test-drb January 2006

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

240 participants
511 discussions

Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them

by aek＠bitsavers.org

I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them become rare and desired later on? -- Corvus Concepts Weird Stuff (when they were in Milpitas) had pallet racks full of Corvus stuff. -- What is more interesting is what exists now that should be saved.

18 years, 10 months

way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

Hi I'm not sure what you mean here. I have code that I use similar to Dave Dunfields that talks directly to I/O devices. The only assembly code I wrote is a few lines for the interrupt acknowledgment >from the DMA controller. Ease of I/O control is one of the better points. If you mean there are often no libraries, this is really a matter of whose Forth you are using. There is a commercial Forth that is intended to be run as a tethered Forth. It can be used with a serial port or with one bi-directional line and a strobe signal. This allows interactive from a PC while the final application could be standalone, on minimum resourses. Dwight >From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at blazenet.net> > >On Monday 30 January 2006 02:03 pm, Richard wrote: >> In article <200601301050080652.435B73FC at 10.0.0.252>, >> >> "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: >> > I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. [...] >> > My impression is that the suitability for a >> > task decreases quickly as the task size increases. >> >> I'd say that's accurate. FORTH was designed for microprocessor >> control in embedded systems. People have added all kinds of layers on >> top of the kernel over the years, but its typeless nature gets kind of >> grungy in larger applications. > >In spite of what I hear about it being designed for that kind of app >(originally for telesscope control?) the stuff I've gotten so far seems to be >remarkably weak in terms of i/o operations, with a LOT (way too much) being >devoted to console-I/O type stuff. Which doesn't help a whole lot when you >don't have a console... > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin >

18 years, 10 months

Collecting development kits

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

Hi I have two but I'd like to keep them both. I once had three but I've since given one to another friend. One of the two is in a project I built and the other is the one I play with. I have a FDC-ONE board, also, but I've not had time to replace all the missing parts and get it running. To make things complete, I have a working KTM-2 ( 40 ) as well :) I also have a SYM2. It is basically a slightly stripped down SYM1 but does have an on-board +5 regulator so it can be run from an AC wall transformer. Dwight >From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at blazenet.net> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:58:11 -0500 >Subject: Re: Collecting development kits > >On Monday 30 January 2006 02:04 pm, Dwight Elvey wrote: >> I have a number of other single board development units like SYM-1's. > >You have multiple SYM-1s? Wanna part with one? > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin >

18 years, 10 months

iUP201

by graham.warrington＠gmail.com

I did a search on an intel iup201a EPROM programmer , and noticed that you may have one , or did in 2003..... Was wondering if you still have it , or if you got rid of it .. I am looking for an EPROM burner that will do 2716's-32's-64's - and 27128's ........ Please advise ... Thank you Graham ( VE1FC)

18 years, 10 months

RK611 schematics

by henk.gooijen＠oce.com

Tony wrote: > Hang on, there can't be. Assuming there's not a continuous stream of > reset pulses too, E46 can't be setting and resetting. > > What instrument are you using to check these signals? Do you know it's > got the right thresholds for TTL logic? What are you using as the ground > reference? Yes, I was puzzled too when I saw those signals. I first used the Fluke 77 for a quick check. When I saw 3.7 V on TTL pins, I figured that it is either a bad signal or the signal is not DC, but some pulse. So then I pulled the D100 out. The inputs are all set to TTL, and the 'ground' I used was pin 7 of E46. > I checked the 4-input NAND E5 ... although all 4 inputs (xxx COMBINED > ERROR L)> are continuous "1", I see lots of pulses on the output pin 8 ? > Again, impossible unless eirhter E5 is malfunctioning, or you're not > actually seeing what's at that point. I hate to say this, but I suspect > the instrument and/or its use. And again, I was amazed too. But the output of E5 did not look like a spurious signal. The D100 gets correct through the initialisation at power up ... > > Perhaps I have missed something, but as the 4 inputs are "combined" error > > signals, I decided to remove the flat cable from M7904 to the bulkhead. > > Don't ask me how that idea came up. > I would love to know which of those signals was actually to blame. I've > traced ech of them back onto the other boards, but the logic quickly > becomes complicated, and I don't want to go too deeply into an irrelevant > area... I know what you mean :-) The RK07 and its controller is definately complex. I was also tracing the signals back and things get quite complicated, so that is where I decided to remove the flat cable ... a hunch ? > Sounds like noise pickuop on the cable or something. Looking at RG6 > COMBINED ERROR L, for example, it's a combination of bits read back > from the drive status shift registess on sheet RG6. The input to that lot > comes from the drive cable receicers on sheet DR8, so noise there could > well cause problems. Yep, the flat cable that I used was not shielded, and about 6 meters long ... The BC06R is a "-6" version, so a lot shorter (and shielded). Regarding noise, I suspect that the print set is not 100% up-to-date, but given the quality of the drawings from DEC, I assume that I am wrong. But, pin 2 of the E46 S/R flipflop is not connected (according to the diagram). This is the D input of the flipflop, and since the clock input (pin 3) is connected to Gnd, the state of the D input is irrelevant according the data book. However, with the Fluke 77 I measure 1.55 V on pin 2. I consider not- connected input pins a bad design, but I will not tie pin 2 to Gnd or with a 1k pull-up resistor to +5V, because that pin changes voltage during reset!! BTW, I found the same signal on E5 pin 8 and E43 pin 12, so the drawing checks out on that connection :-) > If you fold out the logic cage in the RK07, you should see a 00 01 10 > pattern on the head select LEDs and a binary count on the cylinder LEDs. Now, why did I (again) not think of that!? Looking at the head movement requires you to "stare" at a screw on the head assembly and try to see the motion to a fixed part next to that screw ... > > it is no hung on the 11/34, the drive is formatting the cartridge! > > Finally I get the RT11 prompt, but also a message that the formatting is > > aborted due to too many bad blocks. > Right. I'd be interested to know if, perhaps, one surface is completely > bad and you have head, head switch, or something like that, problems. Me too :-) As I have to remove the rear cover to swap :-) the terminitor for the plug/cable to the second drive, I will look at those LEDs. > I've not got the diagnostics, but I wonder if one of those programs could > tell you that sort of thing. I only have brief descriptions (which are also on my site), not the complete source listings of the diags. But I will run the diags that require the drive (and a mounted cartridge). > > I must thank Tony. Without his replies I probably would have done > > nothing for a few weeks. Because he put some of his time in helping > > I felt obligated to keep going ... > Thank you for that. I was fairly close to leaving this list due to the > amount of flamage I seem to receive, but I'll stay while I'm still > managing to help people to keep these fine old machines going. Ah well, I think it is just a matter of how you look at things. Without going into that subject, I'd say that swapping is for some of us the only option. Not everybody understands electronics that well as you do Tony. An educated guess when you swap *one* board is still better then tossing the stuff in the bin, because it does not work. It isn't always that black and white. And I must admit that I was tempted in swapping boards too. Now, I know that would not have solved the problem as long as the flat cable was still connected to M7904 !!! I know, this proves that measurements are the only way, but still, that is not easy for many (?) of us. I first had to search for 3 dual extender boards before I could even begin for starters ... Hmmm, now I did get into that subject! Anyway, any feedback is a drive to continue what you are doing. That counted for me, and I figured that my "thank you" also counts for you, and that everybody will appreciate some feedback! That explains the existence of this mail list and the many people that contribute to it. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation.

18 years, 10 months

streaky printing?

by alhartman＠yahoo.com

Anyone with LaserJet 4000 and 4050's and similar printers can buy a Maintenance Kit from www.printerworks.com and put it in yourself... It replaces the rubber components and the fuser, so you can give your wonderful workhorse of a Laser printer, a little TLC. I recommend it every 200,000 pages (as does HP). The kits come with FULL instructions and anyone on this list can handle it... There are similar kits for the Laserjet 4, 5 and 6, 2000, etc... Regards, Al Hartman > From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> > Agreed. Putting in a new toner cartridge always fixed it. Actually > I'm impressed with how much of a solid workhorse my HP LaserJet 4000N > has been. I'm a big of a print pig and I bought the cheapest > duplexing laser printer I could get almost 10 years ago. I have put > at least 10 boxes (not reams, but boxes of reams :-) of paper through > this thing and probably 5-10 toner cartridges and it has never broken > down.

18 years, 10 months

DSD A2130

by aek＠bitsavers.org

Its a buy-it-now item on ebay, 2 available, price $15 -- They appear to be Unibus. You can see bus grant and interrupt jumpers above the third connector. A2131 is pdp8 A4430 is unibus A4432 is qbus >from http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040009-01_440_UG_Jul81.pdf A2130 is unibus A2132 is qbus >from http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040008-01_210_UG_Nov78.pdf

18 years, 10 months

Collecting development kits

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Paxton Hoag" <innfoclassics at gmail.com> > >I have several Intel IPDs with emulators and eprom burner plugs. >Paxton > >On 1/29/06, Keys <jrkeys at concentric.net> wrote: >> I also have a few boards and some Intel development equipment. > Hi I have a SIM4-01 with motherboard and 1702A programmer card. I also have a MDS800 and a series II. I've not had time to play with the 8080 machines but the MDS800 has a Z80 ICE board in it. I have a number of other single board development units like SYM-1's. The most unusual unit I have is a development system for the Intel i2920 ( not a bit slice part ). These were Intel's early attempt to get into the DSP world. They'd have been great about a year earlier but the part was slow and limited in it's operations. I have a number of chips for it as well. These are programmable with a EPROM area for program space. I have an app note that shows how to make an audio spectrum analyser. Dwight

18 years, 10 months

Multibus website updated

by rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com

I've just finished updating of my Multibus board website. It's at <http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/multibus/multibus.html>. If anyone can provide any more info on the cards there or pictures and info on other Multibus cards that aren't currently on there feel free to e-mail me directly. Joe

18 years, 10 months

way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

>From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > >On 1/30/2006 at 1:15 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Ontopically, I was thinking learning Forth was going to be my next big >>project, but I'm debating that some more and I think my free time will go >>a different direction; mainly getting back into 6809 assembly. > >I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. Intriguing idea, but it struck me >as a "quick and dirty" easy-to-implement language. I don't think I'd want >to implement a General Ledger package in it, but for fool-around small >projects, it's probably fine. My impression is that the suitability for a >task decreases quickly as the task size increases. > >--Chuck Hi It is interesting that one of Forth's main virtues is saving large projects that get lost in unmanageable 'C' code. It has been brought in several times to save software projects that were just running on and on. As Richard mentions, it is an un-typed language. For many, this puts it in a lower class of programming language. In Forth, you have the freedom to pass any parameter as an address, even if it is totally in error. It's main advantage for larger projects is that one transforms the language into a language that makes sense for that project. One can even add type checking if it is required. It also tends to help the programmer write smaller simpler modular code that is more easily tested and debugged. This can significantly increase the output of the programmer for large projects. Since the language is often redefined around the project, it often requires strong project leadership or, when using a large number of programmers, the programmers tend to run off into tangents that don't match the main flow of the project. It is also called a programmer amplifier. A good programmer will write better code but a bad programmer will write really bad code. It has typically been used in control applications but data base systems and many other applications have been written using it. Usually, it is used for prototyping of a project and later replaced by something like 'C' code to keep a more maintainable code. It isn't that the code is really any more difficult to maintain than other languages, it is just that it is so much different looking, it takes someone the is proficient in it to read and understand what is happening. Still well written code can be handle by almost anyone. One of the people I know wrote a piece of code to handle some form of encoding/decoding ( I forget which one ). When he handed the code in, the manager passed it back to him and said that he must have made a mistake. What the manager thought he'd gotten was a spec sheet for the encoding and not the code to do it. This is what is meant by transforming the language to the application. If all programmer's output looked like this, the concept of maintaining code would completely change. Well written code should read this well in any language but most languages get in the way and hide the application. Sorry for rant, it is just that of all the programming languages that I've ever used, I am the most productive in Forth. I use it for almost all of my home projects, when I'm not forced to use some other language. Dwight

18 years, 10 months

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test-drb January 2006