. Therefore before building, it is
> recommended to make one clean up, to prepare everything for OpenVMS
> development. The command is:
>
> Buffer: INSTALLVMS.TXT | Write | Insert |
>Forward
>
>
>
>$ mms /descrip=Make_vms.mms
>
>using DECW/Motif/XPM environment.
>creating OS_VMS_MOTIF.OPT file.
>cc /def=("FEAT_BIG","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF","HAVE_XPM" )
>/opt/prefix=
>all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C
>%CLI-F-TEXT, Compiler abort - virtual memory limits exceeded.
>%SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort
>%MMS-F-ABORT, For target BLOWFISH.OBJ, CLI returned abort status:
>%X0000002C.
>-SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort
>$
>
>
>I've googled for the error and found this:
>
>http://www.jcameron.com/vms/em12.htm
>
>...that was the beginning of the problem.
>
[snip]
>
>So what should I do next to try to compile that VIM source (hopefully w/o
>to destroying the system again)
>
That webpage has some good advice. The C compiler installation guide should
include details on what SYSGEN parameters and user quotas need to be set to
for the compiler to function properly as well as how to set them.
If you don't have the installation guide, I would suggest finding out what
VIRTUALPAGECNT is now and if it is "small", increase it is smaller steps
than previously using AUTOGEN (not using SYSGEN, if that's what was used
before).
$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("VIRTUALPAGECNT")
will tell you what VIRTUALPAGECNT is set to now. Suppose it 64000. You could
try adding the line:
MIN_VIRTUALPAGECNT=100000
to the bottom of SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT using the editor.
and then use the following command to run AUTOGEN:
$ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN SAVPARAMS SETPARAMS
Then review the log files that AUTOGEN says it is producing and if things
look good, shut down and reboot.
Next, make sure that the userid running the compile has as much page file quota
as VIRTUALPAGECNT will allow:
$ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM
$ RUN AUTHORIZE
MODIFY HOLM /PGFLQUOTA=100000
If the userid is already logged in, be sure to log out and log back in to get
the new user quota to take effect. Then retry the compile. If it still fails,
check that VIRTUALPAGECNT has indeed been increased as expected and use:
$ SHOW PROCESS /QUOTA
in the same process as attemtped the compile to see what its pagefile quota is
set to. If they are as expected and the compile still fails, try increasing
both items some more as per the above procedure. Maybe try 150000 if 100000
is not sufficient.
>
>The VS4000 has 64 Mbytes of Ram, I think that should be sufficient to
>compile something like this, so it seems to me that some quote values are
>the problem.
>
What a process sees is virtual memory, not physical memory. The amount of
virtual memory a process can use depends on system parameters such as
VIRTUALPAGECNT (and BALSETCNT as pointed out by someone else) and user quotas
such as PGFLQUOTA and the size of the page file on disk. The process can end
up seeing less memory than physically exists or more memory than physically
exists depending on how various system parameters are set and how big the
page file is. VMS has lots of parameters to control memory allocation in order
to try to avoid just giving processes what they ask for and ending up leaving
other more important processes starved for memory when they need it.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
Does anyone know offhand if it's possible to use the "BCT" slot for an
RH70 in the PDP-11/70 backplane as a standard Unibus slot, for, say, an
RX211 or something like that? It would seem to be a normal Unibus slot,
it even requires that a grant card be installed if that RH70 board set
isn't installed.
I can dig through the print sets for hours to find this out, but if
someone knows offhand I'd appreciate an express clue delivery.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Less than one month to go .... we're up to 21 exhibits, four or five
lectures (I forget exactly; adding one more this week), and seven
technical workshops. All the details are posted at
http://www.vintage.org/2012/east/ and http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast8
.... if ever you considered attending VCF East, then let this be the year!
On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:25:47 -0500, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
wrote:
> whats a scratch monkey?
Scratch monkey is from a lab accident where real monkeys were killed
owing to diagnostics being run on a computer:
http://edp.org/monkey.htm
This may or may not be an urban legend
/Jonas
Guys, just got confirmation from his son Leonard, a friend of mine.
I'm sorry to say that Jack passed away yesterday. The man was an
immense influence in the consumer electronics/computing industry whose
legacy allowed many of us to enjoy years of great memories. My
sincerest thoughts goes out to his family in their time of loss.
Curt and I were supposed to interview him next week for the book on
Atari Corp. Was really excited to get the chance to meet and spend
time him. :(
--
Marty
Jonas Otter wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 14:30:23 +0200, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I've tried to compile the VIM-7.3 Sources on my freshly installed VS4000,
> >and entered a pitfall here.
> >Since the C Compiler was complaining that the virtuel memory is exhaustet,
> >I'veed the PGFLQUOTA for the user to 104826 and the VIRTUALPAGCNT SYSGEN
> >Value to 2097152 (max was displayed as 4194304)
> >I've let run autogen and ebooted.
> >
> >Now the system ewfuses to boot:
> >
> >%SYSBOOT-W-WS default and quota raised to PHD+MINWSCNT
> >%SYSBOOT-F-VASOV, system virtual address space exeeded
> >?06 HLT INST
> > PC= 00009631 PSL=041F0000
>
> From the VMS error messages manual at
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6023/6023pro_019.html :
>
> VASOVF, system virtual address space limit exceeded
>
>
> *Facility:*SYSBOOT, System Bootstrap Facility
> *Explanation:*The combination of SYSGEN parameters used to specify
> various capacities within the operating system have pushed the size of
> the operating system address space over the limit allowed by the VAX
> architecture.
> *User Action:*Reduce one of the parameters (BALSETCNT or VIRTUALPAGECNT
> (VAX only)) that contribute to the virtual address space size required
> by the OpenVMS system. By using AUTOGEN to set these values for your
> system, you avoid selection of parameter combinations that cause system
> space to overflow its architectural boundaries.
>
> To recover, perform a conversational boot (i.e. the boot process will
> let you modify system parameters to recover from a situation like
> yours). It is described here:
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/aa-pv5mj-tk/00/00/34-con.html
>
> Use the "booting with default system parameters" section. You probably
> then need to reduce VIRTUALPAGECNT below the value you have set (which
> gives a 2GB virtual address space) because the VAX architecture allows
> max. 2 GB virtual memory and you are probably just over the limit.
>
> The VMS documentation is excellent, you will find it online here:
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/
>
> and this is a good manual to start with:
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/aa-pv5mj-tk/aa-pv5mj-tk.HTMl
> (you will find it from the page above by following the link "OpenVMS
> Operating System" to the left.
>
> /Jonas
Ok, THX guys,
I've managed to get this thing running again, don't ask me how :-)
But my first problem, the cause of the fiddling with the system paramaters
persists.
This is the VIM73-69 source for VMS:
The adequate command for mmk is:
mmk /descrip=Make_vms.mms
NOTE: Because of empty /auto/config.h (needed for Unix configure)
build
will fail with very strange messages. Therefore before building, it is
recommended to make one clean up, to prepare everything for OpenVMS
development. The command is:
Buffer: INSTALLVMS.TXT | Write | Insert |
Forward
$ mms /descrip=Make_vms.mms
using DECW/Motif/XPM environment.
creating OS_VMS_MOTIF.OPT file.
cc /def=("FEAT_BIG","HAVE_CONFIG_H","FEAT_GUI_MOTIF","HAVE_XPM" )
/opt/prefix=
all /include=([.proto],decw$include:) BLOWFISH.C
%CLI-F-TEXT, Compiler abort - virtual memory limits exceeded.
%SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort
%MMS-F-ABORT, For target BLOWFISH.OBJ, CLI returned abort status:
%X0000002C.
-SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort
$
I've googled for the error and found this:
http://www.jcameron.com/vms/em12.htm
...that was the beginning of the problem.
$ set proc/priv=all
$ r authorize
UAF> sh holm
Username: HOLM Owner: Holm Tiffe
Account: UIC: [200,201] ([HOLM])
CLI: DCL Tables: DCLTABLES
Default: DKA0:[HOLM]
LGICMD: LOGIN
Flags:
Primary days: Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
Secondary days: Sat Sun
No access restrictions
Expiration: (none) Pwdminimum: 6 Login Fails: 0
Pwdlifetime: 90 00:00 Pwdchange: 3-APR-2012 20:05
Last Login: 7-APR-2012 11:40 (interactive), 7-APR-2012 11:34
(non-interactive)
Maxjobs: 0 Fillm: 300 Bytlm: 32768
Maxacctjobs: 0 Shrfillm: 0 Pbytlm: 0
Maxdetach: 0 BIOlm: 40 JTquota: 4096
Prclm: 2 DIOlm: 40 WSdef: 256
Prio: 4 ASTlm: 100 WSquo: 512
Queprio: 0 TQElm: 40 WSextent: 1024
CPU: (none) Enqlm: 200 Pgflquo: 40960
Authorized Privileges:
ACNT ALLSPOOL ALTPRI AUDIT BUGCHK BYPASS CMEXEC CMKRNL
IMPERSONATDIAGNOSE DOWNGRADE EXQUOTA GROUP GRPNAM GRPPRV IMPORT
LOG_IO MOUNT NETMBX OPER PFNMAP PHY_IO PRMCEB PRMGBL
PRMMBX PSWAPM READALL SECURITY SETPRV SHARE SHMEM SYSGBL
SYSLCK SYSNAM SYSPRV TMPMBX UPGRADE VOLPRO WORLD
Default Privileges:
NETMBX TMPMBX
UAF>
So what should I do next to try to compile that VIM source (hopefully w/o
to destroying the system again)
The VS4000 has 64 Mbytes of Ram, I think that should be sufficient to
compile something like this, so it seems to me that some quote values are
the problem.
Kind Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On 04/07/2012 01:43 PM, Scott Mickey wrote:
> I need someone to educate me as to why this DEC hardware is worth
> more than $1K:
> eBay auction -
> "DEC PDP-8 paper tape software, books and core memory card"
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320880958746
> At first I thought it was a gag, but then I looked at the number of
> bidders and the amounts.
Do you know any (for example) classic car enthusiasts? Do you know
any of them who have TRULY rare or historically-significant cars? Ask
them how much they'd pay for parts, or for entire vehicles. But, I
respectfully submit, if you have to ask the question, you wouldn't
understand the answer.
> I know there are a lot of older fellows out there holding on to their
> PDP and VAX hardware because they are quite fond of it. However, at
> some point each comes to the conclusion that unless they want to be
> buried with their computers, the same as the egyptian pharaohs were
> buried with their gold, they need to find a new home for them.
> A fellow who was on oxygen and too weak to pick up his computers any
> longer kindly give me two fully loaded VAXServer 3400's for free.
> A few years later, from another retired gentleman, I received a
> VT103 (11/23), VT100, RX02 (dual 8" flop drives), a pair of
> CDC 9427H "Hawk" drives (which about KILLED me when I lifted each
> one by myself), dozens of floppies, and a dozen 14" rigid platter
> disk cartridges. I got all of this for free too. I did pay $100
> for a MicroVAX II, with all original tapes and manuals. It has been
> very educational learning all this old hardware and running the
> early UNIXes on real hardware (not an emulator). I found all these
> people and all of this stuff locally on craigslist. So when I see
> bits of DEC paper tape and core memory going for more than $1000,
> I am flabbergasted. Completely. Shouldn't this money be staying
> in your retirement account? (No offense intended). Why is this
> particular stuff so valuable?
"I got this amazing, incredible deal once (or even got lucky enough to
get such a deal TWICE!), therefore they're all like that."
No, I'm sorry, that's not the way it works. You got lucky. Twice.
Don't take it for granted. I know people who would skip meals for the
hardware you listed. I wouldn't, but there ARE computer-related things
I'd skip meals to acquire, with no hesitation.
Just like any REAL classic car person...except the car stuff is a lot
more common.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
