test-drb March 2007

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

239 participants
488 discussions

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec to the "official" Zilog PIO chip? The manual's dated November 1976 and stamped as preliminary, which is a little unsettling :) I want to do some messing around with a Z80 CPU and PIO, and having a physical paper reference to hand would sure be useful - I'm just not sure if I'm going to shoot myself in the foot using this particular one! I should go and google for Zilog / Z80 history I suppose to see where Mostek fit into things - I've got a rather thick Mostek UK Z80 programming manual (V2.0) too which would also make a useful reference, assuming it's sound for all Z80 chips regardless of source... cheers Jules

17 years, 1 month

2.11BSD source code browser and xref

by W.F.J.Mueller＠gsi.de

Gordon JC Pearce gordon at gjcp.net wrote: >> Since none of the existing tools seemed to do what I wanted, I wrote >> a perl script generating such a html'ized version of the source code. > > This is very very cool. > > The /bin/sh code is a bit of a horror, isn't it? I bet someone can tell > a funny story about that one... > > Gordon Indeed there is 'C' and 'Bourne-C', used in sh and adb, see the definitions listed after http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/sh/mac.h.html#n:12 http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/adb/defs.h.html#n:… Some of this is already handled in the parser, but there is clearly room for improvement. By the way: - point to a { } ( ) [ ] and a popup will tell you were the matching parenthesis is, it it is in a different line. Click on it, and you get moved to the matching end. In 'Bourne-C', IF and FI work this way. - point to a parameter-less macro, and a popup will tell you the definition if the string is short. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/

17 years, 1 month

2.11BSD source code browser and xref

by W.F.J.Mueller＠gsi.de

Ethan Dicks ethan.dicks at gmail.com wrote: >> Hope you enjoy it. Comments, suggestion ect are very welcome. > I had one tiny suggestion from what I browsed - when parsing out the > callers of functions, it might look nicer to not point out that > 'main()' is never called, since, technically, it _is_ called by the > startup code stuck on a binary by the compiler, and since it's defacto > entry-point into the code anyway. Good point, _main deserves indeed extra treatment. The startup code is by the way in http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/pdp/csu/crt0.… with the call to _main in line 124. > That's about all I can come up with except to wish that when the tool > is in better shape that someone has the time to run 2.9BSD sources > through the same treatment (2.9BSD still runs on non-Split-I&D > machines like those equipped with an F-11 chip - 11/23, 11/24, > Pro350). > > -ethan This is indeed the intention. The rules to locate include files, to link globals, or to decide what is kernel, lib, or user, is in a configuration file. To set this up for 2.9 BSD or UNIX V7 and V6 should not be difficult, in particular if one starts with the more complex case and goes back in history. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/

17 years, 1 month

Speed of text editors on 808x platform

by sdc695＠yahoo.com

All this talk of editors on PCs got me to thinking of my favorite: PC-EDT It was a clone of the EDT used under RSX-11(-M). Pretty faithful as well. It had problems with the keypad, being that the '+' took up two key spaces (as opposed to the standard VT-100 keypad), but overall it was nice. It even worked on old XT's and scrolled pretty fast. If you happened to do large Cut/Pastes it took some time as it swapped out the buffers to temp disk files. I still use the editor to this day after first using it in the 80's. The old keypad layout is pretty ingrained in my mind. EDT (on RSX-11) was my first screen editor, so I guess you get used to your 'first'. Unfortunately, vi seems everywhere, and as everyone knows knowledge of vi is almost mandatory for any person using Unix (Linux) (even today). Thankfully I haven't succumbed to emacs (and hopefully never will, even as the spell checker wants to capitalize the first letter!). -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail

17 years, 1 month

OT: Paxton Hoag on TV

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

I was rather surprised to see Paxton on the news this last weekend. He was in a spot on one of the local stations as a local historian talking about a landslide that they're having problems with in his part of the state. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

17 years, 1 month

2.11BSD source code browser and xref

by W.F.J.Mueller＠gsi.de

When searching lately a lot through the UNIX 2.11bsd source code I wanted many times a hyperlinked and cross referenced rendition of the sources, much like doxygen or lxr does it. For kernel, lib and user code, for c and assembler. Since none of the existing tools seemed to do what I wanted, I wrote a perl script generating such a html'ized version of the source code. The tool far from finished, but might already be useful. For a tour start for example with the code of the 'cp' command http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/cp.c.html and click along. The links connect C and asm code, the user land code, libc and kernel code. Look to the readdir() call in line 197, a click gets you into the libc module implementing readdir(). A further click on read() into the assembler stub doing the system call, and a click on the kernel handler listed there gets you into the kernel source. Here the links of the tour http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/bin/cp.c.html#n:197 http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/gen/readdir.c… http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/pdp/sys/__rea… http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/sys/sys/sys_generic.c.… The background color tells you in which territory you are in magenta boot and standalone code red kernel orange network code (running in supervisor) green libraries blue user level code If you want a kernel tour, start at http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/sys/sys/init_main.c.ht… Clicking on a symbol definition (or the X in the sidebar) gets you to the cross referencing info's. To see for example who is using setjmp see http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/src/lib/libc/pdp/gen/setjm… or who is including nlist.h see http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/test/211bsd/usr/include/nlist.h.html#xref:… As said, it's beta stage, the style sheet is still the debug version, not all links end where they should, not all is parsed as it should. Hope you enjoy it. Comments, suggestion ect are very welcome. With best regards, Walter -- Dr. Walter F.J. M?ller Mail: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de GSI, Abteilung KP3 Phone: +49-6159-71-2766 D-64291 Darmstadt FAX: +49-6159-71-3762 URL: http://www-linux.gsi.de/~mueller/

17 years, 1 month

pretty much OT: acoustic coupling

by rdawson16＠hotmail.com

We will get several comments after this post... I hope y'all will correct me. The acoustic coupler on the old teletype was 1200 baud, 10 characters per sec. to match the machine. It was FSK (Frequency Shift Keying) with two tones 1200hz and 2400hz for 0 and one. Depending on the # of start, stop bits in the serial stream and parity baud .NE. bytes/sec. Phone lines have a 2500hz bandwidth, and today's modems use QAM (Quadrature Amplitude Modulation). You can visualize this if you think of a signal as a rotating vector on an xy grid - say a constant sine at constant amplitude would represent a circle. put 4 points uniformly on the circle and XY grid, and you have 4 QAM. 16 points (rectangular array, not on the unit circle), 16-QAM etc. Each point represents 2 bits in 4-QAM (dibits), and 4 bits in 16-QAM. this is called the signal constellation. To further encode the signal and reduce errors, they use techniques called viterbi and trellis encoding, these limit the accepted signal transition >from one dibit, qbit to another. In addition, modern modems train the channel. That's the white noise you hear at the beginning of the dialup - both ends are doing equalization for this connection. If errors occur, they fall back to lower data rates and retrain. Our 56K modems never get there here in the US, it is an FCC limit, and the reasons I am not sure. These basic principles above also apply to cell/radio transmission. There are other goodies they can throw into the algorithms to reduce multipath reflection (ghosts, as in TV) due to buildings objects, aircraft. to conclude, Ill bet with a homemade cell phone acoustic coupler to -> RJ-45 jack interface you could get same performance as dialup, near 56K. Needed: Sponge/muffs to adapt the cell handset electrostatic mic/speaker some op amp stuff to get the signals leveled resolve the dial-in and dial-out issues to fool the PC for dial tone and auto answer (and interface to the cell keypad to answer and send) Randy >From: Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org> >To: talk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Subject: pretty much OT: acoustic coupling >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:39:38 -0700 (PDT) > >my application anyway. What is the typical maximum >speed of such a device, be it antiquated (I actually >used to have one of the old Radio Shack units), or >home-brewed. > And lookee, here's what I had: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIO-SHACK-ACOUSTIC-COUPLER-MODEM- >TRS-80-AC-3_W0QQitemZ180098721480QQcategoryZ80229QQss >PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > In fact, that's an acoustic modem. What I'd like to >implement is a "bridge" if you will between a modem >and a cellular device that would allow connection to >the internet. Ingenious, no? ;) > Please, no one tell me about software and such that's >presently available on the market. I'm aware of it, >own 99% of it, and I'll say here and now it's flakey >at best. > The technology is antiquated enough, albeit not the >application. O woe is me :( > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love >(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. >http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 _________________________________________________________________ 5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free quotes - *Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&searc…

17 years, 1 month

Mostek MK3881 PIO controller manual

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

Ahh, i won the book Z80 Workshop Manual from ebay the other week. It mentions UART and PIO I/O chips on the back cover. Mine is a reprint from 1986 and was originally printed in 1983. - Andrew B (via mobile phone) --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Does anyone know if the above is identical in spec to the "official" Zilog PIO > chip? The manual's dated November 1976 and stamped as preliminary, which is > a little unsettling :) > > I want to do some messing around with a Z80 CPU and PIO, and having a physical > paper reference to hand would sure be useful - I'm just not sure if I'm going > to shoot myself in the foot using this particular one! > > I should go and google for Zilog / Z80 history I suppose to see where Mostek > fit into things - I've got a rather thick Mostek UK Z80 programming manual > (V2.0) too which would also make a useful reference, assuming it's sound for > all Z80 chips regardless of source... > > cheers > > Jules

17 years, 1 month

Don Maslin/Archiving system software (was: ftp archives disappearing?)

by Billy.Pettit＠wdc.com

Jules Richardson wrote: For sure. But besides that, I see the web aspect purely as the most convenient method to allow users to do the searching. There's nothing to stop a search result pointing to a FTP site, physical mailing address to which to send your pre-paid envelope in order to receive a CD of data back etc. :) In other words, the actual data retrieval side doesn't *have* to be web-based at all (although realistically in most cases it probably would be). As you say, recording the date in the metadata is the way to go anyway! Billy: This brings in several points that should be discussed re: what is an archive. If I send manuals to be scanned and put on a web site, is that breaking the law? Here returns all the arguments about copyright law that have ensnarled this list before. Generally the answer is yes. But as one member responded, many copyright owners give a "wink and a nod" without officially blessing the activity. Of course many other IP owners have gone out of business and there may or may not be a new rights owner. Then comes the discussion of the manuals themselves. Many were distributed in thousands of copies. They fall under fair use laws. But some stuff from this list is detailed internal documents, such as software source listings, software maintenance documents, etc. This is a much more iffy arena. There might still be perceived value to this IP. In a few cases, and Control Data is one of them, IP (especially software) was sold and the new owner continues to protect his investment. If we want to play and share old CDC software, we have to ask for permission. To be on the good side of the new owner, we play by his rules. And he makes no effort to preserve the older unsaleable software. So the dilemma is how to save all this old software for the future? The method a few of us use is to make copies, put them in private archives and specifically prevent them from being accessed on the web. There may a very small private distribution to individuals known to have an interest in the software and willing to follow the owner's rules. This solves the preservation problem - multiple copies are saved. And it prevents the IP owner coming down like a ton of bricks. So now we have a young Turk who is going to save everything and distribute to whoever he wants. He ignores the narrow line that is being walked by the current public archives and even proposes we engage in illegal activities to help his acquisition yen. There doesn't seem to be any understanding that not everyone wants wide distribution of the software archives. Nor does he understand that what he wants to do could set off the wrath of IP owners against the current public archives. We survive at the whim of these IP owners. And many of them, like the RIAA, are in a bad temper. What a few of us are doing is ensuring multiple copies are archived without shouting it to the world. It achieves the goals of a lasting archive. And it keeps the Eye of Sauron away from us. And if copies are not available to leeches, too bad. Billy

17 years, 1 month

List very slow?

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Is there a reason the list is so slow right now? It's taking an hour or better for messages to show up. This was sent at 10:04am Pacific. Zane

17 years, 1 month

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test-drb March 2007