test-drb October 2007

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

228 participants
467 discussions

by tosteve＠yahoo.com

"Rawn's Buy & Sell Network" in Burnaby BC (Canada), says he has a warehouse fill of old computers to hopefully sell as a lot. Consists of mostly 80s and 90s systems, like Apple, Macs, IBMs, Next, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Hyperion, etc. as well as tons of software. Here are some pics he sent me: http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/oldpics/old.html Do not contact me, please contact: rawnsbuysell at lightspeed.ca Enjoy! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121

16 years, 4 months

xt/370 e-mail problem and stacked memory chips illustrated

by michaelryan＠mindspring.com

I have added a few new pictures to the xt/370 web site showing the stacked (and non-stacked) versions of the MCM66128L20, as well as two other examples of IBM engineering that employed stacked chips (AT motherboard and PC memory card) in the early 1980's. There are 36 pairs on the AT board to get 512K and 18 pairs on the memory card to get 64K. Obviously, these chips have different pinouts (at least select). The url is:- www.xt370.net click on the link to the left, 'Memory Technology' The question a data sheet might answer is:- does one of the new MCM66128L20 parts replace one of the old stacked pairs? --- also: -- >Subject: Re: Someone in search of XT/370 software >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> >He's on the list. I have at least some of VM/PC, but when I tried to >email him to let him know, I got an autoresponse from a white-list >agent, which sent me to an unresponsive URL. It was sufficiently >irritating that I figured it wasn't worth pursuing further. >Seriously, folks, if you're going to ask for help, don't make it >impossible for people to give. >ok >bear Bear's criticism is well-founded. I believe I have corrected the problem; I did receive the e-mails and have responded off-list. At any rate, I greatly appreciate the interest and am sorry for the inconvenience. Mike

16 years, 4 months

4004 and IC history / was Re: Vintage computer photogallery

by RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk

My memory may be at fault here but that sounds like it. A quad board ... I can't recall any yellow handles. It did have the standard DEC 20mA ASR 33 conector on a bit of short grey cable hanging off the top of the board. Other early sightings at DEC VT100 prototype . Wire wrap board mounted on a piece of thick plywood. Another similar bit of plywood on top with the monitor out of a VT52 perched on it. A third bit of plywood held the keyboard. A PSU (I know not whence that came) and an Intel MDS. (8 inch Floppy based in a blue box.) So I asked the inevitable 'Why all the wood' 'It doesn't short anything out came the reply' The design of the VT100 was done by one engineer who I met but I cannot recall his name. The case was the work of an industrial designer. We all thought the case was really smart LA36 prototype another wirewrap wonder with the print mech screwed to a board. LA180 prototype as LA-36 but with the wooden board clamped to the bench to stop it leaping about. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: 18 October 2007 04:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 4004 and IC history / was Re: Vintage computer photogallery > I'm sure I saw a development system at DEC for the 4004 running on a PDP-8 circa 1975. I think in its collection, RCS has a DEC Y187 card (the only yellow handled Flip Chip I have ever seen) that has a 4004 on it. -- Will

16 years, 4 months

[lisaem] LisaEm 1.2.0 - No ROMs? No problem!

by ray＠arachelian.com

LisaEm 1.2.0 is available for download right now, from the usual place: http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html Many LisaEm users have complained that ROMs are too difficult to extract. The new version of LisaEm solves this by allowing you to run with out a ROM. If you wanted to try LisaEm, but couldn't because you didn't have ROMs for it, now you can! It emulates the functions of the Lisa Boot ROM as well as the Dual Parallel Card without requiring a ROM, and allows you to boot into Lisa Office System. If you've felt limited by only having a single emulated Profile hard drive because you didn't have the Dual Parallel ROM, the new version also emulates these, without requiring a ROM. All you need is Lisa Office System and LisaEm. As this is the first release of this feature, don't be surprised if you encounter bugs. Please report any unexpected behavior so that I can fix it. :-) Additionally, I've added two movies that show how to install Lisa Office System and MacWorks. (MacWorks still doesn't work properly on LisaEm however.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lisa Emulator Change History http://lisaem.sunder.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2007.09.19 - fixed romless floppy boot to always boot from floppy and not switch to Profile. 2007.09.15 - debugging ROMless boot. new bug: when trying to boot from floppy, if a profile exists and is bootable, LOS starts up from the Profile instead of the floppy. 2007.09.09 - David Cecchin's XPM icon in unix 2007.09.07 - added Save/Load PRAM to Preferences - Quit now closes any open Preference window as well 2007.08.29 - libdc42 macbinii encoded dart to dc42 conversion bugfix 2007.08.16 - added LOS error codes to ROMless error handler - fix raw screenshot crash 2007.08.13 - got both ROMless boot and ROMless dual parallel card to work 2007.08.06 - individual profile power controls + create new profile inside a new menu named profile. 2007.07.28 - replaced all exit() and EXIT() calls with messages before quitting emulator so at least we know what crashed. 2007.07.27 - ROMless works with both profile and floppy now. - Fixed a bug with configuration saving. 2007.07.26 - Tracelog checkmark correction 2007.07.25 - added Zap PRAM button in main Preferences panel 2007.07.23 - ROMLess booting - floppy works 2007.07.19 - ROMLess booting start 2007.07.12 - RESET opcode supervisor mode bug fix. 2007.07.10 - CPU core tests If you'd like to support this project, you can do so by sending me something from my Amazon wish list. (Used books and DVD's are perfectly fine with me.) The trains are for my kid. :) http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/14EOBF86ARMDT/ref=wl_web/

16 years, 4 months

Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance

by brian＠quarterbyte.com

Hi Folks, As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. I stopped by today, and mentioned to Maurice, the owner, that a lot of people would have liked to have had one last shot at a visit. So, he has extented an invitation to y'all to visit next week, Tuesday through Friday February 7-10, 2006, during normal business hours, for one last shopping spree. He is trying to find a buyer for the stock in the store. This is almost certainly the last chance to visit. If you can, it's worth doing whatever you have to do to make the pilgrimage. Buy some stuff to thank Maurice for keeping it going all this time. There are zillions of connectors and components, heaps of transformers and power supplies, scads of cables and keyboards and monitors and other PC junk, a jet fighter console or two, a couple of early 80's HP desktop computers (the ones with built-in BASIC, can't recall the model numbers), lots of relays, and much more, all arranged in an archaeologically interesting and un-seismically-safe way. If you need it, they have it, and they might even be able to find it. Mike Quinn Electronics 401 McCormick Street (at the corner of Adams and McCormick) San Leandro, CA 94577 Brian

16 years, 4 months

these RTL or what?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: these RTL or what? > From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net> > Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 01:38:08 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Tuesday 02 October 2007 09:56, Allison wrote: >> >Subject: these RTL or what? >> > From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net> >> > Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:01:29 -0400 >> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> > >> >I ran across some data in the pile of what I've been collecting, and >> > there's some stuff there apparently by Signetics (?) referring to what >> > they're calling "Utilogic II" -- is this stuff RTL or what? It doesn't >> > say. Dates are in the late 1960s, and it looks like it, but I figured >> > I'd ask in here... >> >> There are many early families of saturated logic RTL is the oldest, > >Which explains why I was seeing it first, and hobby-type projects based on it >back when. The big thing of DTL was to add diodes to the input of the basic RTL structure for increased (noise immunity) input thresholds for better noise immunity. Both families were easily wired OR and systems built around it usually exploited that feature. >> DTL and it's kin "utilogic" where the intermediate sorta TTL like >> and later TTL( H,LS,S,F,AS,C,HC,HCT flavors). > >My first TTL book (which I still have) was a TI book that covered the >standard, H, and L varieties. LS and S I can understand, F and AS still >confuse me a bit, I'm not quite sure where they fit in. Then there are all >those CMOS variants. C parts are pretty uncommon these days, and I'm not >real clear on the distinction between HC and AC (I know about the ones with T >in there, just shifted thresholds on the inputs and I have a pile of 'em.) > >> In the middle of all that was ECL (also about three or four generations) a >> fast non saturating logic. > >I've read some ECL data, but have never done a darn thing with it, nor even >seen much of anything that used it. From what I understand it had some weird >packaging sometimes, very tight board layout requirements (I was mostly >thinking of wire-wrapping stuff), and was very power-hungry. I guess if I >ever want a prescaler for a counter to get *way* up there or maybe one or two >other apps I can think of I might eventually have to go there, depending on >what parts I can find. But I'm in no hurry. :-) VAX9000 built of ECL100K, fastest of the fast. The second most common use of TTL was in very high speed instrumentation and specifically frequency counters and UHF PLLs. >> What amazing is when people say "60s" you must do so with care as >> 1960 was basically germainium transistors but by 1964 silicon >> transistors are about and ICs were already appearing. Most >> integrated circuit logic was post '65 and even then from that >> point speeds went from about 3mhz to 30mhz and RTL was replaced >> by TTL by 1970. > >I did say "late 1960s" up there. :-) Even then.. ;) It's hard to imagine the rate of change. An example, Apollo Guidance Computer. The AGC was designed too be built of RTL, by time it actually flew to the moon is was actually a generation behind as TTL existed by then. Of course that really was becase of development time being so long and space systems having to be man rated (reliability assured). It was a case then of if it was out the door likely a whole new generation and technology was already in design. Where commercial computers went from transistors (1965ish PDP-5) to DTL and early TTL (1967ish PDP-8) in that same time window. Computer design and packaging underwent significant change and not all of it was grossly obvious. >> The evoloutionary scale was very steep from the mid 50s to the mid 70s. >> That 20 years window we went from computers with tubes to microprocessors, >> delays lines or other serial storage to semiconductor RAM. > >I remember seeing some of the boards from the tube stuff for sale in various >electronic junk places around. I may have even got one or two for parts, >though there was nothing to be done with those backplane connectors. I >remember one set of 9-pin sockets for which it was apparent to me that they >were using something like a 12AU7, because of the center-tapped heater >connections. :-) Yep, back then those were good sources of parts for building radios. Most however were noncomputer pulled from things like old instruments and the like. Allison

16 years, 4 months

Vince Briel's Micro-KIM workshop at VCFX

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

Vince Briel's Micro-KIM workshop at VCFX is now open for registration: http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/workshop.php $99 which includes the kit and personal instruction from the man, the myth, the legend himself! Space is limited and Vince's workshops sell out fast, so get in while you can. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

16 years, 4 months

2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs

by dm561＠torfree.net

-----------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:48:55 +1000 From: Doug Jackson <doug at stillhq.com> Subject: Re: 2708 EPROM progreammer - old magazines designs John S wrote: > > As 2708s are obsolete few moern programmers support them, apart from a few > > that cost many $100s. So I thought why not try and build one? I've found > > references to the following classic magazines, and I would be willing to pay > > a small fee for photocopies or scans of the articles: > > > > Program your next EROM in BASIC. Schematic for a 2708 erasable read only > > memory reader and programmer which uses parallel IO ports to set data and > > address. The software to drive the programmer is written in BASIC. > > Byte - March 1978 page 84 on (main article) > > Byte - April 1978 page 62 (Byte Bugs) > I have a programmer designed by Steve Ciarcia from BYTE - It uses an 8051AH-Basic (The 8051 with basic embedded) as the controller - and still works a treat - to this day. - Standalone board, interface via serial. It was fun to see peoples faces when you shipped a ^C down the serial line, and dropped through to a READY prompt. I can find the doco for yo, but it is a high end solution to a simple problem. Alternately, I'm more than happy to read an eprom for you, and email contents - I'm in Oz though. Perhaps there is somebody in the US who could do the same. Doug -----------------Reply: I have one of those as well; alas, it does NOT do 2708's. To the OP: I can scan the KB article for you, but the 2708 programmer is intended to work with a Motorola MEK6800-D2, and consists of nothing more than 3 transistors to switch the 27V (and a couple of switches and a socket for the EPROM). It's all done in software. mike

16 years, 4 months

what the heck is it

by rescue＠hawkmountain.net

I 'rescued' a unique piece of computer equipment... Here is the data: Raytheon RDS-201E (on badge on front/top) P/N G246101-3010 (from badge on rear) Model VT302 (from badge on rear) This has 2 5.25" full height floppy drives (like the original IBM PC) likely Tandon mechs ? Has a 'built in' (more like 'built on') screen. Has switches for 10 pitch/12 pitch 1/1.5/2 spacing and another I forget (they are on the monitor piece). I don't have a floppy. Ports on the back look like possibly a printer port and the other likes similar like a short printer end centronics interface. So... internet searches have turned up nada.... So.... what the heck is it ? Is it a computer ? Is it some sort of terminal ? I have no media for it... so if it is a computer, I'm doubtful I'll turn up anything for it. Same goes for the keyboard. It is a unique looking enclosure though... very very retro Help me identify what this is, and what I should do with it (if a computer and I can get media, will probably at least play with it, then if no interest find a new owner for it... if some sort of wacked out terminal... if there is no interest, I'm going to yank the drives and anything else useful and scrap it, or if feasable... maybe use it as a 'case mod' for a PC (I usually loath this... but got to admit, this would make a highly unique PC :-) ). -- Curt

16 years, 5 months

Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. > From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon at tiac.net> > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:03:43 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Is anyone familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic >machines? > >I recently found a small rack filled with small transistor logic modules. >Each module holds a flip flop or two at most. >The modules are small PC boards with a metal frame and handle. Test points >give you the state of each transistor >on the module. > >Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well. > >These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more >resemble subminiature vacuum tubes. > >The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads >shows a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and >appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is >connected to a bus in the rack of logic. > >There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort >of glow discharge tube. > >Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style >filament and a grid-like structure, but >I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires' >outside of the grid, one in front and one >behind the central grid-like / filament structure. > >The logic itself is made from 2N414 transistors, mil-spec at one time, >covered in conformal coating. Markings >show this device came from the USAF Airborne Instrumentation Labs. I only >have a small part of some >larger system, but I would like to power this rack of logic up and see these >indicators in action. > >There is something very familiar about these things. They remind me of >something I may have seen once >in a telephone switching application when I was in the USAF long ago. > >Any idea what these things may be? I'll try to get a digital photo, but the >tubes are mounted under small >metal clips with short leads. > They are vacuum florescent indicators. the anode (part that will glow) is +V applied around 16-40V range and the cathode (most minus voltage) is formed by the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). Some flavors of these also have a grid between the heater and the anode and act like a triode vacuum tube in that if the grid is sufficiently negative compared to the cathode/heater the tube will not glow if it is zero or positive (a few volts) the tube will glow. The transistors are then not required to handle much voltage or current as 2n414 was a low power alloy junction germainium (Vce of -20V and Pd of 150mW) so it could not switch much current or voltage. Any display used had to be operatble with less than 20V (more like 15or less) and only a few milliamps. I've also seen several such racks and displays down in RI. Basically the system is built of standard logic elements available in the late 50s early 60s and an element could be a gate or Flip flop and likely not many gates and only one FF to a card. Voltages were typically low in the less than 15V range. The cards rarely were a complete computer but more like a sequencer or other fixed logic system that was designed for a specific use. Use care powering that as power supplies may have bad caps, and wires may be cut/shorted. Allison

16 years, 5 months

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test-drb October 2007