Well finally got all of the stuff off the van and into storage, plus
picked up some other goodies at the thrift's in the last couple days.
Here the short list minus items not 10 years old or older.
1. Apple RGB monitor model A9M0308
2. Computereyes Video Digitizer B/W for the Mac
3. Box full Apple cards for the Apple II series.
4. Box of early Mac mice and cables
5. HP Thinkjet model 2225D
6. Kodak DataShow in box cat # 809-3346
7. TI Silent 700 Data Terminal with the adapter not tested yet.
8. HP Apollo model 715/50
9. IBM 3196 Display Station Problem Solving Guide
10. Another HP 9144 16 Track model 9144A
11. HPJet Direct cart
12. Epson (HX20) mod for 3M and renamed Myocare Plus Programmer model
6800 with a strange cable made by LEMO.
13. DiskDrive Exerciser by Magnetic Peripherals with the following
numbers on it; TB-118A, PN 77833135E, Series code 02. No power supply
with it and it looks to have a strange connector. Anyone know about
this unit ?
Again that's the short list due ages of other items, so it turned out to
be a good week for collecting.
John Keys
>Actually last time I checked, you could only *order* that machine, not
>buy one, as they didn't/don't exist yet (still debugging the prototype).
>And it's not an IMSAI 8080 by a long shot, it's a completely different
>machine stuck in a familiar-looking box. So it doesn't address the
>original poster's point of building a better-than-1979 machine using
>1979 components.
Amen!
>- Backplane busses could have been done a lot more carefully, e.g.
> differential signal pairs, or at the very least O.C. with terminators
> at both ends (worked well for the Unibus).
Actually the S100 was cleaned up a bit and would run nicely at 8mb/s
for split or 16mb/s for unified word mode.
But multibus and STDbus were already better standards.
>- Doing fancy timing (e.g. RAS-CAS) using RC delays, one-shots, analog
delay
> lines, lots of gates in series etc. was a Bad Idea. Using a few
flip-flops
> clocked by a fast xtal clock might require an extra chip or two, but
once
> you get it working it will keep on working.
The better boards did that, alone with 4layer etch. Dram and two layers
was at best problematic.
>- SCSI-1/SCSI-2, IDE, and probably other supposedly "modern" interfaces
> could have been done with 1979 parts. At the time, the expense of
giving
> each peripheral its own CPU (or microcontroller at least) would have
been
> prohibitive, but if money were no object it would have been nice to
have
> some more open standards catch on, since the market was pretty
fragmented
> for no good reason. Floppies were absolute hell in this regard too.
Typical system with a HD in the 79-81 timeframe liekly had two CPUs
one for the HD alone! Teletek, Konan for example. There wer floppy
cards with local cpu too to further unburden the main cpu.
>- Things might have been more stable if microcomputers had separated the
> ideas of "CPU bus" and "peripheral bus" earlier on. For the longest
time,
> the peripheral bus was always just a buffered version of the CPU bus,
depends on the bus std. Multibus and STDbus for example.
> which led to lots of timing problems and incompatibilities when you
> changed to a different or faster CPU. But having something that's
easy
> to interface and has simple timing, like what the ISA bus became
(after
> having the same problem for a while), would have been a good thing, as
ISA was multibus with broken interrupts and no bus ack handshake, same
timing and interface otherwise. More interesting formfactor though.
Allison
> Based on what the current computer industry knows about building
computers,
> would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using the
> same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available?
>
> I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could with
what
> they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could do
it
> better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved enough to
> do it better now, using the same chips, etc.?
You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg
of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?)
processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an
excellent "old" new computer.
-dq
>Even better.. Today you could use one of the modern chips (pentium) to
emulate
>the Z80, probably at unheard of speeds, with full access to all the
internal
>registers (after all the pentium would be keeping those registers in
memory
>somewhere..)
You could and then you have one of the Z80 emulators.
>Using original parts we may not be able to make a better computer than
then, but
>using modern parts, perhaps we can make it smaller and faster, even
using a Z80
>memory is denser (and cheaper) today than then, right? <imho>
using a standard Z84C010 (cmos 10mhz) and common cache rams I could
easily do a z80 1mb 10mhz machine. It's not hard. Use a Z180S00 and
33mhz
is possible. With cheap, dense fast static memory most of the old
designs
get real simple and can go faster. The best example is a proto I've
build using
a Z84C50 (z80/10mhz with clock + wait state management, 1k ram) in a
clone
of the amproLB using static ram (eliminates 15 DIPS) making is a fairly
bare
board. It runs at 8mhz due to limits in the SIO and CTC parts I had. I
wanted
it to run the same boot and BIOS so I used what I had.
If I were to do the latest and greatest I'd go with Z380 as it will run
Z80 native
and make the IO a z180 slave, then the only limits would eb the how fast
can
the Z380 go (20mhz is common part and it executes Z80 instructions in
about
half the clocks).
Allison
>
>Ernest wrote:
>
>> Based on what the current computer industry knows about building
computers,
>> would it be possible to build a better Z80 based computer today, using
the
>> same chips that the builders in, say, 1979 had available?
>>
>> I heard someone say that the manufacturers did the best they could
with what
>> they had to work with "back then," and I started to wonder if we could
do it
>> better today. Has our understanding of how it all works improved
enough to
>> do it better now, using the same chips, etc.?
>>
>> Just curious,
>>
>> Ernest
>
Can anyone in the UK help this guy out?
Reply-to: dh8987mary3(a)netscapeonline.co.uk
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:46:50 -0700
From: DAVID HOLDSWORTH <dh8987mary3(a)netscapeonline.co.uk>
Subject: VCF Feedback!
i would like to ask if any one in the uk could donate any old computers to
my small colection.as i aam dissabled and i love old pc.s computers of any
kind .i also collect old radios dating back to 1945 especially valved
radios working or not.please help if you can thankss my phone no is 01493
300955 . uk
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com>
To: 'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org' <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: DD disks and HD drives (was: Where can I find...)
>> I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives
>> are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them
>> jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this
>> mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives.
^^^^^^^^^^ I repeat for the
impaired 96 TPI.
>
>Does setting that jumper cause them to write double-tracks,
NO.
>then (as ISTR that the HD drives wrote tracks that were
>half-width, and someone used to sell a software package
Yes, thats the ppoint of using 96TPI drives... to get more tracks.
>that wrote an HD-width track, stepped the head, then
>wrote an adjacent HD-width track to create pseudo-DD
>tracks)?
You can but, the reliability of the read data sucks to be blunt.
I said that you ccan do this in an earlier post if you needed
some special project hack to get you by. I don't as a good 48tpi
drive does a far better job and swapping it is no big deal.
I used 5.25 96tpi two sided double density for one reason easy to get
and use storage space. That mode does 720 or 782k depening on
the formatting were an older 48tpi drive will do 360k. Where 1.2mb
used funky media, data rates and all that are not easily found on
NON-PC systems.
Back in the old days using DD on a 96tpi drive was called QD.
>Hey, precisely what jumper is that?
I ave five different versions of the FD55-GF drives and they are all
different. So I did a lot of guessing and tried them until it worked.
A manual would have helped. I also ahve a few FD55Fs (also
96tpi DD two sided without ability to do the oddball 1.2mb format).
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com>
To: 'classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org' <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: Building a better "old" computer
>You can buy a brand-spanking-new IMSAI 8080 that has 1 meg
>of bank-switched static RAM and a 20mHz Z-80 (actually Z-280?)
>processor for under US$1000. I'd say that qualifies for an
>excellent "old" new computer.
First Z280 didn't need bank switch as it had a 24bit MMU. Second if
it has Z280 production would be hard as Zilong endof lifed it some 6
years ago.
Likely is Z180 or Z380.
Allison
> Well you left out all the caveats.
>
> I do it all the time, no problem. Key thing is while the drives
> are HD capable (TEAC FD55GFV) I happen to have them
> jumpered as required to properly run DD mode. In this
> mode they are plain DD, DS 96 TP! drives.
Does setting that jumper cause them to write double-tracks,
then (as ISTR that the HD drives wrote tracks that were
half-width, and someone used to sell a software package
that wrote an HD-width track, stepped the head, then
wrote an adjacent HD-width track to create pseudo-DD
tracks)?
Hey, precisely what jumper is that?
-doug q
>
>A woman called the Canon help desk with a problem with her printer. The
tech asked her if she was "running it under Windows." The woman responded,
"No, my desk is next to the door. But that's a good point. The man sitting
in the cubicle next to me is under a window, and his is working fine."
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Tech Support: "OK Bob, let's press the control and escape keys at the same
time. That brings up a task list in the middle of the screen. Now type the
letter 'P' to bring up the Program Manager."
>Customer: "I don't have a 'P'."
>Tech Support: "On your keyboard, Bob."
>Customer: "What do you mean?"
>Tech Support: "'P' on your keyboard, Bob."
>Customer: "I'm not going to do that!"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Overheard in a computer shop:
>Customer: "I'd like a mouse mat, please."
>Salesperson: "Certainly sir, we've got a large variety."
>Customer: "But will they be compatible with my computer?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>I once received a fax with a note on the bottom to fax the document back
to the sender when I was finished with it, because he needed to keep it.
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Customer in computer shop: "Can you copy the Internet onto this disk for me?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>I work for a local ISP. Frequently we receive phone calls that start
something like this:
>Customer: "Hi. Is this the Internet?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Customer: "So that'll get me connected to the Internet, right?"
>Tech Support: "Yeah."
>Customer: "And that's the latest version of the Internet, right?"
>Tech Support: "Uhh...uh...uh...yeah."
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Tech Support: "All right...now double-click on the File Manager icon."
>Customer: "That's why I hate this Windows - because of the icons - I'm a
Protestant, and I don't believe in icons."
>Tech Support: "Well, that's just an industry term sir. I don't believe it
was meant to -" Customer: "I don't care about any 'Industry Terms'. I don't
believe in icons."
>Tech Support: "Well...why don't you click on the 'little picture' of a
filing cabinet...is 'little picture' OK?"
>Customer: [click]
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Customer: "My computer crashed!"
>Tech Support: "It crashed?"
>Customer: "Yeah, it won't let me play my game."
>Tech Support: "All right, hit Control-Alt-Delete to reboot."
>Customer: "No, it didn't crash - it crashed."
>Tech Support: "Huh?"
>Customer: "I crashed my game. That's what I said before. I crashed my
spaceship and now it doesn't work."
>Tech Support: "Click on 'File,' then 'New Game.'"
>Customer: [pause]: "Wow! How'd you learn how to do that?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Got a call from a woman said that her laser printer was having problems:
the bottom half of her printed sheets were coming out blurry. It seemed
strange that the printer was smearing only the bottom half. I walked her
through the basics, then went over and printed out a test sheet. It printed
fine. I asked her to print a sheet, so she sent a job to the printer. As
the paper started coming out, she yanked it out and showed it to me. I told
her to wait until the paper came out on its own. Problem solved.
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>I had been doing Tech Support for Hewlett-Packard's DeskJet division for
about a month when I had a customer call with a problem I just couldn't
solve. She could not print yellow. All the other colors would print fine,
which truly baffled me because the only true colors are cyan, magenta, and
yellow. For instance, green is a combination of cyan and yellow, but green
>printed fine. Every color of the rainbow printed fine except for yellow. I
had the customer change ink cartridges. I had the customer delete and
reinstall the drivers. Nothing worked. I asked my coworkers for help; they
offered no new ideas. After over two hours of troubleshooting, I was about
to tell the customer to send the printer in to us for repair when she asked
>quietly, "Should I try printing on a piece of white paper instead of this
yellow paper?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>A man attempting to set up his new printer called the printer's tech
support number, complaining about the error message: "Can't find the
printer." On the phone, the man said he even held the printer up in front
of the screen, but the computer still couldn't find it.
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>And another user was all confused about why the cursor always moved in the
opposite direction from the movement of the mouse. She also complained that
the buttons were difficult to depress. She was very embarrassed when we
asked her to rotate the mouse so the tail pointed away from her.
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Customer: "Hello? I'm trying to dial in. I installed the software okay,
and it dialed fine. I could hear that. Then I could hear the two computers
connecting. But then the sound all stopped, so I picked up the phone to see
if they were still connected, and I got the message, 'No carrier,' on my
screen. What's wrong?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>An unfailingly polite lady called to ask for help with a Windows
installation that had gone terribly wrong.
>Customer: "I brought my Windows disks from work to install them on my home
computer." Training stresses that we are "not the Software Police," so I
let the little act of piracy slide.
>Tech Support: "Umm-hmm. What happened?"
>Customer: "As I put each disk in it turns out they weren't initialized.
>Tech Support: "Do you remember the message exactly, ma'am?"
>Customer: (proudly) "I wrote it down. 'This is not a Macintosh disk. Would
you like to initialize it?"
>Tech Support: "Er, what happened next?"
>Customer: "After they were initialized, all the disks appeared to be
blank. And now I brought them back to work, and I can't read them in the A:
drive; the PC wants to format them. And this is our only set of Windows
disks for the whole office. Did I do something wrong?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>For a computer programming class, I sat directly across from someone, and
our computers were facing away from each other. A few minutes into the
class, she got up to leave the room. I reached between our computers and
switched the inputs for the keyboards. She came back and started typing
and immediately got a distressed look on her face. She called the tutor
over and explained that no matter what she typed, nothing would happen. The
tutor tried everything. By this time I was hiding behind my monitor and
quaking red-faced. I typed, "Leave me alone! They both jumped back as this
appeared on their screen. "What the..." the tutor said. I typed, "I said
leave me alone!" The kid got real upset. "I didn't do anything to it, I
swear!" It was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud. The
conversation between them and HAL 2000 went on for an amazing five minutes.
>
>Me: "Don't touch me!"
>Her: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hit your keys that hard."
>Me: "Who do you think you are anyway?!" Etc.
>
>Finally, I couldn't contain myself any longer, and fell out of my chair
laughing. After they had realized what I had done, they both turned beet
red. Funny, I never got more than a C- in that class.
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>This guy calls in to complain that he gets an "Access Denied" message
every time he logs in. It turned out he was typing his username and
password in capital letters.
>Tech Support: "Ok, let's try once more, but use lower case letters."
>Customer: "Uh, I only have capital letters on my keyboard."
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>Email from a friend: "CanYouFixTheSpaceBarOnMyKeyboard?"
>GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS GENIUS
>
>My friend was on duty in the main lab on a quiet afternoon. He noticed a
young woman sitting in front of one of the workstations with her arms
crossed across her chest, staring at the screen. After about 15 minutes he
noticed That she was still in the same position, only now she was
impatiently tapping her foot. He asked if she needed help and she replied:
"It's about time! I pressed the F1 button over twenty minutes ago!"
>
