> What does '14 in a PRINT statement, in front of a quoted string, mean
> (eg in PRINT '14"SULU")? I wondered if it were something like PRINT
> TAB(14)"... but there are TAB()s elsewhere. A control character,
> perhaps? If cursor or screen control, are they octal or decimal (I'd
> guess decimal) and is there a table anywhere?
decimal.
The table in the back of the Access BASIC manual is excellent.
Another response to this thread (November) listed a URL.
Of interest to people pulling apart the HP as well as programmers:
My friends and I once noticed using Access functions (CHR$(7)?)
instead of the single quote ('7) actually took up more storage room.
There was a maximum line length of somewhere between 254 and 256.
Using the single quote (for control chars) allowed for much much longer lines.
So something is different in the tokenizing and it also explains why a
less readable format was used. Although you get used to it. :-)
~Zubla
Hi Robert,
Is it not too late for your offer about pdp11/73?
Regards,
Uri Adanin
AMR Medical Center LLC,
1065 Lake Cook Rd.,
Wheeling, IL 60090
w. 847-459-9441, ext. 2131
c. 847-691-6327
E-mail: uadanin(a)amrmc.com
I think that the 1976 reference may come from the following. Microsoft had
Stand-Alone Disk BASIC, which may have been available in 1976 (I don't have
release dates handy), used a file system that might have been the beginnings
of the FAT scheme.
Then, I found this reference in a June 1983 article written by Tim Paterson
called "An Inside look at MS-DOS". In that article, there's a sidebar called
"A Short History of MS-DOS" (some paragraphs deleted for brevity):
"...In May 1979, Seattle Computer made the first propotype of its 8086
microprocessor card for the S-100 bus. There were brief discussions with
Digital Research about using one of Seattle Computer's prototypes to aid in
developing CP/M-86, which was to be ready "soon."..."
The article continues:
"Microsoft had already started a strong 8086 software-development program.
The firm was ready to try the 8086 version of Stand-Alone Disk BASIC, which
is a version of its BASIC interpreter with a built-in operating system.
During the last two weeks of May 1979, this BASIC was made completely
functional using the hardware that Seattle Computer provided for Microsoft."
Continuing:
"Seattle Computer shipped its first 8086 cards in November 1979, with
Stand-Alone Disk BASIC as the only software to run on it. The months rolled
by, and CP/M-86 was nowhere in sight. Finally, in April 1980, Seattle
decided to create its own DOS."
And more:
"The first versions of the operating system, called QDOS 0.10, were shipped
in August 1980."
More still:
"In the last few days of 1980, a new version of the DOS was released, now
known as 86-DOS version 0.3. Seattle Computer passed this new version onto
Microsoft, which had bought the non-exclusive rights to market 86-DOS and
had one customer for it at the time."
"In April 1981, Seattle Computer Products released 86-DOS version 1.00,
which was very similar to the versions of MS-DOS that are widely distributed
today."
So, who invented the FAT filesystem we know today? Microsoft
(through Stand-Alone Disk BASIC)? Seattle Computer (through 86-DOS)?
To paraphrase Artie Johnson..."Very interesting".
Rich
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer
Festival
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: FAT file system now licensed by MS ?
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the
> rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing
> program for it, with obvious results.
>
> Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before*
> Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem
> to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so,
> by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ??
>
> --f (who runs FAT on his own PDP-11 OS ;-)
It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT
licensing website:
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp
...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good
reasons: 1) software patents were not allowed at the time that FAT was
implemented in MS-DOS, and 2) FAT was basically lifted from another OS.
I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to
fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Also, I highly
question the history they are promulgating. They claim they developed FAT
in 1976. That seems a bit early. I could be wrong.
Damn losers.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers
]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org
]
I know I bought a NEC 8201 in the fall of 1984, and as I
remember they had just hit the shelves. Subsequently I
bought 13 or 14 more for a special purpose use and kept them
in service through 1995...still have some of them.
Don Mitchell
Runtime Services
First message, second try. ?Sorry if I mess up.
> If anyone ever comes up with some real system tapes, please save them!
> The lack of "early" IBM software is really annoying (not only AS/400, but
> for the earlier S/3x and S/3 lines, and even the mainframe lines).
>
> William Donzelli
Even that early model had some sort of emulation or compatability modes
for S36 and S38.
While there may not be a Linux (or AIX) port, there was supposed to be
a way to run... NT? from inside some sort of AS400. ?Maybe post-CISC?
The AS400 was primarily for RPG and COBOL, but did have other languages.
In fact it had C, but I was never quite sure how a ported C program would
work with their batch-IO to terminals...
The batch/script/command language is very strong and fills several manuals.
Manuals! ?200?+ 3" manuals. ?But available on CD for PC or for AS400.
>From IBM of course.
Nothing at all wrong with having an AS400 reel tape drive...
That'd do it for me except for the lic cost. Then Token-ring to an 8228 to
a PC with a TR card and a nic.
There was a way to start subsystems beyond the OS, but you didn't want
to challenge a 9404 too much.
Other comm cards you might see could be one of V.35, X.21 or EIA (~RS232)
And of course twinaxial connections to the console, printers and CRTs.
Have fun.
~Zubla
Hello !
i'm trying to decode the disc structure of a HP7912 hard disk attached
to a HP 64000 uC System. build in 1985! yeaaah
I managed to copy the HP7912 sectors on a MO-diskc SCSI on series hp
9000 / 300.
i read in the MO disc image on a PC. now i have a 54MB image file.
has anybody some infos about structure and tables of the directory of
the HP64000 disc format ??
thanks peter
--
DEMUS DATENSYSTEME GmbH ? Steinbergstr. 24
D-30559 Hannover ? Germany
Tel +49-511-95448-0 ? Fax +49-511-95448-44
http://www.demus.de ? mailto:info@demus.de
I have a number of BreezeNet data/power modules. This is a two module set
that allows you to run both data and power over a CAT5 cable so that you
can power, say, a WAP in a weird location where there is no power for it.
It comes with a power supply that puts out 15V AC @ 1.8A (input =
100-240V). The power supply plugs into a "local" module with data in and
data/power out. You then plug in a CAT5 cable from data/power out to the
"remote" module. The remote module has a data port (which you plug your
WAP or remote router into) and a power out jack.
Very nifty if you need to bring power to a device that has none nearby
(like in a ceiling).
These are basically new in the box. I'm asking $5 each plus shipping.
Thanks to Lyle Bickley for helping me figure out what these things are :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
I think Hans summed it up quite well, but perhaps didn't go far enough with
his thought.
Hans Franke wrote:
>What pisses me of most is that they want licence for media if they
>are formated with FAT. Beside that this is even more a joke than
>the Rambus scam, it sets the stage that not only software (and the
>underlaying algorythm) is protected by a patend but also the data
>generated by this algorythm!
>Let's just continue the idea: Assumeing MS had a patent for some
>parts of Word, under the above circumstances, every document written
>using Word, stored on a media will be the same ... so does MS own
>what I write, because I'm using their programm?
So, if I happen to be the manufacturer of digital cameras, and I write a
program that rearranges the bits on a flash card that was formatted by a
microsoft operating system, and that operating system is fooled by my
arrangement of the bits, I have to pay microsoft?
Even worse is the manufacturer of media. Who is to say that the manufactured
is not using a microsoft operating system to format the media in the first
place. So now he has to pay a quarter of a US dollar for each piece of media
that he formats with his microsoft operating system.
When will this trickle down to charging the end users for each disk they
format, or for each document they create?
"Well, it's only the big manufacturers they are going after." Right?
"In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and
I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the
Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came
for me - and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemoller, Dachau, 1944
Quick! Somebody contact the press!
Oh, that's right, we're not supposed to talk to the press. ;-}
And besides, such a story in the press would probably just make microsoft
stock go UP!
Now that's a sick thought.
Mike.
> The drawing does look as though it is in series with a
> second winding.
Then it would seem to be being used to create a rotating
magnetic field. In this case too samll a value will lead
to a reduction in full speed torque and possible speed
variations, and too large a value will reduce the low
speed torque (i.e. when the motor is running up). However
having said that the value will be a compromise anyway and
+/- 20% either way shouldn't hurt enough to notice.
Lee.
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