test-drb August 2008

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

202 participants
323 discussions

by FJGJR1＠aol.com

Tony, You want to check with "Sharkonwheels" who posts on _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) . He is very knowledgeable on Kaypros "after" 1983. He uses and has info on Advent products. I am more involved with the 1982 / 1983 versions and post under GADFRAN. My website _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) may give you some other productive contacts to explore. He may also know of HandyMan. You may want to check just what version of K4 you have. Main large chips on main board will help - e.g. U43 and U47, etc. He will be asking you about them and other aspects. He is very familiar with the K10's. Hope this helps some. Frank In a message dated 8/31/2008 2:08:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tonym at compusource.net writes: I asked a while back on comp.os.cpm, and didn't get much response... Anyone remember how to use a HandyMan for the kaypro? This was an add-in board, piggy-backed between the Z80 and socket, and had a TSR-like pop-up Borland SideKick wanna-be. Trying to find some info, as a K10 I acquired came with a handyMan, and Advent 1MB RAMDisk, and K4 came with an Advent Clock, RamDisk, ProGraphics board, Personality module, and 5mHz turboboard. Tony= **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

16 years, 3 months

VCF East 5.0 just two weeks away!

by evan＠snarc.net

Now that the list is running again, I want to invite everyone to VCF East 5.0, Sept. 13-14, at the InfoAge Science Center, in Wall, New Jersey. As usual we'll have awesome exhibitors. This year we also have two special events: Vince Briel's replica creation workshop, where you can build a replica of the Apple 1 or the KIM under Vince's guidance, and we'll have a ceremony and tours for the "beta" opening of our computer museum. (We've been in "alpha" for the past two years.) Sign up for Vince's workshop at http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/workshop.php?action=select <http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/workshop.php?action=select&id=104> &id=104. We'll also have some cool guest speakers. Most notably, on Sunday, we have Bill Mauchly. Bill is the son of ENIAC co-inventor John Mauchly. We also have a lesser-known engineer named Watts Humphrey, who wrote the proposal for the military's "MOBIDIC" computer in the 1950s; it was an early example of client-server architecture. And we've got Claude Kagan, who spent 30 years at Western Electric and Bell Labs and who worked to get our museum a first-generation PDP-8. Tickets for one day are $10, both days combined are $15, and anyone younger than 18 is free. Parking's free too. - Evan

16 years, 3 months

My reply - Re: Kaypro 2000 Power supply

by tonym＠compusource.net

>-----Original Message----- >From: FJGJR1 at aol.com >Sent 8/31/2008 2:29:48 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: My reply - Re: Kaypro 2000 Power supply > >Check _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) and do a >post. > >Also check their links, especially I think it is _www.bitsavers.org_ >(http://www.bitsavers.org) [com?] in Britain. They have free downloadable manuals >for some Kaypros and other computers, which should give you the specs. > >"Sharkonwheels" posts on this site and he is big into a lot of Kaypros, but >not the 2000 I think. > >You can also check my website for other contacts - _www.kayprosts.org_ >(http://www.kayprosts.org) . But I am more into the first Kaypros before 1984. > >Kaypro 2000 certainly was something for its time! > >Good luck! > >Frank > > > > >In a message dated 8/29/2008 12:45:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >christian_liendo at yahoo.com writes: > >Does anyone know the power supply requirements for a Kaypro 2000? > >I got my hands on one and while it's nice and heavy I would like to turn it >on.. > Unfortunately, I don't know if there's any info out there on the K2000. last svc manual I have, is the 1484-F, which covers up the the Kaypro 16 and 286i I'm sure SOMEONE on here has to have one, if not, as Frank suggested, check post a message on vintage-computer.com/vcforum, and I;m pretty sure someone there has one. My interest lies mostly in the CP/M variants, although I have a few K16's, and I *WOULD* like to eventually find a K2000 - those were pretty unique machines! Tony

16 years, 3 months

MY REPLY - Re: HandyMan for Kaypro

by tonym＠compusource.net

Frank, I very much appreciate the response - however, *I* am Sharkonwheels on VC! :) I've never run into a HandyMan, though... 'ppreciate the confidence, though! Tony -----Original Message----- From: FJGJR1 at aol.com Sent 8/31/2008 2:23:27 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: MY REPLY - Re: HandyMan for Kaypro Tony, You want to check with "Sharkonwheels" who posts on _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) . He is very knowledgeable on Kaypros "after" 1983. He uses and has info on Advent products. I am more involved with the 1982 / 1983 versions and post under GADFRAN. My website _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) may give you some other productive contacts to explore. He may also know of HandyMan. You may want to check just what version of K4 you have. Main large chips on main board will help - e.g. U43 and U47, etc. He will be asking you about them and other aspects. He is very familiar with the K10's. Hope this helps some. Frank In a message dated 8/31/2008 2:08:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tonym at compusource.net writes: I asked a while back on comp.os.cpm, and didn't get much response... Anyone remember how to use a HandyMan for the kaypro? This was an add-in board, piggy-backed between the Z80 and socket, and had a TSR-like pop-up Borland SideKick wanna-be. Trying to find some info, as a K10 I acquired came with a handyMan, and Advent 1MB RAMDisk, and K4 came with an Advent Clock, RamDisk, ProGraphics board, Personality module, and 5mHz turboboard. Tony **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

16 years, 3 months

My reply - Re: Kaypro 2000 Power supply

by FJGJR1＠aol.com

Check _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) and do a post. Also check their links, especially I think it is _www.bitsavers.org_ (http://www.bitsavers.org) [com?] in Britain. They have free downloadable manuals for some Kaypros and other computers, which should give you the specs. "Sharkonwheels" posts on this site and he is big into a lot of Kaypros, but not the 2000 I think. You can also check my website for other contacts - _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) . But I am more into the first Kaypros before 1984. Kaypro 2000 certainly was something for its time! Good luck! Frank In a message dated 8/29/2008 12:45:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, christian_liendo at yahoo.com writes: Does anyone know the power supply requirements for a Kaypro 2000? I got my hands on one and while it's nice and heavy I would like to turn it on.. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

16 years, 3 months

Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits?

by wbblair3＠yahoo.com

> If you are referring to the schematics for the ASM > (Add-Subtract Mechanism), they are readily available, > although not including the values for the resistors > which determine the logic-gate functions. A scan and my > re-organised versions are accessible at: > > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/ABC/asm.html Thanks, that's a really great start. Prior to seeing your reply to my question, I requested an inter-library loan of the book "The Origins of Digital Computers - Selected Papers" which contains the paper which is excerpted on your excellent ABC site. Even though that book now looks like it won't provide the details I'd expected, since I won't be using the same voltages as the original circuits were likely using, the exact component values will be different anyway. I'm not very familiar with vacuum tube circuit design, but I have a PDF copy of the 1952 USAF technical order TO16-1-255 "Basic Theory and Application of Electron Tubes" which looks like it might be sufficient. I've built two different 12AU7 dual triode vacuum tube stereo headphone amps from plans which use much lower and, therefore, safer and easier-to-produce voltages (24 - 60V) than were used historically in such circuits. The required plate voltages for these low-power circuits are produced using simple voltage multipliers attached to commonly available and inexpensive low-voltage transformer secondaries. Since, in the case of digital logic circuits linearity of operation is not a requirement as it is with audio circuits, even lower voltages might be usable although 24 volts seems to be plenty low enough. > I was doing some calculations and experiments with vacuum > tubes a couple of years ago to recreate an ASM, to figure out > what might work for the logic-resistor values (not completed). > It would be nice to know what the original values were. > > If you are referring to the schematics for the entire > machine, I had the same interest when I was working on writing a > simulator (also on the web pages) to confirm some aspects of the > functioning of the machine. I managed to get the simulator > functioning without them, so didn't feel a dire need to get them, > although it would still be interesting to see them. > > Sometime after the sim was accessible on the web, I was contacted > by one of the fellows (Charles Schorb) who had worked on the ABC > reconstruction and I asked him about schematics. His reply: > ... > Schematics are a bit hard to come by. They requested > that I return all my schematics after leaving the project for 'my > real job'. Contact Gary Sleege to see if they have lightened up on > this restriction. > ... > but I haven't pursued it further. That's strange that they'd be so restrictive about the distribution of schematics for a machine that has no current value beyond that of a historical curiosity. I know that there was a legal battle between Mauchly with his ENIAC and Atanasoff with his ABC, but that was decided against Mauchly and claimed that his ENIAC plagiarized concepts used by Atanasoff's ABC which then invalidated Mauchly's earlier patent claim to the first electronic computer. Since Atanasoff won the case 35 years ago, why would they not willingly release all schematics now? Strange. > > but I suspect that since school is not in session, I > > won't soon get a response. > > (Actually, at universities, when school is not in session > can be a good time to contact people as the people are less likely > to be busy with students and teaching responsibilities, at least if > they're not on vacation.) Right you are. I've already received a reply to the effect that he will check with applicable points of contact. I'll let you know the results. Thanks, Bill

16 years, 3 months

Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't end in .edu - (was Re: OT: Microsoft crazy academic deal)

by tonym＠compusource.net

>-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Giliberti starbase89 at gmail.com >Sent 8/30/2008 10:37:11 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn'tend in .edu - (was Re: OT: Microsoft crazy academic >deal) > >To go back to the topic... > >Whoever posted the link to the "Ultimate Steal," Thank You! Just ordered a >copy, as this is my first year in college. > >And more to the off topic argument of what's better: Linux or Windows. In my >opinion, its a moronic argument to have. They are two totally different >animals. Its just a matter of personal preference. > > You're quite welcome - quite a few people have thanked me, and I just passed it along from slickdeals or notebookreview. You gotta dig REAL deep, apparently, to get past the bigots...I know a few people on the list, and when they suggested I join a few months back, I didn't realize what I'd find. Scary - some need to SERIOUSLY unplug, and learn to deal with humans again, because people skills are nowhere to be found! No matter - enjoy, and keep an eye out at that link, as they are supposed to have Vista Ultimate for $65 in a week or two. Oh, and to please the offended, yes linux is free, yes it's wonderful, yes it will do EVERYTHING your heart desires, oh, and yes, it's free.

16 years, 3 months

Ring vs BCD counters for decades

by shoppa＠trailing-edge.com

A couple points made in the past day that I can't resist following up on with my contradictory experience: > I think, rather, that that's a good portion of the explanation of why they > were so slow. > Ballpark example, take a 12AU7: the sum of the grid-to-plate and > grid-to-cathode capacitance is around 3 pF. Suppose the network resistance > feeding the grid circuit is 250 KOhm, that's an RC time constant of 0.75uS, > a little better than just 1 MHz. (R can be reduced of course but power > consumption is then on the climb.) > > (Not to say there weren't other reasons they were slow..) In fact, if you build similar flip-flop circuits out of transistors (essentially RTL) you'll end up with very similar counting speeds. The same tricks that speed up transistor flip-flops will speed up tube flip-flops: First you add some "speedup capacitors" to help overcome grid/base capacitance storage effects. Then you start eating away at your component variation/supply voltage variation margins to get extra speed at the cost of hand-picked parts. Then you start thinking about active pull-ups instead of just resistive pullups. Then you go to totem-pole structures. The concept works the same in both tubes and transistors. But until IC's you don't see it used an awful lot because with discretes, totem poles mean more parts. Even into the 80's NMOS and PMOS were still cutting edge and then the chip industry didn't go whole-heartedly into CMOS until the mid-80's. Brent wrote: > And how feasible would it have been to replace those ring counters with 4-bit > binary decade counters to save a lot of tubes? Perhaps it wouldn't have helped > much because of the way the values from each counter were transmitted around > the machine. Binary counters were around by then of course, I'm not sure when > binary counters were first wrapped into decade counters ( by late 40's at > latest). Both BCD counters and ring counters made out of tubes were around before WWII, and of course both were used a lot in WWII radar equipment. The earliest reference I know is Williams, "High Speed Thyratron Automatic Counting", Proc Roy Soc May 1932, mentioned in Electronics, July 1932, p 232. The flip-flop tube count difference is really very very minor: 5 tubes for a Johnson ring counter, 4 tubes for a BCD counter, and the BCD counter takes some cleverness to avoid the use of diodes (in the 50's could've been either vacuum or solid state) for gating. And the ring counter is much more easily decoded into ten digits for display. >From a purity point of view, the ring counter has some huge advantages in glitch-free decoding. But just like 70's TTL implementations, most designers were blissfully unaware of the glitches that messed up many of their circuits :-). Note that a lot of tube decade counters even into the 60's didn't use strict BCD or string ring arrangements, instead they always chose an arrangement that was most easily decoded for the application. Note that even in solid state IC form both schools are thoroughly established: The CMOS 4017 is a ring counter, the TTL 7490 is a BCD counter. Usually the ring counter was used where there was no need for any BCD coding. And the TTL nerds who didn't understand ring counters always used 7490's followed by a 7442 decoder when they wanted 10 decoded outputs, when they should've been using a ring counter to begin with! Tim.

16 years, 3 months

Subject: Re: Wanted: vacuum tube logic circuits

by wbblair3＠yahoo.com

Chuck Guzis wrote: > My first exposure to very-low plate voltage applications > was with a code-practice oscillator built from a circuit in the ARRL > Radio Amateur's Handbook. ISTR it used a 6SN7 that used the > 6.3v from the heater winding as plate voltage. At any rate, it would > drive a pair of earphones. Perhaps someone with a RAH collection > from the 1950's might locate the circuit. Thank you! That's the perfect tube multivibrator lead which allowed me to find these references using "code oscillator" and "6SN7" as search terms: p29, Dec '55: "A Heterodyne Crystal Calibrator AND CODE PRACTICE OSCILLATOR" uses both halves of a 7N7, 6SN7, or 12AU7 (or pairs of many triodes) and two crystals to give marker signals at the DIFFERENCE of the two crystals p41, Jun '52: "...Frequency Standard...Oscillator" uses a 6F6 oscillator, both halves of a 6SN7 as a multivibrator p30, Mar '62: Uses a 6AU6 oscillator at 100 kc and a 12AU7 multivibrator to also give 50 kc markers p33, Jan '65: Uses a 6AQ5 oscillator at 100 kc and a 6AS6 10-kc sub-harmonic generator (no diode and NO inductors!) p34, May '65: Uses a 6AU6 oscillator at 100 kc, a 12AU7 multi- vibrator for 10 kc points, and another 12AU7 All of these and more were found here: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.radio.amateur.homebrew/2007… Do you recall if the p29, Dec '55 project was the 6.3V plate voltage project you mentioned? The successful use of 6.3V as the plate voltage in a multivibrator using a standard HV tube is extremely encouraging. The lowest voltage used for the audio circuits I've built was 24V which was most likely used to put the tubes in a more linear operating region which wouldn't be necessary with a multivibrator. > While dual (identical) pentodes aren't too common for > you to use the first grid as a space-charge element, > I wonder if one of the sync-separator tubes, such as the > 6BU8 might not do the trick. Single cathode and first grid, > independent 3rd grids and plates. Thanks, that will be an interesting thing to try. > In the 20's and 30's before small-geometry power > tubes became available, "microwave" experimenters would take a > hefty triode and put a high positive voltage on the grid and a > slightly negative voltage on the plate to induce Barkhausen > oscillation. But that has nothing to do with your problem, so > forget that I mentioned But thanks for mentioning it anyway since I'm interested in reading about any unusual operating modes for tubes. Bill

16 years, 3 months

HandyMan for Kaypro

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: HandyMan for Kaypro > From: "tonym" <tonym at compusource.net> > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 06:02:12 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >I asked a while back on comp.os.cpm, and didn't get much response... > >Anyone remember how to use a HandyMan for the kaypro? >This was an add-in board, piggy-backed between the Z80 and socket, and had a TSR-like pop-up >Borland SideKick wanna-be. > >Trying to find some info, as a K10 I acquired came with a handyMan, and Advent 1MB RAMDisk, >and K4 came with an Advent Clock, RamDisk, ProGraphics board, Personality module, and 5mHz turboboard. > > >Tony I ahve the Advent 1mb ramdisk and handyman with RTC plus the personality card for the disks on my 4/84. Right now I'm up to my eyeballs to dig out the docs but I do have them. To use handyman I think it was a control key sequency that brings it up. Allison

16 years, 3 months

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test-drb August 2008