APC and the Xerox 16/8 had 8inch drives as an option.
So did the Canon as-100 *very rare*. Dave Dunfield has
Dos 2.? for the APC on his site.
--- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org <cclist at sydex.com>
wrote:
> On 12/12/2005 at 9:08 PM Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> >I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8"
floppies that run
> >MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could
probably
> >contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that
fashion if I
> >installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion.
(would be
> >tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8"
simulatneously, and
> >maybe even impossible).
>
> You may want to look at what the NEC APC did for
MS-DOS and 8" drives. I
> think I've got a couple of original 8" MS-DOS
diskettes for the APC, but I
> don't recall what version.
>
> Cheers,
> Chuck
>
>
>
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>
>Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software
> From: Scott Stevens <chenmel at earthlink.net>
> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:30:56 -0500
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>
>Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very
>useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS.
>It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was
>out there and some of us grabbed a copy.
>
>And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may
>have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it.
>
>It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic
>that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an
>MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics'
>(somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically
>to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows.
It's other brother, QuickBasic4.5/dos is in that collection and still
something I use. My old dosware, early windowsware is stuff I'd bought
and gotten with my first machines. Some of those machines didn't last
but I did keep the software as it's useful and mine.
However the one I like the most is Corel Paradox for windows as the license
is actually in english and allows for a work copy and a home copy on the
basis that you are only really using copy of it at any time. That and it
produces decent Pascal!
Allison
----- Original Message ----
From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Stevens" <chenmel at earthlink.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software
> Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very
> useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS.
> It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was
> out there and some of us grabbed a copy.
>
> And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may
> have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it.
>
> It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic
> that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an
> MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics'
> (somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically
> to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows.
http://www.qbcafe.net/english/index.html?dl_pages/compiler/index.html~qbc_m…
This link has a few libraries for QuickBasic and Visual Basic for DOS (and
if you dig around it has the VBDOS binaries). Visual Basic for DOS can do
real graphics just like QuickBasic can, the interface is just DOS based I
believe.
---------------------Reply----------------
Most third-party MDA cards were Hercules-compatible and could display
better graphics than CGA (Mono, of course, but much cheaper than EGA or VGA,
and surprisingly, Windows didn't look too bad without colour).
And there was a driver to use the internal speaker for sound if you couldn't
afford a sound card...
mike
On Dec 12 2005, 21:17, Allison wrote:
> I did say 73B didn't I? There were two different J11 cards, I am
using
> the M8190 KDJ11-B which is Q22. However there is a later J11 that
uses
> the PMI memory. I have memory for that one but not the CPU.
Yes, you did say 73B. As I'm sure you know, there were two 73s, one
dual M8192 and one quad M8190. The dual is QBus only, naturally, no
PMI. The 83 is also quad, and is the same M8190 card as the 73, but
with a faster clock (the earliest J11s won't run reliably at 18MHz let
alone any faster) and slightly different bootstrap ROMs. 73 was sold
as a 15MHz non-PMI system and the 83 as 18MHz PMI, but in fact you can
move the 73 card below the memory instead of above it and it will work
(if the memory is PMI, anyway!). In fact the OSs distinguish 11/73
systems from 11/83 systems simply by checking if they're using PMI.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
>
>Subject: Re: PC-DOS 3.3
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:20:52 -0800
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>On 12/12/2005 at 4:27 PM Jim Leonard wrote:
>
>>MS-DOS was officially end-of-lifed by MS so I don't see the harm. We
>>certainly
>>don't have a problem distributing obscure OSes, tape loaders, and CPM so
>>why
>>should DOS be any different?
>
>Well, there is a difference. MS-DOS/PC-DOS can still be run on modern
>machines--there's no argument that "the hardware to run it doesn't exist
>any more". And both firms that can claim copyright (good for 95 years) are
>still around. I'd hate to get a letter from a Microsoft suit saying "cease
>and desist--and pay us $250,000".
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't legally make copies and
>distribute an out-of-print literary work without permission, why is there a
>difference with software? Has anyone asked Microsoft or IBM if it would be
>okay? Or do we already know that the answer is going to be "no", so we
>might as well not ask and draw attention to things?
>
>Cheers,
>Chuck
Exactly! FYI: CP/M does still have a copyright in effect only the license
to use and distribute for NON_COMMERCIAL purposes has changed.
Thank you Tim Olmstead for persuing this.
The bottom like is yes, there is a lot of software that can be copied freely
for for hobbiest use but the copyright is still in effect and the license
that allows it is now suspended for whatever reasons.
Would MS do that with dos up to say 6.22? No idea.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software
> From: "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:42:54 -0500
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>I have boxed versions of Desqview/X 1.0 and 2.0 and they are fun to play
>around with on 386/486 machines. The bad part of DV/X is there are less
>native apps (can't think of any other then DV/X enabled DOS programs for
>BBS's) for it then OS/2.
>
>Windows 3.1 lives on with some hobbyists (me anyway) because of the Apps and
>hardware that was made for it. IF there are few native apps then the OS goes
>to obscurity very fast.
I still have my kits for Win3.1, win3.11 DOS5, DOS6.22, Norton desktop and
and useful software like Paradox4.5/dos, Wordperfect suite, Procom,
Norton commander and Norton utilities/dos and a carload of other stuff.
Most importantly a Laptop (color-486/66) and desktop 486/66 that run these.
Allison
Hi, it's been quite a while since I last posted to this list (about 4 1/2
years I believe) but it's good to see many familiar names still popping up.
Anyway, the last 4 years have seen some major uphevals in my life and I find
myself in the position of needing to get rid of pretty much my entire
collection of "classic" machines fairly quickly. A friend of mine did post a
similar message here on my behalf back in March, but, due to an unforseen
series of real world problems, I either lost contact with or wasn't able to
reply to people.
I'll be offering up this "junk" in batches as I sort through each afflicted
room to see what's in there, the first batch being as follows:
3Com "3Station" - 2 off
DEC PDP-11/53 (BA-23 Cabinet)
DEC MicroVAX II (BA-23 Cabinet)
DEC MicroVAX II (BA-123 Cabinet) - 2 off
DEC VAXConsole (Pro-350?)
HP LaserJet+
IBM AS/400 Model 9404 - with expansion cabinet (never gotten it to fire up)
IBM RS/6000 Model 520
IBM PC/RT - CAD system including 19" colour monitor, graphics "box" & more
Pr1me 2455 - c/w terminal & kbd, but no hard/tape drives (SCSI)
SGI Iris 4D/70 GT
Tandon Pac286(?) - c/w mono monitor, kbd, printer etc
In addition, I also have an unidentified 19" SGI monitor (manufactured by
Philips, in a cream case), a pile of assorted DEC manuals, two or three
boxes of assorted Q-Bus and Unibus boards (don't ask me what they are as
they're in storage and I don't have a list) and a full tower AT case with
PSU to go.
I'm not looking to sell this gear, I'd rather give it to people on this list
with the time and enthusiasm to do something with it. That said, considering
how much petrol money it cost me to collect, I'd certainly appreciate
donations any of the following:
SCSI hard drives (10Gb or larger, or IDE drives at a pinch)
Hauppauge Media MVPs
Rio Receivers (sometimes badged "Dell")
PCI DVB-T cards
PCI DVB-S cards
Pinnacle "Showcentre"s (fat chance)
"Classic" MP3 players
or the odd fiver if you feel that way inclined. :-)
All this equipment is located in Birmingham (UK) and has to be collected, I
do not have the means to deliver and it's far too heavy to even consider
posting (with the possible exception of the "3Stations").
As I said, I need to shift this stuff fairly quickly - as soon as humanly
possible really (this side of Christmas would be just perfect). The absolute
deadline will be sometime in Feb, anything that hasn't gone by then WILL go
in the nearest skip I can find - no matter how rare/desirable it may be.
Please contact me off-list if you're interested in any of this stuff.
Thanks.
TTFN - Pete.
_________________________________________________________________
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>
>Subject: Re: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions
> From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to>
> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:57:37 -0500
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>I am still not able to figure out why the FORTRAN 77
>subroutine has different timing when the destination
>address is moved from PAR0 to PAR1 under RT-11 under
>both E11 and a real PDP-11/73. Cache has been suggested,
>so I will attempt the calculation with a PDP-11/23
>which does not have any cache.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Jerome Fine
Cache is half the answer. The other half is when you hit the bus
on a cache miss two things have to happen. You have to do bus
transactions which are very slow compared to cache and you have to
refill the cache. IF there is any MMU action required
(pagein/pageou) you add that overhead as well.
Remember the PDP11 is 16 bits. Any addressing outside ~28kwords
is going to involve a MMU operation. That a lot of register
access and it's costly(in time), more so if you need to move
the Dmap in an I&D machine (11/73). The reason for that is those
actions lie inside the core OS and require system calls to process.
E11 is just being faithful to the core PDP11 so I'd expect similar
if not exact same behavour. You didn't say RTll SJ or FB.
Shame you can try that (in F77) on a VAX or PC wher 32bit address
space is the rule. I'd expect much different behavour..
Till your task is paged out. ;)
Allison
>
>Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned
> From: "Wolfe, Julian " <ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU>
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:34:16 -0600
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Hello!
>
>I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest
>(KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP
>and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+
>
>Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is
>NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time.
>
>Can anyone help me out?
>
>Thanks
>Julian
>
The part would ahve a 23-class part number for a DEC version with code in it.
I'll have to pull a board to read the part number and verify if DEC used 2716,
or 2764s for their part. My DOCs show the default configuration was for
DEC parts in the 2764 or the motorola 8k family. Also there are two differnt
rom set and only one (KDF11BF) does MSCP boot.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting!
> From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:10:56 +0000 (GMT)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>On Dec 12 2005, 18:01, Allison wrote:
>
>> uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A)
>> is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73.
>> And of course the uVAXII.
>
>11/73 doesn't need over-the-top and has no provision for it. As an
>11/73 it's supposed to be used with normal QBus memory, but all will
>work with PMI memory (a la 11/83, in fact they're the same board).
>
I did say 73B didn't I? There were two different J11 cards, I am using
the M8190 KDJ11-B which is Q22. However there is a later J11 that uses
the PMI memory. I have memory for that one but not the CPU.
I have every Qbus PDP-11 from the LSI-11/03 through the 11/73.
Here in the greater Maynard area we get to see more of the bits that DEC
sold. Then again I got the option during the great bleed to purchase my
underdesk systems for a token amount as we all left that facility. Many
others did as well.
Allison
