I have a Wilson Laboratories, Inc. MWX-1000S SMD Disk Analyzer that I'd
like to see go to someone that can use it for the benefit of the
Classiccmp community. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea if it works
and have no way to test it, though it came into my hands with the claim
that it worked. I'll send it for the cost of postage. It's in the
form-factor of a modest size suitcase and weighs about 18 lbs, near as I
can figure. Please contact me off list.
Ken
>
>Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update
> From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:04:22 -0600
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>>
>P&R is mostly sorting is my guess. However my designs view point for
>open source
>is being able to keep the computer system capable of bootstaping itself.
>Looking at the
>latest version of red-hat I find it hard to do any real development work
>as everything
>is becoming too interconnected with every thing else.
P&R is taking the available resources those being:
number of PINS on the package that are for input output or either.
Number of macrocells
Avalable number of "wires" in the routing array (like crosspoint switches)
The devices I'd worked with are two generations (or more) old and it was
hard to fully use the available cells or if you did you were hitting
the routing limits. However the number of possible terms are HUGE.
>PS. I like small computers -- I just use big ones like PC's to play games.
>12 to 18 bits to me is a nice sized machine.
I happen to like sizes that are multiples of 8 (8, 16 and 24) however
12bits are special to me.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update
> From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:26:04 -0600
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Allison wrote:
>
>>70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory.
>>Current is under 1ns.
>>
>>Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft
>>barrier is outside the chip.
>>
>>
>>
>The current CPU design barrier for me is the Beer Budget I have.
>This gets me 70 ns memory and 20 ns/logic cell programable devices
>and standard slow I/O devices. In 1982 I used a PDP-8/e so that
>is a speed I am looking at. 1985 an XT.
>Lets just say FPGA design is 1 generation slower than the latest
>techology. From what little I have seen of custom design as the
>designs shrink ( I still think in terms of 5 volt TTL ) layout rather
>than switching speed is what will slow you down.
Well on my less than beer budget (I'm cheap) The static 32k byte devices
I've pulled off of old 386 and 486 board are 25ns and below.
Now he typical 30pin simms are 70ns dynamic rams. The core for PDP-8e
generation was the limiting factor at 1.5uS or more than 20 times slower.
The FPGAs I was playing with are as fast as late 70s TTL so there is
no reason I cant do a faster PDP-8 with "old stuff". Then again the
PDP-8e was limited by the 1970s tech of core speed not logic speed
it could esily go faster if core could keep up. The mid 80s 6120
(Decmate II and III) CMOS pdp8 chip was faster too despite being
microprogramed and multiplxed bus.
However if your assumption that FPGA is one speed generation behind
current silicon that makes it still under 1ns/cell which is plenty fast.
Granted there is some speed penelty for nonoptimum routing.
People that have done PDP-8s in FPGAs easily exceed the basic 8e speeds
save for they don't seem to push them at all.
As to the 1982 XT, that was slow by then standards by a factor of not
less than 2. In 1982 the 8086/88 was up to 10mhz already.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update
> From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:03:34 -0400
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> wrote:
>
>> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.harhan.org> writes:
>>
>> Michael> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC
>> >> version?
>>
>> Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to
>> Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea.
>>
>> SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> paul
>>
>
>SIMH will run on a VAX, in fact :-).
>
>Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of
>PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple
>of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed
>to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than
>a 11/93.
>
>By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based
>emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications
>(despite their warts of running under a host OS...)
>
>I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a
>performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe.
>Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably
>eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the
>book.
>
>Tim.
Considering that 2901C (750ALU) was 100ns (1982 timeframe) I'd think
by now the latest FPGAs are easily able to beat that by a factor of
25 or more.
So I think that's on the low side. Without pipelining to any great
extent and the availability of far faster memory than the mid 80s.
I'd think 10x is shooting low.
Seriously the more you put on the chip the faster it will go as busses
are still working at ~1ns/ft and them chips are at best less than .2".
The cray XMP was the tour de force around those limits back in the
80s.
I'd think the real factor is that the VAX was CISC to the extreme and
the microVAX (320780 chip) was on the order of 1-2million transistor
equivilent gives one an idea of the task size though.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update
> From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:58:39 -0600
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>>Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based
>>emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of
>>years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then.
>>
The 750 was around .6 to .7 a 780 for the cpu however the mass storage
systems for the 780s were more elaborate and faster.
>The emulators run alot faster, but the problem is the 11 is still a
>commerical product
>so I don't think we will get better new hardware out.
>
>>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? An
>>intellectual exercise? Or will the FPGA version run an order of magnitude
>>faster than the original?
>>
>>
>I suspect about the same speed as PC's 15 years ago or 74Sxx speeds.
>The real speed limit on computers
>now days is the cache memory. A external bus depending on memory used
>is the factor.
>Most common memory is about 120 ns to 70 ns access time unless you want
>to use the latest
>chips.
70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory.
Current is under 1ns.
Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft
barrier is outside the chip.
Allison
>
>Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update
> From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org>
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:09:48 -0400 (EDT)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>> I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many
>> people want a vax?
>> Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode,
>> so a FPGA that
>> can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy.
>
>Did all VAX machines have microcode?
>
>William Donzelli
>aw288 at osfn.org
Far as I know, yes. For the 7xx series absolutely. There was limited rom
microcode to enable booting and diags but the bulk of it was loaded at boot.
Soft loaded microcode (ignoring emulated instructions) mostly disappeared
with the Microvax and later VAX on silicon.
Allison
...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay
Sorry this is so long, but it's worth a read in case you ever happen upon
an item being offered by this seller. Read this before you get burned.
So a couple weeks ago I asked one of my employees to go on eBay and find
an external power supply for this cute little Dell P4 system that I got
in without the P/S. He dutifully went onto eBay, found the most
reasonably priced item with a Buy It Now, and bought it for me.
Later, when I went to pay for the item, I noticed that the seller had
26000+ feedback total, with 1700 postive and 34 negative just in the past
month. If it were me, I would've avoided this seller like a foul odor in
the air, but my naive teenage employee doesn't know better.
So anyway, from past experience, I figured there was probably a 50/50
chance this would go well, because like, what are the odds that a wall
wart (more like a big slab) would be bad? So I went ahead and sent the
PayPal payment. A week later (yesterday) I receive my item. The first
thing I did before plugging it into my computer was check the voltages,
because even though the seller claimed it was "TESTED WORKING, NO DOA", I
didn't want to take the chance of this thing zapping the computer. So
what do you know, I get no voltage. Then I notice the LED is out. I try
another power cord but it's pretty plainly dead. Oh bother.
I called the seller this morning (before the generous 7 day "DOA warranty"
runs out) and get some lady that tells me someone will call me back.
Later in the morning I get an e-mail explaining their RMA procedure. So
now I'm being required to ship the item back to them on my dime.
I think the conclusion of this warning can be aptly made by simply posting
some of the negative feedback this seller has gotten in the past week
([-] means negative feedback, [N] means neutral):
[-] Won item, didn't have item, ordered, never received, recd full refund
4wks later - geb249 Oct-13-05 11:16 (5811227432)
[-] The computer doenst work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - adilsonmarin Oct-12-05 12:21
(5232544487)
Reply by bobsbid1: Windows you need to install windows, or better
yet get a mac:))
[N] no coment - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:02 (5809582719)
Reply by bobsbid1: seems a shame to neg him for a misspelled feedback oh
what the... heres your neg
[-] buy blinking book-ends here - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:01 (6803142818)
Reply by bobsbid1: get them while they are hot!! they wont last at
these prices remember you need 2
[-] DIDNT GET THE PRICE YOU WANTED SO THAT WHY YOU DIDNT SHIP? STAY AWAY
FRAUD.!!!! - thaiartcrafts_com Oct-11-05 16:05 (5811566861)
Reply by bobsbid1: we got a grand for a 50.00 item and he is mad
because we lost it?
[-] GEFORCE 4 TI 4200 DOSE?NT WORK NOT FUNCTIONAL - NOT DOA - BEWARE -
goodfriday Oct-11-05 14:48 (8703050567)
Reply by bobsbid1: his spell checker does'nt work either:) do you
think it was his kumputer?
Follow-up by goodfriday: There policy should have read -AS IS- 7yrs100% on
ebay you decide.
[N] Excellent selection & products, fast delivery, Poor customer service -
cdnbud Oct-07-05 08:32 (5219793883)
Reply by bobsbid1: This is a self sevice site would you mind picking on
yourself elsewhere?
[-] BUYERS BEWARE! Totally mis represented item and will not return. DO
NOT BUY! - bhickster2ir3m Oct-07-05 04:48 (5812863214)
Reply by bobsbid1: WARNING NON READERS! IT IS NOT TO LATE** STAY IN
SCHOOL**
And this is just within the LAST 7 DAYS.
Notice that he automatically leaves negative feedback for the buyer if the
buyer leaves him either negative or even NEUTRAL feedback.
Needless to say, I strenuously suggest you do NOT attempt to do business
with this lout. With all the revenues eBay generates from this junk
dealer, I doubt they'll do anything about him, which is why I felt
compelled to post a warning to the list. With all the business they do,
I figure at least one other person here might benefit from my experience.
As for me, I sent the seller an e-mail asking them to just refund my money
and be done with it. If that doesn't work, I'm just going to go straight
to PayPal with my complaint and try to get a straight refund. It'll be
more productive than trying to go through with the seller's absolutely
ridiculous RMA process.
The auction in question:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6807210038
You've been warned.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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Hello again,
It looks like I have found a workable FPGA solution for my project that
involves no Winblows and no GUI. It isn't 100% open source, but it IS
100% command line, which is most important to me. I didn't realise that
Xilinx apparently supports Linux in the free "webpack" version of its
tools, and this "webpack" supports Virtex II, which would be the
appropriate FPGA family for my project if going the Xilinx route.
I'm downloading the Linux version of the ISE 7.1 "webpack" right now.
When it finishes downloading, I'll see if I can make it do what I want,
which is to use the command line P&R tools as a back-end for Icarus
Verilog like shown in Icarus documentation, targeting Virtex II.
MS
I have a couple of 4116 DRAM's that I like to test.
My approach will be to put an ic socket in a ZX spectrum and just fire
it up with the DUT in the socket.
Speccie works -> DRAM chip OK
Speccie does not work -> DRAM chip dead.
Is this too simpleminded , or are there better ways to test 4116's ?
Jos
I
>
>Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply?
> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:38:24 +0100 (BST)
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
>>
>> I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from
>> console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is
>> dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861
>> power supply?
>
>I know DEC used some odd fans in some of their machines (e.g. the 35V
>75Hz ones in the 11/44 cabinet), but is there anything particularly odd
>about this one? Most of the time you can find something that will replace
>them.
>
>-tony
Dead plain nothing special.
Allison
