>
> > And who the hell needs managers to code anyway? Pfah!
>
> You've never had to maintain code, have you?
>
> -spc (Let me tell you about hacker code ... it ain't pretty ... )
>
OK since MS is not likely to hand over their code. let's look at another
possibility that's not all that remote. Let's assume the LINUX overcomes
it's greatest weakness (consumer acceptance) and gets the lions share in the
OS market. In that situation who are the winners and who are the loosers?
Who would win and why?
Who would loose and why?
Would you be one of the winners or one of the loosers?
Steve Robertson
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
On 2001-03-04 classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <Jeffrey S. Sharp> said:
Hi, Jeffrey --
If you are new to the list, that makes two of us. ;-)
>I don't know everyone's perspective on this issue, and it would be
>good to hear some alternate viewpoints. Basically, I am against
>people giving classic computers in working condition to museums.
>Instead, I believe that they should donate or sell their machines
>to enthusiasts who will play with them and learn things.
Let me add my opinion to your comments.
Perhaps there's a proper place for museums and a place for learning.
Museums should ideally have the at least a few of the best preserved
specimens of chosen categories, especially the rarer categories, in
both working and nonworking condition: working order for preservation;
nonworking for learning. Of course, any of us should be allowed to
have private collections for learning or whatever else -- but not the
liberty to deliberately destroy history that could be beneficial to
mankind.
We should remember, too, that there's another category of classic
computer usage, and that's the use of many older systems for
charitable purposes, of which there is certainly an abundance.
Instead of mindlessly destroying "obsolete" machines, in many cases,
older machines still have plenty of serviceable life left in them
for those who may not be able to easily afford anything "modern",
even if only for the purpose of learning.
With respect to learning from classic machines, I believe that it's
vital for us to consider what has lasted and what is still useful
with "old technology". My own handful of classic computers consists
of my first computer, a Sharp PC 4502 portable, an IBM PC/XT, an
IBM PC/AT, an IBM PS/1, and a Tandy/Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 100,
most of which I consider to be keystone system designs leading to
the present day mass production of Personal Computers. In examining
the "lessons" of old computers, I think it's important to distinguish
between what's necessary and what's not, what's wasteful and what's not.
I consider -- even as you do -- that it's particularly important to
preserve many computers for learning purposes, and not just for
glass cases. The same is true for old software. My hope is that,
if old hardware and software is preserved with the proper respect
and care it deserves, more of the same could one day be duplicated
-- at least with the most important principles that they've taught us.
So far, I think the surface of this important process has only just
begun to be scratched.
Yes, my old machines are all in working condition, and, for the most
part, in original condition. I use them, learn from them, and cherish
them dearly.
Jerry... on his IBM PC/AT 5170 Model 339 | My laptop computer's a
***** 9600kbps/30MB HD/512k RAM/8 MHz | Tandy TRS-80 Model 100
Net-Tamer V 1.11.2X - Registered
>This is like buying a fridge, taking it home, and having the light globe
>continually blow, calling the manufacturer, and being told that "This is a
>common problem, we charge $25 for solutions, can I have your credit card
>number please?"
OK.. While the frige model is simplistic we can still draw some meaningful
analogies.
First let's look at the reasons that you might buy a particular model of
refrigerator. You probably bought it based on feature set, maintainability,
usability, performance, product familiarity, name brand recognition, because
it's company policy, just to name a few... There's certainly other reasons
but, you get the idea.
So dazzled by all the hype, you buy the WIN model and haul that sucker home.
Now this particular fridge is real popular with vendors and they bombard you
with all kinda things that you can add to make it bigger, better, faster,
larger capacity, more ice, and so on. As a matter of fact, there are
thousands of vendors and hundreds of thousands of different components for
your fridge and you can install them yourself in billions of different
combinations. There are very few restrictions to what you can install. You
don't need any special training, no certification, no tools, in most cases
you don't even need experience. Hey... You can install 4 different ice
makers from 4 different competitors and have them all work at the same time.
In fact there are 1700 different light bulbs that you can get for this
model.
So one day you go to the fridge to get a cold beer and notice the bulb is
not working... Damn defective refrigerator!
Who you gonna call?
What resonse would you expect under those conditions?
If I made the refrigerator, I'd tell you to put it back the way it was when
you got it and see if that fixes the problem. Which is exactly what most PC
manufactures do.
You want me to troubleshoot your fridge under these circumstances... Credit
card please :-)
Steve Robertson
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>('The DIR command
>on this computer doesn't print a directory, it's Delete I-nodes
>Recursively and will wipe the entire filesystem' would tell me NOT to
>type DIR under any circumstances!)
Are there any commands like that? That is, are there any exceedingly
mundane commands on some systems that have exceedingly jeopardous results
on other systems?
I used to define a lot of commands in DCL in my startup file that I commonly
used and named them with weird names. I have accidentally typed the same
command on a PC and ended up with unexpected results. After 5-10 years of
using the command on the VAX I could barely remember the actual DCL. I also
used nested command procedures.
$GETMRI
$DMPMRI
$COMPRESSMRI
$DECOMPRESSMRI
$CLEAN
My clean command deleted all files in the directory and removed any
subdirectories. I once typed clean when I was in one of my source code
directories. Lots of fast CTRL-C and slamming of keys trying to abort it.
We were all logged in with lots of privileges which can be a problem.
Mike
mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu
Joe,
That would be great. Just email me and let me know the details.
Arnie
arnoldlinder(a)yahoo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 11:03 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: HP-HIL keyboard
Arnie,
I don't thing there is such a thing as a PS-2 to HP-HIL adapter. But
I'll send you a keyboard and mouse for the cost of postage.
Joe
At 08:47 AM 3/7/01 -0500, you wrote:
>I just inherited a new toy. An HP 735 192MB ram (2) 1GB drives and 20 in
>monitor. I was all ready to play, but an important component is missing.
>Does anyone know where I can get a keyboard for this beast without giving
up
>my first born. I really like him. Or a cheap PS/2 to HP-HIL adapter would
>be even better.
>
>Arnie
>
has anyone got a spare lk401? The spacebar on mine is acting up, the return
spring doesn't work properly, and I'll get random spaces in the middle of
typing. Very annoying.
In a message dated 3/7/01 9:16:44 PM Central Standard Time,
rigdonj(a)intellistar.net writes:
<< Gene,
I'm not sure that I know what a L40SX is. Is that the laptop that IBM
used to make? If so I know where there's one at and I think it has docs
with it. If that's the same machine then I may be able to try out this one
and/or see what the docs say. >>
it's basically a pre-thinkpad thinkpad. It's tan with a monochrome display
and floppy drive on the right side. model type 8543 i think.
DB Young Team OS/2
antique computer collection, hot rod pinto, and more at:
http://www.nothingtodo.org
In a message dated 3/8/01 8:44:50 AM Central Standard Time,
rigdonj(a)intellistar.net writes:
<< After I got the XT/286 CMOS setup I tried to read the hard drive but it
turns out that the drive is bad. RATS! I was hoping to find software for
the STAG EPROM programmers still on it. That's the only reason that I
picked the machine up. Well, I'll save the floppy drives out of it and
pitch the rest of it. >>
are you sure the hard drive is bad? I've a 3270pc that posts a 1701 error but
if I let the machine idle for a short time until the hard drive warms up, it
then works fine. Or if you have a copy of spinrite, let that run on it.
That's saved a drive for me before.
Old computers, and strange other sights at:
www.nothingtodo.org
OK, my 2 cents on this one...
> As someone else here stated, perhaps people who lack the intellect
to
> be able use some random flavor of UNIX, VMS, etc. shouldn't be
using
> computers. That said, I believe that most computers users are not
> incapable of using *NIX, etc.; they're not lacking intellegence,
> they're just naieve when it comes to computers, and they would
> probably like *NIX, etc. once they began using it.
Absolutely. The problem is that today's culture is such that people expect
to just dive right in and be able to do something without actually knowing
anything about what it is they're doing. You don't get into a car, having
never driven in your life before, and head straight out onto the motorway.
Same as you wouldn't expect to be able to run a power station without
reading a few manuals first!
Don't get me wrong, I hate Microsoft as much as anyone else, but fair dues
to them for trying to bring computers to the masses. In my opinion they're
going about it in totally the wrong way though; don't throw together a lot
of buggy, bloated software the looks nice and on the surface is easy to use
- instead build a robust, logical product and provide good documentation on
how to use it. Expect your users to have to actually *learn* something in
order to harness its potential.
>> substance every time. If it weren't for them, Detroit would have
>> been a wasteland decades ago. They're what the US economy
survives
>> on.
>
> Well designed cars, now turned "classic," are, like classic
computers,
> vanishing.
>
> Regarding Detroit: After renting a 2001 Mercury Grand Marquis for
> nearly two months, I will say that it's not as nice a car as my
1972
> Mercury Montego MX Broughm - despite many nice modern features
like
> dome lights that dim as they go out, however, it's still a much
nicer
> car than any of the little Japanese cars and most other imports
that
> I've seen.
Yep. My Triumph turns 30 next year, and it's so much nicer than any modern
car. A car is there to get you from A to B in a reasonable amount of time
and comfort - and I'll add that it should look nice, but it would still do
its job even if it didn't. You don't need lights that fade rather than just
go out, electrically adjustable mirrors, heated windscreen washer jets and
all the other garbage that people pile into new vehicles these days.
I'd also argue that you don't need airbags and side impact bars and all the
rest of it - I mean, human beings are not immortal (and never will be) and
if they're going to chuck themselves around the country at high speed then
what do they expect!?
It's the same with the fridge example that someone else came up with. A
fridge is there to keep cool food; that's its job and it doesn't need to do
anything else.
I suppose given peoples' desire for the latest-and-greatest thing which is
more feature-packed than ever before - and better than what their next door
neighbour has - one of two things will happen:
a) people will gradually see sense and start to buy products according to
how functional they are.*
b) people will continue to buy according to unnecessary features and
marketing hype.
I don't think case a) is too likely, at least not for many years - but maybe
as far as the computer inductry is concerned we're seeing the start of that
with the recent downturn in .com investment? And if case b) holds out then
there's nothing we can do to change things anyway - just let it take its
course and stop worrying about it! :-)
* I'm not saying we should all buy things which look like big, dull, grey
boxes :) But a product can be functional as well as reliable,
cost-effective, pleasing on the eye etc. - current trend seems to be to
ignore function over all the other things. I believe that's only a recent
thing (last hundred years or so) that's come about with increase in global
communication and wider markets - presumably because if company X can make a
product that looks nicer than company Y's offering - regardless of how well
it performs - they will typically make more money and therefore survive.
Hopefully it'll come round full circle eventually and people will start
taking some pride in the things that they produce again.
Anyway, enough off-topicness for one day... and it was probably way more
than a 2 cents opinion. And I probably made no sense either. :-)
cheers
Jules
On March 7, Billy D'Augustine wrote:
> If it wasn't Microsoft, it would be someone else, and we'd be bashing on
> them right now.
*Some people* would be bashing on them right now. But I think most of
us would bash only if the Someone Else in question had the
commonly-criticized attributes of microsoft:
- truly *bad* (though commonly used) products
- wholly, blatantly dishonest marketing
- near-criminal business practices
-Dave McGuire
